Freakin' Macedonians! (Brutii)

[Amon_Zeth]

I keep getting utterly crushed by the Macedonians as the Brutii. I have absolutely no counter (Triarii) to cavalry, and they build hordes of them and don't want to leave me alone. Is there any way I can beat them, or should I switch to another Roman faction?

[Armchair Athlete]

yeah cavalry is WAAAYYY overpowered ~:mecry: Egyptians are very strong too for this reason, good cavalry. I find I can sometimes kill them by leaving a couple of units of velites out front for bait (take off skirmish mode), the cavalry always seems to go for archers/skirmishers first and then charge the cavalry with hastati/princeps. Some Cretan archers are also good to shoot them down, but don't get too many cause they wil be hard to defend. If you're really desperate, you can always autocalc, but I find autocalc gives you much worse results than in MTW.

EDIT - As soon as I find out properly how to modify unit files, I will greatly reducing power of cavalry. At the moment, there is basically no reason to build anything other than cavalry, even phalanxes are pretty useless. I can easily defeat even Spartan Hoplites with Macedonian Light Lancers!

[Morindin]

The best way to beat light cavalry is WAR DOGS!

They are not so good against heavy cavalry (and heavy foot units), however they are expendable as the dogs themselves replenish.

[Orvis Tertia]

I haven't played against the Macedonians yet, but I suggest this tactic: Put your Hastati in formations that are relatively deep so that they can absorb an initial charge, and keep them close together. (I assume you don't have spear troops yet.) Put Velites close behind them, and then another unit or two of Hastati behind the Velites to protect your flanks. Pin the charging cavalry with your Hastati while your javelineers pour missiles into the horses. I've found that javelins are excellent against cavalry if you can keep the cavalry still enough to use up your ammo. Also, make sure you are using your general to charge, withdraw, repeat against the enemy flanks as soon as the enemy are tied up with your infantry. Especially if the enemy are using light cavalry, your general's heavy cavalry will chew them up. Also, make sure that you let your Hastati fire at will if you are on the defensive.

[GodsPetMonkey]

I keep getting utterly crushed by the Macedonians as the Brutii. I have absolutely no counter (Triarii) to cavalry, and they build hordes of them and don't want to leave me alone. Is there any way I can beat them, or should I switch to another Roman faction?

I love Brutii, and that makes me hate Macedon :furious3:

Luckily, I have developed my own method of countering the Light Lancer (and Macedonian Cav.) threat! Its all about good formations.

Essentially, I set up my battle 'block' like this (Slightly major simplification).


HHHHHHHHHHHHHH

VVVVVVVVVVVVVV
HHHHHHHHHHHHHH

AAAAAAAAAAAAAA
GGGGGGGGGGGGGG

H = Hastati (Or any medium/heavy infantry)
V = Veleties (Or any javelin type, even Hastati with their pila if your desperate)
A = Archers
G = General
If I have any cav, I normally put them on the rear flanks, beside my general.

Basically, the enemy will try one of 2 things, charge you head on (this is VERY unlikely if you bring a decent spear unit, like a merc. Hoplite) or advance towards you, then swing around onto your flanks, which is far nastier, but alot easier to spot.

If they hit you head on, the front row of Hastati are just there to absorb the shock, chances are, after the main charge, they will be down to half strength, but if the cav stop to fight them, its a job well done. Charge the Hastati in the middle up, and watch the slaughter. If you can prevent them from moving (and re-charging), they are totally useless.

If they go for your flanks, you have to try to be as mobile as them. Try swinging the front line Hastati around (if they aren't engaged) to present an attractive 'easy target' to the AI, if they take the bait, quickly rush in the middle line Hastati, it'll be over quickly. If they don't, or take a very wide flanking movement, try to rush your middle line hastati to form a wall around the side, if you have any cav, good time to counter charge to buy some time, if not, try to absorb it, and move what ever you can in to help them, including your general, who I find VERY effective vs stationary cav.

Finally, dont underestimate the power of your javelins. Set your front line hastati to fire at will, and you may get in an important volley before contact, and keep your skirmishers firing, you will take some friendly casualties, but javelins eat light cav for breakfast, and should be sitting ducks. What's more, if they bring in some hoplites, I find javelins to be very effective against them too.

Hope that helps.

[csebal]

I haven't played against the Macedonians yet, but I suggest this tactic: Put your Hastati in formations that are relatively deep so that they can absorb an initial charge, and keep them close together. (I assume you don't have spear troops yet.) Put Velites close behind them, and then another unit or two of Hastati behind the Velites to protect your flanks. Pin the charging cavalry with your Hastati while your javelineers pour missiles into the horses. I've found that javelins are excellent against cavalry if you can keep the cavalry still enough to use up your ammo. Also, make sure you are using your general to charge, withdraw, repeat against the enemy flanks as soon as the enemy are tied up with your infantry. Especially if the enemy are using light cavalry, your general's heavy cavalry will chew them up. Also, make sure that you let your Hastati fire at will if you are on the defensive.

