Javelins are a bit of a shock for an MTW vet

[Daevyll]

I'm used to javelins being among the most lethal things on the battlefield, but in the demo they dont seem to amount to much.
Elephants especially seem to utterly ignore them, even though Mr Helpful (you know, the paperclip with the roman helmet on) claims they should be effective against them.

Have there been any statements from CA regarding how much the balance in the demo represents what will be in the final product?

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

I can't even get my skirmishers to work...They just seem to leg it unless I turn off skirmish. I cannot believe that error hasn't been fixed yet.

[DisruptorX]

I'm used to javelins being among the most lethal things on the battlefield, but in the demo they dont seem to amount to much.
Elephants especially seem to utterly ignore them, even though Mr Helpful (you know, the paperclip with the roman helmet on) claims they should be effective against them.

Have there been any statements from CA regarding how much the balance in the demo represents what will be in the final product?

I actually felled an elephant with one volley from my heavy infantry. ~:) I don't think that's a regular occurance, though. However, against shielded gaul swordsman, my javelins did more damage than javelins in medieval seemed to do.

[Orda Khan]

I can't even get my skirmishers to work...They just seem to leg it unless I turn off skirmish. I cannot believe that error hasn't been fixed yet.

Yep they do leg it but leave them on skirmish because they run back. At fiest I thought 'Hey you haven't chucked anything...Come back!!' but they turned and ran back to fire. It is quite a large cycle I admit but perhaps they like a nice long run up to throw their javelins..

.......Orda

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

Thanks Orda.

[Jeanne d'arc]

Elephants are hard to penetrate with arrows, there skin is almost rocksolid so its almost impossible to have a vital hit with it.Javelins should pack a punch vs them but if the elephants are armoured then the javelins wont harm them much.

Even with todays sports arms its still hard to kill an elephant unless u can manage a headshot.

[Spino]

Yes, skirmishers and skirmishing seems exactly the same as it was in MTW. But skirmishers are supposed to do their best work prior to the battle lines coming into contact with one another, not after the fact! The skirmishers are so damn skittish in RTW that they almost always fail to do what they did historically unless you babysit them and do it manually. Once the battle lines have met I don't have time to babysit the skirmishers so I let the AI handle them.

[Patricius]

Skirmishing seems fine to me - maybe I need to look closer. Playing as either the Romans or Carthaginians or the Gauls with the Carthaginians on the field (via a mod utility) the elephants go bonkers fairly quickly. The Gaulish skirmishers seem quite good, in my opinion.

[Orda Khan]

Use of skirmishers and/or archers against elephants need not necessarily kill the beast but it could certainly help make him run amok ~;)

.....Orda

[econ21]

Jeanne d'Arc - not sure you are right about an elephant's skin. Someone posted a link here to a ancient history site saying elephant skins were quite easily pierced. Killing such a large animal with arrows or even bullets is a whole different matter of course (you would need to get a vital organ). The game seems to capture this quite well.

[Colovion]

Use of skirmishers and/or archers against elephants need not necessarily kill the beast but it could certainly help make him run amok ~;)

.....Orda

When watching the Raphia Time Commanders episode you can see archers as well as javs killing elephants rather effectively - unlike the demo where you can fire volley after volley of anything and the best result you can hope for is the elephants running amok.

[Nelson]

In the demo at least, whether you kill any elephants or not you need to fight them in open order away from your formed troops. If some velites spread out and attack there’s a chance they’ll fill the elephants with enough piss and vinegar to induce them to countercharge and pursue the fleeing skirmishers off into the wilderness. That way at least they will tire chasing a weak unit instead of stomping the main line or crushing a flank.

I did play the Romans at Trebia once when some principes dropped a charging elephant with a point blank pilum volley that set the beasts routing the other way. Generally though elephants raise seven kinds of hell if I don’t tie them up somewhere off to the flanks.

Vs other troops I’ve had some good luck with skirmishers and some poor results too. If the enemy stands still you can hurt him badly with ranged weapons. If the opponent comes at you then the skirmishers really must give way. When they are out of javelins they can still fight other light troops or even slip into the flank of some phalanx that is otherwise constipating your advance.

[DisruptorX]

Jeanne d'Arc - not sure you are right about an elephant's skin. Someone posted a link here to a ancient history site saying elephant skins were quite easily pierced. Killing such a large animal with arrows or even bullets is a whole different matter of course (you would need to get a vital organ). The game seems to capture this quite well.

That is a very good point that I do not beleive has been brought up. The elephants are enraged by the irration of the spears, but the chances of the spears actually killing it are very low. Even a normal rifle has trouble killing an elephant quickly.

