View Full Version : Did MI kill Shogun Totalwar?
With MTW already out in the states and soon to hit Uk shelves i ask myself the above question.
To me now i dont think that for the sake of a few new units that MI was worth the trouble. It brought with it the hype that attracted welcome new players but with the same hand seemed to take away more of the old. B4 its release the number of players in the foyer regularly touched 100, after it never seemed to get close.
Maybe the release was badly timed or maybe it just didnt live upto expectations. Hindsight tho is a wonderful thing and at the time like many others i eagerly waited for MI feeling that shogun needed something new.
The fun went with the ending of the online campaign which i only managed to fight in twice due to personal commitments, after that there seemed no point. However im not passing comment on the past three months or so because i had isolated myself in the shogun wilderness, i dont know what has passed or who rules the roost anymore. Plenty of new faces round here and some recognisable old ones still knocking around.
So I eagerly await mtw as im sure all outside the states are, the reviews are good as are the posts ive read from those who are fortunate to have it already(lucky bar stewards). Heres hoping it has a long future online.
*apologies if ive repeated an old argument*
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To not even bother trying is the best safeguard against failure
TenkiSoratoti
08-29-2002, 02:51
hmmmm, you are correct but. The mongols were hardly ever played with on the lobby, cause it was too unfair to be japanese.
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"The good fighters of the old first put themselves beyond the possibility of defeat, and then waited for an oppurtunity to defeat the enemy."
WE/MI had pronounced balance problems in the online game and a fatigue bug. My understanding is that longjohn2, the programmer of the battle ai, was not with the CA team when WE/MI was released. A group of players tried to fix up the balance with the v102 beta patch, but it was a difficult task. Many online players had already left by the time v102 was released in late Nov 2001. Participation picked up after that, but it became apparent that v102 still was not quite right and people left again. In June an unoffical v103 rebalance was released that addresses the deficiencies of v102, but it was very late in coming and only attracted a few players. Those that did use it will benefit because MTW is much closer to v103 than v102.
We learned a lot during the v102 beta and sent well documented suggestions to CA for the next game in the series. In the meantime, longjohn2 returned to CA and we had discussions with him here at the Sword Dojo about the battle system. After playing MTW online, I think the feel of original STW is back with the addition of some of the innovations developed in WE/MI v102 and some of the suggestions.
No one was more skeptical about the hype surrounding MTW than I was, but I think CA has come through with a real winner in both online and single play, and they kept the price point the same as the original STW which is a very good marketing move in my opinion. I think STW and WE/MI will be left behind now with the substantially higher system requirements of MTW as the only real downside other than the fact that some may prefer the historical setting of STW over MTW.
it is great to see u again jaeg m8! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
i have to agree with u . . MI did kill shogun and what it was! lets just hop medieval will sort it http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
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"...but one of them would make war rather than let the nation survive,
and the other would accept war rather than let it perish,
and the war came."
Abraham Lincoln, 2nd Inaugural Address
4 March 1865
[This message has been edited by JAG (edited 08-30-2002).]
Krasturak
08-30-2002, 08:02
Gah!
It has long been Krast's opinion that the WE/MI release was deeply flawed and damaging to our hobby.
For online players, the immediate division into two chat rooms playing separate games reduced much of the fun of meeting and playing with all our friends -- we had to choose which friends to spend time with.
This meant that many of us lost the routine contact that formed the basis of our community, and we lost a great number of fine players.
It is Krast's opinion that this effect was predictable, and that CA released the WE in order to make additional profit from the TotalWar product series without any regard for the effect on long time players.
This accords with the ethical norms of commerce, and CA cannot be faulted for taking this action.
From Krast's point of view, it is a good example of how capitalism and community interests are often at odds.
Krast would have prefered a world that never included WE/MI. But it came, and there it is.
krast is right here!
they just released mi to earn some extra money...for near nothing!
so, who played Mongol eara?
Who played the diff gamestyles?
upgrades?....who realy used it?...and was upgrades a good invention?