Ouch.. with the way missile troops work, you'll end up slaughtering your own hestati with those velites. Sure it may work, but it costs far too many lives.
:D

I really loved when my archers tried to fire at an emeny unit climbing the hill towards me... sadly i had fire at will turned on, and a general unit was standing right before my archers... one volley,and half that unit was gone...

Since then i never keep anything in front of my archers/velites... the infantry just stands behind them, and with one quick move, they change positions as the enemy approaches.

Anyway, my only defense against cavalry is to let them charge into my troops, and time my own cavalry charge so, that it hits the enemy the same time they hit my infantry... this way, the damage cavalry did to me was minimal, and the enemy cav has nowhere to run...

If you do not have cavalry yourself, then your best bet is to avoid engagement, or pray for the good will of Tymora, Juno, Mars, or any other god you like.

[Orvis Tertia]

While friendly fire does occur in the setup I described, it tends to not be as damaging as you might think. And it's offset by the speed with which you can take down the enemy. In other words, your own troops will pick off a few of their friends by accident, but the enemy will kill fewer of your troops. It's been very effective for me against the Gauls. I wiped them off the map without a single lost battle.

[Doug-Thompson]

Although this is a tactical thread, I've found the strategy of blitzing the Macedonians hard in the opening moves AND building a fort to close one of those gaps north of Apollonia (sp?) works very, very well.

I claim the first strategy with a cutesy name: The "Brutii Blitz." :2thumbsup:

I sent everything but a few garrison troops to the Balkans. Also, the Senate ordered me to attack some city in Sicily early in the game. I complied, but then massacred the Sicilian inhabitants and deleted every building there I could. The next turn I put my troops back on the ships and sailed them back to the real war in Greece. I let the Sicilian town go rebel. This satisfies the Senate, gives me lots of loot and freed up needed troops.

Closing off one of the back doors to Apollonia with a fort lets you concentrate your entire army under your best general on a drive for Lissa. (sp?) Once you hold that, the Macedonians are essentially split between Athens and Corinth to the southeast, a sizable force watching their side of the "back door" to Apollona, and the garrison in Thessolonica (sp?).

Hammer each army you can reach in turn and whip them piecemeal, especially the garrison in Athens. Just be sure you have enough movement left to get back to your city and garrison it.

Eventually you'll be strong enough to take Cornith. That give you control of the "Statue of Zeus" wonder and good prestige. The Greeks in Sparta will make a nuisance of themselves, but keep after it. Knock a Greek army down to size if you get the chance. One of the real advantages of campaigning in Greece is the ability to rebuild units that have taken losses, all of them in one turn. Your enemy faces a freshly rebuilt force every time.

Once you take Athens and Sparta, the Macedonians are really on the ropes.

Kick them out of the north end of the Lissa Valley and also consider building more forts to futher pen them in around Thessolonica. Force them farther and farther back into Thessolonica and finally finish them off there, and then take the city to the north.

There's likely a remnant of Macedonians somewhere. Mine are in the province now known as Libya. The remaining Greek cities are on the coast of Asia Minor. That's where you'll go next.

[Orvis Tertia]

Nice strategy, Doug. I haven't played the Brutii yet, but one thing that might add to your strategy of pushing the Macedonians north could be to ally with one or two of the factions that are north of the Macedonians and get them to attack, putting the Macedoinans into a two-front war. I like your idea of building forts to hem them in, and the added pressure of a northern attacker seems like it would be a real back-breaker.

[fey]

Early on, while everybody is still fairly low on the tech tree (no spearmen for Romans, no heavy cavalry except for bodyguards) I found out that the best counter to light cav is cavalry of your own.

I have no problems letting enemy cavalry charge my deep-ranked hastati as long as a unit of equites is flank-charging the enemy cavalry.

In an open mobile battle I also try get two of my equites unit onto a single enemy cav unit -- usually it routs immediately the second charge hits it...

Fey

[Doug-Thompson]

Thanks, Orvis Tertia. I did establish friendly relations with Thrace and Dacia, but didn't formally ally with them or ask them to attack. I wanted no competition for Thessolonica.

In hindsight, though, you have a point. It might have made more sense to encourage either of those factions to attack -- then clobber them when the Macedonians were dead. ~D

Also, I didn't massacre or enslave anybody in the Greek cities. Although several of those towns required very heavy garrisons, they are now the Brutii population and economic base. Expanding into eastern Asia Minor by sea was pretty easy with these rich provinces providing ships and troops. "Happy" buildings should reduce the need for garrisons soon enough.