[The Scourge]

Maybe if you get behind it ,and poke the spear up it's bum .that should get it plenty miffed.
Sorry ,it's late ,I am tired ,good night. :tomato:

Oh ,btw .Didn't the Romans use Trumpets to freak the elephants out at that last battle.(WAS it called Samo,or something?)

[Jeanne d'arc]

Someone posted a link here to a ancient history site saying elephant skins were quite easily pierced.
Well perhaps but not as easy as for example horse skins.Also behind the skin itself will be several layers of flesh, arrows wouldend seriously injure the beast(*), javelins should have some succes but not vs the armoured elephants me thinks.

(*)Arrows useless vs the elephant but what about its riders?A few arrow volleys should take out 1 or 2 riders in an elephant group causing the elephants to route maybe before they reach the frontline.

[discovery1]

Maybe if you get behind it ,and poke the spear up it's bum .that should get it plenty miffed.
Sorry ,it's late ,I am tired ,good night. :tomato:

Oh ,btw .Didn't the Romans use Trumpets to freak the elephants out at that last battle.(WAS it called Samo,or something?)

Zama. Scipio Used trumpets to scare Hannibals elephants,then he had the velites move forming gaps in his lines which the elephants run down towards the rear where they were taken down by light troops.

[The Scourge]

Zama. Scipio Used trumpets to scare Hannibals elephants,then he had the velites move forming gaps in his lines which the elephants run down towards the rear where they were taken down by light troops.

Thanks.

[andrewt]

They should just allow the javelins to be fired faster. In MTW, a lot of times, javelin units would wait until a large percentage of the unit is able to fire a javelin until the unit actually fires. It's like, for example, a 60-man kerns unit would wait until around say, 15-20 men are able to fire until all those 15-20 men fire at the same time. If an enemy unit got close to part of the unit, the entire unit never fires even the ones who don't need to move immediately. I think it might be better if each man individually just fires when he can. Also, I don't think that anybody took that long to fire a javelin. There's just too long a pause between after bringing the javelin into throwing position and actually throwing the javelin.

[shingenmitch2]

Sadly, javilins have never been modeled correctly for the TW series. With them so important in ancient warfare, I had hoped that they would put extra effort to make them work properly. ALAS, I now only hope that they get the game-play back to RTW standards...

Seems the years of development were spent building a bigger strategic campaign and 3D eye-candy, while making changes that actually hurt the core tactical battle.

[Oleander Ardens]

My experience with javelins in the Demo:


Against Elphants:

Relative little effect


Against heavy infantry:

frontally little effect against them
good effect and very good effect from the flanks and the rear resp.


Against heavy phalangites

frontally very little effect
good effect and very good effect from the flanks and the rear resp.


Against light infantry (Gaul Swordsman)

Good effect from the front
very good from the flanks and from behind


This was no scientific testing, which would be needed to determine the real power of the javelins. However it seems that the shields are more effective than in MTW, and that the raised Sarissas help too against javelins. This makes it harder to kill this guys frontally. But when I hit them from behind or the flanks the javelins seemed to do real good, perhaps even better than in MTW.

This relatives strenghts would reflect pretty much IMHO the effectivness of of the javelin in ancient warfare. Ceasar for example points out how dangerous the cross fire with javelins of the Emburons was for the out-rushing troops while their missiles didn't make that great impression when they remained in the large formation...

So Summa Summarum I#m very satisfied with the power of the javs and only the ability to bring down/cause to panic Elephants seems to weak. And this seems to be rather easy to fix -> Raphia

Perhaps somebody could post his scientific testing here, as I won't have no access to the demo for another week ~:(


Cheers

OA

[shingenmitch2]

my difficulty with the javelin hasn't been their damage as much as the inability to fire-on-the-run when moving toward an enemy.

Javelin skirmishers would charge toward an enemy and simultaneously discharge their missle when in range, and THEN retreat backward.

In MTW it was move stop, reload (?!) and then launch... ooops, but by that time (because jav. range was so short), the enemy had already counter-charged and gotten within the "skirmish" retreat range so the unit was running before it even threw. The only solution to this was to have it either STAND (and get slaughtered) or throw from behind an engaged line, which, in reality, should slaughter perhaps more of your own men then enemy since the Javelin is hitting them in the back (in the game this questionable tactic, however, did seem to work.)

[Daevyll]

After playing some more battles, I've found that as a poster above noted, shields seem to have more effect than in MTW.

