View Full Version : RTS Disease casualties - Dawn Of War but please not Total War.
Having laways been interested in strategy games of many types I was keenly looking forward to the release of Warhammer 40k - Dawn of War, having previously collected a huge ork army many years ago for the table top game.
I loved the variety, the versatility, the strategy that could go into simply designing a unit of Nobz, the orkish elite, the mekboyz adding custome bitz to once amputated limz. Surpising the enemy by informing them that although this particular ork had a customised forcefield which was was nearly impenetrable, this particular day it had decided to explode without even taking a hit, and making things go faster just by painting them red ( I kid you not, it was in the rules ).
A game of genius.
I know, lets put it on the PC.
Lets take the cost away from buying the models, the logistics away from having a giant green chipboard playing surface, the annoyingly long lulls between rolling the dice and actualy figuring out what it meant, and lets make it bigger, far bigger, and better, far better.
( Now Pipe up Fascit Marketing Managerial Gimp Who Should Be Slain ) :knight:
Hang on, Warcraft 3 sold alot, lets make every single game ever just like that, give every unit a factory with an annoying bar underneath it, in fact lets put bars under everything, give them 2 bars, one for morale and one for health. Upgrades that you have to upgrade factories for first and lets make the quickest clicker win the day.
( Hush the Fascit Marketing Managerial Gimp Who Should Be Slain ) :knight:
Another great game ruined, truly ruined.
The forums for Dawn of war are peppered, just like here, by posts of people who are just sick and tired of RTS cloning just to get a few sales.
Although, even more peppered by kids going, " WOW, NEVER PLAYED WARHAMMER 40K BUT ITS JUST LIKE WARCRAFT, BRILLIANT ".
Now don't get me wrong, the warcraft 3 type of game has its place. In unashamed, original ventures that the idea suits it can be fun and no doubt achieve great sales to line the pockets of greedy capitalist pigs.
But I am now truly fed up ( please feel free to argue this point though ) of taking a truly great and original genre, game, idea etc and turning into something it just is not and was neer meant to be.
The reason that 40k did so well on the tabletop was the verstility and endless depth that could be incorporated into the world. An army could be nearly identical but still hold deep differences. There were differednt chapters of space marine, different clans of orks ( oh how I loved the goths, brutal bastards), chaos, eldar, etc, but now the factory produces just a few types.
Now, computers are excellent at performing repeated tasks. This means that to produce a varied and unique army could be coded in such a way as to make everyones dreams come true.
Not the repeated task of turning every game into warcraft 3.
Please Please Please Please Someone make a fortune by making a game that the fans want instead of making the games that they are told to make by Fascit Marketing Managerial Gimp Who Should Be Slain :knight:
Ok, I hope you guys see the relevanvce of me putting this post here. This is a disease and TW is showing symptoms, very early symptome mind and at this early stage there could still be time to reverse it.
Managers who understand nothing about great games please take your dirty stained hands off of these great franchises and let them mature and flower into the truly beautiful creatures that they could be.
Ok, I have probably missed a lot of stuff but let the reaction begin.
:bow:
I was also totally let down by Dawn of War. What a bag of pants. I, too had a huge army. In fact I still have. A massive collecion of beautifully painted Space Wolves. I, too was waiting with baited breath for the release of Dawn of War and got on the Beta program as soon as it was released. I played 1 game and quickly realised that I was playing Command and Conquer with Space Marines. Pants. I got bored of Command and Conquer back before it's first clone came out and I can't really see anything inovative about this one.
In fairness, the Rome Total War previews have done nothing but impress me with the inovations I see before me and I sincerely believe I will not be disappointed with this game. Although, to be honest, they could have just improved diplomacy, trade and made a few tweaks to MTW and released MTW2 and I'd be happy for another 3 years ~;)
The space wolves, my favourite space marine launch gremlins at (or whatever that wacky gun did).
DisruptorX
09-14-2004, 15:12
I agree fullheartedly. In an interview with the makers, gamespy printed a particularly incriminating quote, where the guys says that they were going to do something original "but wanted to appeal to a bigger market". ~:pissed:
I cannot even list the amount of times I have seen that exact same quote, always after the spokesperson has talked about how the game has been stripped of everything that made it great.
