View Full Version : Creative Assembly The moral effect of the cavalry charge
There is much discussion about the weakness of the cavalry charge in STW/MI (i.e. they should be able to break the lines, kill the enemy without stopping, etc.), however, I think that one crutial ingredient was not mentioned so far. IMO the cavalry charge should impose a moral penalty on the enemy in the same way as guns do. Of course, the value of this penalty should depend on the unit type. For example, there should be a considerable penalty for ranged units but an almost none-existent for Ysams. When a bunch of units stands together the penalty should be distributed over these units. So, by putting your Ysams close to gun units one could decrease the amount of penalty that the guns receive, etc. However, on the other hand, a lone, low honour gun unit should break and run even before the cavalry gets there. And when they run they should run! I dont want to imply that one should not be able to rally them at all, but it should be very difficult and time consuming.
IMO this change would render gun armies more vulnerable to cavalry heavy armies thus could lead to a more interesting (balanced???) game, even without the decrease of the power of guns (i.e. without the decrease of accuracy; increase of reload time, friendly fire, etc).
It would appear that your ideas have more a basis in gun emasculation than in any thing such as realism or history. Therefore it is possible for me to say that I personally dislike this idea simply because I do not feel it is the best way to bring guns into balance.
Matt
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I agree. Cavalry charge should rout missile and non-yari units quickly to compensate for the bs of an entire 120 man horse charge on wedge stopping the instant the 2nd or 3rd row of the wedge hit the enemy. IRL, the horses would punch through completely without stopping.
Well, in my experience they do rout missle units quickly. I can recall an online game in which one moment I looked and there was my musketeers and the next I looked and there were no musketeers instead there were a bunch of Yari Cav having the time of their life (this was a rather laggy game..).
He's basically saying that the near proximity of charging cavalry should cause missle units, specifically those with guns, to wet their pants and have to go home and get clean clothes so they are out of the battle for at least 15 minutes if home is nearby. This is merely a weird and very difficult to implement "fix" for the gun problem, it has nothing to do with IRL.
Matt
go on custom battle, get 1 archer vs 1 yari cav.
Charge the yari cav on the archers in any formation. Wedge, close, loose, 1 row of 60, 10 rows of 6, even 2 rows of 30 men, on hold formation order, on engage at will... it still doesnt matter, the whole cavalry unit just STOPS when it hits the 3 row deep archer unit and its VERY hard to get the entire yari cav unit to really disengage from them, the units only really follow the unit leader.. if he stays (and duh, hes the one in the very front, he'll be engaged the whole time), they all stay. The Archers do not rout in this case, they stay and fight it out. The yari win in the end (for some weird reason, IRL a man on a stational horse holding only a spear on one side is very easy to cut down if you're holding a sword on foot.. think fighting inside a phone booth with a knife while the other guy has a spear), but they lose 1/4th of their men and kill 50% of the archers before they rout the archers.
Both were honor 2 units, no bonuses, on flat terrain.
This is why we say that the very notion of having a horse unit charging a foot unit that has no long spears (archers, no-dachi, monks, naginata) should make these units rout almost the instant the cavalry hits them. It would realistically portray the cavalry unit punching through their formation (by routing the entire unit breaks up and runs away) and not get "stuck" if a few of the horsemen remain fighting when you order the cavalry to feint a retreat (or retreat to flank another unit somewhere else). In short, the cavalry would be used AND have the effect they had in real life.
btw, do you have a guide as to what the antiunit.txt values represent? Ive been trying to tweak things too but have no guides http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif
never mind, found it. Useless for what i was looking for.
AntiUnit.txt is a set of values the AI uses to decide what to bring to battle to counter certain units.
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Well, in six trials, of 60-man YC charging 3-deep 80-man SA, twice the SA routed almost instantly, once the YC lost 23, once they lost 11, once they lost 4 and once they lost 5.
So basically this goes to further show why Shogun - Total War 2 is called Shogun - Total War 2. The link is in my sig.
Matt
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Here is my motivation for this mind-boggling proposal. Of course it comes form John Keegan. He writes in „The Face of the Battle” about the French cav charge at Waterloo:
Practice against poorer troops had let them to expect a different result: a visible shiver of uncertainty along the ranks of the waiting musketeers which would lend their horsemen nerve for the last fifty yards, a ragged spatter of balls over their heads to signal the volley mistimed, then a sudden collapse of resolution and disappearance of order – regiment become drove, backs turned, heads hunched between shoulders, helot-fleet flying before the faster hooves of the lords of the battle: this, in theory, should have been the effect of such a charge. This process was more nearly realised in many places along Wellington’s front than the magnitude of the ultimate cavalry debacle suggests. „The first time a body of cuirassiers approached the square into which I have ridden” (it was the 79th Regiment’s) wrote a Royal Engineer officer, „the men – all the young soldiers - seemed to be alarmed. They fired high and with little effect, and in one of the angles there was just as much hesitation as made me feel exceedingly uncomfortable.” Morris, a sergeant of 71st, testifies to the power of the psychological shock-waves emitted by these mounted onsets. …
Now, of course this is not exactly about the Sengoku Jidai period, but explain me, that why should the gun wielding ashigaru behave differently from their Napoleonic counterparts? I think that human nature is the same, and thus the psychological effect of the cavalry charge should be very much the same as well. Would you, Matt , expect these poor peasants –without any proper weapons to fight back at close range- to sit and wait till the cavalry guys get them, or to turn and make a run for it?
