R:TW, the good, the bad, the ugly... post here!

[Kraellin]

well, i was going to use the rtw feedback thread, but that seems to be more about release times than anything else at the moment. so, what are your impressions? what do you like? what do you dislike?

so far, the only thing i find either not working or something of a joke is, i cant save in the prologue. when i hit control-s, i get a little window pop up that says 'save failed' that i then click off and return to the game. when i hit the escape key, there is no option to load or save the game.

the prologue is basically the tutorial game, so this isnt a biggie, but still, kind of annoying if you have to leave for something and cant save and come back. you have to start it over again.

other than that, all i've found so far are a couple little spelling/grammatical errors.

the game is huge at almost 3 gigs of harddrive space. there is no option for a 'custom install' which might have saved a bit of space. one install fits all. you get 3 cd's, a very nice paper map and a modest game manual. there may be more of a manual on the disk, since i did see a 'docs' folder when i looked at the folders, so the modest sized paper manual might be enough with extra stuff on the cd.

i havent played the real campaign yet, so no report on that yet.

what we didnt see in the demo was the campaign map. this looks VERY good. there is more info than previous games and it's laid out well. i love that you now get a movement range for each army, each turn. this is a shaded green area surrrounding your armies on the campaign map. when you click on a unit and havent moved it yet, this green shade comes up and shows you how far that army can move that turn. you dont have to go that far, but it does show you how far you can go. when you execute the move, the army then glides along, presumably, the easiest path to where you've asked it to go.

there is definitely more under the hood here. not only do you get an advisor in the tactical portion of the game, you also get one on the campaign map. she, yes she, will advise you on all sorts of things, including suggesting your next army to put in the build queue or the next building to put in the building queue. this is a great touch, particularly for those not familiar with Total War type games.

i also like the addition of senate missions, though having had to quit in the middle of the prologue, i only undertood one of those. i just hope on that one that i'm not more or less forced down a linear line of conquests.

that's all i'm going to report for now, having had to quit in the middle of the prologue. others can chime in here and quite probably fill you in better.

K.

[Colovion]

I dont' like how you aren't allowed to "undo" unit moves.

What if you accidentally click somewhere? too bad

I hope that is fixed.

The Senate Missions are nice and I stayed in the Tutorial for a while longer and ended up seiging two different cities, one controlled by rebels and oen by Greeks (besides the first one). Both of those cities were missions for me to take by the Senate so I'm guessing they just encourage you to expand as they are liable to make you stretch yourself thin as to not be too powerful. I also hope that you can do your own thing because it seemed as if right when I was finished with one conquest they gave me a limit of 10 turns to take another city and by the end my troops had only rested for a couple years.

I like the way mercs are hired now - through family members and possibly when the army is on the move.

The Governer position and keeping your family alive and prospering is a MUST - you can't just throw away family members anymore because you won't be able to govern your provinces efficiently enough (it defaults to automanage).

One of my armies was on the way to gaurd a pass and an army of Gauls had snuck in around my army and were headed towards my city when a Senate's army showed up to block their path - very cool.

I'm off to play. :sweatdrop:

[ElmarkOFear]

I am glad the SP game is good, the MP game is dead for most of the veteran MP STW/MTW clan peeps. I am quite dissappointed in the MP game.

[ToranagaSama]

Appreciate your comments! After the Demo, I've been pretty much on the face re MTW. I'd decided to wait and see, or at least until Best Buy has it's usual 2 week markdown sale. Unfortunately, or perhaps that fortunately, like you, Kraellin, I'm falling for the forum's hype. Think I'll pick RTW up tommorrow, if for no other reason than the Campaign Map appears to live up to the expectations of the all the CA comments, previews and screenshoots. The Battle Interface and Design is another matter.

Anyway, regarding the Prologe not saving:

Are you sure you have enough *Free Space*/ virtual memory and/or System Memory available? From your comments this sounds like the problem. You'll probably find the same issue with the full Campaign.

Luck!

[Doug-Thompson]

well, i was going to use the rtw feedback thread, but that seems to be more about release times than anything else at the moment. so, what are your impressions? what do you like? what do you dislike?

The strategic map interface is vastly better. It's much more intuitive AND packed with many more options. It also amounts to a "how to" guide to playing the game. For instance, the Senate has panels that provide information on diplomatic options. I'm barely into the campaign, and the Senate reports informed me that trade with the Macedonians would be very desirable but that other factions "have little to offer."

You could go all the way through this game following the advice you're given. You'd get your tail beat, though, performing no better than an AI faction. Player skill will make a huge difference, but even a complete noob can get through this IF he follows the advice and the clues.

Intrestingly, spies seem to be much more useful. I started out with one with good skill and he gave me a 40 percent chance of open gates when I attacked a city.

I was very worried that the Senate would be some sort of "super Pope" and a real pain in the behind. I've only played a few turns, but they are much more helpful than hurtful so far. Again, you could play much of the game just by following their orders, at least in the early stages.


I haven't run into the naval warfare bugs that are already being reported in some of the on-line review websites. Naval warfare is still pretty crude, but you can lose men without losing the ship.

Diplomacy is quite similar to what you get in Civilization III.

[Quietus]

Here's some preliminary impressions (I'll make a more organized statements later):

-The 3D strategic map is HUUUUUGE ~:eek: (I'm not complaining ~;) )
-The (?) that summons the Victoria (should be Nike, or is that Greek?) is so intuitive and helpful.
-The siege tutorial I did was sweet!! There are channels fom streetfighting! The presentation in the tutorial/prologue is polished. (I stopped after the siege because I don't like commanding a superpowerful general Julii:no: )

Hate to say this but this looks even more atmospheric than Shogun: Total War. And I haven't even started a full campaign yet :dizzy2:

Hail Rome: Total War!!

[Thoros of Myr]

The Senate is great so far, they are fairly intelligent for AI. They helped me beat back hordes of invading Guals and even landed ships just in time to save one of my cities. Doing the Senate missions really adds variety and a feeling of immersion, as does trying to appease them and move up in thier ranks.

Diplomacy actually feels like a viable option this time around. Diplomacy is sooo great, I'm very impressed with it. You can do all kinds of new things with it, such as when the senate asks you to take a rebel town you can go to the Guals for instance and offer to attack the rebels for a tribute...double your money...Anything you can think of can probly be done if you know how to use it well.

Street fighting is great fun. Sieges feel much more epic.

The advisor is helpful! Who whudda thunk it?

Spies and diplomats are very useful.

The strat map is a 110% improvement. It has to be seen and played to be appreciated.

Nice little touches, saw a Volcano erupt killing 1,000s of poeple. Blockades are a great addition.

The way armies move around feels more realistic and AI seems less predictable so far, atleast in the short-term.

I've played the campaign for 4 hours and I feel like I've barely scratched the surface.

Problems...

There is a bug with units sometimes not willing to move while grouped.
The MP service is not near as good as it could be (have gamespy to thank for that)
Sea battles are still bland but blockades and a few soldiers being on each ship do help make it interesting.
I still feel that foot units move too fast under certain conditions such as flat land.
It's kind of sad that every woman in your family tree has the same portrait.
Generals do seem a little suicide happy, will require some babysitting on your part.
Skirmishing is still wierd but I have actually gotten some use of out them.
Night doesent seem to affect gameplay much at all.
**AI controlled reinforcements are completly idiotic, often sacrificing themselves to the enemy in suicide rushes**

[andrewt]

It took me a while to figure this out. If you want to know how much of your movement bar a move is going to make but don't want to move yet, click and hold the right mouse button. If you click and let go, the army moves immediately. If you hold, you can cancel or change the move.

[Kraellin]

quick post before i log off...

there is a bug in the auto-run of the cd. if you insert the cd and click on 'play' (or whatever it says there), the screen will go away and the game will not start. the icon on the desktop works fine, however.

i also found out that there seems to be a point in the prologue, up to which, you cannot save. after that point, you can. i think they want you to get the basics down before saving. after victoria is done with the basic tut, and announces such, i believe you can then save in the prologue.

K.

[NagaoKagetora]

I am glad the SP game is good, the MP game is dead for most of the veteran MP STW/MTW clan peeps. I am quite dissappointed in the MP game.

Hello Gents

I have been out of the Total War loop since the heyday of STW. Needless to say im very interested in RTW especially the MP side of things.

Elmo can you elaborate abit as to why the MP game is a dissappointment to you?

[Orda Khan]

I think what most people would like to know is has the speed been lowered from the demo? Both kill and run speed?

......Orda

[Barkhorn1x]

Intrestingly, spies seem to be much more useful. I started out with one with good skill and he gave me a 40 percent chance of open gates when I attacked a city.


Yea, me too - and I - idiot that I am - failed to notice the "Open Gates" icon the first time I saw it - so I went ahead and built a (useless) ram and then delayed my attack - instead of just assualting outright.

:embarassed:

Barkhorn.

[Barkhorn1x]

I think what most people would like to know is has the speed been lowered from the demo? Both kill and run speed?

......Orda

IMO - run speed = NO, kill speed = Yes, a bit. Pilum volleys seem to be much more prevelent now too. ~:)

Barkhorn.

[Doug-Thompson]

I think what most people would like to know is has the speed been lowered from the demo? Both kill and run speed?



No.

Bugs with ships and stacks getting stuck have been reported here and by reviewers, but I haven't encountered any such problems yet. The game is quite stable, too. I have had one crash to desktop in about four hours of playing around. It was when I hit a Senate button. Don't remember which one it was. I'll take more careful note.

Haven't found any serious, game-spoiling bugs but there will be a patch if these reports of stuck ships and stacks persist, so all of you who are concerned about speed need to keep lobbying.

The strategic map movement system is great. You can take your whole army, defeat and enemy, and march troops back after the battle to garrison the town before a revolt. Cavalry are particularly useful in that way. Stack "speed" is set by the slowest unit you select, so you can send cavalry and other fast troops farther by sending them on their own.

Also, you can defeat an enemy, clear a path and then keep moving in the same turn. Therefore, one army or fleet can fight several battles in one turn.

[Myrddraal]

So I take it there is not speed scroller like in MTW.

[Doug-Thompson]

So I take it there is not speed scroller like in MTW.

Not quite true: There is one, but the settings could be called "fast, faster, fastest."

[CBR]

Screenshots show no speed slider. Its the same as in the demo with a x1 x2 and x3 option.