Firing 3 full volleys from a 60-man units into a unit of Poeni infantry from the front resulted in 2 casualties (total, not per volley, so only 0.67 per volley ).
Later, firing just 1 volley into the same unit from the rear resulted in an impressive 8 casualties.

They still do nothing at all to elephans though.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

They should just allow the javelins to be fired faster. In MTW, a lot of times, javelin units would wait until a large percentage of the unit is able to fire a javelin until the unit actually fires. It's like, for example, a 60-man kerns unit would wait until around say, 15-20 men are able to fire until all those 15-20 men fire at the same time. If an enemy unit got close to part of the unit, the entire unit never fires even the ones who don't need to move immediately. I think it might be better if each man individually just fires when he can. Also, I don't think that anybody took that long to fire a javelin. There's just too long a pause between after bringing the javelin into throwing position and actually throwing the javelin.
I agree. That makes it very hard for a group of javelin skirmishers to be of any importance on the battlefield. The times are too long. Besides, I don't really believe that in History a group of Gauls would wait for every one in the group to be able to fire. They would just reach enough distance and discharge as fast as possible. Not that dancing problem we see in TW.



Sadly, javilins have never been modeled correctly for the TW series. With them so priminant in ancient warfare, I had hoped that they would put extra effort to make them work properly. ALAS, I now only hope that they get the game-play back to RTW standards...

Seems the years of development were spent building a bigger strategic campaign and 3D eye-candy, while making changes that actually hurt the core tactical battle.
That is my concern too. And for a long time now I'm more certain of that. Why focus on creating a new control system or new RTS cameras if the former system only needed a slight improvement? Why to waste time recreating the wheel while loosing the grip on the qualities that previous titles had in tactical terms? What was needed was an improvement on certain details, not a rebuild of the system. The formation alignement controls that we had in MTW and STW were so easy and intuitive to use, why change them now? Now we have ridiculous rush battles (running speed, very low morale, lack of alignement control, etc...).

BTW, the kill-hability of javelins against Elephants is inexistant. The only purpose of using javelin skirmishers against elephants is to sacrifice a group of them to lure them out of the main action. They serve no other purpose whatsoever...

My kill stats in 10 battles using 4 units of javelin skirmishers is about 50 kills for 1200 javelins trown!!! Not very good is it? :confused:

[BDC]

Javelins are actually useless. If in real life pilum didn't kill ANYONE, I'm sure the Romans would have stopped bother to use them. They may as well be throwing paperclips or something. It's like "Hey, I have a great idea, lets all stand here, spend ages aiming, throw a volley, kill no one, then get massacred!"

I really would have though they would have fixed them for RTW... Meh.

[Barkhorn1x]

Javelins are actually useless. If in real life pilum didn't kill ANYONE, I'm sure the Romans would have stopped bother to use them. They may as well be throwing paperclips or something. It's like "Hey, I have a great idea, lets all stand here, spend ages aiming, throw a volley, kill no one, then get massacred!"

I really would have though they would have fixed them for RTW... Meh.

Make sure your Principes/Hastati are in "Fire at Will" mode - they will throw their pilum when within range - but they do seem to be a bit underpowered.

I am convinced that the Romans are porked in the demo (to give the console crowd a quick fix/win) and hope to see a big change in the release code.

Barkhorn.

[Red Harvest]

I consistently get about 10+% kill rates with the first volley of pila against stationary phalanx. I would hardly call them useless. In Roman parlance it has effectively "decimated" the enemy unit before you engage.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

"Hey, I have a great idea, lets all stand here, spend ages aiming, throw a volley, kill no one, then get massacred!"
ROTFL :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

Funny!!! You are completelly correct. If the Romans had no results, they wouldn't use them, period. It's strange since in TC the javelins seemed overpowered.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

I consistently get about 10+% kill rates with the first volley of pila against stationary phalanx. I would hardly call them useless. In Roman parlance it has effectively "decimated" the enemy unit before you engage.
I don't. How do you do that? :surprised: I always use "fire at will" and "skirmish" off.

[DisruptorX]

Please also note that the difference between attack the front and attacking the sides in the demo is astronomical. Front attacks kill maybe one or two, but with back attacks i've massacred half a regiment of barbarian noble cavalry in less than a minute. Though, if you don't pin your enemy in combat, javelins take forever to "reload", as has been mentioned. The tactic of pinning+javelins, however, is practically a guaranteed win.

I've also noticed its like in MTW, when everytime the front rank of your gunmen fired, the ENTIRE unit would reload.....even the ones who hadn't shot. And also your men could reload, then move and have to reload again..... ~:confused: From what i've seen, thats back.

