MTW Reinforcements - How to Handle them Best?

[Tomcat]

Have just started playing a few MTW Campaign battles with 2 - 3,000 troops per side and wondered what are the most effective ways to handle reinforcements?

I know all about how reinforcements work and that many people consider the reinforcement system flawed. What I am requesting is how to make the best use of reinforcements when you are attacking - given the current restrictions in MTW?

For example, I found when you are attacking, the battle normally takes place on the far side of the map in "enemy territory" since the enemy does not usually come to you in this situation. So usually my troops have lost some of their energy while walking across the map and redeploying into particular formations. The first part of the battle was then fought and by the time your archers were out of arrows, the enemy was usually either very considerably weakened or routing. So a Ctrl+W then to remove your archers from the field of play and await the reinforcements. Now your archers usually tire before they reach the edge of the map so end up walking the last part and taking forever to disappear. Reinforcements then have to trek another 3/4 of the way across the map to assist your spearmen/swordsmen and cavalry troops. Not good :no:!

Of course, long before your reinforcements can possibly arrive, the first enemy units have routed quickly off the map and new enemy reinforcements come charging on at breakneck speed with only about 1/4 or less of the map to cross before engaging ~:eek:. The result can be none too pretty :surrender:.

So I have successfully tried the following and wonder what others do?

I usually have about 6 units of archers if possible in the initial troops (or 4 if I am short) and use half of them in the initial front line assault. As soon as the first half are out of arrows off they go on Ctrl+W and the second half of my archers take over but I try to use them very sparingly now encouraging the already weakened enemy to engage my spearmen and infantry with my cavalry attacking units on the point of routing from the flanks. This means I still have operating archers available for the second stage of the battle while awaiting reinforcements. The poor old cavalry units are getting a bit tired though, especially if you allow them to chase routers :charge:.

At this time, as soon as the enemy bring on their first reinforcements, I attempt to carry out a coordinated tactical withdrawal of all my forces to at the very the least the centre of the map, preferably nearer to my side. Since the enemy reinforcements are usually running onto the map in great spirits, they usually go for this bait and carry on following me fast. All my initial units are getting rapidly more tired by retreating like this, but with a bit of luck and some good timing, my reinforcements should arrive to join them and then the final carnage phase can begin since the enemy have fallen into a nice trap ~D. I usually set the rally flag (adjusting as necessary) about a quarter to a half way onto the battlefield towards the side being fought on so the reinforcements have as little distance as possible to travel to where they can be effective and I have control of them.

With the reinforcements, I try to have another half contingent of archers (3 or 4 units) come on first followed by horse units. The cavalry can get to the front line quickly but it is usually the archers that are need fastest. I have not so far found it necessary to have spearmen/swordsmen reinforcements high up in the reinforcement queue and have never reached the point anyway where they come onto the battlefield since the battle has always been won long before this - so far anyway :laugh4:!

How do others manage large battles and how can I improve my tactics?

Tomcat

[CherryDanish]

Elsewhere on these very informative boards is a recommendation to mix archers (specifically English LB) and arbs, this is where I feel that this tactic is most applicable. Once you hash out sizable losses to the AI with missle fire a couple times it tends to get gun shy and backs off your formation if it remains intact. To encourage this behavior I like to mix 2 units of arbs with 4 archers (even LB), withdraw my archers when they are out of ammo and since the arbs have a slower rate of fire, which is still very effective, then the AI registers the losses and pulls back without fully commiting it's forces. If it goes right you'll never need to swap out the arbs, but you'll likely get only 2 sets of archers to run out of ammo. Because this is often time consuming I tend to rush enemy forces and chase them off the map, setting up a spear wall, archers in the rear and cav on the flanks where their reinforcements come in and if my archers are out of ammo, I use them as light infantry. I rout them as they enter the battlefield before they can mass.

When defending with large reinforcement options I always choose the highest ground on my edge of the map. Reinforcements are always quicker there. Defensively, I have got the AI to take such losses that even though all my missle units are out of ammo the AI just sits there and stares at my spear wall, even though if it attacked fully, I would be overwhelmed.