This makes me furious. Its the same greedy attitude that kills great licenses like Fallout and makes purveyeurs of crap like EA bigshots for releasing nothing but rehashes and expansion packs.
Although, you must be fair. Warhammer 40k itself was dumbed down for the kiddy audience in 3rd edition. Most players are little kids. Most of the strategy is gone from 3rd edition, 90% of all battles are determined in the army selection phase. They also killed the orks ~:angry: Anyway, at least Warhammer fantasy is still going, and better than ever.
I guess that no previous experience with warhammer is good thing going into dawn of war. Sure any idiot with 2 eyes and 1/4 of a brain can see that relic aped WC3 but good making the races in dawn of war. But other than the like to smash stuff orcs, chruchey white bread humans, demon whorshipping humans, wierd techno/magical race, templates that are in all forms of fantasy RTS games warcraft and dawn of war are totally different games. I mean RTS games have only a few templates to set them in, bows and swords ancient/medieval warfare, musketry 16th to 19th century warfare, modern/near furture warfare, and far future sci-fi warfare. These can be augmented with the supenatual and magic on occation, more with the bows and swords type games than any other. I you want an RTS game to be 100% original in every way all the time your doomed to be disappointed. Hell the more I learn about warhammer40K the more it looks like they makers of it (don't remember who they are) just took the generic fantasy races I listed above and set them in a sci-fi world with space ships and machine guns and such.
Now I liked what I saw in the demo, wasn't in on the beta. The resource system in DOW is not 100% unique but it is uniquely implemeted and well done. The infantry system of squads 9 men who can be augmented with heavy weapons and a squad leader is a good idea too.
I guess your experience with table top warhammer has clouded your ability to judge DOW as the RTS game based on a table game that it is. Now your not as bad as the tolkien freaks who want to lynch Peter Jackson for daring to change LOTR, but your getting close. I re-read the PC gamer april issue with a preview of DOW in it and one of the relic crew said that the owners of the warhammer license said that bringing the table game as it is to the RTS world would make a really boring game. I've also been on other forums where warhammer players like you loved the beta and the demo and want the game badly.
well it was predictable but it reallt didn't take long for the - ACTUALLY ITS ORIGINAL WITH SOME GOOD IDEAS AND ITS ME THATS MISSING THE POINT - post to appear on this thread.
What I am saying is that there are enough games like this already and id you want another one then create your own idea. If your going to use a model, game, or whatever thats alredy here then bloody well stick to it. The point about these games is that were originally played by enthusiasts. It just gets washed over when pput in this crappy RTS style.
DisruptorX
09-14-2004, 15:34
lars573:
hehehe, that's because 40k *is* a boring game. ~;p The only good thing about it are the amazing models. I eventually tired of moving 120+ models and rolling 40+ dice per squad.
However, your ignorance on the 40k "fluff" is what defeats your argument. 40k has a great dark atmosphere and backstory, which is what kept me playing despite the awful rules. 40k is the opposite of generic, which is why making a command and conquer clone is boring. I wanted to like DoW, but the be perfectly honest, I have already played the be all end all of resource gathering games: starcraft. The genre needs to be abolished to make room for innovation.
As for "boring rts game", that is the main problem. If they make another warhammer fantasy game, I'm hoping it will be turn based, or similar to total war. DoW is good for a GW-license game, but I simply can't justify paying money for another resource gatherer. I already own warcraft 2.
You missed the main argument that is being made, which I will sum up in one sentance:
Command and Conquer is boring.
And The point of making a computerised version is to rid us of all the annoyances of the tabletop, dice rolling, crappy rule calculations etc.
NOT to replace them with newer ones inherited from really dull franchises such as C&C and WC3.
excellent, a good winge. ~:pimp:
Adrian II
09-14-2004, 15:41
Calm down, Danimal, I feel your pain. I used to play Iron Men & Wooden Ships with a dozen friends, we hand-painted all the ridiculously expensive tin models for the battle of Trafalgar, we devised signalling systems, looked into historical details that would surprise Horatio Nelson -- and just look what Avalon did with it video-wise, it's too awful for words. And there's no way you can sue the pants off these guys 'cause hey, it's a matter of intellectual property rights. If only they'd skip the word "intellectual"..
There was a pretty faithful computer version of Warhammer Fantasy- was it called Shadow of the Horned Rat or something? Problem was, I encountered it very late after playing STW and MTW - it was doing something very similar to those games, but far, far worse. Maybe one day someone will do a TW type adaption of Warhammer or 40k, but sadly it is not this day.[1]
DoW looks like it will keep me occupied for the week or so before the UK gets RTW. From the demo, the SP campaign looks entertaining - the cinematics and graphics are excellent and while it is undeniably a pretty standard RTS (a genre I have never liked), it seems a very competently executed one and has a lot of cool features from the GW games - especially diversity of unit and weapon types.
BTW, the resource gathering element seems minimal - people said it was like Warcraft 3, so I downloaded that demo too but was dismayed to have to micromanage peasant workers. There are no peasant types in DoW. It's just killing and building (rather like TW, now I come to think about it).
[1]I sometimes wonder if it is in Games Workshops interest to have a faithful computer adaption of their games. They make their money selling metal miniatures and would make a lot less if folk just bought one CD from a licensee.
NightStar
09-14-2004, 21:29
Well for me Warhammer 40k died with the third edition, the kiddification was the end of it.
I was looking forward to playing DoW but after I tried the demo I lost all interest. I would rather have played warhammer 40k game that was close to Jagged alliance or Silent storm rather than this RTS clikcfest ~:mecry:
I would rather have played warhammer 40k game that was close to Jagged alliance or Silent storm rather than this RTS clikcfest ~:mecry:
Very true, and Ok, 40k wasn't to all of our tastes but it had some great ideas, - a clickfest not being one of them.
But wait.
I bring good news!!!!!!!!
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=36046
well i would say i have a vested interest inthis particular game but have GCSE coursework over the hill so i must make this short, WH 40K was never IMO gonna be better than fantasy, though i agree that the 3rd edition rules sucked, i haven't played this yet and it looks good but I think to be honest most warhammer pc games suck... though i haven't played them all. the reason is say a game costs 30 quid, in a games store, they make a small profit by selling it to me. However they make a far larger profit if they sell me 2 tactical squads of plastic models 30 quid as well iirc, so after blowing about 150 quid in second hand shops to acquire my army i've given up on GW, it's too expensive. they make a lot more money selling models than they ever will selling computer games.
i haven't played this yet and it looks good but I think to be honest most warhammer pc games suck... though i haven't played them all..
translated as - Am not fully informed but the graphics look nice but to be honest all previous incarnations were rubbish even though I don't know that for sure.
Wow - potential for a laugh ( please don't take personally, just in a daft mood ) :frog:
I have never tasted pie but it does smell good but most pastry dishes are rubbish even though I haven't tried them all.
Football rubbish but good to watch but most ball games are crap even though I am clinically obese.
Havn't shagged my girlfriend yet but she does look good but most girls are rubbish though I only know a few.
Never watched TV but have listened to the audio though most electronic forms of media are crappy although I have only ever used a telegram.
PLEASE, ANY MORE ( or should I just turn tail in shame? )
good lad for admiting you are studying for GCSE's this early in the academic year by the way. :bow:
d6veteran
09-14-2004, 22:58
I feel your pain danimal and know what you mean.
May the fastest clicker win! :(
I was a huge fan (still am) of the Close Combat series. The entire time the series was alive I envisioned that engine (made by Atomic) would do great things. I thought about about how future versions would expand the multiplayer and command and control. I though about how great it would be as a 40k game, a fantasy game, an ancient battles game ...
but no.
That series broke Atomic and is now eaking out an existence in the die hard grognard community.
That style of game has been replaced by a glut of RTS games that are all a slightly different flavor of the Starcraft and Total Annihilation games. Those games were great but I am shocked that they not only keep getting made ad nasuem, but are successful.
We're the minority. It sucks in terms of buying 'quality' off the shelf games.
Dawn of War will be a huge hit and there will be expansions from here till doomsday -- each one adding a new race and new maps and new units. You just watch, GW will dominate this space like they dominate the table top space.
