Just for Laughs - the "Time" Magazine "Review"

[Barkhorn1x]

This is so funny it is sad;

Veni, Vidi, Vici — Virtually
By CHRIS TAYLOR

Monday, Sep. 06, 2004
Armchair generals rejoice — Rome: Total War (Activision, $50) is scheduled to be released later this month for the PC. In this sequel to Shogun: Total War and Medieval: Total War, you play a would-be Caesar, doing the Senate's bidding by commanding dozens of legions in massive, real-time battles. Will you catapult flaming pigs into besieged cities as the Romans did? Or will you flee? Each of your enemies has its own peculiar units, like the Carthaginian elephants or the German barbarians' terrifying Screeching Women. Do well and you just might have enough strength to turn on the Senate and take control of Rome itself. So realistic are the battle graphics that the History Channel is now showing a series of re-enactments, called Decisive Battles, using nothing but the Rome software. Crossing the Rubicon has never been this much fun. --Chris Taylor

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101040906-689472,00.html

Talk about the triumph of marketing over substance! The only details that get mentioned are the crappy ones that we all loath.

The .COM bills this "article" as;
"Rome: Total War features in the latest issue of TIME magazine, one of the most respected magazines in the world."

Perhaps it is - but you would never know that by the content of this "feature".

Barkhorn. ~:joker: ~:joker: ~:joker:

[Ser Clegane]

catapult flaming pigs into besieged cities

What the ... ??

Surely a great way to starve out besieged cities... ~;p

I'm looking forward to "catapulting" armored elephants into advancing legions - that'll teach 'em ~:wacko:

[Tamur]

Wait, there's another angle we can take on this, I must send it to Time right away...

"Some of the business benefits of Rome: Total War include:

. Leveraging your organisation's competitive stance
. Bringing your best to the table
. Optimising employee decision-making and productivity
. Improving user satisfaction
. Accelerating revenue opportunities
. Reducing service delivery time"

Marketing vomit, gotta love it. (Anyone want to guess where this comes from?)

[Papewaio]

^ Sounds like a microsoft ad.

[Axeknight]

I long to see armoured elephants being fired from catapults, and the reaction of the soldiers they hit.

"Look at that, Quintus!"
"What? Arggghhhh!!!!!"
*legionnary flatness ensues*


^ Sounds like a microsoft ad.
Like microsoft need to advertise.

Microsoft: Buy our stuff, or we'll buy you and your peasant village. Seriously.

[The Witch-King]

"Will you catapult flaming pigs into besieged cities as the Romans did?"

Seriously, that one had me chuckling for quite a while. I can just imagine the Cathaginian general screaming with his silly accent:

"Iet ies taim to show zese Roman zcum ze power of Carzage! Load ze catapults and fire ze flamink piegs!"

Pigs: "Oink, oink, oink!"

Soldiers: "Ze catapult iz loaded Zjeneral!"

General: " Alright, now fire ze flamink piegs!"

Pigs: "Oink, oink, SQUEEEEEEEEEEEEE....!!!!!"

-----------------------------------

*On the wall of the Roman town*

Marcus: "...And then I said "Well, I can show my other gladius too, if ya know what I mean!"

Publius: *chuckles*....Hmmm, what's that? Hey, do you hear that too?"

Marcus: "By Jove, the Carthaginians, they are catapulting flaming pigs at us! Everybody hit the deck!"

Pig: " SQEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!"

Publius: "Aaaaaaaaaaaggghhh*SPLATSJ!*

Marcus: "By Hera's boobs, they got Publius!"

[Steppe Merc]

Flying pigs... even worse than head hurlers. The only other ammo for catapults other than rocks that makes sense is dead bodies... but pigs? :tomato:
Hmm... mabye the pigs have a bonus when used in Judea?

[andrewt]

What a bunch of fluff. Reminds me of all the times I slacked off in school and had to BS something at the last minute. That's just how I would write in those kinds of situations. Throw in a few industry buzzwords and voila, business presentation or paper or whatever is ready.

[Tamur]

Microsoft: Buy our stuff, or we'll buy you and your peasant village. Seriously.

lol! That is so classic.

[Colovion]

What a bunch of fluff. Reminds me of all the times I slacked off in school and had to BS something at the last minute. That's just how I would write in those kinds of situations. Throw in a few industry buzzwords and voila, business presentation or paper or whatever is ready.

bingo

[Voigtkampf]

Marcus: "By Hera's boobs, they got Publius!"

~:joker: ~:joker: ~:joker: ~;p ~;) ~D


Btw, you old Medieval freaks should know, dead animals have been catapulted into the besieged cities old the time, and pigs are a sort of an animal that is genetically very similar to humans and people get easily infected by all that nasty stuff a pig can have much easier than they could sustain an infection from other animals.

But flaming pigs!?!

---------

I don’t eat pork. I don’t eat anything that doesn’t have enough senses to raise from its own feces. But I would eat Miss Piggy. She has a lot of personality, and personality goes a long way.

[Axeknight]

Marcus: "By Hera's boobs, they got Publius!"
That's getting sigged! ~:joker:

[SouthwaterPanda]

You are - perhaps deliberately? - missing the point... a game that gets a good review, indeed *any review at all* outside of the specialist media is making the crossover into the mainstream. And the mainstream is a *very good place to be*. People who've never bought a computer game before, indeed who would have no idea what games are around, will read "Time", see that it recommends RTW, and pick up a copy. It'll be the only game they've bought this year. That's good for computer games in general, and good for RTW and CA in particular. You should be happy for us.

Some of you really do seem to have a problem with some of the Rome marketing... and since a lot of the marketing palpably isn't aimed at you, you should maybe chill out some :) As an experiment, try selling Rome to a complete stranger and newcomer to computer games in fifty words or less. Your partner, say, or your parents. Try not to use phrases like "with big battles like in 'Gladiator' and 'Troy', only you're in charge". Then try again with those kinds of phrases and see their eyes light up with understanding. As Captain Fishpants has said elsewhere, sometimes you just have to use terms of reference which everyone will understand, even if to a purist this smacks of mild inaccuracy.

[Duke John]

As an experiment, try selling Rome to a complete stranger and newcomer to computer games in fifty words or less.
Something like:
"R:TW will be shipped together with a tool to unpack the PAK files plus a document/tool so that you can animate and skin new units. Greatly expanding the possibilities of R:TW mods and thus bringing in alot of cash for CA."

:saint:

"I'll buy it!"

But you're right about popular marketing. Although when it gets released it will feel like playing a kids game. If that is the vision you want to spread... well, you probably do.

[Papewaio]

You are - perhaps deliberately? - missing the point... a game that gets a good review, indeed *any review at all* outside of the specialist media is making the crossover into the mainstream. And the mainstream is a *very good place to be*. People who've never bought a computer game before, indeed who would have no idea what games are around, will read "Time", see that it recommends RTW, and pick up a copy. It'll be the only game they've bought this year. That's good for computer games in general, and good for RTW and CA in particular. You should be happy for us.

Some of you really do seem to have a problem with some of the Rome marketing... and since a lot of the marketing palpably isn't aimed at you, you should maybe chill out some :) As an experiment, try selling Rome to a complete stranger and newcomer to computer games in fifty words or less. Your partner, say, or your parents. Try not to use phrases like "with big battles like in 'Gladiator' and 'Troy', only you're in charge". Then try again with those kinds of phrases and see their eyes light up with understanding. As Captain Fishpants has said elsewhere, sometimes you just have to use terms of reference which everyone will understand, even if to a purist this smacks of mild inaccuracy.

Its either the cute name or the half liter can of beer I'm cradling but that sounds kind of a good little competition for us to run here at the Org.

:saint: :bow: :knight: ~:santa:

[Axeknight]

Mainstream exposure is fantastic for CA and (despite what some might think) the TW community. It's just that, the people who are regs here are, in general, serious TWers and it seems funny to be describing it simply, when we're used to questions like 'which are better for the florins? v0 w1 a1 Boyars or v2 w0 a1 Szelkys?' - it's like if someone described game design as 'writing lots of funny words and numbers that make the computer do clever things' in a popular magazine.

[SouthwaterPanda]

Exactly. To sell the game to a Total War fan we have to go into detail about the way in which the game balances continuity with evolution, what precisely you can do with this, that, and the other feature...

... whereas to sell to someone who doesn't normally play computer games, we *also* need a cool and instantly compelling marketing gambit which allows us to grab them, turn them upside-down, shake them till their wallet falls out, and extract £30 while they're still cooing about it all. "Epic" and "shiny" are extremely powerful mass-market selling tools, as anyone here who despises the words but can read sales figures should have the decency to admit :-)

The two strategies are *not* necessarily mutually exclusive, and I'm afraid that any hardcore player who thinks we should ignore the mass market because it will offend them... is going to be offended. But the game will be the same regardless, and if you can learn to look past the marketing, you'll play it and love it.

Gil

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

"Will you catapult flaming pigs into besieged cities as the Romans did?"

Seriously, that one had me chuckling for quite a while. I can just imagine the Cathaginian general screaming with his silly accent:

"Iet ies taim to show zese Roman zcum ze power of Carzage! Load ze catapults and fire ze flamink piegs!"

Pigs: "Oink, oink, oink!"

Soldiers: "Ze catapult iz loaded Zjeneral!"

General: " Alright, now fire ze flamink piegs!"

Pigs: "Oink, oink, SQUEEEEEEEEEEEEE....!!!!!"

-----------------------------------

*On the wall of the Roman town*

Marcus: "...And then I said "Well, I can show my other gladius too, if ya know what I mean!"

Publius: *chuckles*....Hmmm, what's that? Hey, do you hear that too?"

Marcus: "By Jove, the Carthaginians, they are catapulting flaming pigs at us! Everybody hit the deck!"

Pig: " SQEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!"

Publius: "Aaaaaaaaaaaggghhh*SPLATSJ!*

Marcus: "By Hera's boobs, they got Publius!"

Just to congratulate you. Two very good ones... :thumbsup:

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

You are - perhaps deliberately? - missing the point... a game that gets a good review, indeed *any review at all* outside of the specialist media is making the crossover into the mainstream. And the mainstream is a *very good place to be*. People who've never bought a computer game before, indeed who would have no idea what games are around, will read "Time", see that it recommends RTW, and pick up a copy. It'll be the only game they've bought this year. That's good for computer games in general, and good for RTW and CA in particular. You should be happy for us.

Some of you really do seem to have a problem with some of the Rome marketing... and since a lot of the marketing palpably isn't aimed at you, you should maybe chill out some :) As an experiment, try selling Rome to a complete stranger and newcomer to computer games in fifty words or less. Your partner, say, or your parents. Try not to use phrases like "with big battles like in 'Gladiator' and 'Troy', only you're in charge". Then try again with those kinds of phrases and see their eyes light up with understanding. As Captain Fishpants has said elsewhere, sometimes you just have to use terms of reference which everyone will understand, even if to a purist this smacks of mild inaccuracy.
The problem with the game isn't just the marketing... ~:angry:

[Axeknight]

The two strategies are *not* necessarily mutually exclusive, and I'm afraid that any hardcore player who thinks we should ignore the mass market because it will offend them... is going to be offended. But the game will be the same regardless, and if you can learn to look past the marketing, you'll play it and love it.
Ah yes, but that doesn't mean we can't laugh at the mass market for not being as clever as us.

Arrogant, moi? ~D

[Papewaio]

Arrogance happens to the best of us.


Of course quoting my genius self proves my point. ~:joker:

[afrit]

The two strategies are *not* necessarily mutually exclusive


SouthwaterPanda,
thanks for the comments. I am happy for CA and I'm glad it got mentioned in Time (I have already used the "it's so good it is on the history channel" explanation with friends and colleages as an excuse for my addiction to the game ;-) ).

But our worry is that as the general non-strategy-gamer market becomes a bigger chunk of CA's income, you will start targeting new releases/features at them at the expense of developing the aspects of the game that we love. I saw it happen before in the Mac software market in the late 90's. "How could releasing a software program for the PC hurt the Mac community? It can only mean more exposure, income....etc." Next thing you know, Mac versions were getting delayed and lacking features.

This is a serious concern. Although RTW seems to not to have deviated from the core MTW gameplay model, and I am excited about it, I can only hope the future releases continue to have the "depth" of the current titles.

Afrit

[Crazed Rabbit]

mild inaccuracy

That's an interesting way to put things.

MSM exposure is usually a good thing, but not always. Changing the game solely to appeal to the mass market can take away from what made it great. Take a look at Ghost Recon 2.

Crazed Rabbit

[Maedhros]

I believe Mr Panda was including the elements that have been critiqued here as the marketing.

Head hurlers, screaming chicks, and flaming pigs are the shiny bits that grab attention. The inclusion of these bits are ugly to some and attention grabbers to others.

I doubt it will be all that difficult to get rid of them once the software becomes one with your PC.

I admit I laugh at the pig imagery, but the rest does nothing for me. I've bought and look forward to playing it.

I've suggested elswhere the best way to deal with the problem is to put rules in the MP forum that forbid the use of the really offensive units.

That will make the point more strongly than any ranting here.

Now Mr. Panda if we might discuss the future of total war and an epic (read shiny and attention grabbing) book called The Silmarillion....

[Puzz3D]

Although RTW seems to not to have deviated from the core MTW gameplay model.

The quality of multiplyer battles has been adversly affected by certain design decisions.


I've suggested elswhere the best way to deal with the problem is to put rules in the MP forum that forbid the use of the really offensive units.

You can't make rules that affect game speed.

[SouthwaterPanda]

The quality of multiplyer battles has been adversly affected by certain design decisions.

I hope you're not saying that Rome's multiplayer battles have been adversely affected by certain design decisions - before the game has come out and you've actually played any multiplayer battles.

[JeromeGrasdyke]

I hope you're not saying that Rome's multiplayer battles have been adversely affected by certain design decisions - before the game has come out and you've actually played any multiplayer battles.

That would certainly be premature ~;)

And to Maedhros: I suggested using the Silmarillion some years ago to the Powers that Be within CA, as it's actually much more suited to this type of game than LotR, but someone with deep pockets had already snaffled the rights, more's the pity.

[Maedhros]

thanks Jerome.


I'm crushed, but thanks.


Let's hope they use their deep pockets to chat with you gents about some technology.


Otherwise we'll be stuck with a stupid comic point and click waste.

[Axeknight]

I think I got to chapter 5 of the Silmarillion before the inevitable "Argh! What are you talking about Tolky? I don't understand!"

[Maedhros]

I read it in 6th grade - had to skip the first couple chapters about the music and such. After that I was totally caught up in the story.

[Voigtkampf]

Now, when I look at many posts made over the last year, I cannot help myself thinking that it seems rather fashionable to bash Rome: Total War at every possible instance, never mind how “thin” the reasons for that bashing are. It seems to be simply “in”; if you want to be “up to date”, “dandy” and, this one is particularly laughable to me, want to leave an impression of a subtle, intellectual gaming gourmet, then bash Rome.

I have stopped caring about it sometime ago.

Though I personally have been amused about the rather naive depiction of Rome, I perfectly understand its reasoning and think that all the fans of Total war should rather feel flattered that their favorite (?) game has made it to “Time” - I suppose there is no need pointing out the distinction between the time and the local gaming magazine, isn’t it?


Anyway, I can hardly wait to lay my hands on that marvelous game, and do sincerely hope that it will sell in millions copies, so CA will get the money and the possibility to continue their impressive and, as far as I, an ignorant and dumb mainstream buyer am concerned, most appreciated work.

[Nerouin]

I can't believe how skeptical and scathing you guys are.

So there are some things about the demo that you don't like. Give it a chance and stop bashing CA.

[Steppe Merc]

We just want the best game possible. We're not bashing CA, just don't like some (a lot) of their descisions.

[webwing]

As far as the Time Magazine article goes, CA is right: It will be great for business, period.

Now, regarding the criticism about the game the fact is that before the demo everyone was really excited about it, thinking it would be a fantastic game.

Personally I think the final game will be very good but the demo is VERY disapointing for a veteran player of MTW and STW. Either it was targeted for the newbies or it was rushed.

Still I think this discussions are great cause it gives CA some feedback.
Unlike most I think it is possible to make a game that appeals to both hardcore and casual players.

[]'s

[SouthwaterPanda]

That would certainly be premature ~;)


Stop posting inbetween builds and go home, Jerome ;)

[Puzz3D]

I hope you're not saying that Rome's multiplayer battles have been adversely affected by certain design decisions - before the game has come out and you've actually played any multiplayer battles.

I measured the unit speeds in the demo, and those measurements were independently confirmed by another player. I don't have to play multiplayer battles to understand the impact of these new speeds. They definitely preclude me from coordinating a full army, and I have no reason to expect that the speeds will be different in the full game. It's apparently one of the trade-offs that has been made to appeal to the new mainstream market.

[Colovion]

I measured the unit speeds in the demo, and those measurements were independently confirmed by another player. I don't have to play multiplayer battles to understand the impact of these new speeds. They definitely preclude me from coordinating a full army, and I have no reason to expect that the speeds will be different in the full game. It's apparently one of the trade-offs that has been made to appeal to the new mainstream market.

your sad, but unfortunately true words make me cry ~:mecry:

[Oaty]

That would certainly be premature ~;)

And to Maedhros: I suggested using the Silmarillion some years ago to the Powers that Be within CA, as it's actually much more suited to this type of game than LotR, but someone with deep pockets had already snaffled the rights, more's the pity.


So somebody tell me in a nutshell what silmarillon is?

As far as marketing look at some of the great art work on PC games. Then look at the quality of the game. Well for me I either buy a game out of word of mouth or I buy the first in its genre for 10 bucks. Its after playing the first in the series that may entice me to buy further into it.

If you've noticed in stores they are selling the battle collection(forget how its labeled) with both MTW and VI in it for 30 bucks. To me thats a bit of a steep price for a game that old but apparently its still pumping out sales. Of course they did this to even promote further sales of RTW. They buy it they love it and they want the sequal. They also might have recalled all of there other boxes out in the market so they could put even more RTW videos in it rather than just have that 1 video that is on the VI CD. So the people buying these get all of these videos in 1 shot rather than having to DL it, promoting the game even further.

[Osbot]

At a base level, I nor anyone else should have a problem with a company trying to appeal to the mass market. However, it is when the game is simplified or dumbed down in a way that is negative. Simplifying the interface while keeping the tactical nuances of the game is not a bad thing it is a good thing. On the otherhand making the game with the intention of making everything -lite so that the laymen can get into it sit down for 10 minutes and have a good time is bad. To support this point of view I need only to direct you to xbox.

As many of you probably know two of the most recently beloved games thief and dues ex have released sequals on the xbox. These games are almost universally reviled for their total shallowness. When developers dumb down a game to this extent for the sole purpose of lining their pockets, in an attempt to appeal to the console crowd, they are not only doing a disservice to their fans and computer gaming, they are not thinking long term business wise.

There has always been the console market and the computer market and there always should be. There is a very simple reason why, consol games while having a broader mass appeal can never be as complex as rich or deep as computer game. By flooding the computer game market with console titles, and developing computer titles for consoles you are hitting on one demographic but completely ignoring another. Computer gamers have consoles to play console games, they have computers to play computer games. The computer gaming scene in my opinion is only just recently making a comeback to high quality games. The last VERY good games were in the early/mid 90's with a few gems released since. Games have been by and large all eye candy and nothing else and only recently have people started to see past JUST eye candy and demand more from the game. Now we have the console revolution which stands to set back computer gaming even further than 3d graphics initially did.

So while im happy for you and your newfound mass market appeal, I sure as shit hope this isnt another dues ex 2 where you're laughing all the way to the bank while we are all left with a pretty game. Oh and by the way, the demo DOES play too fast.

[Voigtkampf]

I measured the unit speeds in the demo, and those measurements were independently confirmed by another player. I don't have to play multiplayer battles to understand the impact of these new speeds. They definitely preclude me from coordinating a full army, and I have no reason to expect that the speeds will be different in the full game. It's apparently one of the trade-offs that has been made to appeal to the new mainstream market.

The impact of this being that the MP games will have a faster pace then they have had until now, I suppose. I never played Shogy or Medieval online, so I wouldn’t know precisely, and have never claimed to be an expert in this area of TW, so you may regard my words with a certain reserve. I do intend on playing a lot of Rome online, and I believe that, along with greater maps, this issue with speed will not fall negatively into light. MTW was slow as hell sometimes, the difference between walking/charging soldiers/cav was hardly noticeable, which bogged me a lot. Also, I always figured it to be the extreme and utter nonsense that infantry could run away from my cavalry, no matter how “rested” they are! ~:angry:

And as for the historically aware members, please recall that the warriors of the time were true masters of running, and endurance! :jumping:

It is good, imho of course, that the tactic pace in Rome will be faster then it has been so far. But making this claim before I actually played one single MP game would be… premature? ~;)

[andrewt]

I know and perfectly understand the reasons why the article is written that way. And my response is just as much a response to the article as to Tamur's post, which I found really funny. Marketing as all about BS'ing and there are two kinds of it. The first is subtle BS'ing and the second looks like it was written by an undergrad doing some cramming.

In marketing, you highlight the things that your intended audience likes and omit the ones they aren't very interested about. The same product will be marketed to different market segments differently. Add a few industry jargon and some currently trendy catchphrases, stir and mix well. Talk about facts, units, etc. that you might not know anything about but the audience won't know better. If you overdo it, or somebody in the know reads it, however, it sounds really funny.

Rome: If you want to be Caesar, you have to think outside the box and leverage your faction's core competencies into sustainable competitive advantages in a fierce competitive environment. Do you focus on being a first-mover on innovative unit technologies or create a well-balanced and diversified portfolio of the various unit types? Will you employ a differentiation strategy using nonsubstitutable, unique units or optimize operations productivity using a unit count leadership strategy? On the way, you will look into negotiating complementary strategic alliances and other mutually beneficial treaties with your rivals. Be careful, however, as improper risk management and the obsolescence of core competencies into core rigidities can leave your faction suddenly in an uncompetitive position.

[Ludens]

Now, when I look at many posts made over the last year, I cannot help myself thinking that it seems rather fashionable to bash Rome: Total War at every possible instance, never mind how “thin” the reasons for that bashing are. It seems to be simply “in”; if you want to be “up to date”, “dandy” and, this one is particularly laughable to me, want to leave an impression of a subtle, intellectual gaming gourmet, then bash Rome.
Wise words, lord Voigtkampf. I myself have been wondering for some time why people seemed so hostile to RTW. Every snipped of information CA released was researched with the outmost precision for 'historical incorrectness', and woe to CA if something was found to be wrong. For example, I have heard people complaining about the shield of the Cataphract cavalry. That's just typical because MTW's kataphraktoi were hardly 'historical correct': they don't have shields, they don't have bows, they don't have maces and it can be argued that they weren't really important any more after the battle of Manizkert.

I don't know what caused this hostility. I guess everyone expected a lot more of RTW than of MTW and thus created an impossibly high standard for CA to comply with. Off course CA couldn't reach this state of perfection (due to limited time or money, or whatever reason), and in reaction to this people started taking every detail apart to prove that the game was 'wrong'. While in fact it is no more 'wrong' than MTW.

Yes, there are issues which CA should take seriously. Game speed is one, historical accuracy (see my sig) is two. And I don't mean that every detail has to be correct, I just want the factions (Egyptians/barbarians) to resemble there real-life counterparts.

Oaty, the Silmarillion is a book of Tolkien, about the history of Middle Earth before the War of the Ring. It is not like 'The Lord of the Rings'; I have heard it being compared to the Old Testament, but it is a very good read if you like epic histories.

[Axeknight]

or somebody in the know reads it, however, it sounds really funny.
Second that. And in reply to voigt's post, I don't think the original intention of this thread was to bash CA or RTW. I'm about to preorder from Amazon as I type.

But the mainstream marketing seems funny to us because it's just that: mainstream marketing. I mean, all the advertising we need here at the Org is 'Yeah, Rome's coming out late September, preorder here' - and a link. So it seems strange when we see 'Command mighty 3D armies in real-time battles' etc - because we know we're going to be able to do that. We're interested in 'With Rome, we're adding a mod-pack that makes it really easy to mod the game, say by changing unit graphics or numbers per unit to make the game more interesting. So if you like light cavalry armies, you can mod more men into that Parthian horse archer unit' and such. And CA are telling us that stuff as well as the mainstream stuff for the mainstream. It's just that when we see the simplified 'Cut 3D heads off!' style advertising, it seems funny.

[ICantSpellDawg]

remeber in viking invasion?
when the viking on the box had a helmet with horns?

i dont remember any vikings with horns in the actual game other than joms vikings (which are semi-imaginary anyway)

VI turned out to be entertaining and good

however, as a proponent of historical realism in games - due to the fact that i have HEARD that EA/CA is running away from its responsibility to its long time fansthe day it comes out but will wait until a sizeable portion of THIS community gives me the ok or at least says it attempts to follow the suite of its predecessors

i cant be spending money on every gladiator: the videogame that comes out

[Barkhorn1x]

Some of you really do seem to have a problem with some of the Rome marketing... and since a lot of the marketing palpably isn't aimed at you, you should maybe chill out some :)

Yes, assinine units like Head Hurlers and Screeching Women are an issue for me.

Don't you find it a bit ironic that 90% of the units in the game are - err - "historically based" - and the dip-shit reviewer focuses exclusivly on those that are not?

You're pretty clear on why CA is going in the "pop" direction with RTW. But you seem to be in denial regarding the effect these decisions have on your hard core fan base. You really can't have it both ways - and you've already dumbed your product down (ugly green arrow-heads, TOTALLY un-realistic unit speeds, annoyingly large red/green pointers, to say nothing of questionable units) to the point where a 10 year old can play it .

Oh sure we can and will mod - but your direction is clear. So you'll get my $$ for R:TW - and probably the expansion pack too (since these hew pretty close to their "parents"). But my future with your franchise is cloudy indeed.

Barkhorn - Arrogant Grognard.

[Barkhorn1x]

Now, when I look at many posts made over the last year, I cannot help myself thinking that it seems rather fashionable to bash Rome: Total War at every possible instance, never mind how “thin” the reasons for that bashing are. It seems to be simply “in”; if you want to be “up to date”, “dandy” and, this one is particularly laughable to me, want to leave an impression of a subtle, intellectual gaming gourmet, then bash Rome.

...I bash where appropriate IMO. And this Time mag. snippet is an ironic example of the sad state of knowledge regarding ancient history among the general public and the "new" direction that CA is taking with their franchise.

If you find my comments arrogant and elitist, then so be it. I'll live.
~;p

Barkhorn - Arrogant Grognard.

[Nigel]

Well, firsr of all it is good to have a thread where CA still actively replies and responds to our comments. There has indeed been a lot of "hostility" towards RTW on these forums and I am glad they are not just shrugging us off as an "impossible to please crowd of hardcore gamers and historians".


I don't know what caused this hostility. I guess everyone expected a lot more of RTW than of MTW and thus created an impossibly high standard

I guess that's got a lot to do with it. Expectations of the vets were very high.
And everyone had very precise ideas of what RTW should be. A certain disappointment would be inevitable.


Now I don't like the green arrows or fantasy units anymore than anyone else here. But CA are doing a difficult balancing act of moving into the mass market (which they may have to do for business reasons) and pleasing (or avoiding to disappoint) their old fans. The good thing is, they have no problems giving us options.

The green arrows and large unit flags can be turned off. The flaming pigs and screeming women are probably more of a marketing gag than that they will be of real significance in the game. The one thing that for me crystallizes out as still beeing a real issue is game speed.

I know Puss3D's comments have been called "premature", but I have learned to trust his judgement and, seeing it as a forecast of what is to come, I believe his words should be taken seriously. The thing to do, again, would be to give people the option to set their own gamespeed. Could be a slider bar, or a line in the preferences.txt, something like "gamespeed=100" where players could change it to a smaller number to adjust to their liking and which, in Multi Player, would be that the host's setting will be the one for the other players as well.

[The Witch-King]

Of course it's great that R:TW is mentioned in Time magazine, which is, after all, quite prestigious. However, the quality of the review leaves much to be desired, by focussing a lot on the screeching women and flaming pigs. I mean, RTW has much better things to offer than that, like excellent diplomacy, real historical units and immersive gameplay. I think these things will appeal far more to the average Time magazine reader than screeching women. And I still think the pighurling catapults are hysterically funny! Oh dear, I think I feel a poem coming up! :p

The Fall of Dumnorix

Dumnorix was a Celtic king.
Of him the harpers sadly sing:
the last whose realm was fair and free
between the Great Alps and the Sea.

His sword was long, his lance was keen,
his bright mustache afar was seen;
the countless stars of heaven's lair
were mirrored in his dandruff'd hair.

But long ago he fell in battle
when he crush'd a legion with great mettle
For he was dancing a victory jig
when he got hit by a burning pig

The song goes on for another 350 verses, most of them dealing with pork chops. :) Tis a sad song really and one of the finest examples of Celtic poetry. :)

[son of spam]

Of course it's great that R:TW is mentioned in Time magazine, which is, after all, quite prestigious. However, the quality of the review leaves much to be desired, by focussing a lot on the screeching women and flaming pigs. I mean, RTW has much better things to offer than that, like excellent diplomacy, real historical units and immersive gameplay. I think these things will appeal far more to the average Time magazine reader than screeching women. And I still think the pighurling catapults are hysterically funny! Oh dear, I think I feel a poem coming up! :p

The Fall of Dumnorix

Dumnorix was a Celtic king.
Of him the harpers sadly sing:
the last whose realm was fair and free
between the Great Alps and the Sea.

His sword was long, his lance was keen,
his bright mustache afar was seen;
the countless stars of heaven's lair
were mirrored in his dandruff'd hair.

But long ago he fell in battle
when he crush'd a legion with great mettle
For he was dancing a victory jig
when he got hit by a burning pig

The song goes on for another 350 verses, most of them dealing with pork chops. :) Tis a sad song really and one of the finest examples of Celtic poetry. :)

LOL! What LotR poem are you parodying?

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

The impact of this being that the MP games will have a faster pace then they have had until now, I suppose. I never played Shogy or Medieval online, so I wouldn’t know precisely, and have never claimed to be an expert in this area of TW, so you may regard my words with a certain reserve. I do intend on playing a lot of Rome online, and I believe that, along with greater maps, this issue with speed will not fall negatively into light. MTW was slow as hell sometimes, the difference between walking/charging soldiers/cav was hardly noticeable, which bogged me a lot. Also, I always figured it to be the extreme and utter nonsense that infantry could run away from my cavalry, no matter how “rested” they are! ~:angry:

And as for the historically aware members, please recall that the warriors of the time were true masters of running, and endurance! :jumping:

It is good, imho of course, that the tactic pace in Rome will be faster then it has been so far. But making this claim before I actually played one single MP game would be… premature? ~;)

I'd recommand you play MTW online, with existing MTW control that you already know and are used to, and with the slower MTW speed. It is very likely you'll be overwhelmed by the the speed of the game and frustrated by how difficult it is to command an army in the very limited time that is available to you. Reminder, there is no pause.
All new players have been there, and many new players find that difficult.
If you want, as an alternative; play a 4v4 custom game with no pause.
Higher RTW speed is only going to make the game tougher to play and control, and players are likely to adapt by using less elaborate tactic (they take more time to implement, all the more difficult with more time pressure).

Louis,

[Duke John]

Higher RTW speed is only going to make the game tougher to play and control, and players are likely to adapt by using less elaborate tactic.
Indeed! The feedback from the players will be that the games is too hard and mainstream gamers probably want even more simplistic gameplay, just like in their RTS games. CA can then do one of the following:
1. bring back the slower movement
2. make it more simple, since they need the mainstream market.
3. do nothing.

And this is not bashing premature. We have played with the game, and it's hard. I'm not that quick with the mouse and I don't have the time to practice 2 hours every day. So for me this wonderfull 3D game is reduced to a slideshow of pretty pictures. And if I dare to play it in MP I should probably stick to equivalents of Chivalric Men-at-Arms, or other click-and-forget units.

[Lord of the Isles]

LOL! What LotR poem are you parodying?

Gil-galad was an Elven king.
Of him the harpers sadly sing:
the last whose realm was fair and free
between the Mountains and the Sea.
His sword was long,
his lance was keen,
His shinning helm affar was seen,
the countless stars of heavens field,
were mirrored on his silver shield,
but long ago he rode away,
and where he dweleth none can say,
for into darkness fell his star,
in Mordor, where the shadows are.

[Jambo]

Ah the Silmarillion... it would undoubtedly be an awesome setting for a Total War title. I read it in my final year at school (near on 12 years ago now) and absolutely loved it, especially the vivid chapters where the Anur created and shaped Middle-earth with their songs.

As to whom has the big pockets, I'd hedge an educated guess that EA have the rights to the Tolkien franchise - what with the imminent release of their Battle For Middle-Earth RTS and all their previous movie-based titles...

I'm not one to criticise the marketing though - it's a tough, competitive world out there and the release of R:TW has, or is likely to, coincide with other BIG name titles including Doom 3, the aforementioned EA title and Half-Life 2! No easy feat given that many teenagers might only be able to initially afford one of these!

Also it's certainly a bit premature to be complaining about likely effects on MP based on a demo which doesn't even support MP. Whilst I don't necessarily disagree that the speed and killing rate might be a little too fast, bear in mind that the maps are substantially bigger in R:TW, and from a SP player perspective, I do remember getting bored with repetitive 30 min - 2 hour battles in M:TW.

Regards

Doc

[Puzz3D]

Also it's certainly a bit premature to be complaining about likely effects on MP based on a demo which doesn't even support MP. Whilst I don't necessarily disagree that the speed and killing rate might be a little too fast, bear in mind that the maps are substantially bigger in R:TW, and from a SP player perspective, I do remember getting bored with repetitive 30 min - 2 hour battles in M:TW.

So the speed change is yet another concession to single player at the expense of multiplayer? Multiplayer is included simply to increase sales? Time Magazine forgot to mention that.

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

What makes long boring battle in SP?

The (not so) slow pace of running and fighting?

Or endless reinforcement?

Louis,

[The Witch-King]

Hmmm, I think the Tokien Estate still has the rights to the Silmarillion, with Christopher Tolkien guarding them with his life. I don't think were gonna see an official 'Silmarillion: Total War' anytime soon. :(

[Duke John]

In M:TW movement of troops once combat was inititated wasn't too slow and certainly not unrealistic. So no reason there to increase speed.

Movement could be considered slow in SP when you needed to cross a large map for only a 3 unit vs 3 unit fight. Or when reinforcements need to brought up from the opposite side. But in SP you have time-compression, so in my opinion the increased speeds adds nothing to SP gameplay. Well that is besides added confusion and an unrealistic feel because of hypercharged units. The confusion can be avoided by using the Pause button, but that greatly decreases the epic movie-like feel of the battles.

In MP, the time spend to cross a large map wasn't irritating in my eyes, it allowed you to make some manuevres and talk abit with your teammates.
The negative side of large maps was not the time spent, but the loss of fatigue. And Puzz3D (?) rightly said before that this was the thing needing to be adressed and not walking speed.

If CA really wanted avoid long times walking across the map to reach an enemy then they should have added the column formation or a similar "special ability" that increases the walking speed of the army. Walking in combat formation isn't that fast, so turning it off, like the Phalanxes can, would allow you to cover distances a bit quicker. And this in an entirely realistic way.

...hmm, perhaps I will be able to mod the "Turn off Phalanx" ability to all units. This way they will walk faster, but in combat formation they will walk/run slower and thus providing a more enjoyable battle. Sounds like the best of 2 worlds, unless the AI is unable to cope with it...


[...] and from a SP player perspective, I do remember getting bored with repetitive 30 min - 2 hour battles in M:TW.
Then bear in mind that SP players are able to both compress time and pause the game so they should never be hindered/irritated by time. Although use of them does take away some immersion.
MP players doesn't have the option to use either of them.

[Jambo]

Yuuki,
Yes, I would agree that, if the speed and killing rate do pose an issue, then this will all the more apparent in MP. One can always mod the SP. Having experienced major slow downs and stuttering (to 5fps) during a modded 2 vs 2 demo battle involving large sized armies, I have my doubts as the full potential of MP anyway.... at least for greater than 1 vs 1s.

My PC is:
ATI X800 Pro
Athlon XP 3200+
1 GB RAM

Louis,
I'd say a mixture of both - Endless reinforcements obviously lead to increased time, but so can marching across an entire map to meet an AI army halfway up a hill, or chasing routed troops... I found myself constantly using the timer at full-speed, which in itself tends to detract from the atmosphere and epic feeling of a battle.

[Jambo]

Duke John,

MP a is completely different matter. I had no complaints regarding the speed and killing rate of MTW MP. The faults with MTW MP lied more with unit balance (i.e. no spears). The boredom of the long battles was always in SP mode.