BTW, game balance was not my prime motivation when I posted this topic. Although I think that the game could be more balanced if this effect were incorporated in it, I started this topic because I do believe that the cav charge had this kind of moral effect.
theforce
05-10-2002, 22:53
He has a point there. I mean some guns in 3v3 or 4v4 games are left alone and keep shooting at incoming cav even if they have no friendly unit near them. Now in real life they would run.
To cut it short l would like each unit to have a morale penalty that is specific to the unit attacking it. Like cav would have a morale penalty from ys, yc etc
Wm and nd from hc and this goes for every unit etc :P (lol l am bored).
Also a unit should get different amounts of morale boost depending on which unit is near them and their numbers http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
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Don't use only honour, use theforce, too.
Wavesword
05-10-2002, 23:20
Historically speaking there should be a parallell penalty for the rout of any unit with prestige- cf the guards at Waterloo or the elite french household cavalry by some English Dragoons in one of Marlbrough's battles- Blenhim I think.
Dionysus9
05-10-2002, 23:26
Im not so sure that a full unit of musks would break and run in the face of a cav charge. I for one would stand and fire...running assures death. If you turn your back and TRY TO OUTRUN A FRIGGIN HORSE you are going to DIE. That's pretyt obvious to anyone. If you stand and fire, not "ineffectively high", but right at the damn cav, you have a chance.
Finally, I agree that making ranged units route faster is not a good fix. THE PROBLEM IS THAT UNIT MOVEMENT IS BASED ON THE UNIT LEADER.... fix that issue and the cav will be much more effective (guns will get cut down faster and will route as a result of casualties, not some "mystical fear" of horses). Of course unit movement is a big issue to fix....
Quote Originally posted by Dionysus9:
I for one would stand and fire...running assures death. If you turn your back and TRY TO OUTRUN A FRIGGIN HORSE you are going to DIE. That's pretyt obvious to anyone. If you stand and fire, not "ineffectively high", but right at the damn cav, you have a chance.
[/QUOTE]
Dionysus9, you speak from experience and what you say might hold in case of experienced units. However, I was talking about low honour, i.e. unexperinced units.
BTW, it is not a "mysterious fear", it comes from human nature. Try to stand up against a charging horseman.
Finally, when you run the aim is not to outrun a horse, which is of course impossible, but to outrun your own comrades!!!! What a difference it makes!
Last but not least, I made a few test runs H0 Muskets vs H2 YC. Ironing board, good weather, 60 men units, etc:
Out of six trials I managed to rout the H2 YC three times! And when when the cav charged home my H0 musketeers were willing to engage in a H2H fight with H2 YC!!!! On average the cav had to kill 17 musketeers before the musk turned and run. And these were H0 musketeers!!!!
Here are the results, kills/men lost from the point of view of my muskeeters:
11:19
17:0 (cav routed)
19:0 (cav routed)
17:18
19:0 (cav routed)
26:14
So, even when the YC were victorious they lost 1/3 of their menpower! And some wonders why gun armies are so powerful ...
Well, I have to add that the AI could have strated the charge earlier, so one can approach a Musk with smaller loses. However, this wont change the fact that even H0 musk are ready to fight against H2 YC , and that the cav have to kill at least 1/3 of the musks before they run.
[This message has been edited by Cheetah (edited 05-10-2002).]
No no khan you still dont understand. Look at what happens when the yari cav. hits the archers. A HORSE charge is stopped on its tracks by 2-3 rows of footmen. The footmen fight ON with the cavalry until they rout (an average of 5-10 seconds of fighting). In that time the cavalry unit is STUCK without being able to retreat. Im not questioning that the cavalry will rout the archers, I question the archer's ability to stop the horses for more than 2 seconds. No unit without long spears should be capable of doing that, yet in the game they can, its a hole in the game design.
Also, look at your test.. 1 cav. vs 1 archer. No other units around. In a fight vs AI or another decent player, there would be a yari sam/ashi unit near it. I use that hole in game design to trap enemy cavalry.. I let the other players charge my archers, when they get hit I order my archers back (about 5 to 10 archers stay behind getting creamed by the yari cav, but the majority of the archers run back a few dozen yards and get clear) at the same time my yari sams charge the cavalry..which CANT retreat because its STUCK fighting my 10 sacrificial archers I left behind. My yari then kill the entire horse unit.
NOW, if the archers were to ROUT when charged by cavalry in the same fashion as yari ashigaru honor 0 rout when attacking by honor 6 monks... then the cavalry would not be able to get stuck by spearless foot units... spearless foot units would not be able to stop the entire cavalry charge.
Dionysus9
05-11-2002, 01:04
You are right Cheetah, that the goal of a single routing soldier is to simply outrun his comrades, that I'd probably get scared to see 60 YC chargin me, and also that inexperienced troops are more likely to shit their pants and run....
[Actually, the game design takes the latter into account as H5 Musks in HOLD will stand and fight cav for a long darn time (too long perhaps).]
Another major contributing factor to the problem-- Cavalry should not have any trouble disengaging from foot soldiers (even spears, really). Back your horse up a few steps, turn and run...
Another issue-- Spears are most effective against a cav charge when planted in the ground and braced at an angle...this kills the horse, but what of the men? Some will be crushed by the falling horse, others taken out quickly as they try to get up--but not every man. I'd like to see some horsemen w/out horses running around making kills ... now THEY would have some trouble disengaging, but the rest of their unit (w/ horses) could still take off. High honor Ycav w/out horses could sacrifice themselves (they know they are dead anyway)so that their unit could disengage...