[camulos]

In hindsight, though, you have a point. It might have made more sense to encourage either of those factions to attack -- then clobber them when the Macedonians were dead. ~D

I tried a similar strategy with the Scipii against Carthage but it ended up boxing me in after Carthage was defeated. I allied with the Numidians who were also fighting Carthage but now that Carthage is mine the Senate won't let me take a step into the Numidian territory without the threat of an audit. The Numidians also refuse to grant me military access even though my original intentions were to go after the stray Carthaginians hiding out.

[Morindin]

Im currently fighting the Macedonians and their armies are proving the toughest to date.

Tons of cavalry which I can take down with Triarii, but tons of hoplites and Phalanx which chew up my infantry units. The hoplites are the problem.

I have legions on the way now so Ill see how they fare, but really in the thick of a battle with cavalry running around distrupting your lines its difficult to throw your Pilas at the hoplites before engaging, particulary if your defending.

[fey]

Im currently fighting the Macedonians and their armies are proving the toughest to date.

Tons of cavalry which I can take down with Triarii, but tons of hoplites and Phalanx which chew up my infantry units. The hoplites are the problem.

Historically the phalanx was very vulnerable to skirmishers and cavalry. Generally speaking you don't want to try to outmelee the phalanx...

Try an all-cavalry army? :-) Let the hoplites run around the field after your Cavalry Auxilia, while your real cavalry kills the enemy cavalry. Without their own cavalry support, phalanxes are horribly vulnerable to charges from the rear and from the flanks, especially if they get separated from each other chasing after your skirmishers...

Fey

[Morindin]

I feel the Roman cavalry is pretty useless, and thats a ton of micromanagement! :)

Im thinking of a frontline of 10 Triarii followed by 8 aux archers which rip through Phalanxs and cavalry alike (yes even when its charging!)

Triarii are much faster than Phalanxs, if I concentrate my fire on the hoplites and hold the cavalry off with Triarii I should be able to decimate them.

[Orvis Tertia]

I've been fighting only Gauls, Germans and Rebels so far, so I've only faced a couple of mercenary hoplites, but I will tell you it's never a good idea to go head-to-head with hoplites in melee unless you have your own. Do everything you can to get to their flanks. They are so slow, it should be easy to keep them off balance. Velites can tear them up. Putting your light or heavy infantry in front of a line of hoplites and engaging is just asking for trouble, but using them as bait while your cavalry rush them from behind is good. I haven't tried dogs against them yet, but I'll bet dogs would be great if you can hit the hoplites from the flank. How are you going to fight a dog with a long spear unless you get the dog before he gets close to you? (I hope I personally never have to find out the answer to this question lol.)

[Morindin]

I've been fighting only Gauls, Germans and Rebels so far, so I've only faced a couple of mercenary hoplites, but I will tell you it's never a good idea to go head-to-head with hoplites in melee unless you have your own. Do everything you can to get to their flanks. They are so slow, it should be easy to keep them off balance. Velites can tear them up. Putting your light or heavy infantry in front of a line of hoplites and engaging is just asking for trouble, but using them as bait while your cavalry rush them from behind is good. I haven't tried dogs against them yet, but I'll bet dogs would be great if you can hit the hoplites from the flank. How are you going to fight a dog with a long spear unless you get the dog before he gets close to you? (I hope I personally never have to find out the answer to this question lol.)

Your advice is sound unless your outnumbered and defending (where Ive had my problems).

Ive tried dogs against hoplites and the dont do very well.

[Orvis Tertia]

Your advice is sound unless your outnumbered and defending (where Ive had my problems).

Ive tried dogs against hoplites and the dont do very well.

That is an interesting problem. Here are some thoughts off the cuff that I obviously haven't tested in battle yet: Being outnumbered could possibly be offset by the fact that you have superior speed. The trick might be to go on the offensive even though you are defending. Instead of waiting for the enemy to come to you, take the initiative from him and attack. Since your light infantry are more mobile than his hoplites, it might be possible to make a charge for his flanks before he can get turned around to face you.

I was fighting hoplites only with Hastati and was outnumbered 2:1, I might first try to manually replicate skirmish mode against one of the hoplite units on the flank. Run to one side of the enemy line instead of standing and waiting for him to advance to me, and set my Hastati on fire at will. Throw some pilae (spelling?) and then run back before he could engage in melee. Repeat until almost depleted in ammo. Then, still running, run the end around and try to hit the flank. If you have enough troops, then it could even be possible to break your line into two or three parts. The center is meant as a diversion and to keep the enemy from turning toward your flank. When the hoplites come at you, use the center to fire missiles and drop back. Meanwhile your flanks (or just one flank) attempts to charge around the enemy's flank. If they turn to face the charge, it might open a new flank that your center can charge into.