[Red Harvest]

I don't. How do you do that? :surprised: I always use "fire at will" and "skirmish" off.

I marched up and commanded them to throw pila. It has been a few days since I last tested it, skirmish was off I believe. Sometimes they would charge instead so I would pull back and try again. I was getting about 10% from frontal. They wouldn't throw the 2nd without considerable coaxing (they would charge after throwing the first, and I would have to call them back, then try again, and sometimes again, and again.) I was seeing every single man in the unit throw. Tried it vs. phalanx, and vs. other Roman infantry.

[TexRoadkill]

The Skirmishers are pretty weak on a frontal attack but the other Roman Inf do much more damage. Just get them close and set to Fire at Will like he mentioned. They will usually kill about 1 enemy per 10 javelins on each volley.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Red Harvest & TexRoadkill:

Ok, guys. Thanks. I'll try it like that.

[Kraxis]

Come on guys... The pila was effective, but it wasn't an ancient machinegun. It probably kill a few, but not really many.

Since the Imperial/Marian army carried one pilum as opposed to the two of the Republican/Manipular army, there must have been some consideration into the effectiveness of the pilum at actual killing.
The adopted tactic for the Imperial troops was simple. Advance in silence, halt, let enemy scream and yell, throw pilum and right away scream warcry and rush at them (possibly at the same time).
The result would be the enemies would have to raise their shields to cover themselves (only a fool would think his luck was great enough to avoid getting hit). A highly raised longshield, such as the gaullish scutum or any other large shield, would impair the vision to the front. So the result would be that the enemies would not be able to see the Romans advance, coupled with the warcry and the impact of the charge on a foe still reeling from a heavy javelin attack... Well imagine yourself.
Anybody actually killed would just be a benefit, and any shield struck would help the Romans in the melee.

Of course this is largely my oppinion, but I think it is fair.

With regards to the 'loadingspeed' of the skirmishers... It is far too long. How long can it take to pull a javelin back to throw it? And for how long would you aim it at a big bunch of enemies? Load-aim-launch should take no more than 1-1.5 seconds from a previously unengaged situation. After the first volley it should be slightly longer (it will take time to get the fingers into the throwingstraps).

[Orda Khan]

Very true Kraxis...
As I posted earlier, I am happy enough with the javelins and it really depends how you use them anyway. They certainly do not dessimate the enemy and neither should they. It must be said though, by cunningly targetting one enemy unit with 2 javelin units they can seriously reduce the combat efficiency of the unit they hit. If you get them in the flank or rear you can almost half them. I think their major function would be as a morale sapping unit.

I find it strange that Cretan archers can achieve kills of 100+ in most of the battles I've tried. I had one unit that amassed 197 kills yet Archer Warbands managed between 6 and 41 kills by comparison. This timeframe is not my speciality but were the archers of Crete so superior?

........Orda

[Kraxis]

Very true Kraxis...
As I posted earlier, I am happy enough with the javelins and it really depends how you use them anyway. They certainly do not dessimate the enemy and neither should they. It must be said though, by cunningly targetting one enemy unit with 2 javelin units they can seriously reduce the combat efficiency of the unit they hit. If you get them in the flank or rear you can almost half them. I think their major function would be as a morale sapping unit.

Moralesapping... No, they shouldn't be intended like that. How fast don't they run out of ammo? How short isn't their range? They are far from effective in that department. If that is how they are intended to be used, I expect them to be very neglected. It is not that I either hope or expect them to be superkillers (if they ever were we would have seen many more of them in the ancient battles), but they are right now not very fitting to the fast gamplay that is the game. Faster reload and better skirmish AI would go a long way towards making them better. More kills nahh... not really.


I find it strange that Cretan archers can achieve kills of 100+ in most of the battles I've tried. I had one unit that amassed 197 kills yet Archer Warbands managed between 6 and 41 kills by comparison. This timeframe is not my speciality but were the archers of Crete so superior?

........Orda

Yes, they were very superior archers. Born, bred and living for archery, they were possibly the best archers in the ancient world.
The reason for their many kills is quite simple. You must have noticed that they have a ranged value of 10 while normal archers have 5 and the best javelineers we know of as yet (skirmishers warband) have 9... So they were significantly better than any other archerunit and even better than the best javelinnerunit we know of. Further they are not impossible in a melee either.
While we can discuss if it is warrented for them to be that good, I think we should be happy that the ranged units can have different ranged strengths. It leaves great prospects for MODs and we will not even in the normal game happen to be in a situation where we have thrown a lot of money into a unit only to see it lose out in a ranged fight with basic archers. Now superior archers are just that... And I love that.

[Red Harvest]

Note: decimate = reducing by 10%. I believe it comes from a Roman punishment for cowardice/poor performance by a unit where 1 out of every 10 men was selected by lot and killed (by the remaining men.) That is the root of the word, although it has taken on a newer connotation of being nearly destroyed.

So the pila do indeed decimate in the traditional sense from what I have seen (about 10% losses), but they do not cause tremendous losses.

[Kraxis]

Yup, decimate = 10% loss.

The first recorded incident of a decimation was actually Alexander the Great around the time he had Parminion killed. He suspected the troops might rebel and thus decimated them (not the entire army though only the worst units).

The Roman decimation meant that the remaining 9 guys had to club the 10th to death. Afterwards they had to camp outside the campwalls and live off barley not wheat. A rather nasty punishment.

[KyodaiSteeleye]

Pilum - my understanding of its usage was more that it disrupted enemy formatons before a charge - the barbed head would dig into enemy shields, and the long neck was quite weak, and so easily bent, meaning the pilum was very hard to extract from your shield. You obviously can't use a shield if you've got a javelin sticking out of it, so you discard it.

So - pilum volley lodges in front rank of phalanx or shield-wall - warriors have to discard their shields - ergo, defensive formation has been disrupted and weakened for your follow-up charge with short sword and shield.

Unfortunately, guess this is kinda hard to recreate in TW.

[TinCow]

Pilum - my understanding of its usage was more that it disrupted enemy formatons before a charge - the barbed head would dig into enemy shields, and the long neck was quite weak, and so easily bent, meaning the pilum was very hard to extract from your shield. You obviously can't use a shield if you've got a javelin sticking out of it, so you discard it.

So - pilum volley lodges in front rank of phalanx or shield-wall - warriors have to discard their shields - ergo, defensive formation has been disrupted and weakened for your follow-up charge with short sword and shield.

Unfortunately, guess this is kinda hard to recreate in TW.

That is exactly my understanding of their use as well. They were single-use anti-shield weapons. The head bent easily to prevent them from being thrown back and the added weight would make it very difficult to continue using the shield. Of course, they would be more lethal against unshielded enemies and I have also read reports that it was common for the pilum to go through the shield and the arm behind the shield. This would have essentially put the enemy out of the fight.

Also, in re: the Roman 'warcry' I believe it was held until after the pilum was thrown. Goldsworthy claims that while almost every army screamed and shouted warcries to frighten and intimidate their enemy, the Roman Legions were even more frightening in their silence. When nearly every other military force at the time was a disorganized mob of screaming warriors, the stark contrast of the extremely disciplined, silent Legion marching right into battle must have been very discouraging. Typically, the Romans would remain in perfect formation, advancing slowly and in complete order... armor and shields providing a formidable spectacle. When they were within range, this would be followed by a short pause, a pila volley, and then the Legions would shout loudly and charge right at the enemy. Goldsworthy claims this was often enough to rout the enemy instantly or after a very brief contact.

Such iron discipline in an age of disorder would certainly have been a frightful spectacle for an opposing force.

[Barkhorn1x]

Such iron discipline in an age of disorder would certainly have been a frightful spectacle for an opposing force.

Disciplined troops are ALWAYS frightening to a mob. The principle remains true to this day.

Barkhorn.
(awaiting the release).

[Kraxis]

TinCow... Nice... But I have already been there (the pilum-cry-charge issue). :yes: ~D

The pilum wasn't designed to eliminate shields, they were meant to kill. A small barbed head on a slim long neck of a heavy javelin has a good chance of punching through the shield and it might reach the body of the target. That is what the idea was behind it, at least that is what I believe.
That the same properties resulted in useless shields, well the Romans could only rub their hands and say they had found a perfect solution. But it wasn't as if they set out to create the perfect antishield weapon.
But the impact of these weapons coupled with a furious charge of screaming men who had previously been silent (when the target had been screaming). Well, the result isn't exactly surprising.

[Oleander Ardens]

About the origin of the pilum

I was recently able to bring some light into the origin of this famous weapon, thanks to some reading in italian collections of the "italic people". Seems that it made it's first appearence in the Romagna in the VI century BC, although weapons with a long Iron shaft have been in use as heavy javelins since the V century in Northern Italy.

Most italic (Veneti, Umbri, Romani) and non-italic people (Raetii, Celti) adopted such weapons rather fast, for example pilas are found regulary in Celtic graves in eastern Italy (Adria) since the III century. So at least some Celts fighting at Telamon should be depicted with Pila...

Cheers

OA