CBR

[Doug-Thompson]

Screenshots show no speed slider. Its the same as in the demo with a x1 x2 and x3 option.


CBR

x1 = fast.
x2 = faster
x3 = fastest, but your point is valid. I didn't make that clear. Yes, game speed is regulated just like in the demo.

Sorry.

[GranCactus]

This game is incredibly great. I would have been pleased if had just been MTW with better diplomacy, but it's much more.

Quick question - anyone know how to retrain ships? I've had a bireme with one guy on it sailing around for years. He has an albatross around his neck, too.

[SpencerH]

Stack "speed" is set by the slowest unit you select, so you can send cavalry and other fast troops farther by sending them on their own.

Good. I raised that point in another thread. The funny thing is that the calculated inf and cav walk speeds were similar (if not the same) though in the demo battle.

[Sir Robin]

Finished the tutorial portion and started an Imperial Campaign as the Scipii for a couple of hours. This is definately a time warp game.

First thoughts... Wow! CA put a hell of alot of work into this game.

This is not your older brother's Total War!

The Prologue Campaign was very informative and helpful. Not being used to this I could say it borders on being too helpful. I know that sounds insane but I tend to be part of the we don't need no stinkin manuals crowd.

The battles are definately more chaotic and harder to control than STW or MTW. Still not sure if this is good or bad but it will take time to get used to it.

My main complaint right now is being unable to get the camera to go high enough.

Its very hard to control and coordinate a multi-avenue assault towards a town center. Maybe I am just not using the camera properly.

The strategic game itself is almost brilliant. Of course this is only after a few hours experience but so far it is amazing and immersive.

Family members are critical in RTW! This cannot be understated. No more automatic generals. If you don't have a family member in charge of an army it is controlled by a captain instead. Captains do not stand a good chance against family member/generals.

Unless you select no auto-manage before the campaign begins, you cannot control construction or production in a city without a family member present.

So it is a good idea to have two family members in each city you control if you can spare them. If a governor dies of old age the city automatically goes to auto-manage unless there is another family member in the city.

At least as a Roman faction this game starts turning the screws on you right away.

Ignore Senate Missions at your peril! As soon as I succeeded or failed a mission the Senate would throw another one at me. They appear to be throwing these missions at the other factions to.

Also if you do something the Senate does not want you to, like make peace with a faction they hate, expect your faction/agents to suffer.

I lost a couple of diplomats, accused of being traitors and exiled, after making nice diplomatic offers to the greeks.

It is like a race as each Roman faction tries to expand as quickly as possible. For a slow and steady wins the race player like me it starts cranking up the stress level and emotional connection to the game early on.

Be warned... The Senate is not the Pope!

Senate ships, troops, and agents are also running around the map protecting Roman interests.

While it hasn't happened to me I witnessed Senate ships/troops aiding the Julii in taking and keeping Sardinia on the strategic map.

I also noticed alot of captain led one and two unit armies running around. This raised a concern with me regarding AI ability but they may have been going to a rally point. Yep you can apparently set rally points that your new units will automatically head towards. Have not tried it myself yet.

The biggest WTF? so far was my assault on Syracuse. The Greek faction had eight units in the city led by the faction heir. Right before I moved in and attacked the Greeks moved four units out of the city with only a captain leading them.

Well not to look a gift horse in the mouth I attacked them first and had Syracuse under a Scipii banner in a couple of turns.

This may have been caused by a four unit Carthaginian general-led army that moved into their province right before me. Or it may be that I am only playing on Normal difficulty levels. Will keep an eye on it...

I can easily see the Imperial Campaign soaking up weeks of my pc play time.

Overall... WOW! :2thumbsup:

[GranCactus]

I did have a WTF AI moment. The Macedonians were attacking me in a city guarded by a wooden wall. They had two rams controlled by hoplites. I sent some guys out to (I hoped) kill the ram operators, but the poor legionaries got slaughtered without taking out the rammers. Instead of resuming the wall-smashing, the Macedonians just sat there for a while and then took off.

[LittleRaven]

Lots and lots and lots of good. Haven't seen much ugly. Just a touch of bad.

This is a freakin amazing game. Immersion out the wazoo.

This is not M:TW. Not at all. Battles are much more difficult to control once the action gets started. From what I've seen, there won't be a lot of complex manuvering, which is appropriate for an ancient battle. Your initial setup is very, very important, because your opportunities to adjust it once things get hot and heavy are going to be few and far between. Of course, at least in my experience, the old axiom of "No plan survives contact with the enemy." is also true. Everything goes to hell once the lines meet. And that's a good thing. ~:)

But keep in mind this is coming from someone who spent hundreds of hours in M:TW and who has spent less than 5 in R:TW. It could be that with practice I'll change my mind.

The new strategic map is beautiful, and much, much deeper than the old one. I haven't had a chance to play with these much, but given how important initial placement is, I imagine that ambushes will be quite deadly.

I think the decision to limit direct control of settlements to members of your ruling family is brilliant. Really adds another dimension to the game.

I did have one crash to desktop in my hours of play. I think I clicked on a Senate scroll. Not sure which one.

[Doug-Thompson]

I did have one crash to desktop in my hours of play. I think I clicked on a Senate scroll. Not sure which one.

Me too. Mine was when I clicked the "close" button on the Senate diplomacy screen, after reading up on which factions the Senate did and didn't like.

[ElmarkOFear]

Hi Kagetora. Go here for everything you wanted to know about MP, including screenshots of the interface and an explanation of what to look for:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=36569

[Sir Robin]

One more thing...

A big difference between RTW and MTW/STW is construction/production.

In MTW/STW IIRC if you que buildings/units the money is taken when they start building.

In RTW the money is tken when you order it.

So you cannot que everything like you could in MTW. Requires more attention to what is going on in your city/provinces if you do not want to auto-manage things.

One more thing...

Retraining is also different.

IIRC if you retrain a depleted unit in MTW its added to the regular production que. So you can only get one new unit or one retrained unit at a time.

In RTW there is a seperate Retraining que and as far as I can tell no limit.

Example: After taking Syracuse I ordered a Town Militia unit. Because the town already had the buildings for my Hastati? I also que eight depleted units.

The next turn they were all finished. Should make it alot easier to recover from costly assaults. If your new ~:) city has the required buildings that is.

[Tamur]

Yes, retraining and repairing both move VERY fast. As it says in the description, "0 turns" for the duration. You can queue up a whole lot of these and have them AND a partial train/build going in one turn. It is really nice.

One thing I've found interesting is that you've got to have the population to recruit or retrain from. If you take over and Exterminate a town, good luck getting more soldiers trained to keep the place!

[Barkhorn1x]

One more thing...

In RTW the money is tken when you order it.



Yep - I screwed up on this at the begining - and wondered why I had no $$.

Here's a tip - Spies are important - and a good one can not only give you the goods on the opposition but can even "open the gates" of a city - if you are lucky. Just don't ignore the Open Gate icon in the upper righthand corner of the Assault screen - like I did the first time! Duh! :embarassed:

Barkhorn.

[shingenmitch2]

So far it is what i expected :surrender:

The Campaign map is beautiful, the glitz is there. The campaign depth is much better and is on par with Age of Kings or Civ... which is what I expected. Much kudos there.

BUT
The heart of this game IS, WAS, and ALWAYS WILL BE the battles. No doubt the 3D looks great... but really, so what? The meat and potatoes is how it plays... and here, so far the game is a big SUCK. Instead of an improvement or "+" to MTW, it has gotten worse. In STW, the campaign was the excuse to feature the battles. It gave the battle some greater meaning, but absolutely no doubt, the battle was the point of the whole friggin' game. It strove for realism and strategy. For RTW the battle seems like something that they designed to end quickly so that you can get back to the campaign. I'm very disappointed.

Run rate of infantry is still to fast.

Kill rate is ridiculous, and if u flank, entire units disappear like butter. After first contact the fight is done.

CA got their fast battles, which is what I think they wanted. But that didn't make them good battles.

When units rout, both that unit and ur chasing unit go into "hyper drive" and absolutely scatter... totally uncontrollable.

Tactics have taken a big blow. What we have is a little kiddy click-and-attack-mindlessly game. After you assign ur attack, there is not much to think about because it will be over one way or another really fast.

Lol, I can just hear the "It ROCKS crowd."

Other stupid changes:
Why did they stick the "mini map" as perminiant block at the bottom? It takes up valuable space and makes the "unit cards" too small. And the redesign of the unit cards SUCKS HARDCORE... very tough to see who is getting tired, how much valor a unit has and how much ammo. Compared to STW/MI/MTW this was a huge step down.

Unless our modding friends can help, we're doomed.

-------------------

To summerize:

Strategic Campaign: A

Graphics: A

Battle Play (And the whole point of the TW series): F

Overall:
Well they get what they aimed for, a game that you install and go,
"WOW THIS LOOKS GREAT!"
I think a week from that point peeps will be saying, "well the campaign is interesting..."
a week after that, "these battles are getting boring... no strategy, no tactics..."
a week after that, "anybody want to play MTW?"

For those who told me, "Well CA had to make it to sell, and be happy so that TW continues on into the future."
My response is, "yep, it'll sell, AND they made it stupid-easy to learn the battles -- a 12 year-old can pick it up quick. I could care less that it went gold. More of these sucky battles are on the way in the next version?! Big deal, I'm not purchasing it. And good luck with the loyalty of those 12 year-olds who can't buy a $50 game on their own."

[Elmo]

Everything I've read leads me to believe CA wants you to *watch* the battle, and slobber over the graphics, not *control* the battle. That might work for SP, similar to Kohan I think, but obviously it would kill MP.

[Puzz3D]

Mitch,

Very well said from someone who understands tactics, and how important they are to this game. I got beaten into the ground over at .com by people insisting that faster gameplay would not limit tactics. There is another aspect to loosing interest in the now more RTS like multiplayer battles and turning to the better single player game. That is you loose the social interaction you had with fellow players in multiplayer. Single player is something by definition that you do alone, and as such cuts you off from people if you get heavliy involved in it.


Elmo,

There was a recent post here from a dev who said CA was hoping players could "adjust" to the gameplay after they tried it. That was a red flag right there. Just as you, I don't see less control as improving the gameplay. I don't play this game to test my reflexes. There are tons of other games available that do that. I don't expect speed of actions to be made into a non-issue in a real-time game, but I do expect that, if I'm given x number of units to control, I have an opportunity, if only briefly, to issue the necessary orders to my units to counter an enemy move that I see coming. I don't understand the idea of some players that defense should rely entirely upon anticipation of the enemy's initial offensive moves.

