Creative Assembly No Joke: GOLD Thursday, 9/9 P.D.T [Archive]

sdrga

09-08-2004, 23:50

I hope this does not raise the ire of the moderators. I made an honest effort to peruse the FAQ looking for information concerning Speculation on Gold and Release. I pride myself on being a law-abiding and constructive member of any online community I'm a part of, so let me know if this is inappropriate...

Assuming it's OK...

For those who do not frequent the .Com forums, I'll direct you to the following link which leads to the last couple of pages of our "Official Release Date Speculation Thread".

I'm more sure than I've ever been that Gold will come tomorrow (Thursday PDT). You'll have to judge for yourself. Specifically look for the posts by "tommh" in the thread linked below.

tommh is the "real deal", and exactly what he says he is, but again, that's just my opinion. I've watched his posts over time.

Feel free to disagree with this, but the question will be all settled by this time tomorrow, so type fast.

Here's the thread (look to the very bottom of that first page):

http://p223.ezboard.com/fshoguntotalwarfrm7.showMessageRange?topicID=5876.topic&start=441&stop=460

In addition, for those who don't know, they'll be a chat by the devs on Gamespy on Friday 2:30PM, PDT.

Here's proof of that from their GameSpy Insider newsletter screenshot, which one of our posters got a screen shot of:

img34.exs.cx/img34/9787/devchat.jpg (http://img34.exs.cx/img34/9787/devchat.jpg)

I'm not planning to join their little Insider deal, but someone will be sure to post a transcript as soon as possible after it concludes.

Basileus

09-09-2004, 01:30

im in no hurry but if its so thats great heh

Jeanne d'arc

09-09-2004, 01:35

Thats fast, u think they had any time to make some modifications to the full game? I think not..... ~:(

Spino

09-09-2004, 01:53

I believe it. One week to manufacture and box the game, another week to ship it to retailers for the 9/22 release date.

Steppe Merc

09-09-2004, 01:55

Jeanne, I doubt they would have fixed it any way. It's up to the modders to make it the best game it can and should be.
And this is excellent news if true!

Sjakihata

09-09-2004, 02:12

here's where the patch come in

sdrga

09-09-2004, 03:01

If you read between the lines on some of tommh's posts (linked above) you get the distinct impression that CA wasn't necessarily pleased with the demo as it was released, either.

I can't remember where I saw it, but it was someone I considered to fairly reliable, either an actual dev or someone like tommh, but the development on the game and the demo was on seperate tracks for about the last 2-3 months of development.

I'm a dev myself, although not in the game field, but the principle is the same: here is what was probably the approximate sequence of events:

1. A beta build is selected to be the basis for the demo.

2. That code is basically butchered to create a scripted subset of the actual game. It becomes its own development effort, usually with a much smaller staff, and usually not the most advanced developers, either: it's a demo.

3 The two pieces of software become progressively more different as time goes on. Which means....

There is no realistic way, without a lot of hassle, to just magically incorporate the changes made as the actual game progresses into the demo.

This would mean that there is 2-3 months of refinement plus additional refinement since the demo release that is not showing up in the demo.

The 2-3 months may be a total WAG, but there is no doubt that the above sequence had to occur that way. Maybe it was 4-6 months, I doubt any less than 2 months.

Why is this important? It totally blows away the argument that "the demo is what's going to be in the game". It simply cannot be true. From a development perspective it's, practically speaking, impossible.

Look to be very pleasantly surprised by the actual game since it's 2 - 6 months ahead of the demo.

Patricius

09-09-2004, 03:15

I hope that 9/9 is the gold date. We shall find out fairly soon.

Colovion

09-09-2004, 03:22

If you read between the lines on some of tommh's posts (linked above) you get the distinct impression that CA wasn't necessarily pleased with the demo, either.

by which I am very excited about.,.. particularly this quote in which he says:

They told me that many people didn't want to release the Demo at all, but marketing pressed for it to get the cover of CGW.

which makes me hope (perhaps foolheartedly) that the demo was really crappy compared to how the full game will be

*crosses fingers*

Tamur

09-09-2004, 03:35

...all about marketing. Those folks don't associate with devs much. I really don't know how they come up with it...probably something to do with reading entrails.

Haha! I KNEW it!

Red Harvest

09-09-2004, 04:36

He's close on the "entrails" comment. Problem is that they are reading their own entrails...think about it for a second...OK, hint: where is a typical marketing person's head typically to be found?

Oh, crap. I just realized my wife is in marketing now.

discovery1

09-09-2004, 05:30

Hmmm, possibly this is good news. Then again, they seem to be in a hurry, so they might release a sub-par product.

On the console side it has to do with localization for different TV scan rates (or at least thats part of it).

What? RTW on consoles?

USMCNJ

09-09-2004, 05:51

in a hurry? the game looked finished 12 month ago, they've been working on it for 4 years. I'm expecting a grade "A" product. (and i better get it, or..)

sdrga

09-09-2004, 07:22

Activision is in California. That's PDT and that'll be the source of the announcement.

PDT is 7 hours behind GMT. 19 hours behind New Zealand time. Sorry, those are the only international time zones I know. I may be off an hour or so.

I think the announcement will occur between 10AM - 1PM (just a guess) PDT which would be 5 - 8PM GMT or 5AM - 8AM Friday, New Zealand time.

Here's a good link to figure what time it is now in California: www.worldtimeserver.com/ (http://www.worldtimeserver.com/) use the list on the left and pick California.

One thing's for sure: whenever the announcement is made on Thursday PDT it'll be the same time everywhere: NOW http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif

Puzz3D

09-09-2004, 10:50

English assassin

09-09-2004, 14:35

Somebody monkeyed with the run speeds in the demo, and the result of that is I won't be buying the game when it's released. I'll wait and see what people who do buy the game have to say about the tactical battles because spending $50 (usd) to have the frustration of trying to co-ordinate 20 units that move too fast is not for me

Abso-bloomin-lutely. I find MTW slightly fast, but bearable. If RTW is any faster I won't bother: it'll just be another clickfest.

The Wizard

09-09-2004, 14:46

As I've said before, we'll see.

~Wiz

RTKLamorak

09-09-2004, 15:52

Somebody monkeyed with the run speeds in the demo, and the result of that is I won't be buying the game when it's released. I'll wait and see what people who do buy the game have to say about the tactical battles because spending $50 (usd) to have the frustration of trying to co-ordinate 20 units that move too fast is not for me.

Out of interest Yukki, do you kno the run/walking speeds of STW/MI compared to MTW and RTW? MI felt a LOT faster than MTW to me, MTW feeling to slow when i first played it but i did eventually get used to the pace. RTW is a definitely a lot faster than MTW for sure, but im not sure how much faster it is than MI?

Orda Khan

09-09-2004, 17:23

Out of interest Yukki, do you kno the run/walking speeds of STW/MI compared to MTW and RTW? MI felt a LOT faster than MTW to me, MTW feeling to slow when i first played it but i did eventually get used to the pace. RTW is a definitely a lot faster than MTW for sure, but im not sure how much faster it is than MI?

Infantry run and charge speed is faster than MI ... but Yuuki will know the numbers

.........Orda

Patricius

09-09-2004, 20:43

It is certainly not going gold today. Unsubstantiated claims about the game going gold or the release date are beyond annoying at this stage.

sdrga

09-09-2004, 22:12

Oh Ye Of Little Faith!!

Aymar de Bois Mauri

09-09-2004, 22:13

Judging by the demo, the game isn't ready by a long shot... ~:handball:

sdrga

09-09-2004, 23:17

Well, I'd like to apologize in advance to this whole thread for starting this up. I really felt sure about what I was relaying over here on the Org. We've speculated over this (for fun) over at the .Com forums for the last month, mainly on the release date. Not going on "I heard from a friend of an uncle of a sister of a dev" but mainly on what previews, retailers, etc were saying. It's been a "preponderance of evidence" approach. I've never wavered from my prediction of a September 22ed US release and I still believe the Gold announcement will occur at least by close of business tomorrow.

"Tommh" has made posts, especially pre-demo posts that no one could know if they didn't have a reliable information conduit to the devs or testers. Until he began to post yesterday about the masters being done and the Gold announcement being imminent, I did not think of coming over here and posting anything. Tommh did tell us yesterday, and some of you above quoted, that the marketing people were kind of in their own little world concerning the Gold. I should have read that more carefully before I jumped the gun, and probably Tommh should have nuanced what he said as well.

That being said, he has posted today, about an hour ago.

When they announce Gold is a marketing decision but the masters are done. The game is going to ship on time. The rest is just hoopla. I don't blame you for being skeptical, but I still consider him to be a reliable source. Also, the dev chat that I was sure we had nailed, has been postponed until the 15th. I take full responsibility for conveying what has turned out to be inaccurate information to this Forum.

Check out the last page of our speculation here:

http://p223.ezboard.com/fshoguntotalwarfrm7.showMessageRange?topicID=5876.topic&start=501&stop=510

Gamespy updated announcement of the chat here:

http://www.gamespyarcade.com/events/chats/rome_totalwar_09152004.shtml?newtab

Blodrast

09-09-2004, 23:33

nah, don't worry about it, sdrga.
I'm also optimistic about the release date, and it's no big deal even if the rumours prove to be only that: rumours.
We're all kinda excited and jumpy and anxious and what not anyway, so it's cool.
I'd rather have unconfirmed news than no news at all, so thanks for sharing ;)
Meanwhile, the waiting resumes :jumping: :jumping:

Lord Ovaat

09-10-2004, 19:30

The game speed arguement is interesting. I don't play MTW online, nor do I intend to play RTW online. I do play other games online, however. I always found the speed a bit slow, and since the vast, vast majority of folks who buy this game will only play single player campaign, it might make it more interesting. I still adjust the battle speed to about 40% with the slider, and 100% when just relocating troops. I don't believe the developers base their wallets on the wishes, however viable, of multiplayer buyers. They go were the money is. They have to. ~;)

JeromeGrasdyke

09-10-2004, 20:39

It's been a "preponderance of evidence" approach. I've never wavered from my prediction of a September 22ed US release and I still believe the Gold announcement will occur at least by close of business tomorrow.
Unfortunately end-of-play on Friday has come and gone -- it should be abundantly clear to everyone with some sense that Activision's marketing department is not easily moved to announcements (I'm beginning to believe they like to sneak up on competitors). And in fact, there may not ever be a "gold" announcement as such now, so I wouldn't hold my breath.