When choosing a flag point, I always choose a forward position, close to my front, on high ground, unless I am assaulting a keep, in which case I choose a point in a treeline (if available) closest to the castle, but far enough that they don't walk in range of fire from the fortifications as they come on the field.

EDIT: I would like to add that if you don't mind LOADS of boring shuffling, you can shuffle the order of units (as to when they become avaialble as reinforcements) by doing 2 things. 1) the order you commit your stacks (move them on the map I mean, onto the contested province/fort) influences where units are in the reinforcement list. 2) take one unit the AI gives you at the start and shuffle it in and out. Shuffle another unit, note as you go through the list where the first shuffled out unit is on the list. It will always appear in that spot. By shuffling units in this way you can set the order of how your reinforcements appear in a fight. I don't do this too much, it isn't fun, but it will make fights easier to plan and win if you know you need more archers or cav to chase routers.

[NightStar]

Usually I defeat the A.I with the stack at hand, it is very rarely that I use more than 16 units in one battle, I aim for killing the general and routing the A.I's forces and as missile troops I use Arbs or mounted missile troops that can be used as light cavalry when they are out of ammo.

As for battles with loads of reinforcements you usually have plenty of time to use them as the game is rather generous with the time limit when there are loads of units involved so when I have used reinforcements I usually regroup and attack again (sometimes I sacrifice a unit to distract the A.I)

Using reinforcements in a defensive battle is a piece of cake, the dudes just show up and you use'em

[Quietus]

Hey Tom,

First of all I really don't recommend reinforcements as I personally rarely use them. You might like to read my posts here about efficiency for troops attacking or defending:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=35988

And this one about formation (defending and attacking are basically the same; just line up you shock troops along with the spear in when attacking and you're free to put your cavs anywhere by the flanks):

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=36125

The main messages are:
1. Use a balanced army. Each unit has a strength so find them and use them. The use for them must be cyclical, so each has some resting period (or at least not be engaged all the time).
2. Conserve arrows so they last in a very long battle.

When you have driven out the first wave. Just draw you formation opposite to the mouth of the AI reinforcement channel. Do the same steps I outlined. Just make sure there's enough space.

:charge:
Have fun!

(edit: btw, I have 4 replies on the first post. I'm referring to the 2nd. The first one have some good points too.)

[Morindin]

If you win the first major engagement and you are still relatively intact [attacking], I find sitting at the edge of the map routing the AI off can have its disadvantages.

It can be great for winning that battle in the short time, but in the long term it can be worse.

You really have to give the AI a bit of space so when you rout him again, you have a good chance of capturing/killing more routers, otherwise when rout him on the edge of the map most of his forces will still be intact.
If you are playing MTW 1.1 like me the AI always brings on cavalry and then rabble second anyway, so you ALWAYS have a big advantage over him (your balanced army vs his unbalanced one) and should win relatively easily.

When attacking, I tend to attack with my main balanced army and bring on light and fast reinforcements such as gallowglasses and cavalry who get to the battlefield fast and can act as impact shock troops. Cavalry is also more decisive later on in the game and much more effective when enemy forces are tired, so I find it better to bring the bulk of it on later rather than sooner.

[panchoamd]

I consider that reinforcements is useful in critical or emergency situations.
Exept when you facing a huge army comanded by a good general and you no have a good position even for atack or defend.
In case of defend... trust in your spears and pry!!!!
Find and take an advantageous position, near the rally point and resist!!!

But, (always are a but), if you are attacking... its another thing.
I usually put in the reinforcements queue in first place a couple of units of heavy cavalry. Why? because they are nominal powerful in meele and nominal fasts. And bringme a time to rally more useful units, to rebuild the front and retake a agressive actitude... meanwhile the heavy cavalry distracs some units and disrupts from they formation.

The tip is what the attacker must attack and retreat, and drive into a trap the enemy units or army.

At last, i hope what my opinions be of your grace.

MAY THE FORCE BE WITH YOU!!!!