[Red Harvest]

I think what most people would like to know is has the speed been lowered from the demo? Both kill and run speed?

......Orda

No, my early impression is that it's a bit of a mess with cav. I'm not that worried about run speed, but the kill speed is insane at times. Half a unit (either cav or infantry/skirmisher) is dead two seconds after they make contact. At other times it is fine, not sure why. At othertimes the cav gets bogged down and everything is rather slow. Cav action reminds me very much of schooling fish in their movement.

I'm facing the Numidians at the moment. Perhaps it is because I have it on the highest settings.

[Thoros of Myr]

The speed/tactics that play out in battles seems all over the map IMO. Sometimes you do have those fast, no-skill battles where units are melting away like butter and your actions seem useless but at other times you have stimulating, tactical battles that seem as good as anything in STW/MTW.

I could completly write off the battles but that judgement seems premature...

[Kraellin]

ok, someone point me to how to make screenshots and where they are stored in the game folders. i hit F2 and printscreen both and couldnt find any record. wasnt F2 the old way and isnt that still the same?

i've got one bug-a-boo with one of the senate missions. the senate tells you to go blockade the port of Croton for one turn. obviously the senate knows where this city is, but doesnt tell you where it is. since this portion of the map is a part i havent explored yet, it doesnt show up on my map. ok, so how do i find Croton to go blockade it? well, you can click the 'goto' thing in the senate orders, but it only gives a broad area of the map. you still dont know where Croton is. thus, i failed what would be a relatively easy senate mission. luckily, the penalty was an audit of my books and i knew the auditor :) still, if the senate knows that Croton exists, shldnt i be told also?

i've also a little thing i'd like to add to the game. when i'm marching an army to a specific destination, like a city, i click on the city and the route gets all planned out just fine, but, when i hit end turn the army doesnt automatically continue to proceed on its route. seems to me that if you click on a city like this to march an army to that city that it would simply continue on to its destination automatically, unless it encountered some obstruction or event trigger like running into an enemy army or something.

i love that you can now do more than one thing with an army in a turn. after all, it is a 6 month period, so that only makes sense. nice touch.

and yes, i agree that the governors and family members adds a nice new dimension to the game.

and to shingenmitch, elmo and puzz3d, i'm going to stick my neck out here, without having looked at the files yet, and say we can mod a LOT of your complaints out of the game. that the default tactical game is 'arcade' isnt much of a surprise, really. that's what is the common denominator to rts games these days. and i'm also guessing that CA made the move they made along these lines, at least in part, because it CAN be modded. yes, that leaves the hardcore mp tactical players having to make a 'new' game, and thus separates the mp community, but isnt that somewhat what we've always had anyways when you get right down to it, the hardcore and the casual arcader?

understand, i'm not disagreeing with anything you've stated. the battles are pretty ridiculously fast. i dont have much of a problem with the unit speeds, but i'm not much of an mp guy any more either. i mostly auto-resolve my combats on the campaign screen, so i disagree with shingin a bit, i guess, about the true focus of the game. i prefer the campaign game, but that's not to undermine his wishes and considerations either. each to his own, as it were. but give the mod guys a month or so, and perhaps we'll see a truer sim for the tactical.

K.

[Blodrast]

i've also just played some time into the prologue, haven't started the actual campaign yet. So I won't have any clear-cut comments, just some observations.

Little point in restating that the campaign part is cool, etc. It is.

About town/city management: it's cool, although I was startled to see that the town details are almost identical to Civ: almost same icons, same idea of economic / cultural things that give pluses and minuses, etc. I would have preferred something a bit more original, as far as I am concerned, the town management part feels like playing Civ. Not that Civ wasn't a great game, but ...

Anyway, let's move on.
I would have probably liked to see the dependences in the in-game tech tree browser...which, at least in part, you had in MTW (e.g., right-click on Spear Guild and it tells you that with Baronial Court + Horse Guild it produces CK, etc). Sure, it tells you that some barracks will let you produce heavy inf (or whatever), but _when_ can you build that barracks ?
I guess it's not a big deal, but if they did go to the trouble of making an ingame tech tree browser, why not make it complete ? oh well.

The Senate: yes, they do seem really helpful. They also cornered some roaming Gaul armies and covered my ass when I was way too far to do anything about it, which is kinda cool. Maybe. I mean, it will make a huge difference whether they get really big or not. It may be cool to have an overprotective nanny in the beginning (esp. since right now we're all more or less newbies at the game), but I'm not sure if that feeling will last for long.

Battles: ok, have only had like 2 battles, both sieges. I've also had the group bug: give a group some orders, they didn't do it, had to give orders to individual units within the group. BUT, I think, IIRC, that selecting a formation (SHIFT + 1, 2, etc) may "remove" the bug, i.e., after you give it a formation, the group will obey your deployment orders. But I have to check that to make sure.

The cav are yes, very very very fast. You point them and off they go, and one way or the other, it's over while you're blinking. Since I mostly had crappy battles (i.e., my units were much better, and the cavs were general's cav), it was only wins for me, but I'm sure that will change in the "real" world.
The sieges will be interesting, BUT I'm not sure I'll like them too much; and this is why: the AI brought some troops over in front of the gate, and in the space near the wall; so there were some fights there (even though there is practically no maneuvering there, perhaps some flanking if they are really spread out). But there have always been lots of troops on those narrow streets that you have to go through until you get to the plaza. There will be NO maneuvering in the streets (all your units will have to get into really deep columns, some 5-6 men wide), and very very little in the plaza (not enough room, if you bring more than a couple of units).
So, to resume, very little tactics right after breaking the wall, and none whatsoever afterwards. Not a happy thought considering this is supposed to be a game of the TW series...
I am also afraid that it will be really easy for you as a defender to keep the enemy from reaching the plaza. I don't see how a really solid unit of spears with some archers behind it can be dislodged (after all, if there are still formation bonuses, you will have all the depth you can get - and you won't even have a choice about it).
There can be no flanking on those narrow streets, and as far as rearing is concerned, well, get another spears unit and face it the other way.
Speaking of formation bonuses, I haven't found a "status report" the same as F1 used to give you during a battle, telling you attack/def/morale for all your troops.
That's bad, because I feel like playing Warcraft, where some units are under the influence of the Hero's aura, and some are not, and I don't really care how many or which ones they are.

I haven't played enough battles to give a verdict, and to be proficient enough with the interface, but I certainly feel that there's less for the player to do during a battle. Yes, there's deployment, but once it's started, well, it's hard to do anything that will affect the battle in any significant way, because things are happening pretty fast.

I am also a bit concerned about unit formations. I'm not clear whether depth and such still make a difference. Does a unit get a morale penalty because its flanks are not covered ? How about distance from general ? Uphill, downhill, numerical superiority (local), and many other things - and I'm worried because I don't see how we can figure them out, if there's no way to find out what the unit status is at a given point during the battle.

Oh well, I'm sure there must still be things that I haven't figured out about the game, lots of 'em, but overall I am feeling a bit disappointed with the tactical aspect of the battles. People die really really fast, and even though I was a lousy general in my 2 significant battles, I won them easily (sure, better units, and it _was_ the prologue, after all).
But yes, I'm happy with the campaign part, and diplomacy, and town government (with the note about it being too much Civilization-like for my taste), and Senate and missions and agents, but I am not so happy about the tactical part. So far, with very limited first impressions, it's not as tactical as it was in MTW.

[Thoros of Myr]

Sounds like you've only sieged one kind of town...try a barbarian town, they are very wide open and flanking is easy. Street battles are supposed to be claustrophobic, it's only realistic that there isint much maneuvering in them. I like that they get plugged up, it adds importance to arty, when there is a jam fire down the street and bust them up. You can also take side streets and it does aid in flanking if timed right.

[Blodrast]

heh, thanks, Thoros of Myr, that gives me some hope. Now that you mention it, I think they were a roman town and a greek one. Both crowded. I'll have to check out some barbarian ones.

Btw, for people playing the prologue, what missions did you get from the Senate ?
I believe it would be interesting to know if they are different or not, although it makes more sense to check that in the actual Campaign than in the Prologue, which may be pre-programmed to some extent. My first mission was to capture a Greek town, I think, and a Roman rebel one after that.

[shingenmitch2]

Hi Krael ~:wave:

hehe, u auto resolve battles? Playing only the campaign? Don't you think there are better games out there at empire building -- like Civ or Age of Empires? I'm honestly curious as to what u enjoy about MTW campaign better than those games.

RTW might be their equal -- i've not played enough -- but you must admit the game has shifted its focus from STW to RTW. I only wish RTW was great battles AND great campaign. But I have the feeling that the battles were sacrificed for ease of learning and to speed up the overall campaign.

I'm not a modder so I have no idea what is possible. HellenicTW blew me away and thought it was far better than MTW, VI or MI, so there's always hope.

[shingenmitch2]

:laugh4: bwahahahahaa

Just saw you're new tag-line Yuuk. Yes I totally agree. As we know from throughout history good generalship is all about how fast you click your unit!

Bwahhahah... fast... clicking... unit... sounds like bad rosey palm joke!

[Sir Robin]

I am typing from work so my apologies for any misunderstandings.


The heart of this game IS, WAS, and ALWAYS WILL BE the battles. No doubt the 3D looks great... but really, so what? The meat and potatoes is how it plays... and here, so far the fame is a big SUCK. Instead of an improvement or "+" to MTW, it has gotten worse. In STW the campaign was the excuse to feature the battles. It gave the battle some greater meaning, but absolutely no doubt, the battle was the point of the whole friggin game. It strove for realism and strategy. For RTW the battle seems like something that they designed to end quickly so that you can get back to the campaign. I'm very disappointed.

I mostly agree with you about the battles.


The battles are definately more chaotic and harder to control than STW or MTW. Still not sure if this is good or bad but it will take time to get used to it.

However I am still very early in the game and have not had an open field battle yet. The one with the captain led greek force didn't give me the option. They headed for the hills right off.

RTW may be an attempt to balance the strategic and tactical elements instead of focusing just on one.

If you are running against the clock in sieges and battles units need to be faster.

Even the easy sieges that I have had so far ended with only two minutes to spare.

I would have failed were it not for speedier units.

To be fair I should point out that I am a single-player fan. The only multi-player games I enjoy are shooters.