But: if you go to GameSpot and you see those big opening-page ads, well, that doesn't come cheap. And there do seem to be an awful lot of mentions of the same dates around. And I'm sitting at home with a cold beer. So there's got to be something right with the world ~;)

Patricius

09-10-2004, 20:53

So it might never go gold in terms of a specific announcement, yet we would still be able to buy and play on 22nd September, 30 September, 1st October, whenever?

I still think that developers chats might be an occasion for a gold announcement or release date or even both.

That beer is well earned. ~:cheers:

Patricius

09-10-2004, 20:55

That Tommh returned after his prediction was proven wrong does iseem to ndicate that he is not a hoaxer. I hope the next two or three weeks go very quickly. :jumping:

Stuie

09-10-2004, 20:55

And in fact, there may not ever be a "gold" announcement as such now, so I wouldn't hold my breath.

~:joker: ~:joker: ~:joker: ~:joker:

Considering all the speculation over at .com, that's pretty funny.

crushinator

09-10-2004, 21:00

thanks for the info jerome :)

enjoy that beer mate, it is well deserved ~:cheers:

Colovion

09-10-2004, 21:13

Jacque Schtrapp

09-10-2004, 22:22

I'm sitting at home with a cold beer.

Cheers m8!
~:cheers:

Aymar de Bois Mauri

09-10-2004, 22:31

I played MTW only Single Player and I think that RTW is way too fast. THere are other primarily SP playing people who think the same thing as me, but we'll see how that works out...
I'm with you. The walk is too fast, but the running and charging is just ridiculous!!!! ~:angry:

Ellesthyan

09-10-2004, 22:56

Ah Aymar, the walking speed is the same or reduced...

Basileus

09-10-2004, 23:41

But: if you go to GameSpot and you see those big opening-page ads, well, that doesn't come cheap. And there do seem to be an awful lot of mentions of the same dates around. And I'm sitting at home with a cold beer. So there's got to be something right with the world ~;)

beer? grr go work on the patch dammit ~:pat: heh jk, enjoy it ~:cheers:

Colovion

09-11-2004, 01:08

econ21

09-11-2004, 02:09

I agree - it is the killing speed that bothers me too. I wonder, is it anything to do with the scale of the attack and defence factors? Before, they tended to be small, in the region of + or -5 (you might get a +8 for a knights charge bonus to giving a little more initial killing power). Now we have numbers as far apart as 3 and 22. If the old formula for kills still applies, it is no wonder inferior soldiers drop like flies.

Red Harvest

09-11-2004, 03:22

And I'm sitting at home with a cold beer. So there's got to be something right with the world ~;)

Goodness, I hope it's not just a beer. When I'm done with a major project it has got to be at least a couple of "Wee Heavies" or Chimay or something else suitably tasty, intoxicating, and expensive (usually accompanied by some king crab, etc.) Puts a nice cap on things. Chaps, barley wine all 'round on me. ~:cheers: Nothing like that feeling of release when you finally say, "Enough, that's it, let's ship it."

Seriously, looking forward to see what you have done in the full game. I get the distinct impression that the demo was not really aimed at the hardcore. Hope you guys have hit a homerun on this (or that the changes needed are easy and already known.) ~:cheers:

RTKLamorak

09-11-2004, 16:05

Aymar de Bois Mauri

09-11-2004, 16:12

Ah Aymar, the walking speed is the same or reduced...
Sorry. It doesn't feel so. The speed at which both armies reach each other is much greater (or the time is much smaller). I feel it takes much less time to reach contact with the other army. Not like in MTW or STW. So, something is amiss.

Aymar de Bois Mauri

09-11-2004, 16:32

See, I never noticed a speed increase except with the cav - and that was welcome - but the killing speed is my prime dispute right now - I could live with the increased charge speed (although begrudgingly) as long as the soldiers don't fall down like dolls if the other unit is superior to them on paper
I've noticed the speed increase with the infantry too. It's plainly obvious for me. But I agree that the killing speed is an even more important factor. These suposedly enormous and long battles fell like a Buster Keaton movie!!! :confused: Ridiculous!!! :wall:

I agree - it is the killing speed that bothers me too. I wonder, is it anything to do with the scale of the attack and defence factors? Before, they tended to be small, in the region of + or -5 (you might get a +8 for a knights charge bonus to giving a little more initial killing power). Now we have numbers as far apart as 3 and 22. If the old formula for kills still applies, it is no wonder inferior soldiers drop like flies.
Good point. It might just be that. But could CA make such a blunder? :sad: Just for the sake of shorter battles? That destroys the feeling of previous games, as well as making it monotonous to play the game. Just rush with your best troops and that's it... :wall:

Soulflame

09-11-2004, 18:07

Well, after watching several episodes of Time Commanders, I think the demo is really poor. Those battles seem to be ok in speed and length, as well as time to manouvre. So I'm a bit comforted by that.

econ21

09-11-2004, 19:02

Interesting point, Soulflame - I agree the Time Commanders battles looked really good; not too fast at all; very tactical and surprisingly authentic. Makes me really puzzled about Trebia in the demo.

Barkhorn1x

09-11-2004, 19:26

Interesting point, Soulflame - I agree the Time Commanders battles looked really good; not too fast at all; very tactical and surprisingly authentic. Makes me really puzzled about Trebia in the demo.

I think (hope) that the answer is the demo is a dumbed down/speeded up version of the code designed to suck in the Console Crowd.

Playing around as the Romans w/ the 1.1 Mod you can see how hamstrung they are vis the Carthaginians.

I expect to be pleasantly surprised by the release code.

Barkhorn.

Spartiate

09-11-2004, 19:57

While the speed is annoying(very) it is the rate at which "inferior" units die that really bothers me.Using some gentlemans(Tamur i think) mod utility i created a scenario for the demo on a huge mountainside.I placed the carthaginians at the bottom and the Romans at the top.I played as Carthage and yes i did use Sacred Band cav and infantry.We marched up the damn mountain which took TEN GODS-DAMNED MINUTES.The troops were uniformally exhausted when they got there and what happened.We still slaughtered the Romans in less than a minute.I really hope this is NOT reflected in the game when it comes out.

MadKow

09-11-2004, 21:05

Regarding Time Commanders i always felt things happened quite a bit faster than i was used in MTW. I believe what we have in the demo is a result of a in fact increased speed in conjunction with armies proximity and troop quality disparity.

son of spam

09-12-2004, 02:22

Steppe Merc

09-12-2004, 03:03

Still doesn't fix the walking and running speed, which I still think is a huge problem. Even with a custom battle, with the armies on totally opposite sides of the map, the units are so fast, I keep on losing my cavalry wing, since I have no idea where they are. Pausing helps, but I can't seem to orcastrate flanking attacks since they've already moved to far away by the time I've given the orders.

crushinator

09-12-2004, 23:53

this was posted by a moderator on .com forums called dutch:

You've got it mostly right. "Fall" is usually shorthand for the third financial quarter, which goes from 1st July to 31st September, and so has very little to do with the seasons, although sometimes it's stretched a bit further. It's intentionally left a little vague. But the final version of Rome left the CA offices a fair while ago, and the rest is entirely in the hands of Activision.

And since Activision do the marketing as well as doing the duplication and shipping, all official announcements run via them, which is why it took some time to get an announcement up on the website. And this is also the reason why we don't (and won't) give dates on the total war site - we don't know when the boxed copies will reach stores, or when exactly the foreign language versions will be ready either. Release in Oz & NZ on the 23rd or 24th certainly sounds possible if the US editions are out on the 22nd, since thei're all english-language versions.

But we do know: the game is finished, and it will be with you shortly. And you know what? After four years developing it, we still enjoy playing it, which is a minor miracle ;)

well, it seems we have a bit more proof that the game has already gone gold but activision have kept things under wraps ~:eek:

looks like we could be playing the game in as little as 10 days ~:smoking:

you can read the post here (http://p223.ezboard.com/fshoguntotalwarfrm7.showMessageRange?)

The Marcher Lord

09-13-2004, 00:56

~:eek: Thats good enough for me - time to pre-order ~:)

Encaitar

09-13-2004, 02:34

Edit: nm, contents of my post are being discussed elsewhere.

Ldvs

09-13-2004, 10:32

The content of the link seems to have been deleted or moved. Anyway your post here is sufficient ~;p . I reckon I did well to pre-order it a week ago ~:)

P.S : will the UK editions will be out on the 22nd too?

hoom

09-13-2004, 11:04

For what its worth, there are a bunch of shops here in NZ that have been solidly saying 23rd for some time ie at least 2 weeks.

Boohugh

09-13-2004, 13:27

My local Game shop and the latest PC Gamer UK are saying 24th September for the UK release.

Ldvs

09-13-2004, 13:54

My local Game shop and the latest PC Gamer UK are saying 24th September for the UK release.

2 days later ~:( I may survive though.

King Edward

09-13-2004, 16:00

Amazon still have Oct 1st, might cancel my pre order and get it from the shops.

SouthwaterPanda

09-13-2004, 17:04

do we actually kno if CA plan a worldwide release? or whether us europeans get it later?

or can jerome himself comment on this? ~;)

man if its staggered that would suck. As well as the enourmous increase in piracy it will bring, it just isnt fair ~:( ~;p

I've always been amused by this argument. If someone wants the game, but can't wait a few days after its American release to buy it in England, and instead downloads it... I find it hard to believe they were planning on buying it in the first place.

Accounting Troll

09-13-2004, 19:20

Given how long it would probably take to download it, I would have thought it would be quicker to wait the extra few days for the UK release if it turns out to be a few days later for us.

What annoys me about people who download a pirate copy of a new game is when they start complaining about the game on the forums - I mean, what did they expect for free?

RTKLamorak

09-13-2004, 19:37

I've always been amused by this argument. If someone wants the game, but can't wait a few days after its American release to buy it in England, and instead downloads it... I find it hard to believe they were planning on buying it in the first place.

I think as a developer you dont understand the world piracy to well (neither did ID, or any other).... if you were on the "frontline" so to speak, you would understand that your argument is flawed. £30 is nothing to your average part/full time worker, and if the first place you could get it was retail for £30 thats where people would go, £30 means almost nothing to people for a good game.

However, if the release date is 2 weeks later in your country (e.g Doom3).. and the first place it is available is through download, then people WILL download it!!! If people are looking forward to a game that much and are very impatient the urge to download it is massive (due to there being NO legal consequences to doing so as of yet), and so they do, that is a fact!!