Frankly Cheetah your test is totally invalid. I just went and tried it myself-- the AI YC *walks* through about half of the musket's range, thus exposing itself to many effective volleys. If they would CHARGE I am certain you would have no problem.
And the accounts of cavalry charges you are quoting are after the infantry in question is already under a great deal of stress, simple as that. If the muskets in question in STW were under a great deal of stress, their volleys WILL be ineffective (I've watched), and they WILL rout quickly, often before impact.
BTW those accounts are from PAST battles. AT Waterloo, when the infantry was NOT broken BEFORE the cavalry charge (though they were most certainly under stress), the cavalry charge failed (again and again, at great cost). So there ya go.
..
And the mere fact that in your tests the YC routed a couple times is proof enough that the gunmen aren't exactly nuts for, well, sticking to their guns.
Also note that gunmen in the actual Sengoku period were generally veteran spearmen who had just switched weapons. Not green conscripts by any stretch.
Matt
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Khan7 , please reread the last few sentences of my previous post. I help you to find it:
Quote Originally posted by Cheetah:
Well, I have to add that the AI could have strated the charge earlier, so one can approach a Musk with smaller loses. However, this wont change the fact that even H0 musk are ready to fight against H2 YC, and that the cav have to kill at least 1/3 of the musks before they run. [/QUOTE]
MizuKokami
05-11-2002, 03:14
surely there should be someway to disengage your calvary, besides routing them, when in melee.
as for running threw enemy lines, everything i've heard of calvary is that they have the ability to trample over enemy units.(that is, any unit besides men with spears) i of course realize that my impression of calvary is probably due to too many movies, but still. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif maybe it can be set so that cav., when in melee, if their received to inflicted damgage ratio is high enough in favor of cav., they can continue to receive their charge bonus, and go a row deeper into the enemy lines. or, if that is too much/powerful for cav, their charge bonus could trickle down to half, then half that, and if the damage isn't high enough, for any reason, then they could get stuck.
i realize that a change like that is probably not available for us, due to whatever reason. but one can hope. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
longjohn2
05-11-2002, 03:16
There is actually a morale penalty for infantry being charged by cavalry, especially if its charged in the flank or rear, or charged while disordered.
If you do one on one tests with fresh units then the penalty won't make much of a difference, but if a unit is tired, has taken a few casualties from shooting, maybe has some enemy behinds its flank, then you will see units break before contact.
Dionysus9
05-11-2002, 03:36
And if memory serves me correctly, that is coming directly from the horse's mouth!
Good to see that someone "in the know" is taking in interest in our conversation.
Anyway, as far as Cavalry being able to disengage, I agree 1500% with you guys, have for months, this used to be a major pet peeve/rant topic of mine. It's ridiculous the way it is now. However, with STW2 the problem has been improved somewhat, to where Cav can *rout* and get away with only 4-10 men getting stabbed in the back. But hit and run cavalry tactics should be a reality, I'm fully with you on that point.
As for everything else, I would again direct your attention to the fact that with STW2 Archers have a tendency to break on contact. Also, when I did my own YC vs. Musk tests, the Muskets, if the YC reached them, ALWAYS broke on contact.
However there is a long history of non-pikearmed soldiers standing up to cavalry. They didn't always win, but they maintained their ranks and stood up to them. If it's really necessary I could pull a few historical examples, including one in which a bunch of unarmored rabble stood up to the finest and most feared cataphracts (and NO cavalry in Shogun is a cataphract) for an entire day (getting pushed back and back, taking very heavy losses).
And longjohn is quite right, pay attention to this guy.
Matt
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Being able to disengage cav without loss is not the answer. That would mean the cav could always get away from a stronger unit, such as YS, after it was caught and engaged. The way I look at it is that, once you send the cav in, it's committed to fight the enemy unit until it wins or looses.
The judgement you have to make before sending in the cav is one of timing: Cav charges a ranged unit and engages them. A YS or YA is sent to kill the cav unit. How close that YS or YA has to be depends on how long it takes the cav to rout the ranged unit. Judging this relationship correctly is part of the game tactics. If you misjudge, you loose your cav. I can tell you that this wasn't even looked at during the v1.02 beta because there wasn't enough time. There is also no way to set morale such that a single gun will run before contact if charged by cav and have that gun be of any use in a full battle situation. The guns would run away very early in the battle.
Using YC to frontally attack guns is supposed to fail in v1.02. YC is better suited for flanking and anti-cav tactics. The NC with its higher morale, armor and combat power is better suited for frontal assaults. Giving this capacity to YC would make the NC obsolete.
The alternate stat we've been referring to as v1.03 has not altered guns very much in any one category except their defend value which has been lowered substantially so that, if a unit succeeds in engaging the gun in h2h, the gun will rout very quickly.
I've seen a fresh, 60 man H2 unit of WM routed almost instantly by an H2 NC charging into its rear. The WM lost all 60 men while the NC lost none. I've routed many enemy units with rear cav charges in online games. My impression of the cav in v1.02 is that it's very strong.
MizuYuuki ~~~
[This message has been edited by Puzz3D (edited 05-10-2002).]
dunno khan, i put the STW2 data of yours and my yari cav still is unable to rout an archer unit on contact. They always duke it out for 10 seconds or so.. mainly until 50% of the archers are dead, then they break for it. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif
"Being able to disengage cav without loss is not the answer. That would mean the cav could always get away from a stronger unit, such as YS, after it was caught and engaged"
So the game isnt exactly modeling cavalry is it? Merely a fast unit with charge bonus and that LOOKS like a horse? The whole point of cavalry was it being able to get in..and get out. Sadly, here they only get in, then they get IT because they all STOP.