....maybe just more probs....
anyway, at the end we played in MI like in STW, just a few more units...wich rarly was used.
just the Nag-cav was used...thats all...
imo MI was the big-hit-killer for STW all together!
koc
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Grey Wolves (http://www.totalwar.club.tip.nl/)
here here
Boromir...
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Sven Goran-Eriksson is a very very very nice man
Ithaskar Fëarindel
08-30-2002, 22:16
Those with any sense didn't buy MI http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
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Fëa-Quendi
Why I thought MI was good.
It did.
Krast and Yuuki said what there was to say.
But I'll add. Many went crazy about that stupid number next to their names...and the invention of '10k ironing board'. In old Shogun I used to play comps, it was a challenge and fun to enter the Top 100. In MI it wasn't but a joke. Many 'gun monkeys' created several names...a day on MI playing 10k iron bored...and they get 140...then they make another name...and so on. Boring. I was shattered when even great competitive players like Magyar or Koc stopped playing comps...it just showed the pitiful state of MI. Those handful of bastids who cheated for the number also weren't much of an incentive.
Unfortunately friendlies got infected too.
Thanks to 1.03 that made my last months on MI worthy. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
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Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.totalwar.org/kenchikuka)
evil is within us... http://www.totalwar.org/site/emomalta.gif
[This message has been edited by Terazawa Tokugawa (edited 08-30-2002).]
Elrich of Gaul
08-31-2002, 10:30
Krast.... Is that pink hair I see coming out of your helmet.??
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"I will follow you anywhere my brother, my captain, my King"
Elrich
Jemasze Toda
08-31-2002, 12:24
Funny to see (for poor little fool...) how many people put the blame for the more and more decreasing interest in Shogun on the release of MI and strange things like "gun-monkeys", the "10K Ironing-hype", the loss of the initial spirit due to the rising of pitiful "new" wannabe-players and last but not least the soo annoying Honour-ladder which of course was also much more "real" when the great "true" warriors of yore dominated it in the glorious past.
It was soooo much better in old Shogun, we had no problems there....
Strange though that i at least remember the never stopping moaning about anything during the good old days, the constant critic about the powerful guns, the monk-rush, campers, the many, many bugs, the honour-system etc. etc.
Ahh and let us not forget the Honour-ladder during the good old times, who will never come back: 16 (or so hehe)MagyarKhans there, a couple of other great players with several names, masses of undercover-vets and some poor ladder-campers and "cheaters" as well.
Sorry but i can't see the difference...
Concerning the "10K ironing" and the "gun-monkeys", i am sorry but i found no fault in that at all, in fact i kinda liked Ironing.
(and yep, i played also other maps and not too bad, i think) In MI, mainly because of its strong Cavalry you could find many ways around the boring frontal-clash, ask Youssof or JerichoPrime on that http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif It was fun (and if server is up it still is occasionally) to use many different tactics especially on Ironing. Boring? Host other games then...
Nobody will join? What about all the many vets and old buddies? They are not there anymore? Because of bad MI and all the other soooo annoying things which let them dissappear?
As i see it, the decrease of interest is much more a typical sign of the times: In the computer-era ( total amusement-overload)people are mostly not able to focus for too long on one game or one thing at all... they get simply bored and search for easy excuses if they move on.
Its soo much easier to put the blame on the bad new times or anything of that kind....hehe
It seems to me that alyways in the human mind the perspective changes if present ongoings become history...the lost paradise.
To come to a conclusion: I liked MI, although i agree that some parts of it ( Mongol-era, new options for battle-type...) were mostly useless. That we finally saw and still see the melting of the old community to a very small and tiny rest, is NOT because of all the things mentioned so often.
People get bored and move on, thats all.
Currently i am looking forward to Medieval, but i foretell, that we soon will be able to witness the same old stuff again and when in 2 years "Roman-Totalwar" arrives, MTW will be history and almost deserted... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
A sign of the times...
cheers
TheFool formerly known as Jemasze
Never underestimate the Fools ability to laugh at himself or at others...
Watch out for TheFool!!
Jemasze Toda
08-31-2002, 12:26
Hmm i forgot to mention, that 1.01 was really shit, no point in denying that. 1.02 was nice and i heard that the "inofficial" 1.03 was even better...