I lack the situational game awareness to effectively win multi-player tactical engagements.


"WOW THIS LOOKS GREAT!"
I think a week from that point peeps will be saying, "well the campaign is interesting..."
a week after that, "these battles are getting boring... no strategy, no tactics..."
a week after that, "anybody want to play MTW?"

For me I doubt this will be the case. The strategic game is so vastly improved that I can already tell that I will be playing RTW for quite some time.

Though I have not looked yet, if the clock can be turned off I would like slower battles. Though kill rate may not be able to be adjusted there is probably a file where unit speed can be changed.

IIRC the potency as well as speed of units could be altered. Yes the product was not made this way but CA was trying to appeal to as many different fans as possible. They did not abandon hardcore fans they simply want more people to enjoy the fruits of their labor.

In this, so far, I believe they have succeeded brilliantly.

It should not be to difficult for multi-player fans to all use the same adjusted speeds and potency files so they can challenge each other online.

In this way CA has made RTW supposedly more moddable so their fans can change the playing experience to suit their particular needs. Up to a point of course.

[Sir Robin]

One more thing...

If you lose your battering ram don't panic.

Once your troops take a wall, no catapults mind you, they can march along the top and capture the gate.

As soon as your outside troops try to get thru the gate it will automatically open.

This one had me confused for a while.

Where is the open gate button???

[ElmarkOFear]

Kraellin get the screen you want then hit the Print Screen button on your keyboard. Then open up one of your photo editors or paint programs and right click and "paste" the pic there. I use Image Composer, which came with the FrontPage98 program I have.

[Del Arroyo]

Kill speed can be adjusted by an across-the-board increase in unit Defense values.

[Doug-Thompson]

Re: Speed and Strategic/Tactical.

I guess it's a mark of shame to use the pause button, especially in multiplayer.

However, I'm not ready to write this game off as a complete loss to tactics.

There's strategy and there's tactics, but there is also something in-between: Operations. Rome-Total War opens up all sorts of operational options that were never available in the Total War series before, and aren't available in Civilization, either.

Skirmishing, ambushes and bringing together troops on the battlefield will be far more important in this game.

I'm going to think this over before posting any more, though. I have an idea, but it's not finished yet. I think this game is going to be very deep, and tactics will matter. Missile troops, for intance, may come into their own in this game.

===============

I would argue that Age of Kings is nowhere in the same league as this game in strategic depth, and I was a big Age of Kings fan. I would put this game at least on par with Civilization in that department, with all sorts of war-fighting options Civilization did not have.

[Dimeola]

Early on was tough....went east vs Greeks. Allied with macedon and took the rest of Greece. Blockaded Syracuse and finally decided to take it. Took Pergamum and then the Lydians. Then blockaded Rhodes and am sieging them. Just pissed off the Egyptians ...but have to do the Senate`s bidding, for now. The Greeks fought a long hard series of sea battles. They still have colonies somewhere but they are all but dead. Am also sending an army against the Gauls, in support of fellow Romans. This map is HUGE!
:)))
D

[Colovion]

I have to say I'm very impressed with Missile troops - but less impressed with the AI getting assailed with my arrows. They generally just stand there until they're all dead.

[Kraellin]

ok, i dumped the prologue (too easy) and started a normal campaign as the julii. got some complaints on the interface here. it's quite weird trying to go from unit to unit to try and keep track of all your units on the camp map. i use the little arrows down in the lower right of the screen to cycle through the units, but, it doesnt always do it. it will cycle through the main armies just fine, but not the ships and spies and diplomats. to do that, you have to first find one and left click on it and then use the arrows to cycle through the rest of these types. quite clumsy, i'm afraid.

i've also had the hidden diplomat thing. what you have to do to find them is, find another agent or ship, click on it, and then use those same arrow keys to cycle through the units till you come to the hidden diplomat. then you can move him.

i love the joining of armies now. very smooth, very easy.

i'm beginning to truly hate the senate, though. it's not that it's buggy or anything, but i'm being pretty much forced to do their bidding. the rewards are decent enough for doing so, but i hate being held on a lease by the Emporer/CA ;) obviously, that has to cease, and fast. i've started to wait for the last minute to accomplish the senate's tasks, so that i can do a few of my own. you've ususally got 5 turns or more to do any given task, so i'm building a 'senate task army' and one where i'm free to carry out my own plans. the struggle for money is also holding me back a bit, so it takes a while to secure cities, get them producing and build up armies that can roam (no pun intended).

i've noticed the sea trade routes and the internal land trade routes and have read the thread in here about these, but only after coming out of the game. so i'll be looking at those again. i did make 2 trade agreements, one with the germanics and one with spain. was a bit confused about how those worked also till i read that thread.

hi mitch :)

i wouldnt argue with you on any of your points. yes, the balance between strat and tactical has changed, but it was quite lopsided before, in favor of tactical. i think the balance now is more 50/50.

as for not playing out the tactical battles, i pretty much quit doing that back in the early mtw days. i just never could get a handle on all those factions, their individual units names and what was what. just too confusing for an old fart like me. and that pretty much killed my mp days also, that and the fact that i was just never good enough to compete on the hardcore level. i was mostly fine with stw.... nice rock, paper, scissors system, but mtw was just way too confusing for me, but i always liked the campaign chess game, so i just started auto-resolving way back when.

and yes, i whole-heartedly agree that a strong strat AND tactical is the way to go. i wouldnt want to deprive the hardcore guys their due. and even though i didnt keep up on the tactical side, is not a good reason to 'dumb the game down'. i mean, otherwise just stick 25,000 men on the field with no differences and let them fight it out with sticks and stones. what's the point? i LIKE that there are games you have to raise YOUR level to play, not dumb the game down to your current level. that's just going backwards.

quite frankly, mitch, i also just got tired of all the complaining. endless, pointless, whining and moaning that CA didnt make the game to this person's or that person's exact specifications, so i quit listening. that muskets could shoot 2 1/2 tiles as opposed to 2 1/4 tiles, or that the length of a spear in the game was a half a meter off...lol. who cares! well, at least not me, not to that extent. the answers were so simple as to elude most and the bickering just went on and on. when i found myself one day on a web site about kentucky thoroughbred horses and how fast they could actually run and sustain this in order to figure out how to mod the game, i began to go, 'uh, am i serious?'. and when i found myself arguing with puzz3d or tosa about the trajectories of a musket ball over a 50 yard length as opposed to a 150 yards, it was time to step back and just play and enjoy what i liked. and what was worse, was when i did do this sort of research and others would just poo-poo it and mod it their own way anyways because of some consideration like 'well, we cant make them too powerful', when in fact they might indeed have been that powerful, i gave it up. too much politics and nonsense and arbitraries thrown in. i began to wonder why even CA continued to make games, because surely they were hearing this sort of thing 10 fold over what i was. so, i made a few more mods just for amusement and pretty much gave up mp. ask tosa sometime about our flaming artillery mod. that was amusing :)

i come on this board because i enjoyed discussing the possibilities and the fun aspects of the game. i helped forge the current .Org into what it is today because i wanted at least a semi-sane forum for creative purposes. too much trash talk and the sane folks walk away, including the devs. it's why i was also careful to name this thread 'the good...' as well as the 'the bad, the ugly'. folks shld practice admiring as much or more as they practice bitching.

now, mitch, i apologise if you think any of my venting here was aimed at you. it wasnt. i've always enjoyed our games in mp, whether we were allies or 'enemies'. you've contributed to these boards and to the game and to the community, so, please, take no offense. you just happened to hit upon a nerve ;)

now, someone already reported that the battles can be prolonged by simply changing the defense ratings. this makes sense, since it was true all the way back to stw. one of my 'amusement' mods in mtw was to multiply ALL defense ratings in that game by 10.... not add 10, but multiply by 10. it was quite interesting. re-inforcements take on a whole new life with this sort of defense rating. battles become epics. it's also an interesting way to test one unit against another. you can watch a unit close up and see exactly what's going on over a longer period of time.

i am one of the original modders of this game. tosa is prolly the first. we tore things apart and put them back together again in ways that most folks havent even twigged on yet. for instance, did you know that you can make rolling fire in one of the TW games? some folks prolly also remember my 'flying units'. those were fun ;) and it was tosa and i that spent hours figuring out how bridges work in stw. lol. that was one oddball object.

anyways, i've strayed quite a bit here. i think my original point was, the game can be modded. i've already looked at a few files and gotten some ideas. and whoever reported the thing about defense values, post the file name and where it's found in the folder system. so, i'm not overly worried about 'game speed', or 'killing speed', or this unit's power as opposed to that ones. just mod it and let the arcade players have their game also. there's room for both :)

K.

[Del Arroyo]

Good post, Kraellin, and typically long-winded :bow:

I hope you are right about the modding potential. I may not buy the game for some time, but I hope the thing gets figured out.

Perhaps the best way would be to create a Mod with very limited, very simple changes. For example-- if people agree that speed is too fast, you adjust only that factor. No re-balancing of units. A mod like that would require much less tweaking, and would have a much better chance of attracting a "critical mass" of devotees.

DA

[Jacque Schtrapp]

I am playing as the Julii and have reached the year 199 BC. It was slow going at first trying to figure out what went where or how to accomplish various tasks. The advisors are not as intuitive about helping you as we were led to believe. Much of their information is too generic to clear up specific problems.

As the Julii I have spent most of my time fighting the Gauls. The AI seems pretty decent as I have had the Gauls continuously attacking me and shifting their formations to match your advance. They also almost always try and flank you. Interestingly enough, they also lay siege to your cities even when your garrison outnumbers them 2 to 1. :dizzy2: At that point you merely open the gates and give them a detailed explanation as to why that is not a smart thing to do.

About ten turns into the game I began having rebel and bandit armies parading around my provinces. I had to restructure the logistics in order to deal with them while continuing to hold off the gallic onslaught. Curiously, after defeating the initial banditry they haven't returned.

Diplomacy is spectacular. Your emissary can contact a faction through another emissary or through an army or city which makes things much easier than chasing another factions emissary all over the map. I have made trade agreements all over the map. Factions strive to make peace and I find my wars usually only last for a couple of years before I or my enemies sue for peace. I am usually negotiating from a position of power so I took advantage of the situation and made demands. Most of the time I can offer a ceasfire in exchange for gold. Recently, I just captured Corinth from the Greek Cities and as they were under siege all across the map I decided to offer a ceasefire in exchange for the province of Halicarnassus. They grumbled about it but accepted! I've still seen quite a few alliances broken, but over all, I am thrilled with the new diplomacy model. :2thumbsup:

I have finally reached the stage in the game where large armies abound and sieges no longer consist of using a ram to knock down the gate. In my battle for Corinth I was assaulting 600+ troops behind towering stone walls. The Brutii sent a nearby force of around 400 men to join in the actual assault. I used Onagers to pound the wall (not very effectively) and siege towers for the main assault. My men using the towers to assault the walls were being slaughtered and those crowding up at the base of the towers to climb the wall were taking arrow fire. I decided to pull all units not already in the tower back out of arrow range. As soon as I did this the gates opened and two enemy units came out and preceded to attack my siege towers at the base of the wall. While this sounds great, it in fact, allowed me to rush troops to the gate which stayed open while the two enemy units attempted to retreat through them. I fought my way into the city suffering horrific casualties. My legionaires held their discipline and we fought our way towards the city center. The Brutii who had set up on the opposite side of the city without any siege equipment came running for the gates to gain access to the city as well. In the city the Greeks attacked down all roads and from many sides. It took quite a bit of effort to drive them into the center of the town and exterminate them. If it wasn't for the AI's mistake in sallying forth to destroy the siege equipment, I don't think I would have won the battle even though with my ally I outnumbered them 2 to 1.

Everything has run smoothely to this point and I am having a blast. It was nice to find out that the game autosaves after each turn. Gameplay seems well balanced and I don't feel like things have spiraled out of control as borders widened and armies grew. There are so many subtle little changes and new additions that I constantly find myself exclaiming "cool!" at the top of my lungs, much to the irritation of my room mate.

I only have a few issues at the moment:

1. It is extremely hard to positively affect loyalty if you occupy a conquered settlement. You may spend 30-40 turns trying to achieve 100% loyalty.

2. Governors have a serious impact on the loyalty of cities, the problem is I often run low on governors even when I marry off all of my daughters to the first available suitor.

3. I've only tried to use ladders in an assault on one city and the ladders never appeared on the field of battle. I reloaded several times just to see if it was a quirk. They never did show up. ~:confused:

4. I seem to have lost track of the last six hours, could someone please tell me what time it is... or maybe just what day it is? ~D

[oblivious maximus]

yes, DA.. a small edit. One to increase overall defenses and such. Small.

[ElmarkOFear]

I was not saying that RTW wasn't good. It apparently is a great Single Player game. My complaints are with the MP side of it. MP has more problems than the first two games ever did. The shoddiness of both the interface (which can't be modded) and the small sprites (which also cannot be modded) is what will ruin the MP game. They brought back the "no player can play the same faction in the same game rule" (which cannot be modded) which means we will have to wait 6 months for the patch like the last two games. The MP lobby has removed the #ignore and #ban commands. The #kick command doesn't work most times. You cannot tell your private chat from public. There is very little info on the game settings given in the lobby and in the game. You have no idea what setting the host is using.

All of these things concern MP and will not affect SP very much. They also cannot be modded, but we will have to wait for months until they decide to give a patch to change these things. The SP game probably lives up to its hype. The MP side however is a victim of the SP success.

I understand, given you are not really interested in MP now, that you really enjoy the SP game. What Mitch, Puzz, CBR and Myself are complaining about, will not affect your enjoyment one bit. Plus the gamespeed issue is an MP problem which the SP players cannot understand. There is no "pause" in MP, and there are up to 6 (Should be 8) other armies fighting and not just 2. The small sprite issue is also more troublesome for MP than SP. SP can pause, SP will not have as many different units fighting and can more easily click on these small units. MP if you miss a click on a unit, it could cost you a flank and then the game. To lose because of a miss click is not what the TW series is about. Well, I should say; "Not what it WAS about." I will probably play the SP campaign, just to see what all the kudos are about, but it will never be as enjoyable as the MP was for STW/MTW.

BTW Kraellin, when you gonna get with Strike, myself, and SoSo. SoSo will be visiting Kentucky for his work around early November. This would be a good time for all of us to get together and finally meet. I really don't mind it if you are 2 ft. 4 inches tall, and have a wooden leg and bad teeth. I would still like to meet you! ~:wave:

[KafirChobee]

I for one totally agree with ELMO. RTW, is a single players game, a cross between Civilization and Lords of the Realm - only with real pretty graphics and the ability to get down and watch the killing at ground level (up close and personal) - TW has made alot of 12 year olds very happy.
What RTW does not do is reflect the past TW series attitude toward providing a serious tactical - no advantage, but to those willing to learn the skills - format. Activision (CA) took a workable, simplistic in design and attitude tactical game (for the MP person) and turned it into something that will end up in one of my drawers or become a X-mas gift to some unsuspecting relative. :yes:

TW was one of the very few series of games I truely enjoyed playing online - guess all good things must come to an end.

Nice graphics btw - in a good tactical game I'ld play it if the troops were stickmen. This ain't a good tactical game. STW was, MTW was OK, RTW is for children - MP anyway. :furious3:

[Plaxx]

Kraellin,

To find the Senate mission, use the map that came with the game...it has all the cities on it!

Also, you don't HAVE to do what the Senate asks everytime.

I feel your pain, MP guys! But the SP game is head and shoulders above MTW in my opinion...the campaign map is just too deep, the battles, while quicker so far (only having battled against Gauls and once against Germans) seem to work well...I think they go fast early in the game because the "barbarians" are not as well armed or armoured, and I usually have a better general.

Tactics must still be used, or you WILL lose. I am not the quickest "buttonmasher", but I don't use pause and can still order my units fairly well. Granted, I have not had more than 10 or so units in my army, but so far the speed is not a huge problem. ~;)

My advice: If you value your spare time, don't buy it!

[Nerouin]

The game is bloody brilliant! Bravo to CA! I've played it so much today that my mouse arm literally hurts!

I haven't been this immersed in a game in years!

[Nerouin]

Oh, and to whomever asked how to find the target of the senate mission: press "f," go to the "senate" tab, go to "senate missions," and click the magnifying glass.

[Kraellin]

i looked the file that one of the CA guys mentions in another thread. this was regarding the units stats. i can see a few ways of modding the kill speed. the best way would prolly be to just increase the hit points of all units. this wouldnt affect their offensive or defensive weapon and armor ratings and thus not really unbalance anything. you can also adjust their armor ratings up and that would slow things down a bit, but that might also unbalance things and the same with weapon ratings, except here you would lower them to slow down the kill rate, but again run the risk of severely altering balance. at any rate, it looks like it can be done rather simply.

ok, in the campaign game i just pulled a bit of a trick. very cute. the greeks had been weakened by constant war with one of the other roman factions. i sent a diplomat and negotiated a cease fire with a demand that they give me a province. they accepted. however, this province (and all greek provinces) were sufficiently far away that there was no chance i could send an army to quell the expected riots. so, i simply trashed the city and got some denarii for the demolished buildings, then re-negotiated a further treaty with the greeks by offering them their city back. lol. it worked! i made a nice little profit from trashing the city and got some tribute from the greeks for giving them their city back and strengthened my ties with the greeks, increasing my influence in turn. and all this was done in one turn by the diplomat :)

i then proceeded to do the same thing with the carthaginians and a very remote city to both of us :) ya gotta love armchair diplomacy :) by doing this all in one turn, you dont run the risk of the riots, which is VERY great and you dont have to pay any upkeep on the new city. those minus 800 denarii taxes can kill you on a city like this.

i've currently made peace with all enemies except the rebels, whom i am exploiting mercilessly. i've also made a few alliances. in playing the julii, i own all of northern italy now with no invasions or hositilities occurring there. the poor senate is having a hard time giving me tasks that amount to anything, so i'm a bit more free to expand my empire..... for the good of rome, of course ;)

K.

[Bob the Insane]

ok, in the campaign game i just pulled a bit of a trick. very cute. the greeks had been weakened by constant war with one of the other roman factions. i sent a diplomat and negotiated a cease fire with a demand that they give me a province. they accepted. however, this province (and all greek provinces) were sufficiently far away that there was no chance i could send an army to quell the expected riots. so, i simply trashed the city and got some denarii for the demolished buildings, then re-negotiated a further treaty with the greeks by offering them their city back. lol. it worked! i made a nice little profit from trashing the city and got some tribute from the greeks for giving them their city back and strengthened my ties with the greeks, increasing my influence in turn. and all this was done in one turn by the diplomat :)

lol... So basically you negotiated the right to loot and raze their towns and cities unopposed in return for leaving them alone.... ~:joker: ~:joker:

[SpencerH]

i looked the file that one of the CA guys mentions in another thread.

What file?

[SpencerH]

Oh, and to whomever asked how to find the target of the senate mission: press "f," go to the "senate" tab, go to "senate missions," and click the magnifying glass.

If the mission is in an area where you dont have troops (or maybe is unexplored by you) you only get the general area of the target from the magnifying glass but the specific location doesnt light up (which is confusing cos it looks like it isnt showing you anything). That happened twice to me.

[Kraellin]

spencer,

the export_descr_unit.txt file. it's located in the Data folder, near the bottom. this is one of the main unit files where a lot of modding will no doubt take place :)

K.

[Del Arroyo]

Ahhh! So the little dudes have hitpoints now! Nifty!

That SHOULD work better than increasing the defense values, though the old method didn't work too bad anyway. I look forward to seeing what you guys come up with! :charge: ~:cheers:

DA

[Bob the Insane]

The guys had hit points in MTW too.. But only one each,,, :duel: ~:eek: :skull:

Except Generals, Princes and Kings...

[SpencerH]

spencer,

the export_descr_unit.txt file. it's located in the Data folder, near the bottom. this is one of the main unit files where a lot of modding will no doubt take place :)

K.

Thanks. I was looking for a file named like that but my eyes must have skipped over it. It looks like stat_health may be the one to tinker with. Most are 1, with a few 2's (mounts are xtra) . Simply doubling all health values may work.

[Kraellin]

the way these things normally work is simple; armor prevents you from being hit and hit points are reduced when a 'hit' gets through the armor. so, you could mod the kill speed either way; give them more armor to prevent being hit, or increase the hit points so they can be hit more often and not die as quickly.

i prefer the 2nd method so balance doesnt go whacko.

K.

[Kraellin]

boy, this thread was already back on page 6 and the game's only been out a short time :)

i've played on medium settings, both campaign and tactical and played on easy-easy as well, just to see the differences, but i'm now on hard-hard and i find this more enjoyable to my tastes. money is tighter, auto-resolving battles isnt a sure thing any more and i've taken to actually fighting the bigger battles on the battle map, where i can win more often and with a better ratio of kills.

and being that i am fighting the tactical battles now, i must say that, having the tactical map linked to to the camp map terrain is a HUGE improvement. this really adds a realism factor that no other TW game has had. as you hit the button to fight the battle you actually start zooming down into the campaign map automatically as if you were actually going to zoom all the way down to the tactical detail level. there is a transition, however, but you still get the effect of playing the tactical based on the campaign map. very nice!

hard is much harder. cities i took easily before are now being captured first by other factions. money is harder to come by and i'm afraid i'm also disappointing the senate more often by not accomplishing the missions. in my defense on this point, what in the world is the senate thinking? who elected this bunch of idiots? why is the senate asking me to do tasks in sepii and brutii areas of operation that are nearly impossible for me? dont they know i'm currently fighting a war with the gauls and cant possibly spare any troops to go capture some remote greek city? i can see i'm going to have to rise to emporer sooner than i planned with this sort of administrative nonsense going on!

as for heirs, i'm having very little trouble producing them or having them produced by others. my spies are 4 star, and my generals can generally sneeze in the direction of the enemy and get a new command star... a bit too easy there.

i've also changed my expansion strategy in hard. easy and medium it was just a cake walk to expand and i would just build buildings in all cities. with money tighter now, i'm using a core of cities to produce my armies and just building up culture and population for taxation in the others. so far, this is working well.

my enemies are much more agressive in hard. the gauls, for instance, are actually being aggressive towards me. they send armies through the mountain passes and attempt to send re-inforcements to those armies. i generally do the same thing and we get this nice little impasse in the mountains until one or the other of us finally decides we can overwhelm the other and attack. this is good.

i have run into one little oddity that i dont like. i was sending individual units to re-inforce various armies and about every third or fourth unit i did this with would sell out to an enemy. ok, that's fine. no complaints. that also tells me that a spy is operating in my territory and as another nice touch, i couldnt see this spy. ok, fine with that too. however, i happened to run my own 4 star spy around in this area and he uncovered the enemy spy. the enemy spy just suddenly showed up on the map as my spy went by. aha! now i gotcha! but, lo and behold, i couldnt kill the sucker. i couldnt bribe him, attack him or do anything to him other than to make him back up a half step by moving an army into the same space as him, but the army couldnt attack him! umm, what's up with that? he's an enemy. he's a spy. it even says on the mouse-over that he's an enemy and a spy! why cant i kill that sucker? and if i can, then what do i need to do to do it? an army couldnt attack him. my 4 star spy couldnt attack him. so, how do you kill an enemy spy? i shldnt have to leave this sucker sitting in the middle of my territory spying on me and getting my armies to go turncoat. this doesnt seem right.

so, all in all, this is a pretty cool game. sure, i'd like to see some fixes, but i'm having fun with the game and that's what counts :)

K.

[LittleRaven]

To take out an enemy spy, you need to hire an assassin. He'll take care of your...problem. ~;)

[Kraellin]

ah, havent reached the point where i have assassins yet. ok. i'll work on that. thanks raven :)

K.

[Akka]

The Good

Ah, well, there is so much good I could spend a whole thread on it. But if I had to choose the very, very best of the good...

- The engine. The graphics are simply awesome. Animations are varied, the units are superb, it's simply breathtaking.
- The real-distance strategic map. It multiplied by ten the deepness of the game, by making terrain, strategical maneuvering, and communication network capital for the conduct of war. The naval side is actually much more interesting, realistic and dynamic than before, too.
- The sieges, which are absolutely superb and actually very interesting to play. While I basically never directed an assault in MTW (autocalc or starving nearly everytime), I'm now playing each one with pleasure.
- All the diplomatic-political upgrading. This vastly improve

As I said, the good points largely compensate for the low ones. But my gripes so far are :



The Bad
Some points that make me thing "ah, too bad they did/didn't do that...", but they don't really hamper the pleasure of the game.

- Naval fighting. It's bland, and the autocalc isn't very good. How I would have LOVED to maneuver ships on the sea... *sigh*
- Timer hard to remove and FAR too short. Please, 20-minutes siege ? 0_o
They should at least have made it optionnal...
- The locked factions. Please :dizzy2:
I love the roman game, and I would have played roman anyway, but really, being forced to finish a game as roman before being able to play anything else ?
That adds NOTHING to the game, that's irritating, and that's, simply put, stupid.
- Graphical interface a bit confusing, and lacking the design of MTW. It makes more "video game" than before.


The Ugly
These ones are points that really damage the game. They aren't sufficient to destroy the huge good points, but it would benefit SO MUCH to have them changed (hopefully, they are easily compensated by mods, but still...).
- Killing rate and routing rate. Seriously, as soon as a unit is dominated, it doesn't get killed, it evaporates. It's beyond slaughter.
- Speed of running/charging units. It's WAY overboard. The walking pace is fine, perhaps even a bit slow, but the running is excessive. Cavalry, particularly, is close to teleporting. MTW was excessive in the other way. A middle ground would be good.
- The cavalry strenght. Cavalry is far too powerful on charge. I could imagine such efficiency in MTW, in the cavalry-dominating era, with knights and steed in full plate armor, but here, it's not the case, and it's close to ridiculous.
- All these problems added together acts in synergy to create a last ugly one : the kill ratio of defeated. While in MTW, the loser would often have a 30-50 % losses (which felt accurate and realistic), here, the kill ratio added with the cavalry power and its ability to run at lightning speed, make it so that the loser usually ends with litterally a handful of units. I often entirely annihilate the ennemy, and routinely inflict 90-95 % losses. It feel far too much "video game" here. Hurts the immersion.



But well, again, the pluses are much more noticeable than the minuses. Great, great game ~D

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

The Ugly
These ones are points that really damage the game. They aren't sufficient to destroy the huge good points, but it would benefit SO MUCH to have them changed (hopefully, they are easily compensated by mods, but still...).
- Killing rate and routing rate. Seriously, as soon as a unit is dominated, it doesn't get killed, it evaporates. It's beyond slaughter.
- Speed of running/charging units. It's WAY overboard. The walking pace is fine, perhaps even a bit slow, but the running is excessive. Cavalry, particularly, is close to teleporting. MTW was excessive in the other way. A middle ground would be good.
- The cavalry strenght. Cavalry is far too powerful on charge. I could imagine such efficiency in MTW, in the cavalry-dominating era, with knights and steed in full plate armor, but here, it's not the case, and it's close to ridiculous.
- All these problems added together acts in synergy to create a last ugly one : the kill ratio of defeated. While in MTW, the loser would often have a 30-50 % losses (which felt accurate and realistic), here, the kill ratio added with the cavalry power and its ability to run at lightning speed, make it so that the loser usually ends with litterally a handful of units. I often entirely annihilate the ennemy, and routinely inflict 90-95 % losses. It feel far too much "video game" here. Hurts the immersion.
Although I haven't got the game yet, I believe that many people mentioned that the demo's tactical battles are similar to the released version in unit speed, unit killing (or dying) rate and cav manouverability. Accordingly, I can't agree more with what you said. It's, IMHO, a Buster Keaton movie, always in fast forward. Besides that, the fact that a direct frontal charge by cav against hoplites isn't much more penalised by heavy cav losses, is ridiculous...

[shingenmitch2]

Hehe, I'm on fire... and I don't think Tosa flamed me ~D

Krae... no offense taken. I understand ur position completely. I hope u are correct about the mods... stat adjustments seem like half-measures, but if we get the tactical play back then I'm all for it. Unfortunately, Elmo is correct about all those unmoddable MP-lobby issues.

(Krae this is not aimed at u, but to others) For those who like to blast me as a whiner [esp. those with 5 posts and never played on-line once] I'd challenge them to look at my STW site and say they've matched 1 tenth of my comittment to this f'n game-series. I spent hours on that site and on beta-testing because I found the original game fantastic. Never complained about it once. I've backed my effort up with 100s of $ for STW, MI, MTW, VI and now Rome... I've paided my due and earned the right to complain when I think the game has taken a turn for the worse.

Nerouin -- I'm always suspicious of the new poster who pops on just at the release to say, "best game ever, would buy it again and again..." not saying ur a plant, but hmmm...

[Puzz3D]

Although I haven't got the game yet, I believe that many people mentioned that the demo's tactical battles are similar to the released version in unit speed, unit killing (or dying) rate and cav manouverability. Accordingly, I can't agree more with what you said. It's, IMHO, a Buster Keaton movie, always in fast forward. Besides that, the fact that a direct frontal charge by cav against hoplites isn't much more penalised by heavy cav losses, is ridiculous...

Well, good luck trying to communicate that to CA because I tried, and you know what their answer was? "We looked at the speed issue, and it's not a problem."


Mitch,

What has happened here is that CA has blown a long standing multiplayer community out of the water. Single players may not realize it, but there is a strategic aspect to multiplayer, and it is in the way the clans operated and interacted. Longstanding rivalries, army preparation, recruitment of members, training, strategic battle plans, scheduling, negotiation, psychological warfare, analysis of replays and brainstorming new ideas are all things beyond the tactics. That's been replaced with a fine campaign game that you play ALONE. Gradually players will figure out the mistakes that the AI makes, and adjust their play to take advantage of it. In multiplayer, your opponents are constantly adjusting what they do, and you have to make compensating adjustments yourself. It's a dynamic feedback system over the long term, and, if the game is well balanced, the battles will exhibit a rich variety of tactics. With a solid multiplayer game, some multiplayers would even put in the effort to create multiplayer campaigns.

[Orda Khan]

What has happened here is that CA has blown a long standing multiplayer community out of the water. Single players may not realize it, but there is a strategic aspect to multiplayer, and it is in the way the clans operated and interacted. Longstanding rivalries, army preparation, recruitment of members, training, strategic battle plans, scheduling, negotiation, psychological warfare, analysis of replays and brainstorming new ideas are all things beyond the tactics. That's been replaced with a fine campaign game that you play ALONE. Gradually players will figure out the mistakes that the AI makes, and adjust their play to take advantage of it. In multiplayer, your opponents are constantly adjusting what they do, and you have to make compensating adjustments yourself. It's a dynamic feedback system over the long term, and, if the game is well balanced, the battles will exhibit a rich variety of tactics. With a solid multiplayer game, some multiplayers would even put in the effort to create multiplayer campaigns.