[Adrian II]

I rout them as they enter the battlefield before they can mass.Seconded. No need for reinforcements if you play aggressively, make a clean sweep before enemy reinforcements arrive and get your spear wall up at their point of entry, preferably at a 60 degree angle to the edge in order to allow their units to fully enter the scene and say a prayer before you hit 'em in the flanks with da Schwarz.

[panchoamd]

Whats happend if you face an army of fast units, like a muslim ?
The answer is forget your spears an trust in your polearms, and your archers must be in pack formation, for fast maneuvres...., and you must pivot in your heavy cavalry.
The key is the heavy cavalry. :charge:
In desert... is so difficult resist a one army of muslims, with good general at command, but, no imposible.

try to cut the comunications lines of your enemy and intercept the reinforcements before they become in batle line and rendez vous with their allies.

divide et impera.

Difficult, but hopefully, you win with one army.

[Morindin]

I've just currently finished fighting very strong Egyptian armies in the desert on Hard.

As the English, the key to victory was Longbowmen. Forget cavalry initially except perhaps feudal seargants, the Muslims have billions of camels and all their infantry has spears. Also they tire too quickly in battle and romping around the feild trying to get to the flanks.

I used lightly/medium armoured troops such as lots of high valour FMAA to counter their spear and axe infantry, gallowglasses, and longbowmen to cut up, well, everything, and then when they became available I bought billmen on the field to hold the center line.

I have played plenty and plenty of multiplayer battles against my GF in the desert (she likes Egyptians) and heavy cavalry is certianly not the key for me. Every time I've used them it I end up with many dead horses, and anything wearing heavy armour be it ranged or foot gets tired far too quickly to be effective. Energetic ghazi infantry cut through lines of CMAA in the desert like they are peasants.

[Adrian II]

I've just currently finished fighting very strong Egyptian armies in the desert on Hard.You can count yourself lucky they didn't wheel out the Nizaris. Those guys shoot you up in surprising ways (because they're fast) and then close in for a fight, not for lack of ammunition but because they have sky-high moral and actually like a fight to the death. Here are some stats taken from Frogbeastegg's unit guide.
Nizaris: Charge 7 Attack 6 Defence -4 Armour 1 Speed 6, 12, 13 Morale 8 Cost 400
Longbowmen: Charge 1 Attack 3 Defence –2 Armour 1 Speed 6, 10, 11 Morale 4 Cost 350
In that case you'd have needed reinforcements. And could have told us how you went about it. Which would be, ehm, on topic. As it were. ~;p

[BigC5]

I rout them as they enter the battlefield before they can mass.

Again, well said ~:cheers: But if this isnt possible I agree with most people and tend to keep some archers back. I find reinforcements tend to rout quicker when they are under missle attack. :book:

[Tomcat]

Thanks for all the comments and suggestions :medievalcheers:.

Maybe I should have said in my original post I am talking about English Early - currently at 1140 AD. So no arbalesters, no crossbows, no mounted archers, no longbows (except the excellent remainder of the 3 bribed units from Wales), no Billmen, no heavy cavalry ~:mecry: but plenty of plain Archers, Spears, Fyrdmen, Highland Clansmen, Hobilars, Mounted Sergeants, Feudal Men at Arms ~:) and yes, my forces are usually well balanced.

I am not a fan of very large battles but I often find the situation where the AI keeps retreating its forces until they are all concentrated in the remaining 1 or 2 Provinces where you end up fighting large battles. This is even when I am attacking the initial Provinces with considerably less than equal forces. For example, I just attacked Hungary, 3 Provinces in 1 turn with less than than equal forces for each and they all retreat to the final and last Province meaning they have about 3,000 troops concentrated there so you cannot avoid a large battle.

Interestingly when I did this, I get a message from the Pope telling me our Treaty has been cancelled - as expected and I'm waiting for my 2 Year Warning. Funny thing was on reading the message closer, he had cancelled his treaty with the Hungarians and keeping his alliance with me lol ~:eek:! At last he knows which side his bread is buttered ~D!