Of course, it is still only a minority that will do so, but it is enough to lose companies a LOT of money. I will most certainly be buying a retail copy as i play multiplayer, and also because i wouldnt like to cheat my best developer ever! However, your average person isnt like the TW devotees at these boards.... and if they can d/l it BEFORE they can buy it, they will!! :S

Ldvs

09-13-2004, 20:14

Amazon still have Oct 1st, might cancel my pre order and get it from the shops.

Amazon said 1st October because they didn't have a clue when it would be out. I'm pretty sure they'll get as soon as it's available. I much prefer buying it at a lesser cost, even though I must wait 1 or 2 extra days, rather than paying £10 more or so. But after all, if you can afford it... ~;)

Osbot

09-13-2004, 21:00

What was said earlier about people downloading due to later release dates is right on the money.

The best way to defeat casual piracy in hugely anticipated releases are simultainious world wide releases.

Your hardcore leecher is rarely going to pay for anything, however, most casual people simply give into the anticipation and will DL a game if it is not avaliable in their country for an extended period of time.

While a simultainious world wide release will delay things and tick off the Canadians and Americans who can't get their stuff as soon as it could be avaliable. Unless you've got some serious security issues at your company and a release group somehow steals a gold copy before its been sent to distro (has happened) you will cut back on piracy in a big way.

This brings up a few other points however, is the revenue lost by not releasing early in NA ASAP going to offset lost revenue due to pirating elsewhere?

RTKLamorak

09-13-2004, 23:11

Your hardcore leecher is rarely going to pay for anything, however, most casual people simply give into the anticipation and will DL a game if it is not avaliable in their country for an extended period of time.

agreed.

I dont think there is anyone on these forums who wont buy the full game... BUT, there is definitely a segment of people that could be swayed into the "light" with siluntaneous release dates imho.

GilJaysmith

09-14-2004, 09:41

Well, here's my encouragement for anyone thinking of downloading it before it's released in their neighborhood: if you do this you're a thief. If you don't like the term 'thief', you're still a thief. If you promise yourself you're going to buy it once it's in the shops, you're still a thief. If you think you deserve a copy for but can't afford it or can't wait, you're a thief.

Just because there's no practically enforceable legal remedy for this kind of theft, it's still theft. How to stop people from doing this? Good question, but I would ask why we have to put in the work to stop people doing something wrong.

USMCNJ

09-14-2004, 09:52

hold on. you're telling me that it's illegal to download a single song from a $20 CD and it's legal to download a $50 game?
is this in the UK, or is it in the US as well?

Ldvs

09-14-2004, 10:12

hold on. you're telling me that it's illegal to download a single song from a $20 CD and it's legal to download a $50 game?
is this in the UK, or is it in the US as well?

He said whoever downloads a $50 game is a thief.

USMCNJ

09-14-2004, 10:17

Just because there's no practically enforceable legal remedy for this kind of theft, it's still theft.
does that mean that it is illegal but can't be inforced?
or that it is legal and is moraly wrong?

Ldvs

09-14-2004, 10:34

Maybe in the USA it's legal, but I doubt it. He meant that there were no way to prevent people from downloading whatever they wanted if they decided to, but didn't mean it was legal.

Captain Fishpants

09-14-2004, 10:36

does that mean that it is illegal but can't be inforced?
or that it is legal and is moraly wrong?

Gil was perfectly clear; the law is perfectly clear. Downloading something that you don't have the rights to use and/or own is theft. Any other phrase is merely disguising the unpleasant truth that the person that does this is a thief.

Enforcement is neither here nor there in whether or not it is theft. The act does not cease to be theft and remains in most people's eyes, immoral and wrong. Or to be even plainer: getting away with an act does not make the act in itself right.

USMCNJ

09-14-2004, 10:59

well from this thread i get the idea that it is pretty easy to download games online.
In my original post i was asking if this was the case because it was legal.
In the last few years i've heard a lot of thing about lawsuits based on downloading songs. (which lead me to believe that it is hard to download music) However, i've not heard anything about game related lawsuits. Since a song from a CD ($18/18 = $1 a song) seems to me of less value then a $50 game, i would expect to see more game realted lawsuits. (this plus this thread made me question if downloading games was legal)

ok, hopes that clears it up. (if i don't make sense i'll try to explain again tomorrow, at this point it's 6 a.m. and i've been up since 11 a.m.)

GilJaysmith

09-14-2004, 12:17

It's illegal to download a game or a piece of music without the copyright holder's permission. Neither crime is particularly easy to police, but they are both crimes.

"Practically enforceable" means: is it worth taking someone to court over one case of downloading, which is all that you'd probably be able to claim? The answer is almost certainly no. It would take a concerted effort of monitoring file access over a long period of time to prove that someone was downloading lots of games, and who's going to pay for it? The developers can't, the publishers might well not (it's cheaper to try CD copy protection), and there are probably few or no precedents for it working.

They recently tried this with music, as someone mentioned. The public reaction to this was a massive outcry, leading to some of the more heavily-publicised cases being dropped. So that's alright: if you look cute and puppylike, and can make a virtue out of your supposed ignorance that you were breaking the law, then you can get away with theft.

:-(

Bob the Insane

09-14-2004, 12:25

Firstly I will give my stance on the subject that the download of software (or music) without the copywrite holder's permission is theft and wrong, and I agree with the developers statements above on this...

On the subject of staggered releases not encouraging the download of software I do disagree though... We live in a world with the internet, information superhighway instant communication and practically instant data transfer across the globe... People have friends around the world... If you release something cool in country A this week and in country B next week it is going to leak out and there is a temptation to download. Simply having a global release date removes all this in one easy stroke, why is it such a problem to not do it???

Myrddraal

09-14-2004, 12:37

It's illegal to download a game or a piece of music without the copyright holder's permission. Neither crime is particularly easy to police, but they are both crimes.

Just to be pedantic, thats not strictly true. In many cases it is legal to download a game so long as you already own a legal copy of the game. If you loose the disk, but you still have your serial number, you can download the game and re-install it legally. Of course many people abuse the system, and so you have to prove in court that you owned a legal copy before you downloaded if they come for u.

Bob the Insane

09-14-2004, 12:42

Just to be pedantic

Being equally pedantic I would say you have the copywrite holder's permission at that stage (ie. you have a valid software license...)..

Jambo

09-14-2004, 12:55

Just pay your hard-earned cash for the game. By legally purchasing the games we support the industry, which in turn helps keep these talented programmers deservedly in a job! If the balance tips sufficiently, the industry ceases to continue to move forward and the quality of the product and support offered will dwindle.

Waiting 1 week in an entire lifetime is hardly a great hardship, now is it??! Go out and play in the park, visit a friend, or spend a little more time with your partner.

crushinator

09-14-2004, 12:57

First off, let me clearly state that i have already pre-ordered RTW and will be paying for my copy. I AM NOT advocating pricay in any way .... now with that out of the way, here is what i think a very interesting insite into piracy:

by Brad Wardell (strategy first)

I recently wrote about this topic here. But I wanted to write a more succinct version of it since some people thought I was advocating something akin to Internet Product Activation to thwart piracy.

Let me first Bottom line this: CD based copy protection does more harm than good.

Let me then add: There is no magic bullet that will stop piracy. Game developers need to quit trying to solve piracy via some sort of mechanism and instead design a policy that discourages piracy. Game developers/publishers need to approach piracy in a more realistic way. As a result, there are two basic groups of pirates.

Group A: The kiddies who warez everything. CD Copy protection means nothing to them. They have the game before it even hits the stores.

Group B: Potential buyers who are really more interested in convenience. The price of the game isn't as big a deal to them as convenience.

It's group B that our industry needs to focus more on rather than alienating and inconveniencing our customers by trying to thwart group A. Sure, it ticks me off that people steal stuff I've worked for years making. But we have to be realistic about this, it doesn't do anyone any good to inconvenience customers. In fact, anedotal evidence seems to imply that the more we inconvenience customers, the more we turn them into group B.

Let me explain:
Joe Gamer buys a game that requires the CD to be in the drive. But his 3 year old takes the CD and loses it. Joe Gamer ends up going onto Google or whatever and pretty soon finds not just a way to play that game without a CD but now finds out how to get the "latest games" not just for free but more convenient than ever through the world of peer networks and warez. As a result, as future games come out, Joe Gamer must now balance "doing the right thing" (which typically means driving up to the store, paying money to be inconvenienced by copy protection) and loading up a program and just getting the game, for free, quickly and painlessly.

That's why I think CD based copy protections are a bad idea. I think they create pirates and aren't terribly effective anyway. They're supposed to keep the honest "honest" but I propose a better way.

NOT Internet activation. Instead, game developers adopt a policy that has been very successful in the non-game software market -- after release updates.

PC games often come out buggy, get one patch, and then are largely abandoned. It's really hard to feel sympathy for game developers who treat their customers that way. Instead of doing that, release frequent updates to the game for users. For free. Have them go through a secure network so that only registered purchasing users can get the update but make it as convenient as you can.

By doing this, you create a bigger incentive to be a customer than to be a pirate. It becomes increasingly inconvenient to have the latest/greatest version of the game via the warez route than the legitimate route.

This is what we've been doing with Galactic Civilizations since it's release. You can buy it at the store or directly at galciv.com and either way be able to download the full game electronically along with regular free updates. It has no copy protection on the CD at all. You can install it on your laptop and main PC. We "fight" piracy by releasing regular, meaningful updates that are much easier to get legitimately than through warez channels. We've found a lot of people who initially pirated GalCiv end up buying it as a result. And sales of the game have been quite good. Sell-in at retail world wide is in the six digit range so it's not a matter of "small scale" solutions here.

So how do game developers do this? Just set aside a relatively small amount of the development budget to implement user suggested features. One or two developers, part time, for 8 to 12 month after release can make a big difference. Is GalCiv pirated? Sure. But it's not nearly as easily available via warez channels (we do monitor this stuff) as other games of similar retail sales levels.

There's no magic bullet to stop piracy. Game companies need to realize that. Instead, the goal should be to reduce piracy as much as possible and rather than relying on some mechanism, they should focus on a *policy* that focuses on making it more tempting to be a customer than to be a pirate.

Now for me, i am definately in group B. I am perfectly happy to pay £30-£40 for a game, as it is not a lot of money for me. But, as with RTW i have been waiting well over a year for the game and i'm absolutely desperate to play it. If the UK release was significantly delayed you can see how tempting it would be if you could get the game up to two weeks early .... a simultanous worldwide release provides another very compelling reason to be a customer instead of a pirate.