Longjhon, if you involved with STW dev, kindly try to fix this next series of games, cavalry should really punch through an archer unit and keep moving, not just stop on their tracks. They should kill on the move, not move to enemy unit, stop, fight,move again. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif
Of the six trials I ran, 3 I did with 5 deep instead of 6 deep YC. 2 of those, the Archers routed on contact.
Also you have to keep in mind Tac that YC really isn't that kind of Cav. They are not exactly "light", but certainly not "heavy".. I suppose you could call them "medium" cav, though I think I just made that word up. Basically they are lancers, and lancers are not supposed to be super deadly. You're thinking of Cataphracts, especially cataphracts that happened to use lances. You're thinking of Heavy Cav.
I'm not sure what you're getting at anymore, but everyone's entitled to a an opinion.
Matt
Papewaio
05-11-2002, 17:33
Quote Originally posted by Tac:
This is why we say that the very notion of having a horse unit charging a foot unit that has no long spears (archers, no-dachi, monks, naginata) should make these units rout almost the instant the cavalry hits them. It would realistically portray the cavalry unit punching through their formation (by routing the entire unit breaks up and runs away) and not get "stuck" if a few of the horsemen remain fighting when you order the cavalry to feint a retreat (or retreat to flank another unit somewhere else). In short, the cavalry would be used AND have the effect they had in real life. [/QUOTE]
I thought No-Dachi were designed to fight mounted warriors... the idea was to cut the horse at the kneecaps at a distance. But I'd be willing to put that in the 99% of crap one reads on the internet.
Naginata are fairly good polearms so I wouldn't expect them to run. Some of them are really just short spears not curved. But at the same time I'd like to see non spear units punched through and hit harder. But that modeling should be done in MTW I hope.
Yari Calvary would be armed with swords so even after the initial charge I'm sure they can still slaughter SA close in.
pape, a no-dachi or a naginata will NOT stop a cavalry charge. They will be able to inflict more casualties on the attacking cavalry than an archer unit of course, but not stop it dead on its tracks the way they do in the game.
Only a long spear like those of a yari sam/ashi are capable of stopping such a charge. thats my whole point. Even a naginata should get severe penalty when charged by a horse unit, ideally for the game they'd rout for 1 or 2 seconds then rally back in on their own (when the cavalry stops hitting them).
"the idea was to cut the horse at the kneecaps at a distance"
Distance? You seen how long a no-dachi is? You have any idea how fast a charging horse is? That no-dachi will have to be extremely good in his timing of the swing (and I still find a 120 man unit of no-dachi in close quarters being able to fight.. I mean, what they do? stab? hehe)... and even then he would only be able to cut 1 horse down before he gets skewered or trampled by another charging horse.. IF the horse he just cut down doesnt fall on top of him that is. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
The cav in v1.02 has a huge charge bonus. A YS or YA unit cancels the charge, but all the other unit types get hit by it. The way to make use of this charge is not with the wedge, but by using a wide front. That way more men are involved in the initial contact. Also, wedge formation lowers a unit's defend value which means higher rate of casualties which accelerates loss of morale. That's going to make the cav tend to rout sooner.
I think the problem is more one of how the formations work than how cav works. The elastic force holding the men together is possibly too great. I definitely think hold formation is unrealistically rigid.
MizuYuuki ~~~
I never charge the front of an enemy army with my cav...in most games it seems the two armies will sit infront of each other blasting away with their guns untill one side decides to charge....first usually with their cav in an attempt to drive off guns,the result of this however is allmost allways the complete destruction of the cavalry by yari infantry sitting right behind the guns,archers etc. whilst this is goin on the attacker then follows up his cav with his infantry when this happens i usually send my cav flying up the flanks to destroy the offending gunners then fall on the rear of enemy infantry, this usually has the desired effect of routing enemy units...alot of failed cav charges could probably just be put down to inexperience or poor timing.
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Move not unless you see an advantage; use not your toops unless there is something to be gained; fight not unless the position is critical......Sun Tzu the Art of War
well puzz, by doing a wide front and engaging all your horses you are virtually signing their death sentences. They become stuck fighting vastly inferior foot units (like archers) because they just stop to fight them. And they cant retreat because their leader is engaged.. once leader disengages he moves the un-engaged horses a few yards behind.. and waits for the rest of his unit.. which of course doesnt disengage and the leader and the rest of the units get trapped and massacred by an enemy spear unit.
Its so frustrating and so utterly ridiculous I dont even use cavalry anymore. It makes me sick to see that BS.
Konnichiwa,
Wide front: 15 wide and 4 deep. Cavalry is a precision tool. While I agree that they should cut through anything that hasn't a pike. A dense square of polemen should suffer a lot but be able to hold a bit.
I don't like it either that 1 man in a unit who ran into the enemy causes the entire unit to return and engage the enemypikes: especially when cavalry is about to strike the gunline.
A STW unit is a unit, and it behaves as such.
I don't think todays hardware would allow 60 individual soldiers (not in the way we want to see it here). I wonder whether it would be possible to compose a unit of 4 losely 'glued' together subunits. It would be 1 unit, but if situation requires it (cavalry charges it, 1 man is engaged but the player orders it to do something else) it could break. In the case of archers charged by cavalry the archerunit could break in 4 parts (suffering heavy casualties). In case of some cavalry 'sticked' in pikes, it could break in two (one fighting pikes other marching away). Hmm. When cavalry is engaged (not surrounded) routing them breaks off the attack immediately. Hard thing might be to rally them after that. A disengage command that does the same as rout (without the heavy morale drop ???) would work too.