I can't image how cool Dawn of War would be if you had to select an army from a resource pool and then fight without being able to construct barracks and towers and an endless supply of units in "real time". It's really a pity.
well it was predictable but it reallt didn't take long for the - ACTUALLY ITS ORIGINAL WITH SOME GOOD IDEAS AND ITS ME THATS MISSING THE POINT - post to appear on this thread.
What I am saying is that there are enough games like this already and id you want another one then create your own idea. If your going to use a model, game, or whatever thats alredy here then bloody well stick to it. The point about these games is that were originally played by enthusiasts. It just gets washed over when pput in this crappy RTS style.
lars573:
hehehe, that's because 40k *is* a boring game. The only good thing about it are the amazing models. I eventually tired of moving 120+ models and rolling 40+ dice per squad.
However, your ignorance on the 40k "fluff" is what defeats your argument. 40k has a great dark atmosphere and backstory, which is what kept me playing despite the awful rules. 40k is the opposite of generic, which is why making a command and conquer clone is boring. I wanted to like DoW, but the be perfectly honest, I have already played the be all end all of resource gathering games: starcraft. The genre needs to be abolished to make room for innovation.
As for "boring rts game", that is the main problem. If they make another warhammer fantasy game, I'm hoping it will be turn based, or similar to total war. DoW is good for a GW-license game, but I simply can't justify paying money for another resource gatherer. I already own warcraft 2.
You missed the main argument that is being made, which I will sum up in one sentance:
Command and Conquer is boring.
Both of you missed my point, I should have expected this I can rarely articulate my meaning in one post. My point was that I as someone who's warhammer knowledge begins and ends with the box cover I saw in my comicbook store had 0 expectations of what a warhammer game could/should be. Where as the 2 of you had a preconcieved notion of what warhammer should be in video game form. The weight of expectation and the reality of what was delivered was, to you, weighted measured and found wanting. I never said that DOW was original, what I said was that it has a combination of the generic (race mix, setting, story) and the original (game play, resource gathering) RTS elements that make it a good game to me and not to you 2. I also stated that some of the elements that make DOW a generic RTS game were inherrited from the source material. The basic premise behind warhammer being, lets take the standard fantasy races and themes and set them in the year 40k with guns and space ships and stuff.
If you want more innovation in RTS games check out LOTR battle for middle earth. Where you have unit emotions, they get scared, get brave, get pissed. Resource gathering consists of building farms and blacksmiths and have resources roll in no gathering needed. Where you go up in tech levels threw building veterancy, L1 basic grunts, L2 ranged, L3 elite infantry. Where you build buildings by clicking on a specific place on the ground, and [time interval later] a building pops up.
I can't image how cool Dawn of War would be if you had to select an army from a resource pool and then fight without being able to construct barracks and towers and an endless supply of units in "real time". It's really a pity.
I think I saw an option in skirmish mode to start with all your buildings developed, but maybe it is not what I thought. Capturing objectives to fund supply of troops is inescapable though (unless you can edit to have a map with no objectives).
The Tuffen
09-15-2004, 00:47
There was a pretty faithful computer version of Warhammer Fantasy- was it called Shadow of the Horned Rat or something? Problem was, I encountered it very late after playing STW and MTW - it was doing something very similar to those games, but far, far worse. Maybe one day someone will do a TW type adaption of Warhammer or 40k, but sadly it is not this day.[1]
There were two warhammer games, one was Dark Omen and the other was shadow of the horned rat. Never played SoTHR but was impressed by dark Omen (wish it would still work on XP).
I can't remember what it was called but i also enjoyed another 40k game that was released (had titans in it).
I'll prob get DoW as i get though games pretty quickly.
yeah, dark omen and shadow of the horned rat were both were releases before and just after ( I think ) STW. Horned rat was first and I thought it was great. It really did set me up for enjoying the total war series.
Now these were based on the original warhammer game - standard fantasy stuff. For its time it was good fun.
40k demands something different.
Balls to it - looks like I am going to have to set up my own company to get the game that I want just to show everyone else how great this idea could be. Any volunteers???
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