As I say, i have already pre-ordered and will be paying for the game, but it is unrealistic to think that everyone will make the same decision.

GilJaysmith

09-14-2004, 12:58

On the subject of staggered releases not encouraging the download of software I do disagree though... We live in a world with the internet, information superhighway instant communication and practically instant data transfer across the globe... People have friends around the world... If you release something cool in country A this week and in country B next week it is going to leak out and there is a temptation to download. Simply having a global release date removes all this in one easy stroke, why is it such a problem to not do it???

Costs money. Most games are manufactured in one country. Organising the distribution to all countries worldwide for simultaneous release would introduce an extra delay between mastering and release. This way at least one country (usually the US) gets it as soon as possible.

Problems with delaying it:
- no-one likes delays
- unless it went to *every* country there would still be people complaining that it wasn't available in, e.g., New Zealand, or somewhere else somewhat off the beaten track
- a lot of downloads happen before the street date anyway... games are generally pirated somewhere down the production line. (There was a crack available for Medieval before it had shipped.)

Shahed

09-14-2004, 13:23

The R:TW demo was available somewhere around 24 hours (probably more) before official release time.

Anyway I already have R:TW on pre-order so I'll check my mail towards the last week of the month ~:) ...hassle free me.

crushinator

09-14-2004, 13:28

Costs money. Most games are manufactured in one country. Organising the distribution to all countries worldwide for simultaneous release would introduce an extra delay between mastering and release. This way at least one country (usually the US) gets it as soon as possible.

Problems with delaying it:
- no-one likes delays
- unless it went to *every* country there would still be people complaining that it wasn't available in, e.g., New Zealand, or somewhere else somewhat off the beaten track
- a lot of downloads happen before the street date anyway... games are generally pirated somewhere down the production line. (There was a crack available for Medieval before it had shipped.)

fair points there. While most games are available as warez before games are released, i imagine the only people who are aware of this is the 'warez kiddies' who are going to download it no matter what CA or Activision do :(

whereas, most regular customers wouldn't think to look for illegal copies of the game before its even released (or know where to look for that matter). But, if the game has been released in the US, 2 weeks before they can legally get hold of a copy, the average gamer will become aware that copies of the game a going to be 'out there'. It is likely they will spend the 2 weeks waiting time searching for ways to get hold of it early... this unfortunately could turn a customer into a pirate

crushinator

09-14-2004, 13:30

GilJaysmith, while you are here, do you have any info on the UK release date? ~;p

he who asks is a fool for 5 minutes (thats me) he who never asks is a fool for life ;)

Shahed

09-14-2004, 13:31

If you have been gaming since you were 6 and have any idea how the internet works, you will know where to find warez. Most gamers fall into this category IMO, and though they know where to find the game, they won't bother and just wait for it to ship. However of course a large minority will never buy R:TW and they will just pirate it, sadly.

Díaz de Vivar

09-14-2004, 13:33

Costs money. Most games are manufactured in one country. Organising the distribution to all countries worldwide for simultaneous release would introduce an extra delay between mastering and release. This way at least one country (usually the US) gets it as soon as possible.

Problems with delaying it:
- no-one likes delays
- unless it went to *every* country there would still be people complaining that it wasn't available in, e.g., New Zealand, or somewhere else somewhat off the beaten track
- a lot of downloads happen before the street date anyway... games are generally pirated somewhere down the production line. (There was a crack available for Medieval before it had shipped.)

Costs money, ok. However delaying it in Europe you (Activision and CA) will lose many potential customers that will obtain the game downloading it cos they can´t wait between 10-15 days to buy it. And Sales = Money too.

I will buy the game sure and i don´t mind wait, but GilJaySimth, think that many people are waiting for this RTW for years and IMHO, and neither CA nor Activision is making the things easier to THEIR customers. Within 10 days the game will hit the shelves in USA (and the official info was released YESTERDAY!!!), however in Europe? New Zealand? and rest of the World? what´s happening?. Repeat, make the thing easier and the Group B will buy your games, sure. ~;)

GilJaysmith

09-14-2004, 13:57

Nelson

09-14-2004, 14:22

Some people have an idea of “fairness” in their heads that simply isn’t applicable here. Why should North American customers wait for something that’s already here? That would be plain stupid. Should copies of Rome sit unsold in boxes in Toronto just because none have reached London yet?

Persons who get their software illegally will do so regardless of any distribution plan because they can and because they are crooks.

I had to order a Cossacks expansion from the UK because the NA release was MONTHS later than in Europe. Them’s the breaks.

RTKLamorak

09-14-2004, 14:27

hoom

09-14-2004, 14:33

Bring on the Culture ~D

I've never been excessively bothered by waiting a couple of weeks to get stuff.
I've got a few boxes full of CDs to prove it ~:wacko:
Sometimes we even get stuff before the US & UK.

Meantime, I thought Enter The Matrix did the most mind bogglingly good job of project management to not only get the game out on time, but on 3 (or was it 4?) different platforms, all over the planet (yes, even off the beaten track places like NZ), all on the same day.

The launch day of the movie

I doubt we'll see that kind of feat again for a long long time.
Not least because its pretty much a waste of time/money/effort.

Was it pirated early too?

I wonder what the Grey Area would make of software piracy?
I guess it'd be a fair bit more concerned with Dubya, Osama etc but you know, Minds do like to meddle with peoples' lives...

discovery1

09-14-2004, 14:35

I have no problem being called a thief. Why, I even admit to being one. That aside, why are you worried about piracy(aside from you loosing money)? More often thean not the illegal copies that one can get off limewire or IRC are of such poor quality, you might as well not even have the game. I know this is the case with Shogun:Total War.

Barkhorn1x

09-14-2004, 14:39

Oh for Chrysakes - you want the game first in the UK and Australia - start breeding!!! ~;p

This is a business - and in business the US (or NA if you like) market trumps anywhere else in terms buying power.

So...there it is and I for one am happy to live in Florida now that all those hurricanes are behind us and the roads and airports are once again open for business.

Barkhorn. ~:joker:

maestro

09-14-2004, 14:54

Quote from the Total War website:

Rome: Total WarTM has been released to manufacturing and will be shipping to retailers in North America on Wednesday, September 22

Look right here (http://www.totalwar.com/community/rome.htm) at the top of the page.

That means that if you have it on pre-order you should get it through your letterbox on the morning of the 23rd and if you want to buy it in a shop then it'll be on the shelves on the morning of the 23rd. (North America)

Nuff said.

Díaz de Vivar

09-14-2004, 14:57

crushinator

09-14-2004, 15:01

But I have no patience with people who have no patience...

I know the industry loses money because of downloads in situations like this, but the point remains, this is because *they* have decided to become thieves because they can't wait a few days to play what is, at the end of the day, just another game. Not because the industry is doing something 'wrong'. Because they WANT. WANT! WANT NOW! GIMME! NOW! NOW FOR ME!

You have to wait for some things in life. You have no automatic right to anything you want. You certainly aren't entitled to something *right now* just because you exist, it exists, and someone else has one. Stealing from us because you can't stand the thought of someone in America having something you don't - and which they paid for - is ridiculous.

If you can't learn that lesson then you don't learn the value of things - just how to avoid paying their cost.

And if people think like that, then they'll find a way to 'justify' being a thief no matter how far the industry bends over backwards in an attempt to relieve the 'pressure of opportunity'.

When the world becomes the Culture then this problem won't arise. Until then, feh.

i do agree with the arguement you are making and morally it is correct. The reality of the situation is that though is that the delayed release will cost CA and activision sales - its wrong, but it is the reality.

personally i think the way forward is content delivery systems such as steam or stardock central. These are two example of companies who have taken a realistic look at the problem and are finding new ways to combat piracy.

Stardock have ignored the 'Warez Kiddies' by saying "they won't buy the game either way, so if they copy it we have lost nothing". Instead, they looked at the segment of the market who copy games, who only do so because its convenient. To combat this, they allowed people access to a high speed download the game - this simultanously made it more convenient (fast download and very easy). Also they couldn't distribute the game worldwide quickly, so people in other countries could legally download on the day of release - so they didn't have to turn to piracy to get the game early.

Other benefits include more money for the developer (downloads bypassed the publisher ... the developer actually made more money from a lower number of downloads than they did from a higher number of 'store' sales). Better games for the customer etc etc

This obviously isn't a solution for RTW, but i think companies should start to look to these options for the future :)

Jambo

09-14-2004, 15:01

That's a very interesting read crushinator and one that has a very plausible argument. I would have to agree that a pirate would be bound to be put off with regular updates. This to them means searching, and no doubt waiting, for a new hacked version of the update to become available. The pirate then has to wait longer than the paying customer to be able to play the updated game. As was said, convenience plays a major part in this.

I remember losing the manual with CD key for my Command and Conquer Generals game. Something I obviously only noticed when attempting to reinstall the game to a new computer. To get a replacement, I had to borrow a digital camera and take photos of the receipt (it was amazing that i still had this after so many months), CD and the game's box to send to EA's customer service branch. This processs took the best part of a month to get resolved. I can tell you I felt very inconvenienced and the temptation to try to obtain an illegal copy instead was high.

Regards

GilJaysmith

09-14-2004, 15:03

But I have no patience with people who have no patience...

IMO, it isn´t a convincing argument.

Here we are talking about RTW: publisher, magazines, webs are overwhelming us with this game for 2-3 years (screens, videos etc) and many people can´t wait. You have been stimulating the lions and now they are smelling the flesh blood you request patience...

A simultaneous release would cost money and non-simultaneous release (the situation here) will cost sales. It´s fair and simple. ~:)

Couldn't care less what you think. This is not one of those issues where people can discuss it and come to a reasoned and moderate compromise. In my opinion it's the law. What's fair and simple is: don't steal. It's not our fault if you steal from us. We are not at fault if you want to be a thief. I can't make it any plainer than that.

RTKLamorak

09-14-2004, 15:10

Couldn't care less what you think. This is not one of those issues where people can discuss it and come to a reasoned and moderate compromise. In my opinion it's the law. What's fair and simple is: don't steal. It's not our fault if you steal from us. We are not at fault if you want to be a thief. I can't make it any plainer than that.

so you are ok with people stealing your software.. as long as they acknowledge that is actually theft? and that they are a theif? ~:dizzy:

you dont mind about the massive amounts of lost revenue then?

edit: im not trying to stir aggression, or cause conflicts on these boards. Im just trying to understand the developers attitude to piracy better

maestro

09-14-2004, 15:11

Surely we, honest folk, are paying a premium for our software because of theiving gits who can't be arsed to pay out for a quality product.