This is all just speculation of course. A simple test might show it to be a completely unworkable tactic, but I would attempt it if I was facing the situation you describe. Ah, if only I were at home where I could test it...

[Orvis Tertia]

Oops. The second paragraph in my above post should begin "If I was..."

[csebal]

Orvis Tertia wrote:


While friendly fire does occur in the setup I described, it tends to not be as damaging as you might think. And it's offset by the speed with which you can take down the enemy. In other words, your own troops will pick off a few of their friends by accident, but the enemy will kill fewer of your troops. It's been very effective for me against the Gauls. I wiped them off the map without a single lost battle.

Well, we just seem to have different experience with skirmishers. To be honest, i do not like them, simply because the rather low and straight flight profile of the javelins causes too many friendly casulties, too often.

Then again, it may help to stop a charge, and it is very well possible, that the total ammount of casulties will be less with the tactic you described.
I mainly use velites as an expendable force to force then enemy into attacking, or moving away. In that aspect, they are excellent.

Doug-Thompson wrote:


...

I claim the first strategy with a cutesy name: The "Brutii Blitz."


Sigh.. i wanted to call my tactic like that... well, i think i'll have to develop something new: what about - "The REAL Brutii Blitz." ? :P



I sent everything but a few garrison troops to the Balkans. Also, the Senate ordered me to attack some city in Sicily early in the game. I complied, but then massacred the Sicilian inhabitants and deleted every building there I could. The next turn I put my troops back on the ships and sailed them back to the real war in Greece. I let the Sicilian town go rebel. This satisfies the Senate, gives me lots of loot and freed up needed troops.
...


Ahh.. the senate loves to give assignments that have nothing to do with our Brutii goals, and those tasks usually involve travelling to china... :/ Speaking about the city in Sicily.. something starting with L, i cant remember the name.

Just exterminate pop, leave a hestati and a velite there, and produce a peasant unit... that should take care of any rebellion. its a very good province, with produces quite a lot of income...

by the way, i'm still allied with the macedonians, but already wiped the greek off the peninsula. My next move will be to blitz down the macedonians, why? Well, because... ummmm.. they have an ugly flag.

One day, Rome will rule the world, and I will rule Rome. After all, we, the Brutii are the only true Romans.

[Cennyan]

Although this is a tactical thread, I've found the strategy of blitzing the Macedonians hard in the opening moves AND building a fort to close one of those gaps north of Apollonia (sp?) works very, very well.

I did the exact same thing. My third turn saw me cross the ocean and take over the closest city (by senate order). My fifth turn saw me take the city directly south of it. At this point I ran into my first Cavalry unit. I had a solid mix of all available units, 3 equatates, 3 hastati, 3 Veletites, 2 wardogs and 2 generals. I had about 40-50 more troops than the attacker. My first move was to flank my three equatates and shoot directly for his general. I lost may 60 on the initial charge, but my flank suceeded and caused them to route. From there it was easy to hold the second city. The next target was the city just to the east and north (inside the valley between the mountains...sorry can't remember the name). Once you take that city, you need to retrain everyone and upgrade their armour. At this point, all of my troops where at least 3 bronze veterans, most where 1 silver and I had a troop of Hastati at 2 SIlver. I made very short work of the rest of the Macedonians with my newly upgraded troops. By turn 20 I had taken all but one macedonian province and anhilated the greeks.

Hope this proves useful :)

[Doug-Thompson]

... The next target was the city just to the east and north (inside the valley between the mountains...sorry can't remember the name). Once you take that city, you need to retrain everyone and upgrade their armour. At this point, all of my troops where at least 3 bronze veterans, most where 1 silver and I had a troop of Hastati at 2 SIlver. I made very short work of the rest of the Macedonians with my newly upgraded troops.

Yes, taking Larissa (the city in valley) is the key. You whomp up on isolated Macedonian armies, then retrain your troops in Larissa. You're fighting with a fresh army every time and gaining troop experience while the Macedonians have to march back to Thesselonica to retrain. Bleed the Macedonians white.

[Doug-Thompson]

Ahh.. the senate loves to give assignments that have nothing to do with our Brutii goals, and those tasks usually involve travelling to china... :/ Speaking about the city in Sicily.. something starting with L, i cant remember the name.

Just exterminate pop, leave a hestati and a velite there, and produce a peasant unit... that should take care of any rebellion. its a very good province, with produces quite a lot of income...

That's an option, but I prefer the extra loot income, which makes the blitz in Greece go faster. Probably six of one and a half-dozen of the other, but I'd rather garrison a town in Greece with those same troops. To each his own. ~:cheers:

[ah_dut]

Sorry dudes but i'm UK so RTW comes out in 2days, which is annoying but in theory could you not just put all of your troops in one flank and then roll the flank up from the side? this proved effective in the demo against Carthage's Poeni in the demo at least for me. Just me 2 cents.