I've played comp games on both STW and MI. In both I managed to reach the Top 100. But both were very different.
In STW nearly everyone had different armies, guns weren't too strong as in MI, units were balanced using the 4 max rule (monk-rush) and few boasted about their number unless they really worked hard for it. (remember Dareal's quest for #1? THAT'S the true meaning of what means being #1)
The feeling of 'honourable, fair and competitive' feeling of the honour 'number' dissapeared...in MI honour is a 'number', in STW it used to be a REAL symbol of 'skill', for most of us at least!.
Take one of those gun monkeys (1 out of 3 MI players)...they have 3/4/5 names at 150...but are they really as strong as the Chosen Ones because their opposition is like them (gun monkeys!) and they are the symbols of the iron bored boredom?
C'mon. It ISN'T the same thing, definetely.
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Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.totalwar.org/kenchikuka)
evil is within us... http://www.totalwar.org/site/emomalta.gif
Krasturak
08-31-2002, 19:53
Quote Originally posted by Elrich of Gaul:
Krast.... Is that pink hair I see coming out of your helmet.??[/QUOTE]
No. It is red. Look at pics on Aggony site.
Jemasze Toda
08-31-2002, 23:52
Really, Tera?
It was absolutly different in the good old days?
Nearly everyone had different armies? Had they? I remember mostly monk/gun-heavy armies with only a few exceptions.
Units were balanced? What about the monks?
The 4 max rule wasn't used very often or at all during STW-prime time. Guns were powerful too, have you forgot the 6 to 8 guns army with 8 monks backing them?
Cav was by far not as strong as in MI and only a very few were able to handle them...
You can count them with both hands only, IF that is not already exxaggerated.
Soo many people were working hard for their ladder-position? Maybe, but most of them INCLUDING the great ones defended most of the times, either on Totomi or even the 4th when playing competitive.
That changed a bit only in the final days of old Shoggy...
And Tera, you may have played another game than me, but i can still hear all the complaints about the crappy Honour-ladder and the omni-present abuse of it.
And again concerning the Ironing, who cared about the limited ability of some wannabe players? Guns were very strong in MI, true!
but i used almost always Honour 0 guns if i used them at all and i won a lot more than i lost...hehe. I saw some extremely good players on Ironing too: AMP, JerichoPrime, Koc and i had lots of fun playing Lordted once or twice a day..his quest to become and stay Number One was also honourable i would say...
....and who do you mean by "the chosen ones"?
Some elitarist club who love to get most of the communities attention? Fools like me? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
With all respect, Tera, but from my point of view you palliate the past -the good old days - way too much!
Of course Shoggy was great, but it was not because of the flaws of MI that problems arised..they were there because human-beings gathered together in order to play a fantastic online-game. Were humans come together, problems come too! People get bored and leave or don't have the time anymore or are pissed off by other players or anything else.
So is life....
yours Jemasze alias TheFool
I understand your point of view...and I partially agree with it - the game and the honour system didn't change - but the players did, VERY much. I don't like that 3/4 of the players in the foyer have tens of names and always playing 10k ironing bored...and always the same army...4 guns 4 nodachis, 4 cavs and some archers. I played a lot of those games because I had no other way...if I hosted even only a different amount of koku...gun monkeys wouldn't play! If it was 'all of the same', I don't think most of the greatest players would have stopped 'hunting' for honour, but they did. I am not a greatest player (The Chosen Ones are those http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif) but I realised the difference too. And no, I never got 'bored' of Total War.
It's just not the feeling I had when playing STW. For you it may have been the same, but definetely not for me chap. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Tera
P.S.
You're the best fool of the NET, though. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif *wink*
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Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.totalwar.org/kenchikuka)
evil is within us... http://www.totalwar.org/site/emomalta.gif
Jemasze Toda
09-01-2002, 02:52
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
Well answered, Tera!
But still....nah Fool must go to work now...
cheers
TheFool alias Jemasze alias Asmodi alias GODZILLA alias TarsTarkas alias Thengil alias Tarzan alias Manstein alias Heydrich alias ZatArras alias Rainald de Chattilon alias ...damn i forgot the rest! and DAMN! i had more than ten names!! I am a gun-monkey!!! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
well, guys u all have good points, i think its all together.... i personal got bored of the game.... the stuppid guys wasnt a help...
i come online and i had to wait tooo long to play vs players i want to play...
and if i played i won to often!
(i wont be arrogant) but u lose interest if u win all the time, so the only fun there was...was with mag to play some teambattles, coz we tryed new things.... we attacked every map with every rule...we just played friendly....but i dunno how often we lost but maybe 1 or 2 of 100 games... this is silly! this isnt fun... with some better enemys im sure we had played often...
many good players left and thats the reason why more players left....
remember, we had fun about 2 years...
and stw ...mi...hmmmm i think in stw we had same probs like in mi, jemas is right here.... if i look back at my school time...phew,....good old times...but at this time i was in school...hmm i didnt thought so http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
the mi system was to complex...so it wasnt possible to balanced in a right way.
i liked the Mongols too and MI wasnt that bad alltogether....look to MTW and let us hope we see this nice community again!
koc
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Grey Wolves (http://www.totalwar.club.tip.nl/)
candidgamera
09-01-2002, 21:07
Played a little online STW for a while, but haven't spent much time on the game for a while - moved on to Civ3. Sorry to hear of the way things have gone.
After some of the comments I read about WE/MI, didn't load it right away, and then kept old STW when I did.
Would like to know where one could get US version-compatible download of 1.03 for MI/WE. Is this pretty well bug free?
Probably never happen, but wouldn't it be great if CA went back and put all the new campaign stuff from MTW into a STW II?
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Soldier of Fortune
O Fortune, most contrary, Of changing never chary, Now small, now great, Appears your state; Just like the moon you vary.
The life your servants suffer Makes wits grow sharper, tougher, Through games of chance Which much enhance Both easy times and rougher.
Lo, penury or power May greet us any hour: Your wheel revolves And all dissolves Like ice beneath a shower.
O Lady Luck, alluring But faithless in securing The wealth we prize, From me likewise You hide, your face obscuring.
I've bet my shirt and lost, My hopes of bliss are crossed; And, lose or gain, I still remain Hard up - but hang the cost!
My pounding pulses crave One smile for me, your slave . . . Friends, keep with me And weep with me: She favors not the brave.
(From Carmina Burana: Tavern and Open Road)
Yoko Kono
09-14-2002, 05:55
i left STW in around october 2001
MI killed it
the old lobby had 70+ peeps in it all the time
sometimes nearly 100 but after the release of WE/MI the community was effectively split in two
joining a lobby with only 10 or 20 peeps in it none of whom wished to play anything other than defence on rediculously hilly maps wasnt my idea of fun
For me MI was worth it just for the music.
I just love those Mongol wardrums.
Add the that the new campaign options for the Japanese and it gave STW a new lease of life.
I now have MTW, STW and MI and cant wait for the next edition.
Fingers crossed for Napoleonic Total War.
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Didz
Fortis balore et armis
The original STW was so good that it was a difficult act to follow. Actually, I don't think they have done as well since. I bought the Warlord Edition and I uninstalled it. As a game, the original Shogun, with the Horde and the Legendary Geishas and all of it, is a classic. You have to work to win the campaign.
ShadesWolf
09-25-2002, 12:13
I must admit I enjoyed MI
and especially online, but not many people would play you. This was the thing I could never understand.
I always wanted to play as the Mongols, and have good large cav battles,but people just wouldnt play. Some of my most interesting and fun games were Mongols v Mongols
Great Fun.
On the single player side, it did suck a little, but seeing I play online more than campaign, this point didnt matter to me.
Ithaskar Fëarindel
09-26-2002, 04:26
I agree with Dancho.
I gave each a % mark, I keep changing MTW as I find more things about it.
STW 92%
MI 86%
MTW 83%
IMO MTW doesn't pull so many strings. I guess it just aint my taste AS MUCH. That's not saying I don't like it at all - I just loved STW.
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Fëa-Quendi
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