Effective use of CA

[FasT]

CA r really annoyin but r super units if used correctly....I luv them,but sadly micromangement skills r not up too much yet http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
Just wondered how many uses they have and how to get the most out of these units?

My khan may have somethin to add here http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

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Grey Wolves (http://www.totalwar.club.tip.nl/)
FastCub

The gun monkeys seem to interpret the use of CA quite badly, they tend to use it in a long line along with muskets and use it like any other missile. Whatabigmistake http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

CA are not only missiles first of all. They are quite good at hand to hand and when the melee battle commences some CA at the rear/flank will do good and may even win you a battle. Remember all cavalry give a morale penalty to units when they charge.

But returning on their missile use; CA are to be used at the flanks to lure enemy sa/muskets to them and make the enemy panic and confuse. Plus when positioning them at the flanks you can easily attack with them at the rear/flanks. When shooting I like using CA like this:
/ \---->> this should be on other side
/ _ _ _ _ \

The diagonal lines are the the CA. They are to shoot muskets and believe me; lateral shooting is much more effective than a single long missile line.

Use CA in hand to hand at the heat of the melee battle and use it to rear/flank the enemy and re-enforce weak points in your melee area.

Last but not least CA are especially notorious to physcologically defeat the enemy by confusing him and make him panic. A good amount of fast moving CA at the flanks will make any un-prepared general shake...and he will make many errors, and you take advantage from them. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif Months ago I used to be beaten by Magy with 8 CA...one of his secrets is to confuse you with CA and attack you at the peak of confusion and panic. Any army would die...

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Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.totalwar.org/kenchikuka)
evil is within us... http://www.totalwar.org/site/emomalta.gif

[This message has been edited by Terazawa Tokugawa (edited 07-11-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Terazawa Tokugawa (edited 07-11-2002).]

[Vanya]

LOL

Vanya, when he stoops to getting non-gunnies, puts CA in wedgies and orders full charge on enemy taisho.

Wet gunnies more reliable though...

http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif

[FasT]

Remember all cavalry give a morale penalty to units when they charge....Even to YA and YS?

[Wavesword]

spears negate CB but I think LongJohn2 said that all infantry got morale penalties in the code- I'll bump a relevant thread

[Dionysus9]

Quote Originally posted by Terazawa Tokugawa:

using CA like this:
/ \---->> this should be on other side
/ _ _ _ _ \

[/QUOTE]


This technique can be utterly devastating if all enemy ranged units are already engaging your ranged units. Lets say you both have 4 musks and 2 samarchers which are all shooting at eachother. You have an additional 2 CA that can fire on the enemy musks without getting shot at.... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif ahhh, the glory of collecting heads...

The enemy ranged units will be quickly depleted and then he will have to charge you.

[Kocmoc]

i dont see many guys who can control CA, even on iron the most guys are not able to use this unit in a nice way....

the most guys just bring them rigth and left
to support theyr other shooters to kill the enemys guns.....

on iron u are handicaped with this unit, some hills make it more attractiv...

anyway u still need to controll it!

1 important thing is, this unit, if u use them good, is a risky thing coz the autorout....

koc



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Grey Wolves (http://www.totalwar.club.tip.nl/)

[Tankdogg123]

I tend to use cav arch a lot but they can just put the range unit in loose to reduce losses plus if a gun catches a cav arch it has a big kill rate for each shot. also when at hon 0 they can hinder you're melee sometimes coz they run quite easy. Sometimes they even run when charging the guns. I find arch much more effective for a range battle. Also u can keep charging the cav arch with cav to stop it having a steady and clear shot if u know what I mean. The arch can keep shooting while the cav arch has to retreat a bit. But the very good players annoy the shit out of me sometimes with cav arch and i can usually do thsi to newbies but struggle against other players.

Quote Originally posted by Dionysus9:

This technique can be utterly devastating if all enemy ranged units are already engaging your ranged units. Lets say you both have 4 musks and 2 samarchers which are all shooting at eachother. You have an additional 2 CA that can fire on the enemy musks without getting shot at.... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif ahhh, the glory of collecting heads...

The enemy ranged units will be quickly depleted and then he will have to charge you.[/QUOTE]

Aye that tactic is great http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif


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Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.totalwar.org/kenchikuka)
evil is within us... http://www.totalwar.org/site/emomalta.gif

[Krasturak]

Gah! Gni! Gnish!

This pesky method is ho-hum compared to the Great Glory of Krast's ten-gun army.

Then, not need compliated auto-rout inducing retrograde maneuvers; simply march closer and closer until enemy line melts into horde of fleeing fools.

Gah! Gnash! Ywa!

[FasT]

LOL Krast! i have seen ur 10 guns army GAH!
Run for the hills http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

[MizuKokami]

ca's have been, in times past, a pain in my flanks many times. is the best bet when faceing them to sit tight, letting them run out of ammo, or has someone had any success in outmanuevoring them that is some sort of actual strategy?

[This message has been edited by MizuKokami (edited 07-12-2002).]

[Dionysus9]

CA Routing -- The problem with CA routing is exacerbated by the common practice of reducing their Honor to 1 or even 0. I use H2 Cav Archers myself, and they will still rout when charging guns head on (especially if the CA is depleted and the guns have a good number of men left). This result can be diminished by pumping up the Honor and Armor of the CA to the point that they sustain acceptable (non-rout-causing) damages on their headlong charge. The problem is cost v. benefit. If you forget to micromanage your expensive CA then they will get torn to shreds after several volleys, or cut up by YariCav. Thats why I use H2 CA, you have to charge most musket units from a flank [i.e. micro-manage, takes some time too], and w/o any spear facing the CA [after h2h combat has begun], but they are still a lot less expensive than NagiCav and do a good job at eating ranged units.

Getting rid of pesky CA--
Kokami,

As someone noted above, CA are very susceptible to musket fire. Muskets vs. CA in a ranged battle, muskets always win. If someone is harrassing you w/ CA, target the horses w/ a musket unit and they will have to back off. This can be a game of cat and mouse, and it is a way for the CA player to force you to micromanage your muskets (which most people arent good at). Meanwhile, other orders need to be issued and the better micromanager will come out w/ an advantage.

Here is a tactical trick which sometimes works to rid yourself of pesky CA. First, try the musket game...if that is too much work for you, double click some YariSams at the CA...wait a minute. YS are running over there (he isnt scared, he can run back). Now double click some YC at the CA... both your spears should be en route now... Now he is starting to worry. Of course his CA will skirmish back when your YC arrive, but with the Yari Sams around you are assured that he will not try to attack your YC with his own Cavalry. So the CA are forced back, his YC stay put, and you can bring your YS and YC back to your lines. This tires your troops a bit, but after 1 or two of these forays, the CA will normall stop pestering you.

Another technique is to get some YC around behind the CA, and charge their rear/side flank. They skirmish directly away from your YC, so if you can get the angle right, they will actually skirmish toward your line of muskets. However, even most new players see this coming and withdraw their CA a bit.

If you can combine all three techniques it works even better... i.e. send the YS out first...wait till they are being targeted by the CA (maybe put em in loose form)... now run your YC out on the flank and try to get behind the CA (a bit at least) while you also target the CA with a musket unit.

Bringing so much to bear on a tiny little CA will often frighten them off, or at least make your opponent think twice about pestering you with them.

In fact, the YS/YC combo attack on a CA has been so successful for me, I can sometimes use it to start H2H combat instead of a full charge. You can often get the opponent to march an H2H unit out to fight your YS while his YC goes after your YC...(all this effort to keep his CA where they are)... that is your signal to charge all your H2H units at the spot the fighting will be. If the fighting is in the middle, or closer to your line then his, you will have an advantage.

So, I think that there are definately some ways to get rid of pesky CA-- the problem is that it can take a LOT of your order-issuing time to do it. If the enemy counterattacks on the other side of the map and you dont notice it because you are dicking with his CA--the whole plan backfires.

Depending on your style of play and ability to issue orders quickly, you may want to simply absorb the CA arrows.

[MizuKokami]

hhhhhmmmmmmm food for thought http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Still tho, experienced players would make sure your YS and YC die more than his CA... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

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Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.totalwar.org/kenchikuka)
evil is within us... http://www.totalwar.org/site/emomalta.gif

[rageXghost]

CA is probably one of the most valuable units on the battle field.
and used correctly will win the battle for you I've always had one
problem with CA if you charge a unit of honour 0 CA at
a unit of honour 4 YS if u hit them in the back they would run.
yet 0 CA are basically new recruits the lower soldier you can have
and a new recruits would never charge horses straight at Spearman
even at their back and if you fired guns at low honour horseman
they would rout and never return yet CA honour 0 will return.
I can understand honour 2 CA they are soldiers with some experience.
to me this is a another bargain the game but that's just my opinion


http://www.gdarkness.com/4degrees/skullani.gif

Ghost



Keeper Of the Crypt

[Kocmoc]

LOL @ Dion http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

guy, first u talk just about ur damn iron!
and second, this is stupid!

YC is a bit faster than CA but this isnt enought to get this CA, u would need more space ti chase them down, but before u get them u come into my gun-range... YES, u forgot, that the other player has more units than this 1 CA! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

and this spears Rofl. u guys use normaly h7+1w spears, thats around 1000 koku for 60 men unit....now my CA hit 3 till 4 mens per volley....this means 50 koku per volley.
this means 4 volleys and i have my money nearly back for my CA....
and on the other hand, there are players wich arent stupid and wont shoot ur spears if they are cheap or in open formation!

and what plz will u do if i dont shoot this spears? hmmm no, thats not a tactic!

many tactics and thoughts are still unknown here.... the normal standart use of ur army will work vs average players but not vs good players.

coz u see the units still as units, i see the units as money! (ofcourse a guns is more worth than 250 )

i faced latly a very good player and won with 2 CA vs 4 guns and 2 or 3 archers!
it was light rain and just the use of my units brought me more kills.

to higher the honour so ur untis wont get autorout isnt the way it still happend to me.

if u come near the borders or in back position of ur enemy ur units can rout even h9 units.

koc

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Grey Wolves (http://www.totalwar.club.tip.nl/)

[Cheetah]

This topic will be transfered into the Pre-archives forum soon. This is your last chance to add your ideas to the discussion.

[This message has been edited by Cheetah (edited 08-05-2002).]

This is a fine post. Thanks for archiving it.

In MI/WE 1.02 CA will shoot as good as SA, unless the CA is being shooted upon. CA will give all the advantages a cav gives, mainly the use of speed, flanking/rearing bonuses and the art of physcologically defeating the enemy, which the SA only dreams of.

My conclusion is simple, CA aren't just an alternative to SA. The fact that all top players make extensive use of this unit is a testament to the usefulness of the Cav Arch. Download some of Mag's battle recordings and see by yourself! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

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Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.totalwar.org/kenchikuka)
evil is within us... http://www.totalwar.org/site/emomalta.gif

[JeRrYgArCiA]

Funny i posted exact same topic a long time ago.... I also use cav archers as bait, i put my nag cav behind them, along with a yari sam and no dachi unit, the enemy usualy see's this as a big enough threat and sends afew melee and cav units at the group. then i flank with the nag cav, shoot up the melee on the way in, and kill the cav units with my Yari Sams, No dachi are there if they send yari's down..so far this has worked 2/3 times..

[Mithrandir]

Quote Originally posted by Cheetah:
This topic will be transfered into the Pre-archives forum soon. This is your last chance to add your ideas to the discussion.

[This message has been edited by Cheetah (edited 08-05-2002).][/QUOTE]

ideas...didn't state it had to be related to the topic...

my ideas : how about giving me a personal Icon once I do some work for the
Org, and another idea, send me all your money... great ideas imo...



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[Dionysus9]

I'm not saying you can get at his CA to kill them, only to push them back.

Normally attacking CA with YC will draw a cavalry response, which is why you have YS in the area.

And yes, Kocmoc, you are better than me. But I am not an idiot, and would like take a run at your CA myself.

[LittleGrizzly]

well bach as u pointed out if u can use group commands ur not a newbie so u aint http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
but..... you also said ur a newbie if u cant beat me and u cant beat urself so u r a newb http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif

back on topic CA r extremly effective and people who talk about archers being better thats rubbish! at first when ur crap they are you need to practice with them and in battles before ive got 170 kills with just 1 unit now for a h0 cav arc thats good value for money whereas my expensive melee h5 nods + h6 sams in 8k got 20 kills each!

[tootee]

One should know when the CA should shoot and when they should fight (and not just going for those routed). Same go for SA. I'm surprise players after playing MI for, what ..6 mths and more?, never learn to use these range units in melee, the circumtances they should be called to fight H2H. Many opportunities missed, when a simple quick manovure and charge to the flank/back by CA would have rout the enemy.

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tootee the goldfish,
headmaster of Shogun-Academy (http://shogun-academy.tripod.com)
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[Kocmoc]

good point tootee!

but the SA in h2h-fight, phew...thats very risky they are very weak with h0.

the CA is pretty good to give the enemy the last kick, with this 11 charge bonuss its teribel good....


well, and dion, ofcourse ur NOT and idiot and i didnt said this... but ur tactic wont work... and all is diff. with some hills on the map...

koc

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Grey Wolves (http://www.totalwar.club.tip.nl/)

[Vanya]

GAH!

Youz mean to say CA can shoot arrows too? Maybe I have missed something by always charging them in wedgies... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/confused.gif

GAH!

[Dionysus9]

Hills of course change everything.

I guess I was just feeling like an idiot because you are right. Against a skilled opponent, my tactics (as stated) will not work.

But I'd still like a chance to redeem my tactics against you on a flat 1v1. They might work better than you think with a few tweaks here and there.

[tootee]

Quote Originally posted by Kocmoc:

but the SA in h2h-fight, phew...thats very risky they are very weak with h0.
[/QUOTE]

Yes, the SA is comparatively less effective than CA at H0. But at times, situations call for them to engage. Put them in wedges, and charge in. With their charge bonus of 2, plus I suspect the charge will have some morale penalty on the receipents as well, can either give the enemy the scare and rout them with the impact kill. Of cos that also means removing the archer morale penalty on the enemey since they are not firing anymore. Timing is everything. But at least a player should appreciate that these range units can be useful in H2H at the right time. It's just up to the player to decide when it is time.

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tootee the goldfish,
headmaster of Shogun-Academy (http://shogun-academy.tripod.com)
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Agreed on timing, it's very important, probably more important than the army itself. To time well you need a very good control of your army and months of play...

SA can be a nuisance to your army if you don't time well...if they rout they give a relevant morale penalty to your nearby units. And why using SA's charge bonus of 2 when CA got 10 (2 more than a No-Dachi!) http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

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Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.totalwar.org/kenchikuka)
evil is within us... http://www.totalwar.org/site/emomalta.gif

[Puzz3D]

tootee,

You'll want to use low honor SA in melee as a last resort. If they rout, your nearby units suffer a big morale penalty and the proximity penalty the SA were projecting on the enemy is gone along with the morale support they were providing to friendly units in front of them.

One thing of note about v103 stat is that the SA have 1 point less of hth combat as compensation for the increase in arrows from 28 to 36. Now you can get the hth combat back with an upgrade, but it will cost you koku. The unit is more of a ranged unit than a hth unit in v103. The v103 has a stronger rock, paper, scissors than the v102.

Also, I just finished a large 4v4 v103 battle on Horselands where I took an H2 CA unit as part of my army. It finished the battle as my high kill unit with 170 kills out of a total of 652 which was well above any other of my units the closest of which was an NC with 95 kills.

Puzz

[Cheetah]

Cat & Wolf, please transfer this thread into the Pre-archives forum.

[Cheetah]

bump

[Papewaio]

I find CA are not front line troops.

They go down to all other calvary by themselves.

They can be beaten by spears in pairs or in singles if the CA have no support.

Archers beat them in a firefight.

Thats the bad points.

The good points is that in attack you can use the CA to manoeuvre your enemy with hit and run sniping on the flanks. Or if they are camping you can use CA to draw them out.

In defence I typically use a pair of CA on one flank far away from my main defenders. This tends to split the attacker and makes him take longer to manoeuvre into an attack. Allowing more time to set up defences and rain down arrows.

If the attacker doesn't split and just marches straight at the large force the CA sweep in behind and pepper the enemy. If the oppourunity presents itself my CA will charge the archers.

And when the enemy start to rout the CA are as good as Yari Cavalry to mop up the running hordes.

If the perfect cup of coffee is the particular mix of units in your army, then the CA are the sugar. Add to taste, just don't relie on them for extra kick caffeine.

[MagyarKhans Cham]

horse archers suck, i wonder why people are still misusing them

(and dont tell me i am a lie-er)

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Quote I gallop messages around, dont track me I can bring war as well[/QUOTE]