That sucks.

IMHO the forum moderators should take note of those who confess to be using a warezed version of any of the Total War series and ban their account and IP! ~:mad:

Díaz de Vivar

09-14-2004, 15:22

Couldn't care less what you think. This is not one of those issues where people can discuss it and come to a reasoned and moderate compromise. In my opinion it's the law. What's fair and simple is: don't steal. It's not our fault if you steal from us. We are not at fault if you want to be a thief. I can't make it any plainer than that.

Yes, here your argument is convincing. I agree: if i steal the game, i´m a thief. This isn´t my situation because i´ll buy the game.

However, and here is my question, what do you (devs and publishers) do to try to persuade these thieves to buy your games?. A simultaneous release is one solution. Ok, will cost money but you´ll gain customers and you´ll sell more games and people won´t complain about being a second class customer. I think that have a bandage over one´s eyes isn´t a good solution. ~:)

Bob the Insane

09-14-2004, 15:30

personally i think the way forward is content delivery systems such as steam or stardock central. These are two example of companies who have taken a realistic look at the problem and are finding new ways to combat piracy.

Totally agree with this, I have used both (HL2 phase 3 preload complete ~;p ) and for those of us on reasonable fast connections it really is the way forward... By making updates and expansions a normal part of a product rather than the all in one box approach you can squeeze our pirates by stopping them gaining access to the updates and expansions...

GilJaysmith

09-14-2004, 15:33

so you are ok with people stealing your software.. as long as they acknowledge that is actually theft? and that they are a theif? ~:dizzy:

you dont mind about the massive amounts of lost revenue then?

edit: im not trying to stir aggression, or cause conflicts on these boards. Im just trying to understand the developers attitude to piracy better

This is all my personal attitude. The company's attitude is: if we find anyone distributing a pirate copy of the game, we will sue them to hell and back, and individuals will be dispatched to visit them with glaives and maces. In the words of Harry Harrison: "We could have sent an H-bomb through instead of me, so how about a little politeness, eh?"

"I couldn't care less" refers to people who want to argue the morality of it with me. They're wrong - end of story. Sure, we could spend money to make it harder to steal, but nothing's bulletproof, most copy protection systems are cracked within days of release, and if someone finds it "harder" to copy a game, that still means they've taken the decision to try to steal it. And the internet community does love to pride itself on its independence and frontier spirit - or if you're feeling uncharitable, the right to steal.

It isn't just games, of course. How many people have registered their shareware?

Stardock's games are small and Stardock has enough revenue streams that they can afford to self-publish. And good on them for it, too. I'm all in favour of digital distribution. But CA needs lots of money to develop a game and that comes from a publisher and then it's up to the publisher to choose the distribution method. And Rome is something like 2.5Gb. That's a big download. (Pirates: if you haven't started by now, you might not have it by the time it ships!) The hardcore might well be interested in that, but the chances are that Rome's potential market for grannies who want something in a box to give to their grandson this year is bigger than Stardock's entire digital market.

Aymar de Bois Mauri

09-14-2004, 15:39

RTKLamorak

09-14-2004, 15:40

This is all my personal attitude. The company's attitude is: if we find anyone distributing a pirate copy of the game, we will sue them to hell and back, and individuals will be dispatched to visit them with glaives and maces.

ah k, thanks for clarifying that.

King Edward

09-14-2004, 15:42

With my crappy 56k connection its not worth trying to pirate the game(not that i would), much simpler (and quicker!) to part with my hard earned £25 and buy the game.

Red Harvest

09-14-2004, 15:57

I get pretty weary of the "Gotta have it now before I wet my pants crowd" (you know, the RTS typse." However, I also recognize that if the delay in release is two weeks for one region vs. the next, those same folks are very likely to download it first. These are the instant gratification types, it is not about money, it is timing.

I loathe the current anti-piracy schemes, and I use no CD cracks, esp. with CA's titles. Why? Because I don't like having my registry updated on every boot following running one of these games (I notice that message...some others miss it.) I also don't like having to fiddle with CD's any more than I must. I've had MTW play a part in corrupting a machine badly enough to require a format--a dubious distinction that no other game can claim (on my systems.) At the same time, I don't pirate software, nor make it available for others to pirate. But I'm glad the no-CD hackers are out there.

I agree with CA that if you don't buy a copy of the game and instead download a version, that is theft. However, the argument that downloading it before you can buy it is theft (although you plan to and later DO purchase it) is pure bull$hit. If you don't buy it later, then, yep, it is theft.

Jambo

09-14-2004, 16:02

Like Gil says, you cannot try to compromise and reason for downloading and stealing a Warez version. A thief is a thief, regardless of the pleas and motives behind the action. If someone enters your house and steals your belongings you wouldn't like it. Although technically not as intrusive and upsetting as having your house burgled, morally speaking, downloading and stealing software is no different.

However, I think crushinator's quoted passage really speaks volumes and offers interesting alternative ideas in tackling the issue of pirating software. The word convenience makes total sense to me as the majority of people that will play RTW will be law-abiding citizens that purchase the game. I for one have alwways been an avid hater of games that require to the CD to be in the CD-ROM drive to initiate them!!! Why??? CD's get old and worn and sometimes they do not run anymore... why o why make the game dependent on them to start? Surely the CD-key should be sufficient. Because of this major irritation I've often looked for no-CD cracks so I can run the software without the CD, and yet I am not a thief, nor a pirate.

Regards

GilJaysmith

09-14-2004, 16:07

However, the argument that downloading it before you can buy it is theft (although you plan to and later DO purchase it) is pure bull$hit. If you don't buy it later, then, yep, it is theft.

Excuse me but no. It's theft before you buy it. It's theft with an apologetic, "Oops, sorry, I'm buying it now" after you've bought it.

Go try it in your local shop if you disagree. Tell them you don't want to pay for it now, but you certainly promise to pay for it later, and since your word is the word of a gentleman you see no reason why they shouldn't let you walk out with a copy right now.

If there is a "try before you buy" deal for a product, then that's one thing. The fact that you *think* there is a "try and then buy" deal is something completely different. Specifically, bull$hit.

Díaz de Vivar

09-14-2004, 16:08

Yeap. I really don't understand how someone that has waited 1 year for a game can't get enough patiente to wait for two more weeks to buy the game!!! It's just childish!!! :rolleyes:

During that year he can´t obtain (steal) the game because is impossible.

And clarifying something, i bought STW, Mongol Invasion, MTW (spanish and US. versions) and Viking (Spanish and UK versions). ~:)

RTKLamorak

09-14-2004, 16:09

Encaitar

09-14-2004, 16:14

You have to wait for some things in life. You have no automatic right to anything you want. You certainly aren't entitled to something *right now* just because you exist, it exists, and someone else has one. Stealing from us because you can't stand the thought of someone in America having something you don't - and which they paid for - is ridiculous.

If you can't learn that lesson then you don't learn the value of things - just how to avoid paying their cost.
Well said.

GilJaysmith

09-14-2004, 16:17

agree with comments on no-cd cracks...... i have a 3 year old CD-RW drive that sounds like a turbine starting up whenever it is accessed, and also struggles to read discs consistently (i finally brought new one this week tho ~:) , was only thing in my new PC pc over 6 months old ;o ).

Is it actually legal to use no-cd cracks on fully paid for and licensed software?

Technically, no ;-) You're breaking the EULA that says you won't modify the software in any way. (In ye olden days modding was technically illegal too... but modern EULAs usually make explicit allowance for mods.)

However... skating lightly over the surface of this dodgy topic... I agree that damage to the physical medium of the CD after you've installed it is frustrating, and for that reason I personally have no problem with their use *in that circumstance only*. I also think that more games should take the Unreal Tournament approach of releasing an official no-CD patch six months down the line, and that publishers should replace damaged media at no cost.

However, as this wouldn't be a real Gil post without using the 'T' word, it's important to remember that using a no-cd crack so that two people can play a game at once when you only bought one copy is definitely theft.

Leet Eriksson

09-14-2004, 16:36

whoever is in britain and cannot wait better pre-order the US version, i mean whats the difference anyway? ~;p

i doubt rome will arrive here anytime soon, just like the past releases of MTW, STW and their expansions it took an awful lot of time to be released here(UAE), so i just pre-ordered it online.

Gregoshi

09-14-2004, 16:38

You can "If only..." and "But..." all you want to justify illegal downloading, but the bottom line is that people will break the law when there are no consequences to doing so and it is to their benefit. If a law cannot (or will not) be enforced, then people will break that law.

Also, try that "I'll buy it later" argument at a car dealer. I'm sure they'll understand. Yeah, I know, "but" software is different...

This discussion is going nowhere fast. :no:

Tamur

09-14-2004, 16:57

Is this a discussion? oh...

Sounded like Thieves vs. Software Engineers to me, and we all know who has a leg to stand on.

(have been burned personally by software piracy)

frogbeastegg

09-14-2004, 17:13

I'd just like to ask if there is any official word on the UK release. I'm waiting to see how the final game turns out, but it's nice to know how long I'll have to wait after the American ginea pigs test it for me. Course that's a publisher thing rather than a dev thing, but no harm in asking, right? :looks hopeful:

I'd love to be in the crowd counting the days, I almost wish I'd never played that demo - no, I do wish I had never played that demo. This game should be everything I have been waiting for for over a decade, I should be excited ... I wish I was. Curse that demo!

Piracy? Hate it. No cd cracks? Never use them. I hate having to swap the discs and keep them handy, but somehow the very idea of a no cd crack feels wrong. I've never had a damaged disc in the tenish years I've been using them. Never. I take good care of my discs.

Orda Khan

09-14-2004, 17:13

Likewise one could argue that the ' minimum specs to run this game ' claim on the box is a declaration and when these specs prove to be less than adequate, words like TRADE DESCRIPTION ACT and CONSUMER PROTECTION should spring to mind and the same applies when any bug stops the game from being played anywhere less than 100% perfect.

Remember swords can be double edged. I wouldn't know a CD crack from a builders' crack but maybe, just maybe if people got what they paid for then perhaps there would be less of this sort of thing.

