Byzantium's Theme System

[Dux Syagrius]

I am currently working on a Mod centering around Byzantium 640-1000 AD. I would appreciate input on the thematic troops that the Byzantines used during this period. The problem is that while most historians agree that it was an effective system, I have read some unflattering details concerning training and equipment. Not to mention the fact that the Byzantines did not win many engagements against the Arabs during this time (Akroinon being a major exception) How powerful should these units be?

[lars573]

Don't forget that the Romanian (byzantine) army hadn't changed much in centuries. So Kataphractoi and the byz infantry are in, pretty much the same. Byz cavalry wouldn't be there as they were christianized turks recruited by the romans. And the turks don't show up till the 11th century.

[Dux Syagrius]

The system did change a bit Lars due to the Arab/Bulgar invasions. Sword based infantry gave way to spear based units. Since the Empire was deprived of Its provinces just south of the Danube as well as the Crimea, it lost the ability to raise Hunnic type horse archers so it had to develop its own (Kataphract) From what I have read these horsemen possessed swords, 2 javelins, a spear, a bow, lemmlar armor, and horse barding. This is hardly the descritption for even Late Roman cavalry. I was thinking a two tiered system of raising troops based on historical text: Tagmatic troops (Byz Inf, Tagmatic Kataphracts, Clibarnophori, as well as a variety of Merc troops) built in the Capital. Theme Troops (thematic Kataphracts, Lancers, Skutatoi, psiloi) raised in the provinces. My question centers around how reliable and effective these troops should be againsts both Imperial troops and foreign troops. Some authors have said the theme troops were kind of like speed bumps until the Tagmatic army based in constantinople could arrive. Others said the theme troops became so powerful, certain themes (provinces) became beligerrent (there was almost one rebellion a year during the 9th century) and the system had to be reduced greatly, which caused the need for more western merc troops. I would like this mod to be as real as possible but there are conflicting texts on the subject and even so, information of the Byzantine army from 700-900 AD is kinda spotty... Thanks for the input Lars!

[Sun Tzui]

Hey look for a mod or two that exist on the download section, that are only about adding more units to the byzantines!

Sorry cant be of more help right now but i'm having connection problems.......

*must post before line goes dead again

*Done

[Dux Syagrius]

Thanks Sun. I have tried to add those units but they crash my game and I hate that. In all actuality, most Byzantine units were barbarian mercs. Alot of people don't know that Justinian's recnquest of parts of the old Roman empire was done for the most partby Hunnic cavalry. Armenia was always fought over due to its hardy infantry and lust for war. But disclipline was always lacking. That was one of the major differences between the Romans and Byzantines. One depended on Drill and discipline. The other depended on generalship and strategy. So far, I have just either changed names of units and/or build restrictions so that the Byzantines have to hold onto certain provinces if it wants to add the more "exotic" units to the army.

[Sun Tzui]

Hey Dux! I'm back with more good news for you!

*and no line problems this time! eheheh

One of the mod's with more Byz units is KevKit's mod.

You can find it here (http://www.totalwar.org/Downloads/PHPMTW/Stats.php) , look for KevKit Irae as the Author, also I think NicSo has one other mod for Byz!

[Dux Syagrius]

Ok, I'll bite. Anything helps you know? Question though: If I am modding BKB's mod (only faction names, unit distribution, build requirement) then how do I integrate these units into a mod of BKB's mod? If I use all of his files and it overwrite the ones I need, then I'm really F'd ya know? I took a look at them and I like the medium spearman, heavy spearman etc etc. Thanks brother!

[william the bastard]

have a look on the 8th dark age mod, you will find some ideas for your mod.It's add units for the byz.(note 2 parts to download)

[Condottiere]

I am currently working on a Mod centering around Byzantium 640-1000 AD. I would appreciate input on the thematic troops that the Byzantines used during this period. The problem is that while most historians agree that it was an effective system, I have read some unflattering details concerning training and equipment. Not to mention the fact that the Byzantines did not win many engagements against the Arabs during this time (Akroinon being a major exception) How powerful should these units be?

Here's some introductory info about the Roman military: http://byzantium.seashell.net.nz/articlemain.php?artid=mtp_military

A thorough analysis about the origin and evolution of the Thematic system is in Haldon's Warfare, State and Society In the Byzantine World 565-1204: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/185728495X/qid=1095461927/sr=1-4/ref=sr_1_4/102-9054955-4320129?v=glance&s=books

Thematic armies were also known as cavalry armies. Compared to the part time thematic cavalry, even if they were of variable quality, the part time infantry element was second rate. The full time "regular" part of the thematic forces - cavalry and infantry - were too small an element to be of much use in an offensive war. When the Roman Empire went on the offensive in the latter 8th Century. it was the fully professional "mercenary" tagmatic elements that led the way - by then this force had been expanded beyond the few thousand cavalry infantry of the guard to include provincial units.

[william the bastard]

Hi Dux what aout your progess? i am a bit interessed by your mod :yes:

[william the bastard]

seems dead ~:confused: a bit sad, could be fun to play on the HTW map with biz units. a sort of balkans total wars :bow: ~;)

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

Ok, I'll bite. Anything helps you know? Question though: If I am modding BKB's mod (only faction names, unit distribution, build requirement) then how do I integrate these units into a mod of BKB's mod? If I use all of his files and it overwrite the ones I need, then I'm really F'd ya know? I took a look at them and I like the medium spearman, heavy spearman etc etc. Thanks brother!

If you're using my mod as a base, you're best bet is to install other mods into a separate folder in 'My Documents' say and work from there, copying and pasting relevant sfiles in. In cases like text files, you'll have to open them and find what you need, as simply placing them into your Medieval folder will overwrite my stuff.

I'm sure I have lots of relevant units you can use (Byzantium and Balkans) and you can if you want. Good luck with the mod if its not dead.

[william the bastard]

of course, no others modder's works without thanks :wink2:

[DisruptorX]

I would be interested if you would extend the time period to allow play as the turks. ~:)

[william the bastard]

hy Disrupt, remember it's not my mod idea, it's a Dix's one ~:cool: but i assume if this mod is dead and if i have some help :help: well.. maybe i can do some works but for the moment it's not clear in my head ~:cool: like a rumour, got something in mind and need study the way of modding and History :book: but's growing more and more ind my mind ~;)