Yuuki, correct me please.
While it does differ in a way whether a unit is in a square or in a single line (morale), I feel that the moralepenalty for being in a line should be much heavier (especially with cavalry around). A square protects against cavalry, a line against missilefire. Soldiers know that. At this moment, YSAM in line works like a fishing net.
Missilefire: unit square :-( unit line :-)
Cavalry near: unit square :-) unit line :-(
Both around: :-( in any formation
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Ja mata
Toda MizuTosaInu
Daimyo Takiyama Shi
http://www.takiyama.cjb.net
I don't think so Tac. You'll rout the ranged unit quicker because you'll get more initial kills. Once that happens you can pull the cav back. I agree that a wedge should punch right through and doesn't. I don't use wedge for that reason.
MizuYuuki ~~~
Papewaio
05-12-2002, 04:01
Quote Originally posted by Tac:
"the idea was to cut the horse at the kneecaps at a distance"
Distance? You seen how long a no-dachi is? You have any idea how fast a charging horse is? That no-dachi will have to be extremely good in his timing of the swing (and I still find a 120 man unit of no-dachi in close quarters being able to fight.. I mean, what they do? stab? hehe)... and even then he would only be able to cut 1 horse down before he gets skewered or trampled by another charging horse.. IF the horse he just cut down doesnt fall on top of him that is. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif[/QUOTE]
Not used in mass, but sort of a heavy weapon amongst a group of swordsmen/spearmen or a specialist tool when fighting horses in tight (like in streets or palisades)... the idea proposed was that the No-Dachi was to be used to hamstring the horses from a side position of from the rear.
I think the development of No-Dachi was more along the lines of a bigger sword has longer reach so it was developed for that until the longer swords become unweildy... the No-Dachi seems more of a ceremonial weapon or something used for executions then a dueling weapon... it may have still been used on the battlefield just not as an entire unit.
I just did a test. 60 H2 YC (me) vs. 80 H2 YS (gen) and 80 H0 SA. The enemy began marching towards me with the SA somewhat in front of the YS. I charged the SA, took out about 20 or 25 (myself no casualties) of them in melee and then galloped off when the YS charged up to support, losing 8 men in the process (but continuing to kill several archers, and holding up the entire spear unit from effectively pursuing due to one man).
I then galloped off to the side, and the archers changed facing to match. I charged a second time and routed them, galloping off before the YS could turn to meet me.
Then I charged the archers where they rallied (35 or so left), lost 1 man due to archery and routed them and annihilated them. Then I dallied along for several minutes allowing the YS to pursue me with all their hearts all across the map several times. When I saw that they were exhausted I galloped around, succeeded in gaining a partial flank and charged in. They beat me and only 22 of my YC were left to rout, but I took 21 disordered and exhausted YS with me.
I then did another test. My 60 H2 YC vs. 120 H2 YA (gen) and 80 H0 SA. They began advancing on me the same way as last time. I charged the SA and routed them on contact. I galloped back around and charged them where they had rallied, taking 3 casualties from archer fire and annihilating them.
I then did the same as I did with the YS, and upon engaging the exhausted farmer spearmen lost, but not before taking 32 of them with me.
I then did a test of my YC vs. just the 120 H2 YA. I ran around their flank in a column, spread out and charged. They had enough success in wheeling to where this did not work excellently, but I succeed in taking out 8 or 9 of them at a loss of 2. I then successfully disengaged, losing 4 in this process. I then ran around their flank again, depleting them to only 75 men before routing.
That is STW2 in action. The link is in my sig.
Matt
P.S.: Also had this battle in a campaign-- Rebels invaded Yamashiro with over 400 men, and I was a bit worried cuz all I had was my heir, 120 YA, 32 Arq and 41 YC. But they were all relatively high honor.
I took up a position on a nice hill at the rear of the map. The AI advanced on me with 2 units of YA and 80 archers. My Arqs opened fire, and after a few volleys had taken out 3 archers and a smattering of spearmen. I then directed their fire to the rear of the advancing force and charged with my YC. They killed about 15 or 20 in their initial engagement but the archers held, so I galloped them back and lost 3 men. Then I charged once more, and struck them with such force that they routed immediately, taking the YA (and their general) with them. At this point I was really starting to wonder why the AI had left a third of its force way 2 musket shots back.
Anyway, the rest of the battle was spent mainly in pursuit.
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[This message has been edited by Khan7 (edited 05-12-2002).]
Quote Originally posted by Tac:
"the idea was to cut the horse at the kneecaps at a distance"
Distance? You seen how long a no-dachi is? You have any idea how fast a charging horse is? That no-dachi will have to be extremely good in his timing of the swing (and I still find a 120 man unit of no-dachi in close quarters being able to fight.. I mean, what they do? stab? hehe)... and even then he would only be able to cut 1 horse down before he gets skewered or trampled by another charging horse.. IF the horse he just cut down doesnt fall on top of him that is. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif[/QUOTE]
I think the idea is to make the first 2 or three lines of the cavalry charge collapse. This will make the whole charge slow down or even stop and force the hand to hand combat which is more favourable to foot soldiers.