Very, very well said !
There is no comparison between AI and human opponent, I learnt this after my first MP battle. Yuuki, you have described the dedicated MP player and not the dedicated 'gamer'. The latter turns up in the foyer, plays the game to death in a month or so and then moves on to who knows what new game. Remote as it may be typing chat to a 'name', people have to realise the interaction and friendship that develops. To see that disappear just to suit the masses is one mighty kick in the pants.

.......Orda

[econ21]

Akka - what an excellent post! well said! ~:cheers:

[Lord Ovaat]

I haven't seen anyone else whine about this, so I will. Why isn't PAUSE the blasted pause key? It's a real pain having to always hunt for "P". PAUSE kinda sticks out on the keyboard. And as fast as movement is, seconds wasted equates to many dead troops. Yeah, I've tried puting AI in command of a "wing" or group, but the AI is an idiot. Not my first choice for an assistant. Anyone know how to change it in the programming?

Battle timer should be optional. Not much point in having thousands of troops if all you have time to do is slam them into each other.

Spacebar should tell you position of ALL commanded troop positions.

Camera angles suck, especially in woods. A "real" commander has competant subordinants (hopefully) so he doesn't need to see everything at all times. However, this being a game, units will idly sit by and watch the rest of the army being snuffed unless they are commanded to support. Which IS good. You don't want them wandering around on their own. But you need to be able to see them. Sometimes, just being able to even FIND them would be nice.

And, contrary to what everyone else seems to think, I feel movement on the campaign map is rediculously slow. Just doesn't take near that long to walk from place to place. Remember, each move is six months. That's a long time.

That's all the bad and ugly, except for the array of things listed in other posts in this forum. The Good? Simply the best and most enjoyable strategy game I've ever played. Most of the complaints I have are more than likely just oversites that hopefully will be corrected.

[frogbeastegg]

I just finished my first mini campaign, Julii normal/normal because I hate the way TW just gives the AI morale bonuses at higher levels. I prefer a level field in areas like morale; extra money etc I can live with, but morale :no:

Anywho I wrote this quick and scruffy mini review for someone and I thought I might post it here too.

It's not as amazingly revolutionary as STW but it is far better than MTW. The campaign has depth now, but before you ask no it isn't EU2. Vices and virtues are handled much better, as it province capturing, building etc. Diplomacy has an actual point now. The senate mix things up nicely, far better than the pope. Your Roman allies are great in the early and mid game. Trade works fantastically and the Ai uses it well. The AI ... well it makes some smart moves but can be dumb on normal/normal, overall it was ok. I actually prefer some aspects of this campaign to Crusader Kings.

The battles are ... ok. Kind of too fast, hard to control if you have more than 12 units, but with 8 units I can play without pausing at all. Cavalry rocks, plain and simple. People complain they are overpowered but I like it - they mow down routers in seconds, which is as it should be. Solid, formed infantry can resist and kill them easily, scattered, disordered or thinly deployed infantry will die horribly. I used them to great success and fought them with great success (great losses too, but I was using hastati to take on Macedonian lancers and other heavy cav). Seriously cav is now one of my favourites and I look forward to beginning the charge. Horse archers are great too, moving and shooting helps so much. When I used tactics, swarming, and terrain enemy cav get ripped up easily enough, and when I got careless my own cav was ripped apart. Basically on normal/normal things aren't skewed by AI bonuses and I love it.

Same for missiles, damn it! I love killing like 30 guys out of 241 with one volley of javs, much better than the old days of hitting maybe 2 people. Missiles are useful and desirable now, just like in STW.

I see people complaining about the kill speed but on normal/normal it's fine. On the harder difficulties that will probably change due to the AI bonuses, but to me that means the difficulty bonuses need checking, not the basics.

Valour is now rather rare and less important; I had one unit, my general's bodyguard, fighting and killing in each battle for my entire short campaign and it only got to valour 4 (think that's what 1 silver badge is). It was not unusual for units to get one or two points of valour, but it didn’t turn them into uber units and I felt it represented battle experience very well.

Weapon upgrades are also rarer and only started to appear near the end of my leisurely short campaign. General command stars no longer give valour, perhaps only morale. It's great, nicely balanced so famous generals are feared but not invincible. Also no Jedi generals, I think they got this just right but again people are saying that generals are too fragile. I used mine actively in every single battle; I lost one to my own stupidity and one to a freak accident. I played 3 campaigns, one finished and two abandoned (one to mess about in, one got dropped because I felt like trying Julii), as well as custom battles. I lost 2 out of a potential 100 or more.

Speaking of generals your family is now vital and lively, for lack of a better word. These characters feel far more alive than CKs and the family is handled better, even if you are sort of more limited in how you control it. The people collect vices and virtues logically, frequently and with real impact. Your great generals get new names, Marcus the Victor, Aulus the Infantryman and so on depending on what they do. I got very attached to my top 3 generals and when one died of old age it was almost tragic. Retinues are great features. I'd take my Julii family (complete with Decius the Lazy and his pet idiot) over the Ck bland people any day.

Historically ... Bah Gah! and so on. I can't bear to look at the Egyptians, a pain since I want to play them. I ignored half the units my Julii faction could build becasue Romans with war dogs feels so wrong. I used almost nothing but hastati for over half the campaign. I only ever had one unit of triari and only because I started with it. When I got principes I used them in conjunction with the hastati in a semi historical manner, and I doubt the pre Marian legions will ever be used historically in the campaign. I'm really hoping for some reskinning, unit replacing etc.

Music is bland with two exceptions, the credits song (actually playing in media player right now) and the camp map song 'Divinitus'. It's not bad; just don't want to listen to it outside the game. Voice acting is bad but somehow seems more tolerable than it was in the demo. :squeaky male adolescent voice: "The day is :voice cracks and soars: ours!!" :inquisitive:

Interface is mostly ok; I rebound nearly everything on the battlefield to hotkeys. There are niggles and big problems, for example it is impossible to assign single units to number keys and moving while keeping facing and alignment is very hit and miss.

Not had a single crash, the game feels very polished except for the stupid returning issues, such as suicide generals.

Conclusion: A very good game. I actually had a lot of fun with the campaign, something that never happened with MTW. Custom battles have bored me so far but campaign battles capture the interest much better. I think the problem is, in part, I don’t know what units are fair matches for what. I haven’t actually lost a battle yet in any mode, though I did come close in the finished Julii campaign on several occasions, especially that Macedonian mostly heavy cavalry army in the winter of 262BC...


And as an org special: I love cavalry! I love using it and I love fighting it! I DO NOT want it altered! If it is nerfed I shall mod it back, and if that is impossible I think I might stay on 1.0 instead of patching. I was always a heavy infantry relaint frog in STW and MTW but I am actually interested in playing a cav heavy faction now. :charge:

[Kraellin]

nice reviews. i particularly agree with the MP guys. MP is a special case and the MP hardcore, albeit a small group compared to SP, is a very dedicated group. what they want is a Sim, and the tactical in rtw is not a sim, or at least not a workable sim. it needs work. i was auto-resolving all my battles in the campaign game because i just could not manage the chaos of the real time battle stuff at all. too fast for the most part. you just cant click fast enough to get everything going where it needs to go without using pause, and there is no pause in multiplayer.

to that end, i've modded my tactical game. units now move at half speed. yup. i trimmed it by HALF. it's that much too fast. it now plays more like stw did and i can find and move units and still am a bit slow, but that's good. you dont want it so slow that have to wait ten minutes for a unit to move around to its new ordered position. so, i can now mostly move my units to positions, get them to charge, change the orders of missile units and use my cav to flank and bring up re-inforcements when and where needed, but still keep a brisk game going.

i used the terrain restriction/penalties file that someone else mentioned they'd modded, only i cut the values in half, rather than only 25 - 33%. i was actually a bit surprised that with this much of a cut the tactical didnt slow to a crawl, but it didnt. i could now react and counter move and flank and manage things a whole lot easier, even with 16 or so units. if there's another way to mod movement speed, i havent found it yet.

i've also modded unlocking all factions as playable, except the senate and the slave factions. this opens up all sorts of possibilities. additionally, in looking around at various files, i believe i've also found a way to add new settlements to the campaign map. this could be great fun. one of the things that surprised me in the campaign game is how few towns and so on actually exist. the addition of new ones could make for some interesting play.

so, add to the plus side of things that from the look of all the various files, this game is going to be even more moddable than any in the past. CA seems to have gone out of their way in this respect and i applaud the action!

K.

[econ21]

Cavalry rocks, plain and simple. People complain they are overpowered but I like it ...

Same for missiles, damn it! I love killing like 30 guys out of 241 with one volley of javs, much better than the old days of hitting maybe 2 people.

Nice review, Frogbeastegg, and I agree cavalry plus missiles are great fun to play with in RTW.

But from a historical perspective, these changes from MTW to RTW are a little strange. The ancient period is most famed for its heavy infantry - legions and phalanx. Cavalry and missiles often seem to have been rather secondary (one might say even say auxiliary for the Romans). By contrast, warfare in the medieval period is most known for the knights and longbow. From a historical point of view, I suspect the MTW balance of arms would be more appropriate for the medieval period and the RTW one for the medieval period.

[DisruptorX]

Here's some more i've found

Good: I figured out the turn based economy system, its very good, a part of the game that is actually a step up from MTW. I patched the kill speeds which still are not as great as medieval(which was perfect)

Ugly:Chariots literally teleport in and out of combat. It looks stupid, too say the least.



In MTW the kill rate was just perfect because, if you found it too slow, you could turn up the pace with a handy slider. I liked it slow, but people who wanted it faster could do just that. Here you can either play turbo-charged, or Super nitro-boost speeds. Only 2 options.

[Ktonos]

It was like now, the first days of MTW when all of us were critisizing the Cavalry problems and the fact that even villagers could stand against Knights. One month later they fixed it with 1.1 patch and everyone was happy. Same here, I am sure.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Nice review, Frogbeastegg, and I agree cavalry plus missiles are great fun to play with in RTW.

But from a historical perspective, these changes from MTW to RTW are a little strange. The ancient period is most famed for its heavy infantry - legions and phalanx. Cavalry and missiles often seem to have been rather secondary (one might say even say auxiliary for the Romans). By contrast, warfare in the medieval period is most known for the knights and longbow. From a historical point of view, I suspect the MTW balance of arms would be more appropriate for the medieval period and the RTW one for the medieval period.
I totally agree. It is more and more puzzling everytime, the change of balance from one game to the other. Quite disenheartning, really... :sad:

[Red Harvest]

Good:

1. Graphics
2. Strategic map
3. Improved diplomacy options
4. Trade changes
5. More complex city management
6. Family tree, adoption, etc.
7. Senate missions
8. Mounted archers firing on the move
9. Stability
10. Mercenary system changes
11. Retraining for armour and weapon upgrades and refilling ranks

Bad and Ugly
1. Kill rate and overall speed of the battle map
2. Cavalry overpowered for period (part of this is due to 1)
3. Elephant units too big, too durable, and too cheap on upkeep
4. Pathing in sieges
5. Suicide daimyos
6. Speed buttons tough to get working while accelerated...
7. Friendly fire
8. Phalanx a bit weak defensively--shouldn't take many casualties until they get disordered, or flanked or exhausted.
9. Over rapid routing of flanked units
10. No proper group engage, retreat, charge etc. commands, too much micromanaging required to feel like a "general" managing an army.
11. Chariots are too mobile through rough terrain/woods and behave like light horse.
12. Missile units seem a bit overly deadly.
13. Black hole in the plaza.
14. Inability to control Roman army in a fashion resembling the velite/hastati/principes/triarii form.

[Akka]

I have two "ugly" and one "bad" to add to my previous list, after having played a while :

Bad :
- The lack of decisiveness in naval battle. It's painfully slow to sink ships, and as such you have to repeatedly attack each enemy fleet until they are gone. Considering that they are able to escape each time, and they have some kind of supersteroids fleeing speed, it's tedious and irritating to clean a sea of enemy ships.

The Ugly
- The AI is REALLY not good (at least in medium). I'm pretty sure that the MTW AI was much better. The battle are really too easy, and I don't want to play with uneven rules to compensate.
Additionnally, the AI is unable to keep money. I don't really understand how, but I always have hundred of thousands denarii, while all the other factions are clawing to the bottom.
- Bribes. 'nuff said. The prices of bribes are ridiculously low, and I try to avoid using them, because I can just buy the whole foes' armies for a fraction of the price they had cost to raise. It's absurd.

[Jambo]

Good:
Pretty much everything. I only play with movement speeds at 90% as I don't mind the speed and killing rate too much.
Siege battles on stone walls are truly awesome to watch especially with the screams from guys as they fall from the battlements.

Bad:
Only two real annoyances for me:
AI failing to blockade ports or relieve blockaded ports.
Occasional instances of suicidal generals. It would be nice if the AI really knew how to look after their family members properly.

[frogbeastegg]

I think a large part of why cavalry is more effective in RTW is down to the new engine and the way it allows charges to do more than stop dead the instant they hit anything.

Based on my Roman game I certainly didn't find heavy infantry useless; in fact they were 90% of all my armies. I had 1 unit of cav per army. At one heady point I had 2 but a large battle versus the Gauls soon stripped those two units down to a single half empty unit. The infantry formed the line, did the bulk of the killing and all the other tasks I would expect based on history. I had one unit of missiles per army, usually velities out front skirmishing, and one cavalry to harry the flanks and chase routers. The main historical bugbear was that I used nothing but hastati for much of the game, switching to hastati and principes mixed right near the end.

Anyway, now it's morning and I'm less zombified from a 2 hour Gaul killing marathon I have a few extra points to add.

-On the strategic map one click to show a units route, two clicks to move please! It's too easy to move something you don't want to.

-Bribing is far too easy; it is always accepted. In the early game it was too expensive, but once I had 5 cities and decent trade I had cash to spare very easily.

-Diplomacy is better than MTW but still odd. I had the Gauls down to 2 cities, both under siege by massive armies lead by my best two generals. I offered them a chance to pay me off. The bright sparks refused my "empty threats". Oh well, I slaughtered them all without mercy and won my game.

-AI. Suicide generals, idiotic reinforcements, a tendancy to stand around under missile fire - the usual suspects. I do find cavalry in AI hands something to worry about though; they charge weak points in my line supported by thier infantry, harry my flanks, withdraw and charge again at very sensible times, and generally act in a good way. Er, unless the cav in question is a general's bodyguard, in which case they ride out alone and charge without any support at all.

-Speed controls are very clunky. I have to mash alt+t repeatedly before it works, the fast forward buttons don't always respond to a click, and pause does not like working if the game is not at normal speed.

-Sort of AI related but deserving of its own bit: friendly fire. Fire at will=please massacre my army by shooting them in the backs. I turned fire at will off and my velites still skewered half my hastati without me ordering them to do anything. Missiles are only useful if there are no units in front of them and if there is no melee for them to shoot into.

-Time limit in battles - I want to turn it off. I never played with the time limit on before, having it present makes me fel paranoid and rushed even if it gives me an hour for a two unit battle. Which it doesn't; 20 minutes for a big siege!? Best hurry then :charge:

-Finances. Ok, this is a froggy point and please remember froggy is dyslexic and really does not get on with numbers. My end of turn financial reports make no sense; sometimes they report I lost money but in actual fact my treasury went up by a significant sum. I look at the damned report and I have no idea how much surplus cash I have coming in each turn, so I don't know whether expanding my army is a good idea or not. I really can't deal with my finances at all beyond looking to see if the amount in the treasury has gone down, got bigger or got a lot bigger. If it gets a lot bigger for several turns in a row I assume I can build more troops, how many I don't know because I can't tell how much surplus I have for support costs. This really bothered me in every single campaign I have tried.

[econ21]

Not sure how much value-added there will be in this post, but here's my initial take:

The Good

The campaign map: looks wonderful, turn-based movement point system of movement works just fine; feels much more realistic and like real war fighting than the old "Risk" based STW and MTW maps; opens a lot of new strategic possibilities.

Zoomed in unit graphics, obviously. Watching the falxmen cutting up wardogs was a sight.

Family trees: so much more immersive than the old MTW Princes and Generals.

Retinues: very characterful, still laugh when I read the comedian's description.

Pre-battle speeches: have not got old yet; is fun to relate to vices and virtues: thought repeated bathing in blood stuff was OTT until I read the traits); smiled when the accurate prediction about the likely impact of my lack of spears in the face of much heavy cavalry.

Mercenaries: are now prized regiments of reknown, not cannon fodder.

Senate missions: their short duration and nice reward "goodies" really help give sustain interest in the long and possibly too free form nature of Total War campaigns. As Julii, the selection of missions was uncannily good - as well as goading me into action against the Gauls and Dacians, even the seemingly pointless blockade missions served the purpose of dragging me into Rome's other wars rather than unrealistically act as a separate faction.

Sieges: haven't had big ones yet, but so far they are much improved on those in MTW.

Ambushes! - great idea, well executed.

Sea Trade: no need to push around fleets sea by sea and risk starting a major war through AI piracy, yay! Also seems less "broken" in its economic benefits for the player and accessibilty to the AI.


The Bad

These things are not too big a concern for me yet, but should be tweaked:

Run speeds do seem a tad fast, at least relative to the speed at which missiles can fire at attackers. But it does mean even a Gaulish mass charge makes you hold your breath.

Some cavalry charge bonuses and kill rates seem a little excessive. Preferred the MTW balance. Same goes for missiles (I swear my archers have rifles).

Squalor: worried about what I am reading about when cities get very large. Extermination seems too extreme a solution.

Difficulty levels: Hoof's experiments show hard battles give far too big an edge to the AI. In MTW, it was much more subtle, even on expert (maybe equal to one level of valour).


The Ugly

Strangely, I have to say the the battle map graphics - at least zoomed out. Not sure if it is my computer, but terrain seems washed out in colour and the units look strangely pale/stick like. Much preferred the lush colours and the impressive appearance of far away troops in Shogun.

Ship combat: don't any ships ever get sunk, as opposed to depleted?

Wardogs, Egyptian units, Bull Warriors, Arcani, head hurlers: ahistorical and don't belong etc etc. That said, I suspect RTW units are more historical than those in MTW. Particularly irksome that Egypt is the non-Roman powerhouse for the AI, making it hard to ignore. Would be better - more historical - if Carthage had that role.

Cloned females and children on the family tree.

Battles in the woods: ugly, not sure it is bad as the reduced visibility may be realistic, e.g. makes me worried about invading Germany if it is full of forests.

AI camping on the plaza: battlefield AI generally seems less passive than in MTW, with this exception.

[Magraev]

A few comments.

Yes, it's impossible to get an overview of the battle in a forest, but that's kinda cool. you have to get beneath the crown of the trees and look between the trunks.

I had a beautiful battle as the scipii 2 nights ago, where etna was smoking in the background - very nice.

[Red Harvest]

I have two "ugly" and one "bad" to add to my previous list, after having played a while :

Additionnally, the AI is unable to keep money. I don't really understand how, but I always have hundred of thousands denarii, while all the other factions are clawing to the bottom.


I think this mostly has to do with what faction's you are watching. The Roman factions like the Julii and Brutii seem to have loads of money, while I struggle a bit more (on very hard) as Carthage. I didn't have a lot of extra money as Scipii, either, but I have not tried the other two Roman factions. The Egyptians are rolling in the dough.

[Akka]

I think this mostly has to do with what faction's you are watching. The Roman factions like the Julii and Brutii seem to have loads of money, while I struggle a bit more (on very hard) as Carthage. I didn't have a lot of extra money as Scipii, either, but I have not tried the other two Roman factions. The Egyptians are rolling in the dough.
Ah, well, no, it happened to ALL the factions in both games I played.
Perhaps it has to do with the "medium" difficulty settings ?

[R'as al Ghul]

These things are not too big a concern for me yet, but should be tweaked:
The Ugly
Ship combat: don't any ships ever get sunk, as opposed to depleted?


I observed that even when the parchment tells me that no enemy ships were sunk while I defeated the fleet, the animation of a sinking ship afterwards and its disappearance from the campaign map tell me otherwise. So, both is possible, winning+decimating the crew and winning+sinking the ship. The parchment, however seems bugged as it fails to report the sunk ships.

Apart from that I'm absolutely positivly surprised with the improvement of naval combat. I just love to push those little ships around. You can even deny enemy fleets access to your sea regions by controlling bottleneck straits.
~:cheers:
R'as