I found a political flaw...

[ick_of_pick]

Though generally more accurate then its medieval predcessor, the devs still made left out some very important information. We probably all know the major and minor factions, but somehow, assyria, bablyon and palmyra were all left out, all of which were independent states with a government seperate from either rome or parthia, but niether are included as major or minor factions...kinda wierd that they would include the "dacians" but not the worlds first christian political faction?

ick

[Colovion]

they'll get modded in undoubtedly - I can't wait for Rome XL

[The_Emperor]

It remains to be seen what they have in terms of non-playable factions.

That map over at TWC didn't exactly look official, as such i will not trust it.

[Papewaio]

Not a flaw... it is room for an expansion $

:saint:

[Stuie]

Though generally more accurate then its medieval predcessor, the devs still made left out some very important information. We probably all know the major and minor factions, but somehow, assyria, bablyon and palmyra were all left out, all of which were independent states with a government seperate from either rome or parthia, but niether are included as major or minor factions...kinda wierd that they would include the "dacians" but not the worlds first christian political faction?

ick

Palmyra wasn't really an "independent state" of any consequence during the time period of the game. Its rise to prominence occurred under the Empire in the 2nd and 3rd centuries CE.

The Assyrian Empire was conquered by outside forces and ceased to exist around 612BCE, well before the time period of the game.

Babylonia was also conquered and absorbed by the Persian Empire around 539BCE, again well before the time period of the game.

The Dacians, on the other hand, became a major power along the Danube by around 100BCE. Here's some interesting stuff, all of which took place during the time period covered by the game:


Burebista became Dacia’s king around 60 BC and brought Dacia to the military and political attention of Rome. Burebista conquered surrounding peoples, while threatening the Danubian and Black Sea territories. Rome recognized the threat, and Caesar wanted to march on Dacia; however, both he and Burebista were assassinated in 44 BC. Even though the Dacian kingdom fell apart after Burebista’s death, Rome was still worried about its strong military. Augustus thought he had the Dacians contained but he was mistaken. The Dacians raided parts of Romania and Moesia as the warrior Decebalus took leadership of Dacia some time between 65 and 86 BC. Decebalus tried to restore the unity of the people and rebuild the military but he failed: Trajan began his battles in March 101 and finished in AD 106 declaring Dacia a province of the Roman Empire.
(link: http://www.usd.edu/~clehmann/pir/dacia.htm)

[ick_of_pick]

I agree that the Dacians were a power to be reckoned with, and that palmyra was just a single city, and I might have been wrong about babylon (my source for that was quite shady) but I am almost certain that after the Babylonians, Medes and Sythians overthrough Assyria, they re-orgainzed as a christian state after Jesus's death and were ruled by a Nestorian (first organized christian church) patriarch not a king, here is a list of thier names from 35 AD to about 900 ad: *("Mar" is short for "Marshimu" which is the Aramaic equivilant of the Greek word "patriarch")

Mar Thoma Shilkha, Saint Thomas c.35
1 Mar Tulmay (St. Bartholomew the Apostle)
2 Mar Addai, St. Thaddeus the Apostle
3 Mar Agai
4 Mar Mari
5 Mar Abris
6 Mar Abraham I
7 Mar Yacob I
8 Mar Ahha
9 Mar Shahioupa
vacant
10 Mar Papa bar Gaggai
11 Mar Shimun Bar Sabba'e
12 Mar Shalidoste
13 Mar Bar Bashmin
vacant
14 Mar Toumarsa
15 Mar Qaioma d.399
16 Mar Issac 399-c.410
17 Mar Ahha c.410-415
18 Mar Yab-Alaha I 415-420
19 Mar Maana 420
20 Mar Frabokht 420-421
21 Mar Dadisho I 421-456
[edit]
Nestorian Patriarchs
22 Mar Babwahi 457-484
23 Mar Aqaq-Acace 484-496
24 Mar Babai I 497-503
25 Mar Shila 503-c.520
26 Mar Narsai Elisha c.520-c.535
27 Mar Paul I c.535-c.540
28 Mar Aba I c.540-552
29 Mar Joseph I 552-566
30 Mar Ezecbiel 566-581
31 Mar Isho-Yab I 581-596
32 Mar Sabrisho I 596-604
33 Mar Gregorius I 604-607
vacant
34 Mar Isho-Yab II 628-644
35 Mar Emme 644-647
36 Mar Isho-Yab III 649-660
37 Mar Guiwarguis I 661-680
38 Mar Yohannan I Bar Marta 680-682
vacant
39 Mar Hnan-Isho I 685-700
vacant
40 Mar Sliwa Zkha 714-728
vacant
41 Mar Pethion 731-740
42 Mar Aba 741-751
43 Mar Sorine 752
44 Mar Yacob II 754-773
45 Mar Hnan-Isho II 774-780
46 Mar Timothee I 780-c.825
47 Mar Isho Ben Noun c.825-828
48 Mar Guiwarguis II 828-832
49 Mar Sabrisho II 832-836
50 Mar Abraham II 837-850

These leaders had control over several cities in the northern mesopotamian region making them very influencial in the affairs of the armenians, Romans, Byzantines and various persian dynasties until Islam overran the area in the 700's.

