Hannibal...

[ick_of_pick]

Kind of a wierd question, but was hannibal African, as in black, or white/middle eastern? I've seen many different versions of the facts and was just wondering what you all think...

Ick

[Red Harvest]

Try this link. It has an interesting discussion of the matter.

upi discussion of Denzel Washington as Hannibal (http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20020716-074042-7469r)

[Red Harvest]

Here is a Carthaginian coin with his supposed likeness. Looks like a typical Mediterranean face to me. The nose suggests primarily caucasian.

Hannibal Coin (http://college.hmco.com/history/west/mosaic/chapter3/image139.html)

[Tamur]

Eek, yes, this is a hornet's nest amongst Ancient Near East historians and Classicists. A majority favour the idea that Hannibal was Greek-white in the same way that Cleopatra was, but there are those who very fiercely disagree.

The disagree-ers are labeled as 'afrocentrists' while those who fiercely counterattack them are labeled 'eurocentrists'.

It gets very nasty on both sides. I just like reading Latin and Greek, and staying well out of that briar patch!

[Nelson]

Denzel Washington as Hannibal makes as much sense as Michael Caine as Cetswayo.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

He was of typical Southern European look, kinda like a sicilian but not as Italianesque, if you know what i mean.

[Colovion]

arg! Vin Deisel as Hannibal?

"Back off Rome, my Elephants got TWO BOTTLES!!!" Pssssht

[Steppe Merc]

Hmm... the generals all look really kind of annoying. I think that CA doesn't like us long haired people... as the only units with any real hair at all (past ears), were so called barbarians. Guess most of the units will be bald...

[Longshanks]

Ugh...

Both are bad casting IMO.

While Denzel Washington is one of the best actors in Hollywood, the Hannibal of history was of Phoenician ancestry. He mostly would have looked more like an Arab or Jew than a sub-Saharan African. Ancient coins back up that view.

Vin Deisel may look more like Hannibal, but he's not a good actor. Is the movie he's slated to star in more of a cheesy unhistoric action movie along the lines of Scorpion King?

Too bad Omar Sharif is an old fart now. Can we go back in time and get the young Omar to play Hannibal? ~D

[Cloudkill]

Here is a Carthaginian coin with his supposed likeness. Looks like a typical Mediterranean face to me. The nose suggests primarily caucasian.

Hannibal Coin (http://college.hmco.com/history/west/mosaic/chapter3/image139.html)
Yea, that dude definately looks European (but throughly not Roman).

[afrit]

Yea, that dude definately looks European (but throughly not Roman).

Eh, the curly hair is not that (white) European .

I agree with the poster who suggested he would look more like an Arab, being of Phoenician ancestry. Which is probably not that different from ancient greek and roman (dark hair, brown eyes,olive skin.. kind of like me ~;) )

Afrit

[1dread1lahll]

Not White, not Black,.... Cartage was founded by Tyre, its people are Lebanonese (that little country just north of Israel), Thus Hannibal's genetic roots were middle-eastern,....Tunisia, the country where-in the ruins of Carthage lay, is today is nearly all of black African desent, but this is the result of the Barbary slave trade which florished between the 1600's and 1800's. In Hannibal's day the conutry was populated largely by Berbers, Bedowin, Lybians,... and Hannibals people, the Leanonese. Later immergrants included Italians (Romans), Vandals, and Arabs.

[ick_of_pick]

Yeah, i figured he would probably have the generic mediterannean/middle-eastern look...ah well, thanks for your help all...

ick

[Jango Fett]

omar sharif would PWN as hannibal.. but yea hes tooooooo old ~:santa:
please not vin diesel the guy only has one tone of voice ~:wacko:

[Marshal Murat]

The upper levels of Carthaginian aristocracy were snobs, and had a distinct Caucasian/Greek/Phonecian look to them, unlike the lower classes.

[1dread1lahll]

Hannibal was at the age of 28 when his army arrived on the Po, (after crossing the Alps). He campained in Italy for 17 years. He took his own life on the shores of the Black Sea at age 60.

[econ21]

He may be the wrong colour for the part, but I think Denzel Washington would make a fine Hannibal. Watching him recently in "Man on Fire", I was greatly impressed by his acting skills (although the 10 year old kid in the film also gave him a run for his money!). The real Hannibal is sufficiently lost in time for me not to bother too much about matching his appearance. Good actors should be able to transcend some physical differences between themselves and their subjects. Would certainly be better than Kevin Costner as Robin Hood, John Wayne as a Centurion etc. Vin Diesel might look the part better, but I fear he does not have enough range to make you suspend disbelief.

[Bob the Insane]

My only gripe is that Denzel Washington is not sufficiently Australian to play a notable historical general... ~;)

I mean, look at the mess Troy got into using americans.... ~:joker:

[ah_dut]

My only gripe is that Denzel Washington is not sufficiently Australian to play a notable historical general... ~;)

I mean, look at the mess Troy got into using americans.... ~:joker:

okay....
BTW i don't care what hannibal looks like if he can act and vin diesiel (sp?) can't to save his life

[Silencer]

what happened to hanibal, after his defeat against Rome?

[CBR]

A bit of info here.

http://www.barca.fsnet.co.uk/hannibal-barca.htm


CBR

[Louis VI the Fat]

I find this whole 'black or white' Carthage and, especially, black/white Egypt discussion really insulting. (The discussion in general, not the one here)

From the early nineties it became a matter of debate in American historiography whether or not these societies were white or black. A lot of people argued that traditional history was too eurocentric and that many of the ancestors of western civilisation were in fact 'black'. It was considered political correct to portray Cleopatra as black, and to bring forward the 'Africaness' of Egypt and Carthage. Some even spoke of a 'black Athens'.

What's so insulting about this, and plain ignorant, is that world history is abused and rewritten because of racial preoccupations by the PC movement in the USA. There are, in fact, more racial categories than the two main ones in the US. Carthage is neither black nor white in a modern American sense.

They looked, well, Tunesian. Hannibal, of Lebanese origin with probably a fair bit of indiginous Tunisian blood, was a bit more Middle-eastern looking than most present day Tunisians. As a rule of thumb though, the ancient civilisations appear to have been etnically quite close to the peoples who now inhabit the mediterranean shores. Despite many waves of migration, most territories have not witnessed massed extermination or replacement of peoples.

It is a fallacy to speak of Carthage in a 'black or white?' sense. Some of them are fair skinned, some dark skinned. But that has nothing to do with the etnicity of most Americans. A fair and a dark skinned Tunesian resemble each other much more closely than either of the two with an American with a same tone of colour.

[Colovion]

Carthage is neither black nor white in a modern American sense.

Most of us here know this, we know he's from Lebanon originally and that he's pretty Arabesque in color - but a full on black man is not period correct from what we know of the Ancient Lebanese.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I know you all know that, Colovion. And I'm happy that we all seem to agree on this one.

I was bashing the PC movement. A line of thought which has led to a full black man being casted as Hannibal - out of deliberate ignorance. They refuse to let cold fact get in the way of welcome emancipatory myth and will thrash anybody who dares to state the obvious.

The obvious being that to cast a black man (or a blue eyed one, for that matter) is a political decision, and not a historical one.

[Barkhorn1x]

I was bashing the PC movement. A line of thought which has led to a full black man being casted as Hannibal - out of deliberate ignorance. They refuse to let cold fact get in the way of welcome emancipatory myth and will thrash anybody who dares to state the obvious.

Indeed - here is an interesting link;

http://skepdic.com/afrocent.html

Barkhorn.

[Red Harvest]

From what I've managed to find so far, my impression is still that Hannibal was more Lebanese/Mediterranean looking than black (or lily white.) I'm not sure how Vin would do in the role from an acting stand point. He is enough of a "mutt" that he could probably "physically" portray Hannibal in a believable sense, but I have lots of questions about other aspects of his performance. And it really depends on the script and what the director/producer are trying to make. I would hope for something of an epic sweep (Spartacus, Gladiator, Braveheart, etc.)

Denzel on the other hand is a great actor, but I'm not sure his voice would be one I would choose as a casting fit for Hannibal. Seems to me you want someone that could look and sound as if he was from the elite of Carthaginian society (well educated) while at the same time incredibly charismatic and inspiring to the average soldier, and able to walk amongst them comfortably. Denzel is probably a bit darker than I would want to cast Hannibal--but that really doesn't bother me too much. I'm not sure what Denzel is missing in the part, I can't put my finger on it at the moment. He often plays a well educated, and/or charismatic person, or a military officer, but there is something about those portrayals that say, "not quite Hannibal" to me. Perhaps it is the maverick, lone hold-out nature of the roles I've seen him in. I see Hannibal as someone that would unite his officers strongly behind him. There is another matter...if you make Hannibal, you must also put together a reasonable "family" of his brothers Hasdrubal and Mago who will also be prominent. Obviously, if Denzel is one then the other two will need to be of rather dark complexion and not look entirely unlike their on screen brother. There is also the father Hamilcar who would be prominent early in the film.

I am having a hard time coming up with someone who is a "natural" for the part--let alone the rest of the family. Just don't cast Travolta...ugghhhh.

[Kraxis]

Well, it is obvious that Denzel will do a better job than Vin. But I won't allow myself to think that Vin can't act well. So far he hasn't done all too good, but don't forget that his roles have so far been something like Rambo. And remember that Stallone has managed to put out a number well acted movies. The way I remember Vin from Saving Private Ryan was a thoroughly positive one, it is not enough to say he is good, but I think it is enough to say we should give him a chance.

The problem with the colour of the main character, in this case Hannibal, can be significantly more than that character himself. Like Red Harvest said, the other main characters have to be like Hannibal, they too were of his social class. But worse yet is that it fairly well accepted that the lower classes were darker than the rich merchant and landholder class of Carthage. That means the army in general should be at least as dark as Hannibal. The result would be an afro-invasion of the quite white Rome... See my drift? That doesn't pose all too well.

Well, I hope that the casters of the movie won't fall into the pit of the black and white armies. It would ruin such a great story.

[Colovion]

IF Denzel gets cast as Hannibal I'll end up saying: "well Hannibal wasn't originally Black... but he was great in the role regardless"

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Andy garcia wouldn't be bad in hte role, but he looks too Italian. What about that guy from Robin Hood, prince of theives?

[Red Harvest]

The problem with the colour of the main character, in this case Hannibal, can be significantly more than that character himself. Like Red Harvest said, the other main characters have to be like Hannibal, they too were of his social class. But worse yet is that it fairly well accepted that the lower classes were darker than the rich merchant and landholder class of Carthage. That means the army in general should be at least as dark as Hannibal. The result would be an afro-invasion of the quite white Rome... See my drift? That doesn't pose all too well.

Well, I hope that the casters of the movie won't fall into the pit of the black and white armies. It would ruin such a great story.

That is a very good point. They could get around it a bit by having a bit more of a melange of races for the soldiers/arimies of Hannibal, but it does pose some issues. Probably need to pick a general "ethnicity" for the Numidians, and another for the "african infantry" as well as the spanish, gauls, and various italians on both sides. I don't think you would want to cast it as black vs. white because that is not what I've heard in the history. I have not read anything that suggests it was a race war.

On a positive note, this provides opportunities for using a variety of actors of various colors and backgrounds to represent the consortium of troops under Hannibal and the nature of Carthage. Properly done this could be an eye opener for the general public, and be rather exotic, yet reasonably historic. Hmm, I could even see having the commanders all speaking a common language (as they most likely did), but the common troops conversing in a number of different languages...

I would hate to see this done as "all caucasian" with a couple of negroes on elephants.

Andy Garcia had crossed my mind as well. I even considered Antonio Banderas even though I'm not really a fan (and I'm not sure how well he could carry such a serious part.)

[Kaiser of Arabia]

lemme think...

I know, Wes Bentley!

[1dread1lahll]

Be careful of getting your history from hollywood; If you are not you will appear increadable ignorant to those who know better. For this up-comming movie a person of mid-eastern desent would be more appropreate. Also actors of different ages. After the end of the 'secound' Pumic war Hannibal settled in Carthage (still unbroken by Rome), He was reported to be 'energetic' in has activities to rebuild the strength of Carthage. Political enemies in Carthage traveled to Rome in 195 bc an denounced him (they said he was getting ready for another war), The Romans decided they had to take him as a hostage, but he discovered their intent and took flight to Antiochus, where he was employed as an advisor untill Antiochus was defeated by Rome. He then made his way to Bythynia on the shores of the Black Sea, where he took his own like to avoid capture; this took place 19 years after the end of the 'Secound' Pumic War.

[ick_of_pick]

I agree with Hannibal probably being of Middle Eastern descent, but I don't think the Romans were quite "white" either, and niether were most Italians until the mass Norman and Saxon settlements during the middle ages. Anyone ever seen that ancient painting of the two Romans Scholars? Or any ancient Roman paintings for that matter, they look like your average mediterraneans, dark hair, eyes and skin. Hell they look more Greek then Brad Pitt...he was a joke!

Ick

[Steppe Merc]

Anyone ever seen that ancient painting of the two Romans Scholars? Or any ancient Roman paintings for that matter, they look like your average mediterraneans, dark hair, eyes and skin. Hell they look more Greek then Brad Pitt...he was a joke!
It's sometimes hard to tell with art... a lot of the paintings I've seen they were really pale, but I'm not quite sure when they were made. But then, people didn't go walking around naked like they did in all those paintings either.

[Odysseus]

Well, the Barca clan was mediterean, so I'd have to go with Hannibal being white. That's my best guess.

[Basileus]

I remember i read that they used a few thousand marocans soldiers for O.Stones Alexander heh so you never know with film companys.

[Marshal Murat]

Hannibal was definatley very Lebanese, not "white" or "black" in any sense.
Actually most blacks in North Africa were imported by Colonial powers, (Portugal)

North Africa is and was Middle Eastern, along with the Barca Aristocracy, they were the rich aristocracy, that never mingled with the lesser peoples. They also may have kept the blood line "pure" as interbreeding, or marrying only upper class peoples.

So the person that should play Hannibal, is someone Lebanese, the person from the Matrix? Forgot his name.

Also Italians would have a white/tan skin color and the Saxons never made it that far south, and the Normans only inhabited southern Italy. The Romans would have a white from the Gallic decent, and tan from the sun, and southern cultures.

[ShadesPanther]

You could possiblyhave someone Italian or Greek or maybe even spanish do it. Andy Garcia is mentioned as he would look the part, Antonio Banderas...maybe.

[lars573]

The basic problem with casting Hannibal in any movies is that there are no middle eastern looking people who could play the role. That is a big enough star to carry the movie. I can think of 2 actors who would look the part of Hannibal, Tony Shalhoub from monk who is Lebanese and Alexander Siddig from star trek DS9. Both of them can act half-was decently and look middle eastern. But given the popular belief that the carthaginians were black, Denziel will probably play Hannibal if they ever make a movie. Also John Wayne as a legionary is not so unbelieveable as John Wayne as the Genghis Khan Temugin (SP).

[DisruptorX]

. But given the popular belief that the carthaginians were black,.

Huh? Since when was this popular belief? I have never heard or read that anywhere outside of this thread. Surely the PC gestapo hasn't succesfully rewritten history to the point where people actually believe such nonsense?

Here are the facts: skin colour was not an issue untill the rise of the slave trade in the 16th century. It is being simplistic to lable someone from the past as "black" or "white" when they themselves would not have considered such triviality. Then of course, there is the fact that the cartheginians were not African natives and not "black". Never let the facts get in the way of a good argument, though.

On the topic of Egypt. The Egyptians were not "black" either, and they aren't today, either, unless I'm mistaken. Leave it to the hordes of brainless PC drones to come up with such nonsense as: "Africa=Black. Europe=white" But the again, PC nutjobs consider race to be the most important aspect of a person and can't actually judge people in any other manner.

[Encaitar]

According to imdb.com, Vin Diesel has signed on as the lead in "Hannibal".

[Spino]

The basic problem with casting Hannibal in any movies is that there are no middle eastern looking people who could play the role. That is a big enough star to carry the movie. I can think of 2 actors who would look the part of Hannibal, Tony Shalhoub from monk who is Lebanese and Alexander Siddig from star trek DS9. Both of them can act half-was decently and look middle eastern. But given the popular belief that the carthaginians were black, Denziel will probably play Hannibal if they ever make a movie. Also John Wayne as a legionary is not so unbelieveable as John Wayne as the Genghis Khan Temugin (SP).

Uh, Lars573, you're forgetting one thing. There are a disproportionate number of Jewish-American actors working in Hollyweird at any given moment. Therefore casting an actor of semitic ancestry who is a) somewhat swarthy & b) of middle eastern descent shouldn't be that difficult. I would take it one step further and say that someone of Sephardic Jewish ancestry would probably be a wiser choice than someone of Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry. It's been my observation that the former are usually darker and swarthier than the latter, and rarely do they possess light colored hair or green or blue eyes.

Just my 2 cents...

[Don Corleone]

I find this whole discussion of whether Hannibal was 'black' or 'white' ridiculous. First of all, those two terms mean many different things to people. It would probably surprise most 'white' people to learn that until the 1950s, most 'white' purists didn't consider anyone from southern europe or eastern europe white. That's right, Lithuanians wouldn't be considered 'white' by the group that came up with the concept of whiteness. Irish would qualify, except that Irish weren't considered human. No, I'm not kidding, go read some history books of the timeframe.

Second, there's this ridiculous notion in America that you're either white or you're black. One drop of 'black blood' makes you black. So, people like Cameron Diaz don't qualify as 'white' either.

Does anyone see where I'm heading with this? Due to immigration patterns, warfare and intermarriage, there is absolutely no meaning to 'race' categorizations, especially something so crude and inaccurate as 'white' and 'black'. There are some isolated island communities that haven't intermingled, but they're about the only true 'racial' groups left.

Now, you add into all of this the discussion about Denzel Washington and things really break down. The craft of acting is about your ability to make your audience believe you are the character whom you claim to be. Not that you are, not that you're of the same genetic stock, just that people believe you to be who you say are for the two hours. In my opinion, very very few people practice this craft better then Denzel Washington and I think if he wanted to play Beowulf by the end of the film I'd believe Beowulf must have been a black man.

Now, to say Hannibal must have looked semitic (arabic or Jewish) brings up one small problem... Phoenicians weren't Semitic. There were a lot of semitic seafarers, and semitic empires in the neighborhood at that time (Assyrians) even in ancient days, and they probably arrived and married in Carthage, but how could you know even what they looked like.

Finally, somebody mentioned Greeks, as though they're a racial group. Well, again, big problem. There's about 3 or 4 different groups of people who mixed in what's now Greece to produce the Hellenes (only two I can think of off the top of my head is the Dorians and the Mycenans).

My point in all of this? This question, was Hannibal white or black....it's akin to asking if St. Peter was a Republican or a Democrat (and PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD DON'T START)

[ick_of_pick]

Eh, I agree with you on most points there, even though I did start this whole topic. But I'm pretty sure the Phoenicians were Semetic, they spoke the same language and used the same alphabet (Aramaic) as the Assyrians, Babylonians, and Jews (though Hebrew is slightly more unique) and Hannibal is a VERY common Assyrian name, so it would make sense that the phoenicians were semetic. An interesting fact is that Aramaic is the root of Greek, and therefore Latin, and thats where we get the word Phonetics, from Phoenician, and "Poeni infantry" is simply the first half of the word "phoenician" without the "h".

Ick

[Don Corleone]

Fair enough. And I wasn't complaining about the topic in the first place. That wasn't what I couldn't understand. What I was decrying was the way it devolved into "he was white", "no, he was black", "no, he was white and so Denzel Washington can't play him".

I'm sure what I said was offensive to some, but I really didn't mean it that way. I was trying, in my bull-in-a-chinashop way, to point out to everyone that the terms 'white' and 'black' are completely and utterly meaningless in any context but popular culture within the United States. I'm surprised they still even put "African-american, Caucasian" and so forth on racial quota questionaires on stuff.

I didn't think the Phoenicians were Semitic, but I'm perfectly willilng to accept that I could be wrong on that one. My reasoning behind that was 1) I thought the were descended from the same group of people as the Sumerians, who definitely weren't Semitic and 2) I thought the reason the Jews wouldn't accept them, in the old Testament times, was because they weren't Semitic. Again, I could be way off base on all of that.

[Suppiluliumas]

It's a shame that Yule Brenner can't be resurrected for one last hurrah.

[noramis]

Someone mention Lebanon?

I never knew Hannibal was from Lebanese / Phonecian origin.

[discovery1]

Someone mention Lebanon?

I never knew Hannibal was from Lebanese / Phonecian origin.

Carthage was founded by Phonecian colonists.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Barca, sounds kinda roman...

I think the carthaginian general (from RTW) looks kinda like russle crowe, hollywood

[Daevyll]

Leaving aside the white/black thing, I disagree with the assumption Hannibal was tall, muscular and goodlooking.

Cast Danny Devito for the role I say.

[Longshanks]

Leaving aside the white/black thing, I disagree with the assumption Hannibal was tall, muscular and goodlooking.


He was a career soldier, and one noted for sharing the hardships of his troops, so he probably was in fairly good shape. His images on coins & such also do not suggest someone who was obese. I agree though that Hannibal wasn't necessarily handsome, particularly after he lost an eye while on campaign in Italy.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

I say cast Mike Meyers to play him, he can look like anything

[biguth dickuth]

An interesting fact is that Aramaic is the root of Greek, and therefore Latin...
Are you perhaps refering to the greek alphabet?
Yes, there are signs that the greek alphabet may have been partly influenced by the phoenician but this opinion is doubted by many. There isn't enough evidence to prove this or the opposite theory with certainty.

On the other hand, if you are refering to the greek language itself then i would tell you that this is not correct.
The greek (and the latin) language belong to a different linguistic "family" than the aramaic and the other semetic languages. Greek and latin are of hindo-european origin, unlike aramaic and arabic and hebrew who belong to a semetic linguistic group.
Of course this does not prohibit semetic influences in the greek language and vice-versa but aramaic is certainly NOT the root of greek and latin.

[biguth dickuth]

Regarding Hannibal, i also agree that dealing with the whole subject of racial differences and skin-colour variations (there can be many...) is generaly idiotic or even suspect at some occasions. I include in this even the cases when a certain "colour" is chosen due to reasons of political correctness.

Of course, for the sake of historical accuracy, an actor with middle eastern looks would probably be closer to the "real thing" than other choices, but still i wouldn't mind seeing an actor with other looks playing Hannibal as long as he can be CONVINCING.
Now, if Vin Diesel has the acting qualities to make me think: "well, he could have been like this" is something doubtful and still left to be seen...

[ick_of_pick]

Sorry, I should have been more specific, I ment the written alphabet, not the spoken language. Anyway, the Latin Alphabet is as such: A B C D etc... The Greek is Alpha, Beta, Gamma, Delta... and the Aramaic is Allep, Bet, Gammal, Dallat, or literally translated: Ox, house, camel, door etc... the latin version of writing actually looks more like the orignial cuniform. If you turn "A" upsidedown, you get what looks like the head of an ox, "B" is the shape of a series of houses, C is the camels hump and so on. The only real semtic words the greeks borrowed were for unfamiliar things, mostly foods that did not grow in the area, Oranges for example, in both Aramaic and Greek Orange translates to "portugal." When the Arabs invaded Spain in the 7th century, they found the western coast covered with orange tree orchards and named it Portugal!

Ick

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

The basic problem with casting Hannibal in any movies is that there are no middle eastern looking people who could play the role. That is a big enough star to carry the movie. I can think of 2 actors who would look the part of Hannibal, Tony Shalhoub from monk who is Lebanese and Alexander Siddig from star trek DS9. Both of them can act half-was decently and look middle eastern. But given the popular belief that the carthaginians were black, Denziel will probably play Hannibal if they ever make a movie.
With Hollywood thinking and the American public's ignorance and conscience problems (slavery), ANYTHING related to Africa is linked with sub-saharian ethnicities. :rolleyes:

That beeing said, rest assured, Hannibal was of Semitic ascendancy and probably quite pure of blood, because of being a nobleman. Casting Denzel (although a fantastic actor) would be ridiculous!!! Any Caucasian of Mediterranean ascendency (dark hair and of somewhat tanned skin) would fill the bill much better...



Also John Wayne as a legionary is not so unbelieveable as John Wayne as the Genghis Khan Temugin (SP).
They're both horrible choises. Although the first is less bad. You must remember that the vast majority of Romans (specially early period) had dark hair, dark eyes and small stature (averaging 1,65m=5'). IIRC, John Wayne had light brown hair, blue eyes and about 6' of height.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

According to imdb.com, Vin Diesel has signed on as the lead in "Hannibal".
You got to be joking!!! :laugh4: That "missing link" in Human Evolution? Talk about bad choises... :rolleyes:

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

I find this whole discussion of whether Hannibal was 'black' or 'white' ridiculous. First of all, those two terms mean many different things to people. It would probably surprise most 'white' people to learn that until the 1950s, most 'white' purists didn't consider anyone from southern europe or eastern europe white. That's right, Lithuanians wouldn't be considered 'white' by the group that came up with the concept of whiteness. Irish would qualify, except that Irish weren't considered human. No, I'm not kidding, go read some history books of the timeframe.

Second, there's this ridiculous notion in America that you're either white or you're black. One drop of 'black blood' makes you black. So, people like Cameron Diaz don't qualify as 'white' either.

Does anyone see where I'm heading with this? Due to immigration patterns, warfare and intermarriage, there is absolutely no meaning to 'race' categorizations, especially something so crude and inaccurate as 'white' and 'black'. There are some isolated island communities that haven't intermingled, but they're about the only true 'racial' groups left.

Now, you add into all of this the discussion about Denzel Washington and things really break down. The craft of acting is about your ability to make your audience believe you are the character whom you claim to be. Not that you are, not that you're of the same genetic stock, just that people believe you to be who you say are for the two hours. In my opinion, very very few people practice this craft better then Denzel Washington and I think if he wanted to play Beowulf by the end of the film I'd believe Beowulf must have been a black man.

Now, to say Hannibal must have looked semitic (arabic or Jewish) brings up one small problem... Phoenicians weren't Semitic. There were a lot of semitic seafarers, and semitic empires in the neighborhood at that time (Assyrians) even in ancient days, and they probably arrived and married in Carthage, but how could you know even what they looked like.

Finally, somebody mentioned Greeks, as though they're a racial group. Well, again, big problem. There's about 3 or 4 different groups of people who mixed in what's now Greece to produce the Hellenes (only two I can think of off the top of my head is the Dorians and the Mycenans).

My point in all of this? This question, was Hannibal white or black....it's akin to asking if St. Peter was a Republican or a Democrat (and PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD DON'T START)
Correct in every point, except that Denzel isn't fit for the job. Historical films have to take into consideration the populations of those days and that means ethnicity too.

[Aurelian]

I think there is only one actor who could truly pull off Hannibal... and that is Ali G (also known as Sascha Baron Cohen). "Ali G." is vaguely Mediterranean AND vaguely black. He's already good at speaking unintelligable languages. While Cohen is a very white Jew, he can play anything. Hell, he could even play him as a gay Kazakh.

Besides, it's pretty clear that both movies are going to be comedies. Vin Diesel? Fah. I foresee Hannibal, muscles rippling, riding an elephant into battle and single-handedly slaughtering hundreds of Romans who have all conveniently left their shields at home. Very historical.

While Denzel is a good actor, I'm sure his talents can be better used elsewhere. Here's my idea for a movie: "Denzel Washington IS George Washington!" That would probably be more entertaining.

"Scipio is a omosapiun wiv a small dong, geeza" (Courtesy of the Ali G. Translator).

[biguth dickuth]

Sorry, I should have been more specific, I ment the written alphabet, not the spoken language. Anyway, the Latin Alphabet is as such: A B C D etc... The Greek is Alpha, Beta, Gamma, Delta... and the Aramaic is Allep, Bet, Gammal, Dallat, or literally translated: Ox, house, camel, door etc... the latin version of writing actually looks more like the orignial cuniform. If you turn "A" upsidedown, you get what looks like the head of an ox, "B" is the shape of a series of houses, C is the camels hump and so on. The only real semtic words the greeks borrowed were for unfamiliar things, mostly foods that did not grow in the area, Oranges for example, in both Aramaic and Greek Orange translates to "portugal." When the Arabs invaded Spain in the 7th century, they found the western coast covered with orange tree orchards and named it Portugal!

Ick
Since you're talking about the alphabet i suppose we're in agreement!
It is not entirely clear if the aramaic alphabet is actually the root of the greek and the latin one or if all three of them evolved into what we know through a series of mutual influence and exchange of characteristics. We have to keep in mind that the mediteranean is a sea where sea-faring dates back to very old times and all the peoples inhabiting it's shores were in contact for thousands of years. It is inevitable to think that all of these civilisations "borrowed" and "lent" elements of their own (especially cultural ones) from and to each other.

And about Portugal, i have to admit i didn't know the origin of its name till now. Thanks for a very interesting piece of information!
In fact, the greek name for orange is "portokali". The two words really seem to have the same root with just a change of an "o" to a "u" and a "k" to a "g".
Really, i'm curious, how is orange in arabic or aramaic?

EDIT: Of course, the fact that the names of the letters, so similar in greek and aramaic, actually mean something in aramaic while, at the same time, they mean nothing in particular in greek, seems to support your opinion that the aramaic alphabet preceded the greek and the latin one, so you are probably right.
Besides, some older greek alphabets, like the ones used in some texts (written on clay or stone) dating to the minoan crete are actually hieroglyphics. Therefore, it seems possible that the greeks used the aramaic aphabet as a basis of creating a new, more simple written code.

[ick_of_pick]

Oranges...My knowledge of the Arabic dialect is limited, but I have studied, and can fluently speak ancient aramaic, and and the word orange is pronounced: "portoqual" switching the Greek "k" sound for more of a gutteral "q" sound, which is common in middle eastern languages. As for the evolution of the Greek alphabet, I think It's WAY better then its archaic aramaic predecesor. It's simpler, and more complete, but not as pretty to look at :)

Ick

[biguth dickuth]

Oranges...My knowledge of the Arabic dialect is limited, but I have studied, and can fluently speak ancient aramaic, and and the word orange is pronounced: "portoqual" switching the Greek "k" sound for more of a gutteral "q" sound, which is common in middle eastern languages. As for the evolution of the Greek alphabet, I think It's WAY better then its archaic aramaic predecesor. It's simpler, and more complete, but not as pretty to look at :)

Ick
Thanks! :bow:
In greek alphabet, the way it was written in the ancient times, the letters had very few curves and consisted mainly of straight lines and corners. I suppose this was so because they used to carve the words on wood or stone (at least in earlier times, before pergamene and papyrus became common as writing surfaces) and carving lines is always easier than carving curves.
The modern greek alphabet has, however, plenty of curves! ~;)
Unfortunately, i haven't seen much of the aramaic alphabet and i can't compare it with the greek one, in aesthetical terms at least.

[ick_of_pick]

The phoenician letters are a cross between greek and arabic, not quite curved, not quite straight. If I had time now I would post a picture of the alphabet...

Ick

[AlexanderSextus]

Honestly i think it is false to say that Hannibal (or cleopatra for that matter) was black, or white.

I think it makes the most sense to say that he (or she) probably was MIXED. Of course the both of them look white on the coins, especially cleo, being that she had a greek father, and a mother who was part Greek, part Iranian and part Egyptian.

Ancient Egyptians may not be as dark as Nubians, Ethiopians or Nigerians, but I think it is a fallacy to state that they have no black african in them at all. The Egyptians themselves, and the Greeks as well, seem to support the idea that egypt was originally settled by people from farther south. The early egyptian dynasties were probably a lot darker than the later ones, which would have ended up being mixed with all kinds of people. That is not to say that they were as dark as Nubians.

They were probably very very white looking but still not white, and not "middle eastern" or "meditteranean" but basically what could be called "mulatto" (a word that I am not a big fan of). It was not easy for black africans to cross the sahara into north africa, but it did happen sometimes, and those people would have conceivably mixed with the populations of north africa.

[Sarmatian]

And the winner of this year's Thread Necrophilia award is... (looks in the envelope) ... AlexanderSextus!

[AlexanderSextus]

:grin3:YAY! lol.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Wow...did they already have an internetz back in 2004?

[Sarmatian]

Wow...did they already have an internetz back in 2004?

They did. There are some posts from you. Oh, it was so interesting to read through them, young, unspoiled and inexperienced Louis...

a smartass even back then :laugh4:

[Louis VI the Fat]

They did. There are some posts from you. Oh, it was so interesting to read through them, young, unspoiled and inexperienced Louis...

a smartass even back then :laugh4: What the...?


That pompous piss can't possibly be me, can it? Please tell me it isn't so. ~:mecry:

[Strike For The South]

The whole problem with this debate is framing it in the American concept of "race" in the first place

[Riedquat]

Curiosity kill my little brain! What happened with that film after all, who was the protagonist? Or people were talking about Hannibal The Conqueror (2011)? A film supposedly (http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal_the_conqueror) protagonized and directed by the same Vin Diesel? :inquisitive:

[AlexanderSextus]

The whole problem with this debate is framing it in the American concept of "race" in the first place

Exactly. If you asked me whether Hannibal was black or white i'd say "that depends on what you think is black and what you think is white." If one drop of black blood makes you black, then Hannibal is probably black. (probably way more than one drop), If you are going solely by his actual skin color, Hannibal is not black.

The thing a lot of people forget is that arbitrary categories like "black" and "white" did not exist at all back then.

[Sarmatian]

Yes. American concept of race, not alcohol, is the root of all problems... I just wish we had someone to explain it properly to us. You know, eloquently, but in simple terms, like only a Frenchman could

[Kahotep]

Sorry for the thread necro, but as a student of biological anthropology, I find discussions on ancient people's biological relationships to be fascinating even if they're ethnopolitically sensitive.

The skeletal analyses I have read about pre-Islamic Northwest Africans have found that they were a pretty heterogeneous population, with some showing tropical African affinities, others tending more towards Europeans (remember that Iberia is just a short strait away), and still others being somewhere inbetween (i.e. "mulatto"). However, since the Carthaginians were Phoenician settlers from the Levant, they probably would have looked more Southwest Asian than African.

As for the ancient Egyptians, I could write a lengthy article citing a mountain of archaeological and anthropological evidence showing that at least the population who founded Egyptian civilization originated further south and were a dark-skinned people related to tropical Northeast Africans (e.g. Sudanese, Ethiopians, Eritreans, and Somalis), but over time gained Southwest Asian and European affinities, particularly late in Egyptian history. In fact, I will probably do so in a couple of days when I have more time on my hands.

[Kagemusha]

Sounds interesting.I am looking forward to your article.