These anti-cavalry foot soldiers must be specially trained and usually carry sword a small shield. They use the shield to protect them from getting a lethal hit by the horses and from the attack of the horsemen. Ideally, they will have to move in between the horses (or make the attack from the side) and chop off the leg(s) of the horse or badly wound the horse at the leg(s) (just need one). Once the horse is hurt at the leg(s), it become unbalance and easily fall over. Once the first line of the cavalry fall, the second line will have a tough time to run over the falling horses plus the anti-cavalry foot soldiers. That make them become easy target for the foot soldiers (and the second line of the foot soldiers). By the time the third or fourth line get stoped, the charge is broken or slowed down significantly. Once the charge get slowed down, it loses the momentum and becomes ineffective.
[This message has been edited by pdoan8 (edited 05-12-2002).]
No, no, NoDachi are supposed to suck against cavalry, and they do, and it's all good. That discussion is closed so let's not get distracted.
Matt
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Shogun 2 has arrived! Check it out here (http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/Forum5/HTML/000398.html).
[This message has been edited by Khan7 (edited 05-12-2002).]
Yari`s kill cav and nods kill yari sams... no-dachi are designd to kill other infantry not cav...once a no-dachi gets inside the reach of a spear then he can pretty much kill the spearman at his leisure...the idea of spears against cav is that even the most well trained warhorse is gonna shy away from a row of sharp pointy things-they aint stupid.
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Move not unless you see an advantage; use not your toops unless there is something to be gained; fight not unless the position is critical......Sun Tzu the Art of War
Dionysus9
05-14-2002, 09:10
It seems like that is exactly what happens pdoan. Dachi will sure slow down a cav charge. But not only do they have to fight the horses--but also horsemen as well (although there is no sprite for that...yet)
It is not suprising then that "light" shock infantry would get trampled by a cavalry charge (yari cav esp.). But they can fight for quite awhile, enuf time to get some spears behind to route the cav and save your ranged units.
Quote Originally posted by longjohn2:
There is actually a morale penalty for infantry being charged by cavalry, especially if its charged in the flank or rear, or charged while disordered.
If you do one on one tests with fresh units then the penalty won't make much of a difference, but if a unit is tired, has taken a few casualties from shooting, maybe has some enemy behinds its flank, then you will see units break before contact.[/QUOTE]
Do spearmen also suffer this cav charge morale penalty?
Do infantry with charge bonus inflict such penalty too?
Do cav suffer cav charge morale penalty too?
Thanks Longjohn.
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tootee the goldfish,
headmaster of Shogun-Academy (http://shogun-academy.tripod.com)
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BTW those accounts are from PAST battles. AT Waterloo, when the infantry was NOT broken BEFORE the cavalry charge (though they were most certainly under stress), the cavalry charge failed (again and again, at great cost). So there ya go.
Matt
[/B][/QUOTE]
mmmh, at Waterloo the cavalry (like at Azincourt and Crecy) charged up on a hill. The gunmen (and archers) had a great defensive position. Moreover, the musket of 1800 was more effective than the same of 1600.
At Yena the french light cavalry was able to simulate a charge on the enemy front line then, just before the enemy volley, turn about 45° degree and hit the flank side of the enemy lines. I try to do this in several battle but my cavalry, when the turning order arrived, ROUTED!
I think that, generally speaking, in STW the cavalry is not so effective as in the reality...
Giuseppe
Clausewitz, a contemporary of Napoleon with extensive experience including actual fighting and commanding experience in portions of the Napoleonic Wars, and perhaps the greatest military expert that mankind has ever produced, stated in an offhand manner in the preface of his great work "On War" that cavalry should not be used against unbroken infantry. This was a basic precept of that era of warfare. Guns proceeded to be more and more accurate to the point where cavalry by the Civil War was ineffective in a head-on confrontation.. as it was during the Classical period before the rise of Cataphracts which would dominate the Middle Ages.
Matt
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Shogun 2 has arrived! Check it out here (http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/Forum5/HTML/000398.html).
Quote Originally posted by Khan7:
...that cavalry should not be used against unbroken infantry. This was a basic precept of that era of warfare...
Matt
[/QUOTE]
I agree with von Clausewitz, but the problem is wath means "unbroken infantry". IMO a double line of 30 archers (Warlord 60 men base unit) IS broken infantry, if opposed to a charge of 60 YC.
Of course this became not true when the archers are supported from pikemen infantry, or are placed on a hill or in a forest....
The problem is always the cavalry usage: in the Middle Age the cavalry dominate a large part of the battles, but lost in Azincourt, Crecy and agains the switzer pikemen.
In STW the cavalry has good chance to loose against archers in flat and open battlefield, and IMO this seems unrealistic
Giuseppe
Cavalry will not loose against unsupported archers in WE/MI v1.02. You can frontally charge archers with minimal loss to the cav. If the cav exposes its flank by moving horizontally in front of the enemy line, it will take a morale hit and may rout.
MizuYuuki ~~~
Quote Originally posted by Khan7:
Clausewitz, a contemporary of Napoleon with extensive experience including actual fighting and commanding experience in portions of the Napoleonic Wars, and perhaps the greatest military expert that mankind has ever produced, stated in an offhand manner in the preface of his great work "On War" that cavalry should not be used against unbroken infantry. This was a basic precept of that era of warfare. Guns proceeded to be more and more accurate to the point where cavalry by the Civil War was ineffective in a head-on confrontation.. as it was during the Classical period before the rise of Cataphracts which would dominate the Middle Ages.