Ick

[hundurinn]

It would be much better to just make a new game that would have those ancient empires. At the timeperoid when the games happens those empires were gone or very weak.

[Steppe Merc]

Yeah, they left out a lot. Ever heard of the Sarmatians for goodness sakes, CA? ~:rolleyes:

[Stuie]

....I am almost certain that after the Babylonians, Medes and Sythians overthrough Assyria, they re-orgainzed as a christian state after Jesus's death.....

Again, outside of the time period covered by the game (270BCE - 14CE).

[son of spam]

Damn the game is that short? I thought it might cover all of Roman history up till the fall of rome. Oh well, like Pape said maybe it'll be in an exapansion.

[Stuie]

Damn the game is that short? I thought it might cover all of Roman history up till the fall of rome. Oh well, like Pape said maybe it'll be in an exapansion.

Remember the turns are six months, so that's almost 600 turns. Plenty of time for conquering. And yes, I'm sure there will be an expansion. I know some people think that expansions are bad, and developers should give everything away for free, but let's face it - they have to make a living. VI completely changed MTW in my opinion, so it's not like CA makes crappy expansions.

[Sjakihata]

And MI certainly DID change shogun as well ~:(

[Cloudkill]

Though generally more accurate then its medieval predcessor, the devs still made left out some very important information. We probably all know the major and minor factions, but somehow, assyria, bablyon and palmyra were all left out, all of which were independent states with a government seperate from either rome or parthia, but niether are included as major or minor factions...kinda wierd that they would include the "dacians" but not the worlds first christian political faction?

ickErm, how could a Christian faction exist if the game only lasts until the time of the death of Augustus, when Christ died during the rule of his successor, Tiberius?

[ick_of_pick]

You have to be pretty organized to conduct a mass conversion of an entire culutre to christianity, and the Assyrians did have a new capital after nineveh and harran fell: Carchemish, so they were an organized society, though they primarily served as vassal states to either Rome or Persia, similar to Armenia. Though they diddnt convert to christianity until 35 AD, that doesnt mean that they diddn't exist until that point. Also, 14 AD isnt the end of the game, just the end of the Roman senate, you can keep playing if you want...

ick

PS check out this map: http://www.hyperhistory.com/online_n2/images_n2/roman_emp.gif

[afrit]

I thought Palmyra was included in the game. After all why would they call the area around Tadmor "Regnum Palmyrae" on the map?? I thought it was a minor or rebel faction.

Please correct if I'm wrong.

Afrit

[Patricius]

Given that the Parthian king of kings had kings as vassals it would require a very powerful justification to include Assyria or Babylon. He had some eighteen kings as vassals. Within his own empire there were the equivalent of feudal barons who themselves were highly autonomous. Unless CA revise the game between now and the release Parthia will be a unitary kingdom in the game. Unless they made rebels those kings will not exist on the map. Were those cities greater in standing than those eighteen kings?

Seleucid cities were similarly autonomous with their own treasuries and coinage. The same could even be said of Roman cities until Caligula or thereabouts when civic coinage disappeared.

Palmyra was significant enough for Marcus Antonius to loot it in 41 BC. That said, it was barely of even regional significance. It was a prosperous trading town. Its astonishing zenith in the second and third centuries AD was a long way off.

CA are obviously only including those factions were of more than local significance.

Obviously I would prefer the Europa Universalis method of making every faction, however insignificant, playable. CA have chosen otherwise, sadly.

[Colovion]

You have to be pretty organized to conduct a mass conversion of an entire culutre to christianity, and the Assyrians did have a new capital after nineveh and harran fell: Carchemish, so they were an organized society, though they primarily served as vassal states to either Rome or Persia, similar to Armenia. Though they diddnt convert to christianity until 35 AD, that doesnt mean that they diddn't exist until that point. Also, 14 AD isnt the end of the game, just the end of the Roman senate, you can keep playing if you want...

ick

PS check out this map: http://www.hyperhistory.com/online_n2/images_n2/roman_emp.gif


Wait a second.

How did they convert to Christianity in 35AD? Jesus died very close to that date - seeing as he was 33 or so at his death. Even given a couple years, that still means that at best they had maybe 5 or so years to convert? The disciples had barely overcome their grief of losing their teacher let alone converting entire cultures.

[ick_of_pick]

yeah, it is kinda wierd, but most European and Middle Eastern sources say that 35 AD is the approximate date of assyrian conversion...who knows what the discples did after Jesus was killed, and though this sort of thing is important, it is taking attention away from my main point that the Assyrians were an organized autonomous society with an accepted leader and should probably be a minor faction in the game, along with palmyra.

Ick