As I said originally, I do not have a problem with my spears or swords being decimated by the enemy. They never seem to let me down. Also, I can usually get the initial enemy units routed without too much trouble with my archers, spears and swords and the odd Hobilar/Mounted Sargeant flank charge. It is the fact the archers use all their arrows and then the length of time it takes to get new archer units onto the field and into battle for which I was trying to find the best solution.

So I'll definitely have to try the "enemy reinforcement funnel" tactic and slaughter the enemy reinforcements as they enter the map and before they realise what is happening. Thanks for that suggestion :2thumbsup:.

Tomcat

[CherryDanish]

Tomcat, I can see why you're having minor problems with reinforcements. The use of archers and strong points in high and late periods is common and getting reinforcements in those scenarios is covered already. I find though that that tactic on English Early isn't really needed unless you're not fighting the French and are facing loads of HAs (from slavic or muslim factions)and/or heavy cav (Byz or crusade cav).

With the French I used a simple cost effective tactic. I basically used 1 or 2 units of spears, 3-4 units of hobilars and filled out my roster with highland clansman. No need for reinforcements. I advanced clan formations through wooded areas keeping the hobilars close, but in open areas. If the French advanced on my cav I'd feint to draw them deeper and throw the clan on them from the woods (where they were mostly protected from missle fire from archer units). My clansmen would eat their vanilla spears, peasants, and archers for lunch and on impact I'd send in my hobilars as the clansmen's attack would generally expose the French flank and I'd rout them quick. It took lots of patience for this tactic to work, but when it does, their reinforcements tend to rout as they walk on the field. My spears I tended to try and keep on high ground (there isn't much of that on most French maps) and I kept them close to my cav. If the AI countered with a cav charge I'd flank with the spear and any height advantage seemed to make the spear charge more effective. If I wasn't threatened by enemy cav I'd send the spears in the enemies rear marching double time (shortly after my cav charge) so that by the time they routed they'd run into my spear and be trapped (use a long thin double or single rank formation for best effect). If you capture/kill the general in this tactic the morale of the French forces is so low from losses and the general hit that reinforcements rout when you look at them funny. The other advantage is you don't waste money on too many vanilla archer units as you'll be ditching them in 1205 for LB. That said, if you're playing a defensive strategy, vanilla archers are VERY effective in that time period.

One of my favorite fights was English early/hard. I had 7 units of Hobilars, 2 units of peasants and 3 units of vanilla archers and I was attacking 2+ stacks in Britany (mostly peasants). I had no reinforcements (obviously). The French AI was unusually timid keeping their primary forces in the tree line. I figured I'd try to draw out their units into my missle fire, but after 25% of the timer had expired it was clear they were not having anything of it. I marched the archers to the edge of the map to entice the French by putting the odds in their favour, feinted with peasants and cav (one of my cav units routed without suffering a single casualty during a feint and would not give me the option to rally). I finally got spear units to exit the wood, trapped 2 spear and one peasant unit and routed them charging with peasants and then charging the rear with hobilars. I took horendous losses, but won the fight charging the wooded French formations with my archers (after marching them back). While this fight is off topic a bit, I think it shows to some extent what you can do in your campaign to avoid having to call in reinforcements. Honestly, I found the English to be a slow start financially (I had bribed the scots, wales, norway, and sweden and had NO cash left for troops and and teching up).

[Adrian II]

The key is the heavy cavalry. In desert... is so difficult resist a one army of muslims, with good general at command, but, no imposible. San Martin, I agree Cavalry is the key if you want to cut their general off from his reinforcements. But Heavy Cavalry?...
The problem with muslim armies is that they usually have the better desert Cavalry -- the Turks and Egyptians have shitloads of Horse Archers and Saharan Cavalry, to name but a few units. How can you "wheel" your Heavy Cavalry round and insert them behind enemy lines to pull this off? I don't see your ultraheavy Templars cutting off an incoming unit of Mamluk Cavalry, more likely it would be the other way round...
Anyway, good to have you guys on board. There are participants from all over the world here, from the glaciers of Okinawa to the tropical jungles of Scotland. I hope your technical problems will soon be solved, but I believe some veterans on this board are already working on it.

So, bienvenido a este foro, caballero! ~:cheers: