So, is Combat Turbo-charged?

[Del Arroyo]

This was one of the primary concerns that many had on seeing the demo, so-- what about it? If you've got the game, post your experience/ideas here! ~:cheers:

[MiniKiller]

its just as fast but its growing on me.

it seems, the more i play it a more realistic speed instead of the fast paced we all thought of it as before.

[LittleRaven]

This was one of the primary concerns that many had on seeing the demo, so-- what about it? If you've got the game, post your experience/ideas here! ~:cheers:Sometimes. I'm not sure how much of this is simply my inexperience with the game, (I remember thinking that M:TW was very clunky and that I much perfered Shogun when I first bought that game) but right now it seems to me like there's a bit too big a disconnect between walking and running. Walking is very, very slow and running is very, very fast. I might not mind this as long as running units tire quickly.

Something that other people have complained about that doesn't really bother me is cavalry. Calvalry works much differently these days. Either they hit the enemy and break through, or they don't. If the intial charge succeeds, the effect is devestating. The enemy unit will suffer huge casualties and will be all but smashed. But if the cavalry doesn't break through, they are in big trouble. Even light infantry goes through stationary cavalry pretty quickly.

Which ever way it goes, though, a cavalry charge will be over prety quickly, and a whole lot of people will be dead. After M:TW, this takes some getting used to, but I'm not convinced that it isn't the more realistic scenario. Cavalry in Medieval never seemed to work right to me anyway.

[Spino]

Generally the movement speeds are fine to me. The Charge speeds however...

Infantry run too fast when Charging. I find it hard to believe these guys could run like Olympic sprinters while weighed down with armor, a shield and a weapon. Even skirmishers were weighed down by their missiles and those who possessed small shields. Their normal run speed seems fine to me.

For cavalry and other mounted units it's the same story except the difference in speed between their normal gallop and charge is so great that it simply looks unnatural. Did the ancients possess some form of steroids or some other performance enhancing drugs that we don't know about?

Units in Phalanx formation move way too slow. I know these formations weren't known for being fleet of foot but come on! This wouldn't be such a problem if the AI only knew NOT to implement the Phalanx formation until the enemy was within a certain range. Then phalanx heavy armies would not have their light infantry and cavalry fighting unsupported by their infantry.

Regarding combat itself the killing does seem to happen at a faster rate. It seems like Units that are being flanked or hit from the behind are particularly susceptible to being massacred in the blink of an eye.

[MiniKiller]

Regarding combat itself the killing does seem to happen at a faster rate. It seems like Units that are being flanked or hit from the behind are particularly susceptible to being massacred in the blink of an eye.[/QUOTE]

and thats how it should be. if a chargeing men of spears or cav take their swords to a units back, of course they will be slaughterd. Even after the inital shock of the charge, now their surronded and many cant just turn around to fight.

[Beelzebub]

Yep, letting an enemy nail your rear or flank should be a guaranteed way to quickly lose a battle. Exposing your rear/flanks is a serious error.

[Jeanne d'arc]

Yep, letting an enemy nail your rear or flank should be a guaranteed way to quickly lose a battle. Exposing your rear/flanks is a serious error.
And should be brutaly punished :charge:

[Del Arroyo]

Regarding combat itself the killing does seem to happen at a faster rate. It seems like Units that are being flanked or hit from the behind are particularly susceptible to being massacred in the blink of an eye.

and thats how it should be. if a chargeing men of spears or cav take their swords to a units back, of course they will be slaughterd. Even after the inital shock of the charge, now their surronded and many cant just turn around to fight.

While being attacked from the rear or flank was usually tactically disastrous, I believe you are wrong in assuming it would mean instant death. There is nothing stopping individuals from turning around and fighting, after all, even if their effectiveness would be diminished.

Even an un-armed man can postpone his fate simply by ducking and dodging.

The Romans were flanked and squeezed at some or another battle vs. Frittigern (a big one, look it up)-- and it still took them hours to be overcome.

DA

[Jeanne d'arc]

I do not mind that the light infantry with no armour or what so ever (like many in the barbarian factions) run that much faster as a legionaire in plate armour but for them to run equally fast is redicolous.Can someone test and compare the unit speeds for heavy and light infantry please?

[andrewt]

Marching speed of cavs seem too slow for me. Running speed, especially for infantry, is very fast, however.

The killing speed is mostly fine except for charges. I think CA went overboard with the flanking penalties and the charge bonuses. Also, it's too easy for cav to disengage after charging in. You could charge enemies in tight formation, get stuck in their midst, disengage and charge again.

[ToranagaSama]

Putting the question more succintly, can anyone give any insight to this:

With MTW, after much effort and experimentation, I developed the following basic building blocks of my tactical defense/offense. The basic tenents of my tactics were to, Stand, Hold, and Maneuver.

More explicitly, the core of my formation consisted of three units of good/excellent strong troops (normally Spears) comprising the middle and front line of my formation.

The Middle unit would be put into Wedge formation, Hold Formation, and Hold Position.

The two flanking units would be put into Close Formation, Hold Formation and Hold Position.

Behind this front line, I would have 2 or 3 units of Archers, Hold Formation, Hold Position, 2 Row Formation.

Basically, my Fighting Style, called for the the front line troops to engage the enemey, and to *Stand and Hold*, while the second line Archers rain arrows upon the Enemy's *Oncoming/Rear* troops. While this Holding/Weakening action was ongoing, I would then use additional *Fast* foot troops and calvary to engage the enemey in Flanking maneuvers.

In the Demo, I could not achieve this to a satisfactory degree as the front line units would not *Stand and Hold* for any appreciable length of time. Frankly, the toughest Roman/Carthage units would act like the PEASANT units of Shogun/Medeival fame, which weren't worth a DAMN!

Consequently, my RTW artillary units (Javelins) were of no effective use, whatsoever, despite their Heurculian throwing distances and *fantasy* animations ~:rolleyes: . Their ineffectiveness had a twofold cause, partly a result of the above-described inability for their *protectors* to Stand and Hold, and the fact that the speed of the oncoming Enemey troops was so fast, in comparision to STW/MTW.

In addition, I had a bit of difficulty with the Interface, as I was not able to place my units in the above-desired formation and/or with the above-desired "Hold Position" Order. Not sure how much of a positive or negative effect this would have had, even, if, I had not problems with the Interface. [I hate the Interface*s* with a great passion!]

Hopefully, the above is comprehensible to, at least, the most experiened STW/MTW players. If anyone can comment as to how, if at all, the above tactics transfer to ROME I would appreciate it greatly!!!

I did well in the Demo, winning all but one battle, yet, the Wins and the Battles themselves were unsatisfying to say the least.

I'll probablly pick up the game in the next couple of hours, but most likely won't play it until I have time to dedicate to it, as I have weekend tasks to do, and company coming over Sunday (GF is cracking the whip, we've got to clean this place!! :whip: )

Taking Bets! Will TS actually buy the game, not load it IMMEDIATELY and start playing for the next 24 hours? I've seen this movie before: GF starts pouting and stomping around, silently and passively agresssive, finally starts up the Vacuum, puts it at is highest and LOUDEST setting and begins to start thrusting the the damn thing under my desk and at my feet!! TS: "Hey, watch out for my Computer"!! GF: "rrrrrmmmm, rrrrrmmmm, rrrrmmmmm...."

Thanks and later.

[Jeanne d'arc]

While being attacked from the rear or flank was usually tactically disastrous, I believe you are wrong in assuming it would mean instant death. There is nothing stopping individuals from turning around and fighting, after all, even if their effectiveness would be diminished.

Even an un-armed man can postpone his fate simply by ducking and dodging.

The Romans were flanked and squeezed at some or another battle vs. Frittigern (a big one, look it up)-- and it still took them hours to be overcome.

DA
Perhaps not instant death, but most men in the rear would pay the price at the initial charge even if some already see the danger coming.The men in the front will get losses also cause one way or another they know they are beiing charged in the back and they will make mistakes cause of that.Cavalry in the rear makes things even worse.
I dont know the battle u name but i can imagine that its not easy to completely brake down the large armies of the romans, even when flanking them it would take some time to deplete there numbers.Correct me if i am wrong.

[Del Arroyo]

Larger numbers but same % in the front. Speed rules transfer between large and small battles.

[Cheetah]

No one ever questioned that being flanked is a mistake and thus should be punished. The real question is that how and with what speed should this be implemented to keep the game playable. Another question is whether players should be given time to react or not.

The main problem most of the vets have with this is that with the current running and killing speed there is no time whatsoever to react to those situations. In fact there is little time to react to anything. That is, players have less controll over the fate of the battle once it started, which is a major setback for those who enjoyed the tactical battles of the previous TW releases.

[Colovion]

In the Demo, I could not achieve this to a satisfactory degree as the front line units would not *Stand and Hold* for any appreciable length of time. Frankly, the toughest Roman/Carthage units would act like the PEASANT units of Shogun/Medeival fame, which weren't worth a DAMN!
.

Did you try putting them on "Gaurd" as I have found that that order has significant defensive properties to it (obviously) and is a good way of stoping a charge. After you've been fighting teh enemy for a while make your units attack the enemy instead of just gaurding and take them off Gaurd Mode. I find that it works pretty well to whittle down a charging unit (as long as you can hold their initial charge) and then gives you the advantage of pressing teh attack once they're tired.

[ToranagaSama]

Colovion,

Thanks for the suggestion. I do need to explore and experiment more, but the Demo was so dis-incenting with the Interface presenting an obstacle. Hopefully, the full game will inspire one to fight thru the interface. *Sigh*

[Quietus]

Speed is ridiculous :no: . The cavalry can actually penetrate units with very little harm ( like they aren't in a tight formation).

Units have a great chance of outrunning a horse because cavs take too much time to obey orders. (Make that all units take too much time).

The only time I can use my Hastati pilum is when I have superior numbers. Even then, the Warband just charges at you :dizzy2: During the siege though you can actually shoot them up a bit but they still charge when you get too close.

The game is now officially 50/50 Strategic Map/Battle Map emphasized. You spend as much time on the strategic map as you do the battle phase.

They should shave the charging speed and tone a bit of the killing power too. :yes:

[hoom]

Hmm, I dunno, I've been playing the prologue all afternoon & the battles have been pretty long in general.

Well, a sucessful cavalry charge is definitely pretty quick, much like CK vs Peasants in Medieval.
A big part of it is the charge & then broken formation afterwards.
A viking beserker could penetrate right into the middle of a unit of spears & wreak havoc & thats pretty much what cavalry does in Rome.
But an unsuccessful charge can get stopped.

Principes & Hastati vs Militia Hoplites & Hoplites is quite long unless there is a successful flanking.

[Thoros of Myr]

I've had some really long battles and some where tactics clearly were a factor.

Things just need to be "balanced" a little bit. I don't see why a mod couldent make the battles very close to MTW/STW or whatever people prefer, assuming all that needs to be edited is able to be.

[Tamur]

All I've got to say is, the flaming pigs are seriously underpowered. ~:joker:

[Bob the Insane]

A simple question for RTW...

I have just run a few quick tests in MTW with a french peasant unit against an english peasant unit both 0 valour with no armour or weapon bonuses... clean attack, both units in the same formation, charged into each other on level ground head on...

The fight lasted anywhere from 45 seconds for the shortest to 2 min for the longest (average of about 1 min 30 secs) before one side or the other broke and ran (I discounted any where the unit leader/general died early)... Also each side would have about 40% casualties every 30 seconds (i.e. 100 men at start, 60 at 30 secs, 40 at 1 min, 25 at 1 min 30 secs, etc)...

These are rough averages done with a very limited set of tests, but I am only looking for a rough comparison...

Can the same be done on RTW???

Additional: This was on Normal difficulty so no bonuses for anyone...

[hoom]

Ok, I just did a bunch of little custom battles (not exactly scientific or anything) & killing rates head to head between unupgraded, similar unit types is not exactly what I'd call fast.
Boringly slow even?
Even 2 units of elephants took quite some time to resolve.
tried peasants, armoured elephants, vanilla legionarys, militia hoplites, levy phalanx.
Battles were very close & lasted definitely in the minutes.
Off to try some flanking now :knight:

[Colovion]

Yeah I tested the peasant battles - they last about the same amount of time - usually 1.30 or so

[hoom]

Played a battle of just loads (~15 huge size) of phalanx vs other loads of phalanx & it was pretty much tediously slow.

[Colovion]

The battle speed isn't that bad when you have your lines setup properly but if there is even the SMALLEST break it is exploited immediately and your whole line buckles. To my utter humiliation I've now used the Pause button twice in one battle to redeploy troops which had begun chasing routing units half across the map - which just barely got back to the main fight to turn the tide in my favour. I think that there should be a "don't chase routers" kind of button. I guess the Gaurd mode would do that in a sense but if you ever clicked to attack a unit it would null that and the unit would begin to just attack the unit until it was gone.

Overall the battles are awesome with small amounts of troops but once you get over 800 or so on either side it gets rather sketch trying to keep control of your units - but it isn't as bad as I thought it would be as you fight a lot of small scale battles.

I've yet to autocalc any land battles or seiges, which I think is a testament to the battle engine and the work which was put into it; in MTW I would autocalc almost every seige or would starve them out and small bands of brigands I would always autocalc.

[Osbot]

I picked it up this afternoon.

It is fast, to me it is too fast, but let me explain first. In STW and MTW the speed was probably too slow. I found myself with too much time to just sit and watch the battles. In RTW, while I can give my orders, I have ZERO time to watch the battles. Im sorta looking for a happy medium here.

The way it breaks down, everything is more frantic but I wouldnt say its total chaos. The way you organize your forces in general will decide the outcome rather than any tricky manuevers. However playing with the max unit size, in general I have plenty of time to whip around the flanks with equites or barb merc cav to drive a charge home.

Regarding cavalry, they are NOT as effective as I found them to be in the demo, modded or otherwise. For example if you charge into the rear of an enemy, while you cause huge casualties, if you attempt to break off you will take massive casualties yourself. Leaving equites in prolonged melee gets them slaughtered. Things may change as I progress further east (im brutii) and run into some of the more cavalry oriented factions. I myself really don't have any HEAVY cavalry formations useful for shock tactics as general units are far far too valuable to commit into a general melee unless it is extremely desperate.

[Red Harvest]

It is way too fast. Even legionaries will run in a few seconds if outgunned. Cavalry is the biggest problem. They move too rapidly to issue orders. Heavy cav will often run *through* and around your legionairy's in a head on charge without taking losses???

Kill rates are too fast. Even if you flank some one (in real life) it will take a while to finish them. The routs are nearly instantaneous when flanked.

I've played about 50 battles so far in a campaign (more, but I can't remember the count), and not a single one has resulted in a prolonged clash of lines. Melee combat is all on turbo. In real life the hand-to-hand could go on for hours. That is why they had armour and shields and used formations. Kill speed in battles represents naked men with semi-automatic weapons at 20 paces.

Don't even get me started on the elephants... :surrender:

Hope they come up with a half speed setting.

[Bob the Insane]

Thanks to those who tested RTW...

MTW basically had a animation cycle rate of 1 second, mean that every second a random number was generated (between 0 and 100) for each soldier and if that was lower than the kill chance number for that soldier (worked out from the attackers attack rating minus the defenders defence rating) then that soldier would kill his opponent... After the maths these results where diplayed in the next animation cycle...

Or at lest this is the impression given by the MTW Strat guide.. :book:

I think (as someone how has not got the game yet.. :surrender: ) that they use the same system in RTW but have changed the modifiers quite alot. Checking the strat guid the worst case for a unit, say Feudal Sergeants charged in the flank by early royal knights (in wedge formation), the knights should get the max kill chance of 76% for the first impact...

Guess we will have to wait for the strat guide and hopefully it will have this kind of stuff in it....

[Thoros of Myr]

Even though I never use pause and I've only lost 4 battles out of 39 in my Julii campaign I still would love it if the battle speed was slowed by 15-20% and running/routing infantry brought more to scale. Right now they are just slightly slower then sprinting horses..? :(

[Del Arroyo]

A single cycle could not possibly have been as long as one whole second, could it? I mean like oooooooone-miss-iss-ipp-i. In STW at least I seem to recall different guys dying off at different times within the space of a second. If it were as long as a second, death noises would take on a distinctly slave-galley feel (if you can imagine what I mean-- one, two three, STROKE! one, two, three, STROKE!).

..

In a tangentially related point, I have heard anecdotally that the little buggers have hitpoints now. Interesting? Heck yes.

..

But to reveal my own position, I was always an advocate for slower battles way back with STW: MI, and distributed a Mod with this as a feature. I decreased killing speed and decreased morale, and IIRC it would take two Yari Ashigaru (peasant) units about 5-7 minutes, and they'd run off with 40-60% still alive.

I liked the feel of it. But of course even that was alot faster than actual combat.

Thinking about it now, I am not so sure that my previous positions were correct. It seems that speed would have to be somewhat accelerated, and thus Player Control inhibited, to realistically represent Command and Control (in the absence of any other constraints). So for me, the Jury is out on RTW.

Though from what I hear, I am leaning toward the opinion of it being too fast. It seems that the decision was made to balance Strat-map time vs. Battle time, and to make battles fit into the attention spans of a wider cross-section of the populace. Things in STW/MTW were probably already fast enough to simulate problems with C&C (just listen to all the people who were compulsive pausers in THOSE games). :dizzy2:

..

But anyway, with me running off to Mexico in less than a month this is not a very good time for me to be buying and immersing in the game. I am very interested in hearing what other people think about it and seeing what other people do with it, though. ~:cheers:

DA

[Thon]

the more i play it, the more i like the new speed. though i agree with whoever said a 15%-20% slowing down would be good.

the one thing that does bewilder me about battles is just how decisive they are. 1000+ of my men took on 1000+ gauls, and only 1 gaul escaped with his life. i would have considered 300 kills a major victory in medieval with the same units. with captures they would have lost more, but i know several hundred would have escaped to pester me for another few turns.

[SpencerH]

Based on some discussions here, I think the cav combat is fine. They have a heavy shock value but dont have as good melee capabilities that cav with stirrups do.

Relative speeds are a whole other matter. Whoever set the inf speeds has never 'humped his ass through the grass'.

[Oleander Ardens]

A question to the RTW-gamers from a Demo-player:

Is it as easy as in the Demo to abuse small cavalry troops against masses of infantry + few cavalry units?

Against two units of Numidians and two units of Longshield cavalry guys + general even 3 hastati, 3 principes, 2 mercenary warband and 3 triarii stand little chance on the Tutorial map if you micro your guys well against the AI, as the Skirmishers will shatter the enemy and your are often able to locally outnumber isolated units. If you draw a Triarii with a LSC and charge them with the other LSC in the rear, followed closly by the turning first LSC a instant rout would follow...

I got 450+ kills (maxed unitsize with Rodeo) this way with both LSC, while the Numidians did only skirmish, killing far fewer... just wonder what happens when I get my hands on the Parthians and Scyhtians

Cheers
OA

[desdichado]

Its quite odd - I'm pausing a lot less than I used to in MTW but I think battles are too fast.

I was facing only a lone cav unit and had some skirmishers in front but close to my main lines - i looked away for a couple of seconds and looked back and the cav was into my skirmishers causing all kinds of havoc. I could not have even ordered one unit to move in the time it took the cav to cover the distance - they were out of javelin range prior to charge. Also legionaries have never got off 2 pila (sometimes lucky to get 1) when enemy charging.

However just marching your troops around seems quite slow in comparison but that is to be expected.

Also imo killing speed is too fast - I have to pause to be able to look at the action otherwise its over before I can zoom in at times. (seeing a peasant stab one of my hastati in the back with his trident thingy was pretty funny!) I would expect the fighting to go on much longer with men in close packed formations.

[Thoros of Myr]

Appolonius's movement speed mod helped a good deal and now an HP x2 mod is sounding real good.

[SpencerH]

The problem with the speed mod is that all movement is slowed equally when it is really just the inf running speed that is the major problem (maybe cav too, but I have no experience with how fast a small horse could run cross country while bearing a man).

[Turbo]

I do not mind that the light infantry with no armour or what so ever (like many in the barbarian factions) run that much faster as a legionaire in plate armour but for them to run equally fast is redicolous.Can someone test and compare the unit speeds for heavy and light infantry please?

The average legionaire was weighted down with 75-80 lbs which included his gear and each legionaire carried stakes for fortifying the camp. During column march, they couldn't be fleet of foot. However, prior to battle they would set up a fortified camp which would become a logistics base for the legionaires. Excess equipment and food would be left there. When the battle was joined, the legionaire would be well fed and rested. In terms of energy level, yes, they could match the barbarians.

[econ21]

The problem with the speed mod is that all movement is slowed equally when it is really just the inf running speed that is the major problem (maybe cav too, but I have no experience with how fast a small horse could run cross country while bearing a man).