It makes me angry to hear talk like this when I think of the pitiful after sales on offer.

.......Orda

ah_dut

09-14-2004, 18:17

I agree with Gil here an official nocd patch would be nice.

Aymar de Bois Mauri

09-14-2004, 19:50

However, I think crushinator's quoted passage really speaks volumes and offers interesting alternative ideas in tackling the issue of pirating software. The word convenience makes total sense to me as the majority of people that will play RTW will be law-abiding citizens that purchase the game. I for one have alwways been an avid hater of games that require to the CD to be in the CD-ROM drive to initiate them!!! Why??? CD's get old and worn and sometimes they do not run anymore... why o why make the game dependent on them to start? Surely the CD-key should be sufficient. Because of this major irritation I've often looked for no-CD cracks so I can run the software without the CD, and yet I am not a thief, nor a pirate.

Regards
In regard to the CD's necessity to run the game, I can give you a sad example that happened to me a couple of years ago. And as a matter of fact with the MI CD. One day, I arrived home from work and decided to continue playing one of my Mongol Campaigns. I inserted the compulsory CD to start the game and when the reader began spinning I started hearing a strange scratching sound. I found it strange, but wasn't really concerned, and waited for the game to load. I waited 10 min!!! Then I stoped the game load with Task Manager and pressed the eject button. Result: a recently bought CD with a quarter of it's surface scratched!!! :bigcry:

Today, I always use a No-CD crack to play the game. But I've bought all the games...

Epilogue: Fortunatelly I could get a new CD by sending the old one to Electronic Arts explaining what happpened. But I stopped playing for 1 month!!! :sad:

Red Harvest

09-14-2004, 20:08

Excuse me but no. It's theft before you buy it. It's theft with an apologetic, "Oops, sorry, I'm buying it now" after you've bought it.

Go try it in your local shop if you disagree. Tell them you don't want to pay for it now, but you certainly promise to pay for it later, and since your word is the word of a gentleman you see no reason why they shouldn't let you walk out with a copy right now.

If there is a "try before you buy" deal for a product, then that's one thing. The fact that you *think* there is a "try and then buy" deal is something completely different. Specifically, bull$hit.

That is completely not what I said. Don't try putting words like that in my mouth. I said nothing about "try before I buy." I was addressing the lack of availability for some. Believe what you want, but theft is taking something with no intent of paying. Lawyers can write all sorts of things to screw the consumer (and they are quite good at it, look at any EULA), but that doesn't change the "is it right?" or "is it wrong?" decision. Legal does not equal ethical, nor does technically illegal necessary equal unethical.

You have just addressed the real fear of the software vendor...that a download will be used as a try before you buy. What is disturbing is that part of the concern is that someone might try it and not like it. Why should a company have the individual's money for providing a product they wish they had not bought? I realize that part of the concern is that some would play the download and never buy, and some would wait until the initial prices drop. I don't consider either ethical. The one that never intended to buy is the guy/gal that cheats no matter what. Another possibility is those RTS folks with really short attention spans. They get a few hours worth of entertainment, save a few dollars, and decide they don't need to buy. Again, I won't defend them. But your lumping of folks who are not out to defraud in the same category with those who are is convenient simplification and cover. When you start lumping folks this broadly, before long all customers are your enemy.

And for your info, I have returned some software to the store after attempting to use it and discovering it was so bugged as to be alpha or development code--and not patched to make it acceptable. Age of Sails II comes to mind. And yes, I got store credit for the return. My return was under the "fitness for use" and "fraudulent claims on the box" categories. Had to do the same thing with an early version of Madden many years ago. The managers quickly acquiesced in both cases, contrary to "policy" and the EULA -- what a joke that legal POS is. It is quite simply the difference between what is RIGHT and what is WRONG. I don't advocate returning (or failing to pay for) something because you don't like it--that is simply wrong. I do advocate doing so because it fails basic fitness for use criteria--that is right and sends a clear message to the creator/distributor/vendor.

The problem here is with an industry that can get away with shipping a broken product and tell a consumer that once they have broken the seal, they are stuck with it. (No, I'm not accusing CA of this, by a longshot.) Eventually, the customer has had enough and figures out a new way to play "the game" on better terms.

I've worked for a software developer who was geared to sell, sell, sell even though he was making his money off of annual license fees and failing to provide support. The software needed some overhauls to get it up to snuff for the users, but as long as the money was coming in he didn't care and was really starting to torque his customers. We had some considerable differences about this and other things...I had/have real ethical problems with his approach. He was a real caveat emptor kind of guy. No, he isn't Bill Gates, but he thinks like him.

The_Emperor

09-14-2004, 20:09

I hate piracy of games. It only harms the PC gaming industry and encourages developers to go towards consoles instead.

CA have slaved away for the past few years to bring us this great game and it is only right that we fulfill our end of the bargain and pay for it proper. (think of us next time you collect your payslips guys)

There is no point in downloading a cracked-virus/hacked ridden version of the game because you have no patience to wait a week or two!

I mean how long have we waited for this? Some of us have been waiting for well over a year and a half, and quite frankly another two weeks is peanuts in comparison!!

The fate of all WAREZ gamers... :hanged::rifle::furious3:

As for CD swapping. Now I do not mind having a cd in the drive for the process of authentication when the game starts, but a full install option is something I like. Modern Hard drives are huge and people often have Gb's of space to spare... Plus its a lot more efficient to have as much running from the HD as possible.

I do not like cd swapping, but I do not like no-cd cracks either.

Besides isn't the DEMO the Try before you buy option??

Stuie

09-14-2004, 21:09

I hate piracy of games.

(snip a bunch of good points)

Besides isn't the DEMO the Try before you buy option??

Yes, the demo is the free test drive. If you don't like it, don't buy the game. If you feel it doesn't provide enough to form an opinion, then wait for reviews from sources you trust. There is NO EXCUSE for downloading pirated software. It's just plain wrong, and frankly I find it amazing that anyone would argue otherwise.

Jambo

09-14-2004, 23:29

Actually, to be perfectly honest, the majority of consumer products are not try before you buy. You don't get to try out your 28" Flat Screen TV, you don't get to try out a boardgame, you don't get to try out a DVD. Simply put, you have either got to go by word of mouth whether that be by a review or a friend who's already bought it, or you buy it and then attempt to return it.

In reality you are often better afforded with a computer game, as there's usually a demo and there will be countless reviews. That is assuming you have the will power to resist buying the product until after the first reviews start to appear.

Patricius

09-14-2004, 23:35

Hello,

If there a week+ delay for the UK release does anyone know of a good mail order company that can ship outside the US as close to next day as possible?

Red Harvest

09-15-2004, 02:16

I do not like cd swapping, but I do not like no-cd cracks either.

And pray tell, why? The no-cd crack just lets you run your legal copy without the CD in the drive. So you dislike something that makes your use of the software easier??? Hello???

It has other benefits, it also keeps the game from writing to the registry on the following boot--something that you would really hate if you understood the risk that involves. There is no real need for the CD in the drive, and there is no need for the game to be dicking with the registry and risking nasty corruptions. What the current anti-piracy system amounts to is software vendors treating all of their customers like thieves and causing their legal customers unwarranted trouble...hmmm...I see a theme developing... As an aside, have you ever noticed in MS Office that just about any search you type in "Help" will contain a link somewhere to fighting software piracy? And MS should worry since they charge twice as much for an "upgrade" each time, while providing less.

No matter what sort of anti-piracy scheme you develop, it will be cracked. What you really want to minimize piracy is for your customers to feel like they are getting a good bargain. That revolves around both convenience and a good product. The CD schemes in common use defy the convenience aspect.

I have no problems with the CA folks continuing to make a good profit off of these games, I very much want them to and will make my small investment/donation to the cause each time. I also detest true pirates. However, I don't see no CD-cracks as piracy, any more than I see gun owners as killers, or a guy drinking a beer as an alcoholic, or someone who happens to own a burner (that could be used for piracy) as a pirate...

Aymar de Bois Mauri

09-15-2004, 03:39

And pray tell, why? The no-cd crack just lets you run your legal copy without the CD in the drive. So you dislike something that makes your use of the software easier??? Hello???

It has other benefits, it also keeps the game from writing to the registry on the following boot--something that you would really hate if you understood the risk that involves. There is no real need for the CD in the drive, and there is no need for the game to be dicking with the registry and risking nasty corruptions. What the current anti-piracy system amounts to is software vendors treating all of their customers like thieves and causing their legal customers unwarranted trouble...hmmm...I see a theme developing... As an aside, have you ever noticed in MS Office that just about any search you type in "Help" will contain a link somewhere to fighting software piracy? And MS should worry since they charge twice as much for an "upgrade" each time, while providing less.

No matter what sort of anti-piracy scheme you develop, it will be cracked. What you really want to minimize piracy is for your customers to feel like they are getting a good bargain. That revolves around both convenience and a good product. The CD schemes in common use defy the convenience aspect.

I have no problems with the CA folks continuing to make a good profit off of these games, I very much want them to and will make my small investment/donation to the cause each time. I also detest true pirates. However, I don't see no CD-cracks as piracy, any more than I see gun owners as killers, or a guy drinking a beer as an alcoholic, or someone who happens to own a burner (that could be used for piracy) as a pirate...
Agreed. In every point.

Jacque Schtrapp

09-15-2004, 04:03

I find myself shocked and saddened that a discussion on the nature of theft is even necessary. ~:(

The_Emperor

09-15-2004, 08:16

And pray tell, why? The no-cd crack just lets you run your legal copy without the CD in the drive. So you dislike something that makes your use of the software easier??? Hello???

It does not really make my use of the software much easier, since most games I play have come with a full install option. Like I say I have nothing agaisnt one cd sitting in the drive for the purposes of authentication when the game runs. Since most games such as Doom 3 or Max Payne 2 mainly use a "Play disc" when they run I do not see the point of using a CD-Crack on them since after the install they only use the one cd.

But to be honest I think the main reason why someone would want to not use their cds is that they were sending those cds over to their mates for them to play. In that case it does constitute piracy.

As long as the CD-rom is not accessed heavily I am happy with it.

hoom

09-15-2004, 13:48

I find this topic quite tiresome.
Especially given that the sum total time difference between release in the US & locally is a shocking 2 days ~:flirt:

Ldvs

09-15-2004, 13:59

I find this topic quite tiresome.
Especially given that the sum total time difference between release in the US & locally is a shocking 2 days ~:flirt:

Actually, it is likely to be 9 days later, if not further delayed.