Matt
[/QUOTE]
Matt, I agree with you that in the Napoleonic wars cavalry was almost useless against well-trained, unbroken infantry. But please take into account that the infantry of these wars were a kind of mixed gunmen/spearmen, i.e they had bayonets against cavs. Now, as far as i know the ashigaru gunmen had no bayonets or anything like this. That is, they were "pure" gunmen. For this reason, they should be more vulnerable to cavalry charge, both physically and mentally. Please correct me if I am wrong on this point, much depends on it.
BTW, in a recent MP battle my YC (though not fullsized, only 41 men)were routed by 2 gun units. The annoying thing is that they turned and run just a "few steps" before the guns. That is, instead of making a few steps forward to reach the "safety" of close combat, they turned and run exposing themselves to the same devastating gunfire through which they come. And there were no spear units behind the guns. To me this is a bit unrealistic, to turn a charging horse just before the guns, and there were no wall of spears not even a wall of bayonets ... Anyway, I won that battle .. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Quote Originally posted by longjohn2:
There is actually a morale penalty for infantry being charged by cavalry, especially if its charged in the flank or rear, or charged while disordered.
If you do one on one tests with fresh units then the penalty won't make much of a difference, but if a unit is tired, has taken a few casualties from shooting, maybe has some enemy behinds its flank, then you will see units break before contact.[/QUOTE]
Is this a special penalty resulting only from cav charge, or do they get the same penalty when a monk or NOD charge in the flank?
Dionysus9
05-15-2002, 22:28
As for Clauswitz, any thing he says is Gospel.
And as for bayonnettes, all of my men have them...I dont know about yours. I hit Alt left click and tell them "AFFIX BAYONETTES!".
But I think you are right, I dont think the ashi-gunners had bayonettes in feudal japan. Though it shouldnt have been difficult to affix a blade to the barrel, guns were so new they were probably putting their effort into accuracy/reliability. One would have probably thought that if Cav could close to H2H w/ muskets, they would be goners anyway (the musks)....better to spend R&D $$$ on killing them at a distance.
Well, if I was one of your 41 intrepid horsemen, Cheetah, and you told me to charge a whooole bunch of guns and I saw no support behind me and alot of guns in front of me and my comrades falling all about, I would so be like "NO WAY! You have GOT to be kidding me!! I'm outta here!!!" And beat a hasty retreat. Outnumbered and disordered against superior numbers of gunmen in close combat is not "safe".. just how long do you think it would be before some of those gunment reload and let loose more devastation?? And remember anyway that YC are essentially light cavalry.
Matt
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Shogun 2 has arrived! Check it out here (http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/Forum5/HTML/000398.html).
Cheetah,
A 60 man cav unit charges a 60 man musket unit which is in 3 ranks. The cav speed and musket reload has been chosen so that two 20 gun volleys can be fired before the cav reaches the muskets. How many casualties should the cav take from the two volleys? At how many casualties should the cav rout? At how many casualties should the musket rout? How long should it take to inflict those casualties on the musket? If I had answers to those questions, I could set the parameters of the muskets correctly.
An H2 NC or HC can charge a musket, reach it and destroy it. You won't succeed against two muskets because while the cav is fighting one musket the other musket is still shooting the cav.
MizuYuuki ~~~
MizuYuuki ~~~
Quote Originally posted by Khan7:
Well, if I was one of your 41 intrepid horsemen, Cheetah, and you told me to charge a whooole bunch of guns and I saw no support behind me and alot of guns in front of me and my comrades falling all about, I would so be like "NO WAY! You have GOT to be kidding me!! I'm outta here!!!" And beat a hasty retreat. Outnumbered and disordered against superior numbers of gunmen in close combat is not "safe".. just how long do you think it would be before some of those gunment reload and let loose more devastation?? And remember anyway that YC are essentially light cavalry.
Matt
[/QUOTE]
Who said that they had no support??? The rest of my army was following!!! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif Otherwise how could I win the battle?
Well, given the current stats I admit that this was a case of bad timing.
However, I still think that a full-sized YC should be able to charge home even against two units of gunmen ... well, at least I'd love to see my YC to charge home against the enemy gunmen http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif
Quote Originally posted by Puzz3D:
Cheetah,
A 60 man cav unit charges a 60 man musket unit which is in 3 ranks. The cav speed and musket reload has been chosen so that two 20 gun volleys can be fired before the cav reaches the muskets. How many casualties should the cav take from the two volleys? At how many casualties should the cav rout? At how many casualties should the musket rout? How long should it take to inflict those casualties on the musket? If I had answers to those questions, I could set the parameters of the muskets correctly.
An H2 NC or HC can charge a musket, reach it and destroy it. You won't succeed against two muskets because while the cav is fighting one musket the other musket is still shooting the cav.
MizuYuuki ~~~
MizuYuuki ~~~[/QUOTE]
Yuuki, you are asking some difficult questions ... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/confused.gif however, I'll do my best to answer them http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
BTW, I would expect the cav to be able to do a real hit and run work, as it was emphasised by Tac earlier. That is, to charge through the lines of the first gun unit, then without stopping to charge through the lines of the second gun unit, then regroup and charge back !!!
Quote Originally posted by Puzz3D:
Cavalry will not loose against unsupported archers in WE/MI v1.02. You can frontally charge archers with minimal loss to the cav.