There was a fascinating TV program on the longbow, when they got a horseman to gallop across a field of battle (Crecy?) while an archer fired off as many shots as possible. I forget the exact numbers, but if I recall, the horseman closed the distance in under a minute and the archer got off maybe half a dozen shots. The conclusion the program drew was that the longbow could be lethal en masse at short range, but it did bring home to me how quickly cavalry could potentially close with the enemy.

I suspect the biggest factor governing battlefield mobility historically is command and control. Maybe we have got too used to unrealistically micromanaging the battle? What some folk have said about deployment being more important than manouvre in RTW maybe less satisfying to the gamer but more historical.

[DisruptorX]

There was a fascinating TV program on the longbow, when they got a horseman to gallop across a field of battle (Crecy?) while an archer fired off as many shots as possible. I forget the exact numbers, but if I recall, the horseman closed the distance in under a minute and the archer got off maybe half a dozen shots. The conclusion the program drew was that the longbow could be lethal en masse at short range, but it did bring home to me how quickly cavalry could potentially close with the enemy.

I suspect the biggest factor governing battlefield mobility historically is command and control. Maybe we have got too used to unrealistically micromanaging the battle? What some folk have said about deployment being more important than manouvre in RTW maybe less satisfying to the gamer but more historical.

However, archers certainly do not get to shoot that many times in TW, so it certainly isn't "realistic". Besides, I thought that CA said that gameplay came before historical accuracy.

Don't forget that in real battle, units could think for themselves, they didn't have to have one guy frantically running between units giving them orders.

[Red Harvest]

SpencerH,

Cavalry *is* also at the heart of the problem. I'm playing Carthage and I've learned to dispense with infantry for the most part. I don't even need them to pin units (just for siege work). I use the cavalry rush like the AI. This even worked against a huge hoplite army. The kill rate is so high that I can lure one hoplite with cav in the front and kill it from the rear before any help is even near. Repeat 19 times and the battle is over for a "heroic victory" on "very hard."

My toughest foe? The Numidians with their mounted javelins. Why? They are superfast. I have a hard time taking them out even with cavalry armies. This clearly shows where the battle engine is broken. (Slingers are handy for engaging them.)

Part of the issue with cav and infantry is that the AI changes direction very rapidly, while my orders seem to take awhile to register (that and the AI can issue orders to everyone, every second.) I call this the "fish schooling effect." In real life, there is no way a unit can change facing/direction so quickly. Couple this with the "turbo rout when flanked" effect and things happen very rapidly. What is really wierd is that sometimes units change direction slowly, other times they fly.

[Kraxis]

Maybe we have got too used to unrealistically micromanaging the battle? What some folk have said about deployment being more important than manouvre in RTW maybe less satisfying to the gamer but more historical.

Indeed we have... Any commander from that age would love to be able to control his men like we could. But to have a 'fire-and-forget' system is not fun. Even if that was what was intended to be like that then why not limit our capabilities in giving commands rather than speed the system up to an unmanageable level? I mean at least then we would be able to view the spectacular fights and see the ebb and flow of the fight (like we could in the other two titles).

[SpencerH]

SpencerH,

Cavalry *is* also at the heart of the problem. I'm playing Carthage and I've learned to dispense with infantry for the most part. I don't even need them to pin units (just for siege work). I use the cavalry rush like the AI. This even worked against a huge hoplite army. The kill rate is so high that I can lure one hoplite with cav in the front and kill it from the rear before any help is even near. Repeat 19 times and the battle is over for a "heroic victory" on "very hard."

My toughest foe? The Numidians with their mounted javelins. Why? They are superfast. I have a hard time taking them out even with cavalry armies. This clearly shows where the battle engine is broken. (Slingers are handy for engaging them.)

Part of the issue with cav and infantry is that the AI changes direction very rapidly, while my orders seem to take awhile to register (that and the AI can issue orders to everyone, every second.) I call this the "fish schooling effect." In real life, there is no way a unit can change facing/direction so quickly. Couple this with the "turbo rout when flanked" effect and things happen very rapidly. What is really wierd is that sometimes units change direction slowly, other times they fly.

I've seen the 'fish schooling' cav too and yes its damn irritating. I had 2 unkillable gaul heavy cav circle around and around like cockroaches until I got pissed-off and quit the battle.

Its not really a question of cav speed though (from my calcs in another thread the RTW cav run speeds seems reasonable) or even the killing effect of charges, but as you say, the speed with which the cav can change direction and or receive orders that causes the problem.