The_Emperor

09-15-2004, 14:09

I find this topic quite tiresome.
Especially given that the sum total time difference between release in the US & locally is a shocking 2 days ~:flirt:

Exactly it is very tiresome.

At any rate no official announcements have been made regarding a Europe release date, so all this 1st October stuff is just an estimate by the retailers really.

frogbeastegg

09-15-2004, 14:22

From the .com front page:

Rome: Total WarTM has been released to manufacturing and will be shipping to retailers in North America on Wednesday, September 22. The game will be shipping to retailers in the United Kingdom on Wednesday, September 29 (and should be on sale around the 1st of October). Other release dates will be announced soon.

The_Emperor

09-15-2004, 14:29

if thats true then judging my those dates the US gets it on the 24th September and we get it on the 1st October.

Only a measely 7 days between the two dates... I sugguest you go out and enjoy life in that time, because RTW will probably take it over afterwards!

RTKLamorak

09-15-2004, 14:30

But to be honest I think the main reason why someone would want to not use their cds is that they were sending those cds over to their mates for them to play. In that case it does constitute piracy.

lol! Actually, i like having ALL my games just a shortcut away. Each of my games has a desktop icon that DOESNT need a CD, as well as being linked into my graphics control panel, which basically creates profiles for individual games and thus changes the display settings for each game once they have been loaded, saving me even more time/effort.

Again, we come back to convienience. Id rather not have to load a CD, and change the display settings between EVERY game. If there is the software out there to do this with fully licensed/purchased software than i will do that.

The_Emperor

09-15-2004, 15:42

For the sake of pressing a button and putting a cd in the drive i just don't understand where all the strain is involved... Besides I don't have to change all my display settings for each game I play. My hardware is good enough to work with most stuff without tweaking.

JeromeGrasdyke

09-15-2004, 16:13

I agree with Gil here an official nocd patch would be nice.

Noted, it will be discussed with the Powers that Be.

As to the whole piracy debate: it's illegal. It's also morally wrong - we've worked damn hard to get this game out the door, and when you play a cracked, illegal, unlicensed version, that's the dev team's bread & butter you're stealing. It's also harmful to CA and the future games we can create - if Rome doesn't sell, we won't be able to get as large a budget for the next game, and quality will suffer. And lastly it's also harmful to Activision, who as the publisher are often portrayed in the worst possible light in these things, but who've taken chances by allowing us to add innovative features and giving us the time to get the game up that extra level in quality, and should receive credit and their fair share for that.

It's not an abstract, wishy washy thing. This is the hard nuts and bolts of how it works, and these things do affect us -- and not only us but also ultimately our loyal fans and the Total War community as a whole. It is not possible to seperate them.

Boohugh

09-15-2004, 18:07

Firstly, I agree that pirating a game is completely wrong, both legally and morally.

However, we must all face the facts and accept it occurs on a large scale for whatever reasons.

Doom3 became the most pirated game ever in a very short time. It has subsequently emerged that the majority of illegal copies were downloaded in Europe. The reason for this was that the game was released in Europe some two weeks after the US release.

Fact: some people have no patience, as I hope the Doom3 example demonstrates.

We can forever debate the reasons for this and why it is a virtue more people should show, but we must accept that some people simply aren't patient and are willing to break the law to gain something sooner rather than later.

Now onto my main point. We all want good games, like the Total War series, and as Jerome points out, this costs money, lots of it. Taking into account the amount of marketing that has gone into R:TW, I'd like to think it was on a similar scale to Doom3, and I sincerely hope it sells in the same sort of numbers. However, this means that if the release date in Europe is a similar sort of time after the US release, which seems likely, it means that a similar scale of pirating is possible, if not probable, which leads to a large loss of revenue for Activision and CA.

I find it hard to believe that this large loss of revenue due to pirating is smaller than the costs of distributing the game in the US and Europe at the same time. I can understand that it may take longer to get to Outer Mongolia and other such extremities in the world, but publishers need to face up to the fact that the EU is just as big a market as the US.

Since enlargement earlier this year, the EU has approximately 150 million more people than the US. It is the largest single trading entity in the world, and the only reason the US has a higher gross GDP at the moment is because of the internet (historically it was smaller than Europe). The EU is quickly closing this gap and will soon surpass the US in economic terms in the not too distant future. The fact that so many people in Europe were able to download Doom3 in such a short time proves this.

I can understand why developers and publishers are unwilling to take expensive steps to attempt to stop a small group of dedicated pirates downloading their games illegally, but surely the time has come for them to realise that they are losing serious amounts of money by staggering release dates in the US and the EU. The amount of money it would cost to have a simultaneous US/EU release is becoming increasing pitiful when compared to the amount of money they are losing by staggering their release dates, especially when it comes to blockbuster games such as Doom3 or R:TW.

The_Emperor

09-15-2004, 18:37

Got any evidence that they found out that it was the case that Doom 3 was mainly downloaded by Europeans?

it sounds more like speculation to me. Anyway it cannot be justified and my experience is that people who regularly download pirated stuff never buy unless they have to.

Tamur

09-15-2004, 18:58

oops, forgot to get back here... move along, nothing to see here! :embarassed:

Boohugh

09-15-2004, 19:15

I read it in a newspaper article a couple of weeks ago, and as the developer in chrushinators post said, you can, and they do "monitor this stuff".

At no point did I say it was justified to pirate anything, I thought I made that pretty clear.

I also said that I could understand why publishers didn't want to spend lots of money trying to stop the dedicated pirates. However, as people have said in earlier posts, it seems most people are willing to pay for their games. I was expanding on this by saying that they are willing to pay, as long as they don't have to wait unnecessarily.

What is speculation would be me saying that if Doom3 had a simultaneous release, the amount it was pirated would definitely be much lower (although I personally believe this would have been the case).

Having different release dates seems unnecessary in the US and EU (but I can understand more far-flung corners of the world) and encourages large-scale pirating that would not otherwise occur, thereby costing both developers and in the long-run gamers, as the quality of games would fall due to smaller development budgets.

Ldvs

09-15-2004, 19:55

I totaly agree with you LordHugh. But anyway what is done is done, and we'll get the game 10 days later that's all...

This situation will last as long as managers will consider the EU like a lesser market, although it is much bigger than the USA's one.

andrewt

09-15-2004, 20:04

That's the wrong idea. It takes time because of localization issues to send games to Europe. Doing simultaneous release means the game is already available in North America but it just isn't sold in stores yet.

Blizzard has done worldwide simultaneous release. What happens is that many retailers actually ignore them and sell the games the moment they get them. Blizzard holding on to all these games before the release will create inventory costs and distribution problems. You want to ship the CDs out ASAP the moment they're done and let the retailers hold inventory instead.

Also, simultaneous release means that people in the U.S. will have more time to pirate the game. Games, especially the more popular ones, get pirated during the gold copying stage. Simultaneous release never means that other countries get it earlier. It means the U.S. gets it later. If CA does a simultaneous release, we will all get the game on October 1, which means more time for pirates in the U.S. and not less time for the pirates in Europe.

Unless Europeans adapt a single language and a single game ratings system, there will always be delays because of localization issues. Somebody on the official forums already posted how difficult and time consuming it is.

The EU isn't a single market. Single market means you can sell the same thing to everybody, unaltered. However, RTW needs different versions in Spain, England, France, Germany, Italy, etc., etc. That's not a single market. That's the business reality of it.

hoom

09-15-2004, 21:02

Well said.

1 October, heh, my back of beyond bit of the planet is expecting it on the 24th ~:smoking:

Red Harvest

09-15-2004, 22:50

But to be honest I think the main reason why someone would want to not use their cds is that they were sending those cds over to their mates for them to play. In that case it does constitute piracy.

As long as the CD-rom is not accessed heavily I am happy with it.

From the sound of it, you might want to find some better mates. Mine wouldn't be too keen on pirating as you suggest.

Beware of assumptions...especially ones where you are flat out mistaken and where you impugn the character of every one on the opposite side of the discussion. Calling every one who uses no CD cracks pirates is assinine (as you did in a roundabout way.) If you want to dig out the CD every time you swap apps, terrific. If you want it fiddling with your registry, terrific. Many of us don't. However, until we educated you on the issue you weren't even aware.

Patricius

09-15-2004, 22:53

Any company shipping to UK/Ireland? http://www.dvdempire.com was all I could find via Froogle (http://froogle.google.com/). Please help! :help:

crushinator

09-15-2004, 23:14

Good posts Lord Hugh.

I play in an Enemy Territory Clan and was privy to an interesting conversation between 2 players from another team (who use our voice comms server). The conversation went along the lines of this:

player1: Just saw some screenshots of doom 3. people in the US have it now and it looks great. I'm desperate to get this game!!! ... just 2 more weeks to wait!!
player2: i'm not waiting. I'm just going to download it
player1: what? how can you just download it?
player2: just go and [insert downloading instructions here]
player1: cool i'll give it a try. I can't wait to play!

And a new pirate was born :furious3:

This is just a perfect example of publishers giving potential buyers another reason to pirate the game. I guarantee if the game could have been purchased from a store (or even better downloaded leagally on a high-speed server, or pre-downloaded similar to hl2 with steam) the potential buyer never would have thought of downloading the game illegally.

I'm not saying this persons actions were right (if fact i had a right go at them for it) but this IS the reailty of what is happening. I'm not saying there is any one easy fix for this, but it is something that publishers must try and address.

I think the idea in the Brad Wardell article i posted gives some good ideas about regular ongoing updates through a secure channel is a great idea for the developers and the customers :)

Patricius

09-15-2004, 23:25

*TuuSaR-gs* Can player declare war whenever against Senate starting from turn number 1.?

No. The player will first have to build up enough popular support from the people. Popular support can be gained in a number of ways such as controlling and maintaining a large empire, owning Wonders, keeping tax rates low, building public amenities, and lots of other things... When popular support is high enough the player can choose to attack any of the other Roman factions. This will effectively instigate the civil war... Also as the player's popularity with the people and the player's military power increases the senate will become increasingly threatened - and may decide to demand the suicide of the player's faction leader. If the player refuses, the senate will start a war against the player's faction - effectively kicking off a civil war.

The last question the developer's chat was excellent. Demand the suicide of a player - wonderful. It makes the waiting so much harder.

A later date does not give piracy some sort of moral validity. While no one here is saying that, angry posts mentioning it will make some scumbag think he would be a hero if he puts an image up for some p2p downloading service. Were it not for the evil EU rating policy caused ultimately by evil fat bastard tabloids trying to trigger a moral panic, the release date would be nearly simultaneous - I think.

Sjakihata

09-16-2004, 00:27

Any company shipping to UK/Ireland? http://www.dvdempire.com was all I could find via Froogle (http://froogle.google.com/). Please help! :help:

You might wanna check amazon.co.uk

Patricius

09-16-2004, 00:33

crushinator

09-16-2004, 00:51

They will release on 1st October. I would be able to get the game then anyway. What I am looking for is to have it a few days earlier than 1st October by ordering from the US or other places that get RTW earlier.

i looked into and it doesn't really seem worth it

i was told that often it can take a week or more for the game to arrive (due to customs delays etc). So it is quite possible the gmae will arrive after it is available in the UK :dizzy2:

price-wise it would be around £45 for the game + 2-3 day delivery with no guarantee it will arrive in that time (also you may have to add customs charges to that as well :inquisitive: )

www.importmadness.com does these sorts of imports

Patricius

09-16-2004, 02:19

The Wednesday release is the problem. If it were out on a Monday it would order from Gamestop (http://www.gamestop.com) or others with reasonably fast shipping. I have read complaints on Importmadness (http://www.importmadness.com/), so I would be very cautious in regard to them. Still an importer (I assume it is one) is often better than a US retailer - complaint resolution would be far simpler. Three to five days is a typical promise - given that weekends can often be discounted for deliveries - that might mean only three or so days early for a lot more money - duty on top of postage of $15.00.

I will not go near either here or .com (http://p223.ezboard.com/fshoguntotalwarfrm7) for a week upon after US/Canada/Australia/New Zealand release. Others having it and I not having it would be cruelty unbounded :no: ~:mecry: . I would have to use my imagination :duel: or turn into a raving madman :furious3: . Actually no need for any turning there ~;p .

DVDCrave.com (http://www.dvdcrave.com) have a posh man's post :toff: that will get here within 2-4 days for $36.24. How badly do I want it....?

Lord of the Isles

09-16-2004, 10:08

I have no connection with them, but:

http://www.strategic-plus.co.uk/

worked for me when I was too desperate to wait an extra week for Master of Orion III to reach UK shops, and if 1st October turns out to be the release day for R:TW in the UK, I'll probably use them again. MOO III arrived at my front door 1 or 2 days after it hit shops in the USA.

Of course, it wasn't their fault that all that got me was a week's head start on my countrymen on realizing that MOOIII was a piece of half finished, worthless crap.

Jambo

09-16-2004, 10:36

Any company shipping to UK/Ireland? http://www.dvdempire.com was all I could find via Froogle (http://froogle.google.com/). Please help! :help:

You could try www.gameplay.co.uk

Release date Oct 1st and at a good price of £24.99. Add £0.99 for 1st class delivery and you'll get it on the day of release.

Regards

The_Emperor

09-16-2004, 11:17

If you want it fiddling with your registry, terrific. Many of us don't. However, until we educated you on the issue you weren't even aware.

Don't patronize me, I know full well what Windows does to the Regristry in many of its basic functions.
But in the end most of those alterations that having a Cd in the drive upon boot could possibily cause are so minor as to be inconsequential!

Your getting nervous about nothing, and if you are nervous about your registry you can always make a backup of the registry!

Lord of the Isles

09-16-2004, 13:57

I have no connection with them, but:

http://www.strategic-plus.co.uk/

worked for me when I was too desperate to wait an extra week for Master of Orion III to reach UK shops, and if 1st October turns out to be the release day for R:TW in the UK, I'll probably use them again.

Well, I emailed strategic-plus asking for more information about the release date for the US edition and got this reply:

"Supplies from the US will probably not be with us until the UK release date,
Wednesday 29th September. So providing that the UK date will be kept we will
doing the UK edition and not the US one."

So that's one source for imports gone. Anyone know any others?

Red Harvest

09-16-2004, 17:41

Don't patronize me, I know full well what Windows does to the Regristry in many of its basic functions.
But in the end most of those alterations that having a Cd in the drive upon boot could possibily cause are so minor as to be inconsequential!

Your getting nervous about nothing, and if you are nervous about your registry you can always make a backup of the registry!

No, you clearly aren't aware. You didn't even know what the no CD crack did when this discussion started. You did not know why most of us like it. And you called us a bunch of pirates--not particularly nice and certainly not accurate. Furthermore, you dismiss registry problems with the "you can make a backup."

Windows frequently makes backups too, yet when Windows corrupts its registry, it is also prone to pull in backups with some of the same corruptions since this can happen in phases. (Try booting a couple of times with a marginal memory stick--that's an eye opener as to how bad Windows can toast itself.) So telling someone they should backup their registry every time before they run the game is assinine. This unneeded step also gets back to the convenience aspect--what the heck do we need the CD in their for anyway? While I make registry backups at times when doing regedits, it is beyond the skill level of many to do so, AND properly employ the backup if they have trouble.

Your argument is in effect, "Why should anyone want a pencil? Pens work fine. If you make a mistake use correction fluid, or throw away the page you were writing on and start over. I think the real reason people want to use pencils is to cheat by erasing their mistakes." I didn't come in here and call you an imbecile for running with the inferior original .exe (nor say that you should), so I don't think you should go around calling people pirates.

And for the record, I started using the no CD crack after MTW appeared to have been involved in corruptions to a machine that eventually required a format to fix. (I rarely format, my older machine has been running 4 years on the current OS install and still runs smooth each day with heavy use.) So much about getting nervous about nothing. Care to try again? You are batting zero right now.

ah_dut

09-16-2004, 18:21

Why thank you i am honoured

ah_dut

09-16-2004, 18:22

Noted, it will be discussed with the Powers that Be.

As to the whole piracy debate: it's illegal. It's also morally wrong - we've worked damn hard to get this game out the door, and when you play a cracked, illegal, unlicensed version, that's the dev team's bread & butter you're stealing. It's also harmful to CA and the future games we can create - if Rome doesn't sell, we won't be able to get as large a budget for the next game, and quality will suffer. And lastly it's also harmful to Activision, who as the publisher are often portrayed in the worst possible light in these things, but who've taken chances by allowing us to add innovative features and giving us the time to get the game up that extra level in quality, and should receive credit and their fair share for that.

It's not an abstract, wishy washy thing. This is the hard nuts and bolts of how it works, and these things do affect us -- and not only us but also ultimately our loyal fans and the Total War community as a whole. It is not possible to seperate them.
why thank you i am honoured

Aymar de Bois Mauri

09-16-2004, 18:26

From the sound of it, you might want to find some better mates. Mine wouldn't be too keen on pirating as you suggest.

Beware of assumptions...especially ones where you are flat out mistaken and where you impugn the character of every one on the opposite side of the discussion. Calling every one who uses no CD cracks pirates is assinine (as you did in a roundabout way.) If you want to dig out the CD every time you swap apps, terrific. If you want it fiddling with your registry, terrific. Many of us don't. However, until we educated you on the issue you weren't even aware.
Couldn't have said it better myself. I'm surprised. Those kind of assumptions are very unlike The_Emperor. :sad:

econ21

09-16-2004, 19:24

Red Harvest I think you are being a little overaggressive for a mod in your responses the Emperor. While he may not have used the best choice of words, it's pretty obvious what he meant was that the main reason why no_CD patches are downloaded is for piracy, not that each and every person downloads them for that reason. Now, that former claim may or may not be true, statistically. But I am 100% sure he did not mean to imply that you were a pirate.

One thing I like about the org is that, even with the fervent political debating in the Tavern, it is remarkably good tempered and posters are usually courteous.

The_Emperor

09-16-2004, 20:05

Ok now I certainly didn't intend for this discussion to get this heated, but it seems we both have probably got the wrong end of the stick. I will try to answer your points, & if I may have offended you in any way I apologise.

Now I will attempt to answer the points in your responses.

No, you clearly aren't aware. You didn't even know what the no CD crack did when this discussion started. You did not know why most of us like it. And you called us a bunch of pirates--not particularly nice and certainly not accurate. Furthermore, you dismiss registry problems with the "you can make a backup."

As Simon stated, I was merely saying that the reason why some people use no cd cracks is for piracy. Now if a person doesn't need the CD to run the game there is nothing stopping their cd's being passed on and used again & so forth... It is the main reason why games needing to read from the CD were initially designed, to prevent people from installing a game and then installing it on another PC (people were used to that from the good ole days of Shareware).

You may well use them for your own reasons, but the use of one does break that part of many EULA's that states you will not alter how the program will run or make any (modding aside) changes to it. So in that respect you are breaking the legal agreement to use the software.

As for registry problems...

Windows frequently makes backups too, yet when Windows corrupts its registry, it is also prone to pull in backups with some of the same corruptions since this can happen in phases. (Try booting a couple of times with a marginal memory stick--that's an eye opener as to how bad Windows can toast itself.) So telling someone they should backup their registry every time before they run the game is assinine. This unneeded step also gets back to the convenience aspect--what the heck do we need the CD in their for anyway? While I make registry backups at times when doing regedits, it is beyond the skill level of many to do so, AND properly employ the backup if they have trouble.

Now I work as an IT Sys Admin and this is something I know well. Windows itself is a god awful operating system in terms of reliability (and security) and even if you succeed in preventing the registy from being overwritten, sooner or later you will get a major error where either the Registry or Windows system files are corrupted.

Its the nature of the beast. The only option to prevent corruption is to make it so that the registry cannot be written to, but what does that do? Thats right makes it so you cannot install, uninstall programs and generally makes your computer practically unchangeable and more prone to problems.

I'm basically saying that no matter what you do, Windows do break and sooner or later you will have to reinstall everything again. That is why it is good practice to backup your data and reinstall Windows after a significant length of time.

From the sound of it, you might want to find some better mates. Mine wouldn't be too keen on pirating as you suggest.

I never said my mates were into piracy of this nature, therefore I am not comfortable with you making such a misunderstood statement about my friends without knowing them...

But my basis for that statement about how cd-cracks are used comes from the fact that I have met many people (some former work colleagues, & some from when i was in College) who did admit that they download games and use Cd cracks for the purpose of not having to pay the ever increasing price for them. Now never once have I met someone who used a cd-crack for any other use than to pirate the software...

Piracy is why those hackers make them, and like them or loathe them their use is still very dodgey.