MizuYuuki ~~~ [/QUOTE]
Agree. But sometimes, cav suffers heavy casualties. I had a battle where I attacked a castle defended by 41 (Ronin) archers. I had 2 full units of Ycav. Thats 120 men against 41 men. I took one of the Ycav and charged into the castle. By the time my cav made contact, they lost only 7 men (so 53 against 41 now). However, in the H2H combat with the archers, they lost 17 more before they could wipe out the archers. So the archers could kill one cav for every 2.5 men they lost in H2H. Btw, my cav were H4/W3/A3 commanded by a rank 4 Taisho.
[This message has been edited by pdoan8 (edited 05-16-2002).]
Whatever were you charging into a castle with Cav for??
Also, in SP Ronin archers are friggin pumped up, if you haven't noticed.
Matt
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Shogun 2 has arrived! Check it out here (http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/Forum5/HTML/000398.html).
[This message has been edited by Khan7 (edited 05-16-2002).]
Quote Originally posted by Puzz3D:
Cavalry will not loose against unsupported archers in WE/MI v1.02.
...
If the cav exposes its flank by moving horizontally in front of the enemy line, it will take a morale hit and may rout.
MizuYuuki ~~~ [/QUOTE]
OK, I didn't yet installed v1.02 (I just download it, and I hope it will resolve the teleported Star Trek reinforcement problem also!) :-)
Regarding the flank exposure I think you are responding to my previous posted message regarding french light cavalry charge at Yena. Well, I think that I could be able to make a dummy charge on a target and then redirect the charge on another target...
Giuseppe
Quote Originally posted by Khan7:
... in SP Ronin archers are friggin pumped up, if you haven't noticed.
[/QUOTE]
I didn't know that.
Quote Originally posted by Khan7:
Whatever were you charging into a castle with Cav for??
[/QUOTE]
120 horsemen against 41 archers, win for sure. But, I didn't expect that many casualties. Anyway, it was an experiment to see what type of unit can do better job (against missile defenders) if I need to end the siege.
two KS should do the trick given your situation?
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tootee the goldfish,
headmaster of Shogun-Academy (http://shogun-academy.tripod.com)
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I am workin hard to find out the true nature of the arquebus vs musket distinction. One thing is sure, these gunmen had no bayonets or anything like that. However, they had swords! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif surprising ... even if just on loan http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
"If the enemy close, because you will be replaced by men with spears, divide up to right and left. Remove the ramrod, sheathe the arquebus in the arquebus bag, and cross swords with them. Aim at the helmet, but if the loan swords have dull blades and are likely to snap, aim at the enemy's hands and legs and you can cut at them." (from S. Turnbull: Samurai Sourcebook)
Briotti,
You can redirect the cavalry to move across in front of the enemy line without routing. However, if the enemy line consists of muskets firing at the cav, it won't get far before routing. The combined negative morale effects of casualties, flanking, proximity and gunfire will rout the cav usually on the second volley it takes.
Cheetah,
I see what you're saying, and it would be nice to be able to charge through the first line of guns and attack the second or as you say disrupt both gun lines, turn around and come back through again which would prevent the guns from firing on advancing infantry.
Needless to say, the game engine doesn't work anything like that. The cohesive force of the unit prevents cav or anything else from getting through, and the individual men seek out opponents to engage once two units are meshed together. Particularly annoying is watching you entire cav unit, which was charging an enemy ranged unit, get sucked into a YS just because the front corner man caught the edge of the YS. This is where wedge formation can he helpful since catching the back corner man on the YS won't necessarily pull in the whole cav unit. Another thing to be aware of is that if a unit runs into an enemy unit that was not its target it looses the charge bonus. This is particularly disadvantageous to units with high charge values like ND and cav.
MizuYuuki ~~~
[This message has been edited by Puzz3D (edited 05-17-2002).]
Wavesword
06-20-2002, 03:22
BUMP, bom, bom.
I like this thread http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Cat & Wolf, please transfer this thread into the Pre-archives forum.
Wavesword
08-10-2002, 23:02
under title cheetah's greatest topics vol. 3
Wrath of God
08-13-2002, 00:56
Any of you guys actually been in a battle?
I have. Even when you are attacked by a few farmers in straw hats and no teeth, you are so scared you are shitting your pants and shaking. Your knees knock and you can't think. You are in a panic. The enemy appears to be invincible and all you can think of is you will never stop the attack, no matter what you do. You are also wondering if the morons you are with will be effective and work together to defeat the enemy before they kill you. You don't trust all your commrades to do so. Some guys forget to fire. Some guys scream and do nothing, some guys keep loading bullets even though the guns are already loaded, some guys simply freeze. A few, in fact the ones you wouldn't predict, do fire at the enemy. It is hard to hit something with a rifle, even when lying flat in a trench and aiming at a stationary target, so don't get the idea you can simply shoot the people who are running at you.
Ever been approached by a cantering horse? Even one horse? I remember once in Arizona I was looking at a few horses and speaking with the cowboy, and one trotted toward me. He said to be careful, and I got out of there as fast as I could--scared shitless.
The point is, when a hoard of cavalry are charging at anyone at any time, (especially archers), it is time to run away. Now I realize at Agincourt the French cavalry got terribly bogged-down in deep mud, being heavily armoured, and the archers made mincemeat of them, but that was an exception.
If you actually saw the battlefield at Waterloo, you would realize the French were approaching up gentle slopes, and relatively slowly. Furthermore, they attacked piecemeal and without combined-arms support. Still, they did break a square or two if I remember correctly, and they certainly scared the shit out of the defenders, who basically had nowhere to run to.
In summary, the archers should either break upon seeing the cavalry bearing down on them, or they should be cut-up and routed at the first shock of contact.
ShadesWolf
08-17-2002, 13:05
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