MTW - Early Castle (Fort) Assaults

[Tomcat]

In Shogun I found it very easy to assault castles with minimal losses. You simply lined up a unit of archers in loose formation and took out what you could inside the castle with them while any archers inside the castle expended all their arrows. Then simply bring up all your other archer units to take out the majority of the castle occupiers without having to worry about anybody shooting at them and finish off any remaining defenders with melee infantry. You took very few losses indeed, and often none at all if there were no defending archers ~:) .

In MTW, I am finding a Fort assault is a rather different kettle of fish ~:confused: . I am talking about Early Period where you have no siege equipment and are only attacking a Fort with maybe a Motte and Bailey.

This is the topic I wanted to do a Search on - see earlier post https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=35803 since none of the otherwise excellent Frogbeastegg MTW primers and Guides on other threads I read here or elsewhere seemed to address this point in detail. Remember you have no siege equipment as yet!

In MTW you start off the battle already under arrow attack from the Fort ~:shock: as opposed to the long walk you have in Shogun to reach the Fort. I realise in MTW archers can fire burning arrows at the stockade walls and these will come down eventually, but the archers can take quite a fair amount of losses in doing this even on loose formation. Then I tried Holibars attacking the gates and they seemed reasonably well protected from arrows by the stockade wall until the gate was close to opening when they started taking losses. By the time they had killed all the defenders in the outer area of the fort there were not too many left to attack the inner gate. Then I discovered archers seemed to be just as effective in taking down the gates with their melee weapons as are Holibars and suffered far few losses in the process than if they tried to take down the stockade walls with burning arrows.

So I ended up finding the most effective way to assault a Fort with minimum losses was as follows. This specific example is using the English, since they were attacking France :frog: :

1. Immediately Run all troops back out of range of the arrows coming from the Fort, except:

2. Run one archer unit in loose formation straight up to the first Fort gate, close the formation at the last minute and attack the gate in melee mode. When this was about 50% demolished, charge one Holibar unit in loose formation straight for the nearly demolished gate with the aim that it reached the gate just as it came open and to continue charging through it, changing to wedge or close formation to take out any occupants of the outer area of the Fort.

3. Depending on how many enemy units there may be in the outer area of the Fort for the Holibars to kill, the archers would either be retreated (run) immediately in loose formation or run to attack the 2nd gate in melee mode with minimal delay. In any event, after a possible short retreat, they would be run to attack the second gate while the Holibars were retreated (run) in loose mode.

4. When the second gate was about 50% demolished by the archers, the Holibars would again be charged at the second gate with the intention of arriving just as it opened. Other Holibar units may be charged in at the same time in loose formation, changing to wedge or close formation at the last moment, depending upon the number of defenders present. The archers may then either be used against the remaining defenders as well or retreated (run) as soon as the second gate was opened.

Any views on this or other approaches to assaulting a Fort with minimal loss and without siege equipment? I would hate to think I have missed something else very obvious ~:eek: !

Tomcat

[Ldvs]

Firstly, I never send archers in any siege, they're more than useless and would get slaughtered. Then, if you have no siege equipment, use either peasants, spearmen or mercenaries to attack the stockade, not the gate. They will take casualties but that's no big loss.

[Sociopsychoactive]

YOur missing a very important point.

In MTW sieges both the attacker AND defender get to deploy their troops wherever they wish. The defenders within a short radius of the castle, the attacker anywhere outside that radious.

The way I tend to do for, or even keep sieges when I have no siege equipment is find a partial unit with reasonable attack, FMAA, militia seargents, something like that, preferably not one vulnerable to missiles.

Every other unit gets moved back to start way out of arrow range, with maybe another partial unit ready to move in if the first one falls, but still out of arrow range. A cavalry unit is on standby to rush in if the first unit needs help with killing units, not wall's.

THe first partial gets positioned as close to a wall as possible, if it's a forte motte and bailey then a wall that leads to the inner part, and charges straight at it. They ususally lose less than 10% in attacking the wall, then up to or over 50% of whats left killing the defenders, depending on numbers and how spread out they are. The cavalry charge in if needed, and bam, the forst is mine with only losses to one partial unit.

[Accounting Troll]

Even in early, ballistas, catapults and mangonels are available to build. Hire them as mercenaries if you don't want to go to the effort to build a seige engineer and upgrade it. The maintenance costs of a few mercenary artillery units will not place a large burden on your treasury.

You can choose where to position artillery units on the battlefield before the battle begins, but once there you can't shift them. Catapults and ballistae have a greater range than the defensive fire. Use them to batter down the walls and use any ammo left over to destroy any towers so you suffer less casualties in the assault.

[Boris of Bohemia]

Bypass the gate. It's easy to knock down the wooden walls with peasants or some fodder unit. A single ballista has enough ammo to knock down a wooden wall. Once inside, the fort can be attacked too.

[Tomcat]

Thanks for the replies folks. Some useful info there.

To those who suggested acquiring siege equipment by any means possible, I should just add that I wanted to know the best way to assault without using any siege units on this occasion.

Hehe! Now that I have had the AI assault me today for the first time in Sweden just using Vikings, I know the best way to break the Fort walls down ~;) .

The reason I found myself in this unexpected position was that I tried bribing the Swedish Fort successfully, and expected the whole of Sweden to become English the following turn. I did not realise the separate Rebel army in Sweden would not be bribed at the same time although I did think the 2 halves of the Swedish army was a pretty good deal ~D . Hence I found myself unexpectedly on the wrong end of a castle assault and losing Sweden faster than I had acquired it ~:angry: . That'll teach me not to bribe like that again!

Presumably you have to either bribe both the Fort garrison and the Rebel Army in the field at the same time with 2 Emissaries for it to work effectively or to at least try bribing the stronger faction first!

Tomcat

[HopAlongBunny]

Fort battles I pretty much do all the same (if w/o artillery)

Attack from all sides; stagger it so each breaks through a lil later than the first.
You either dogpile the defenders or get them running between breaches; I always try to get one unit engaged in front and one in flank/rear.

I will tone this down for a single defender; no point having 8+ units get shot up by defences to dispatch one peasant.

Yes, you need to bribe all stacks of units to get it "free" and clear ~:)
The AI has a habit of "just happening" to build one unit in the fort on the turn you bribe.

[Quietus]

I agree with Hop. Particularly use spear units with shock troops like Woodsmen/Militia Sergeants. It all depends on the AI inside; choose accordingly. Most of the time I just use spearmen-type, but there are tough units there like an AUM, then by all means use a tougher unit like Feudal-men-at-arms/militia sergeants at the flanks.

A CHARGE with a spearmen brings down the gate or wall very easily. When you get close to the gate charge with the spearman. If necessary, halt and recharge again. In a matter of seconds the gate will fall.

Ironically, I find shogun castle assaults more exciting, defending or attacking. Atttacking AI can shoot back at you.

In MTW, I lost a one sided battle against the Egyptians. My English army was quelling a rebellion in scotland after the Germans betrayed our alliance. Thus cutting off contact with the british isle. So I pulled off my English army campaigning againts the mangy Egyptians in north Africa. Sooner I leave, the Egyptians launched a counter attack against my small garrison. I fought bravely, but their numbers are too much. I found myself trapped in the castle. Next turn they "stormed" my castle. They lost almost all their troops-shot to pieces by my invisible defenders (they didn't even break through the first gate). Next turn, I launced a counter attack with some fresh new units and beat the decimated army. ~:wacko:

[CherryDanish]

I find English Longbowmen a very effective unit in castle sieges, more so on forts, less so on fortresses. I unload with siege engines/artillery and knock down a few walls and towers and then send in the archers to mow down the defenders. I find melee units tend to push defenders into wallas and buildings and some odd geometry leeds to lengthly kills giving the AI time to wittle down my attacking force more than it should. One lone vanilla archer should not last 2-4 minutes against 300-400 attackers in melee including huscarles, 7 valour billmen and 9 valour knights templar. With longbowmen, this isn't an issue and I don't get hosed by the "last man standing" principle. On close battle the longbowmen fill in with an alt+click as infantry.

[Kommodus]

To those who suggested acquiring siege equipment by any means possible, I should just add that I wanted to know the best way to assault without using any siege units on this occasion.
Tomcat

One word: Autoresolve. This is effective at any time in the game, whether you are attacking a simple fort or a massive fortress.

I almost never build siege equipment (at least, until cannons become available). When I take a province, if a large number of enemy troops retreat to the castle (resulting in a short siege), I wait it out. If a small number of troops retreat to the castle (resulting in a long siege), I assault and autoresolve; my shear weight of numbers usually results in a decisive victory with few men lost.

You can try various techniques for more effective manual assaults, but you will rarely get as good results as you get with autoresolve.

[Doug-Thompson]

Build an inn and hire mercenary siege equipment. Keep it.

A mercenary mangonel costs less per turn to maintain than one unit of peasants. They also make short work of any fort, even improved ones.

[katank]

wooden forts, just mass 6+ archers and focus fire, they bring down the walls faster than siege.

use peasants or spears to beat down walls is also good.

I frankly don't like mangonels as they miss too much. catapults do a better job on most things.

ignore the gates and go for the walls. there's no burning oil and it doesn't close on you.

[Doug-Thompson]

I frankly don't like mangonels as they miss too much. catapults do a better job on most things.



Yeah, but mangonels have the range to knock down both the outer and inner walls. Also, there's enough ammo to allow for misses.

[katank]

they have the same range. mangonel just has more power.

the mangonel has higher angle of shot so misses are more frequent while the cata shot bounces low and hits regardless.

the mangonel is also bigger and more easily wrecked by defensive fire.

[Doug-Thompson]

I stand corrected. ~:mecry:

[Tomcat]

Some great ideas guys, and some useful info on siege equipment, thanks!

I have to admit although I can very easily beat the autoresolve on regular battles, as Kommodus mentioned the autoreolve does a better job at assaulting a fort than I can do. Not by a lot but it all counts. Unfortunately, the autoresolve does not make the assault fun but it does avoid the frustration ~;).

Tomcat

[CherryDanish]

I have to admit although I can very easily beat the autoresolve on regular battles, as Kommodus mentioned the autoreolve does a better job at assaulting a fort than I can do. Not by a lot but it all counts. Unfortunately, the autoresolve does not make the assault fun but it does avoid the frustration ~;).
Much of the draw to this game for me is the castle assault. I honestly love blowing up fortifications with siege engines and artillery. Sometimes I'll replay an assault just to play around with artillery and seige engine placements and watch the walls and towers go boom. The AI plays a poor static defense, depending entirely on the fortifications and crowded kill zones for it's salvation. I take complete advantage of it and use all my slots for artillery and seige engines, except for 2 (one for the general, one for cav to hunt down retreating seige engine and archer units that leave the castle when they run out of ammo or have their weapons destroyed). A human opponent would leave the security of the fortification and rush my artillery where I have only one defensive unit (my general).

I won an assault I had no business winning against swiss invaders (from a rebellion). They had 4 units of upgraded SAP, one archer unit, one halbedier unit, peasants, some seige weapons and a badly beaten up unit of royal cav. I had 2 depleated units of royal knights and a peasant garrison unit. They were assaulting a basic castle. Anyway, they sent 2 units of SAPs, the cav with the king, and the peasants and tried to beat through my gate in a very foolish manner (they didn't all rush it but sent the cav in first and held off the peasants. Their king bought it from my defenses and their other units got seriously thinned before they EVENTUALLY broke through my gate. They had by that time punched a hole through 2 walls (one inner, one outer ring). I sent out my cav and charged the halbediers (who were isolated due to their slow speed) from opposing sides. Their morale broke shortly and they routed. I couldn't believe my luck and the impact of their dead king. Best of all, the AI had no more cav and so sent 2 units of slow SAPs off to chase my cav. I had them chase my prince all over the place and then routed the remaining peasants with my other cav (now down to a 3-4 knights) who were still hanging around my front gate. Finally I was down to facing 3 full units of SAP and one that had been beaten up a bit trying to push through my gate. All I had was a baddly mauled unit of peasants and about 5 knights broken up into 2 units. The timer had passed the halfway mark as one of their SAP units backed off and turned. I thought they were going to chase my cav, but then I noticed all their units were heading towards the map edge. I decided not to push my luck by pressing the attack and sat it out. That, was a blast and it's the only time I've had to defend against an assault.

[Tomcat]

Hehe! Have to admit that does sound a lot of fun and a good offensive defense ~:).

Since I have now built a couple of catapaults in my first campaign, I am now going castle hunting ~D .

Tomcat

[katank]

try defending a fortress against the mongols in khazar.

I modded the cannon towers to be buildable without foundries just for this and thus had siege cannon towers facing the horde assault.

they got mauled beyond all comprehension and had no way to break through my waiting huscarles even though they hacked down the gates, they couldn't do anything else.