[CBR]

Marching speed in RTW is the same as in MTW.

On a MTW map (medium size that is normally used in the campaign) it would take infantry about 8 minutes to walk from one mapedge to another. In RTW that takes about 18 minutes.

The running speed is really only used when fighting starts. And fighting never took long in MTW anyway.

The 50% increase in running speed we see in RTW wont effect the how long a battle last as most of the time is spent on marching and waiting for reinforcements to arrive. But it does effect our ability to control most of our units, especially with 25% more units.


CBR

[Puzz3D]

Then bear in mind that SP players are able to both compress time and pause the game so they should never be hindered/irritated by time. Although use of them does take away some immersion.
MP players doesn't have the option to use either of them.

It appears that CA is attempting to impliment pause, normal, double and triple speed for multiplayer battles. There are code statements in the demo which stipulate that either all players must agree on a speed change or one player can force a speed change. This is probably why the speed slider has been replaced with descrete speed settings. However, even if sucessfully implimented, this is not going to solve the issue at normal gamespeed of having too much to do and not enough time to do it at the height of the battle. Also, if a player is winning, he is not going to want to pause the game and give the player who is loosing a chance to issue extra orders.

[Jambo]

CBR, yeah you're correct. Most of the time will be spent on marching and reinforcements. I'm hoping that reinforcements will be done in a less boring and time-consuming manner, although I can't imagine how.

Still, during the marching process, if you group units and march them together, then many will periodically enter the running mode to catch up and keep the formation during manoeuvres. So, an element of the time-consuming marching period will be quickened and it should allow for quicker alterations to formations in reaction to the opposition.... However, once the battle pace has begun and with 20 units under your control, reacting then to situations will be more problematic. It will mean that much of the tactical planning and unit arrangement will have to be done long before the high-speed fighting has begun, when the units are sprinting around at breakneck speeds.

[CBR]

One main difference in RTW is that there is a population loss for each unit you make. I guess that will remove the ability to build loads of stacks as we saw in MTW.

If you have 2 armies that join a battle and both are controlled by your familiy members then both are supposed to enter the batte right away. One is just under AI control.

I think/hope that will mean no more hour long battles with loads of reinforcements we had in MTW.


CBR

[Jambo]

Oo, that sounds quite promising CBR! The best part of MTW was always the start of the campaigns where battles and unit stacks were comparatively small. It's not to say a good 3000 vs 3000 battle isn't good fun, it's just when it's the nth battle of that turn with those numbers the battles fast become boring - especially if you just know you're going to win against the often technically inferior AI.

[CBR]

IIRC CA did state that in RTW you were supposed to have fewer but more important battles. I guess that will be the consequences of the new army move system as well as population to limit number of units.

I quickly got bored with MTW SP because of boring battles as well as limited strategical gameplay. I was very much looking forward to RTW...and then the demo came.. oh well we will see


CBR

[Duke John]

IIRC CA did state that in RTW you were supposed to have fewer but more important battles.

One main difference in RTW is that there is a population loss for each unit you make.
That is fantastic! I didn't knew this for 100%, but if true, then it will be IMO one of the most important features of R:TW.
I believe that it was said elsewhere that the player can only make an army if he has a free general for it. You can't have unlimited amount of generals (thus loads of battles) since you only get a general once in a while. Or so I have heard. If that is right, plus the inclusion of modding tools, then I will forgive CA for the minor faults :grin:

[CBR]

Gah dont sound so surprised..now Im wondering where I read that heh..


CBR

[Duke John]

Hey, give me a break. :grin: I am not that into R:TW as others around here. I haven't read every review/FAQ/official post to get every bit of information. It's just that I'm preparing my Wars of the Roses mod for R:TW and the above features are another piece of the puzzle to make it a little bit more complete. But god I hope that we don't need to wait months for a patch, tool or release before R:TW becomes moddable.... you have probably heard me say that before, but CA says that R:TW is very moddable, but that doesn't say anything. If I'm not able to make new models and animations then I won't even buy the game.

[Voigtkampf]

Lord Ludens, thank you for your kind words. I hope you will, when the time comes, honor me with some Rome MP fights of epical proportions. :bow:



If you find my comments arrogant and elitist, then so be it. I'll live.

On the contrary, Barkhorn, I have never considered you to be arrogant, but you may be elitist whenever you please! ~;) But seriously, I have always found your contributions to be quite profound, your comments were adept and to the point, and I cannot recall one occasion when I read you post that I have thought off to be foolish or shallow. I’m not targeting you for your initial post in this thread either, and I have grinned as well when I read it!



Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe,

I have decided some time ago not to embark into M.TW online gaming, since I have never been an active online player in any game until the last six months. Its just me; I’ll play TW online when I get Rome, and then I will make my final decision on whether I like the MP part or not.

[ShadesPanther]

Duke John: I think I read somewhere that included with the game is the unit maker and building maker that CA actually used. ~D

[Duke John]

Then they are gods worth the sacrifice of at least 3 goats and 4.7 chickens!

:medievalcheers:

[Barkhorn1x]

On the contrary, Barkhorn, I have never considered you to be arrogant, but you may be elitist whenever you please! ~;) But seriously, I have always found your contributions to be quite profound, your comments were adept and to the point, and I cannot recall one occasion when I read you post that I have thought off to be foolish or shallow.

Thank you for the kind words Kampf. I wasn't offended or anything.
~:cheers:

Barkhorn.