Cavalry way overpowered

[Armchair Athlete]

OK, does anyone else here think that cavalry are much too strong? At the moment there is basically no reason to build anything other than cavalry, apart from city sieges and defence. There is simply no counter to fast cavalry other than more cavalry, you can move them around spears and charge them from behind (who cant turn aroud fast enough), they slaughter archers and skirmishers (which is fine) and defeat swordsmen. I build armies of pretty much just Macedonian Light lancers (plus two units of merc hoplites, 3 cretan archers and a couple of skirmishers) and am dominating with ease (on Hard battle/normal camp map). In game I always see Egypt and Macedon dominating becuase of their excellent cavalry. I would rather have Macedonian Light Lancers than even post Marian Legionnaires! And dont even get me started on cavalry archers. Has anyone figured out how/where to mod unit files yet? becuase i was thinking of maybe doubling their upkeep cost, so the AI cant build armies of fast cavalry.

[Dorkus]

someone on the come posted that spear anti cav bonuses aren't working.

that would go a long way toward explaining cavalry dominance.

[ElmarkOFear]

This link, provided by someone at the .com, would probably explain exactly why this would be: https://activision.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/activision.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=13121&p_created=1095800725&p_sid=KXUT3jmh&p_lva=&p_sp=cF9zcmNoPTEmcF9zb3J0X2J5PTI6MSZwX2dyaWRzb3J0PSZwX3Jvd19jbnQ9NDMmcF9zZWFyY2hfdHlwZT1zZWFyY2hfbmw mcF9wcm9kX2x2bDE9JnBfcHJvZF9sdmwyPSZwX3BhZ2U9MSZwX3NlYXJjaF90ZXh0PVJvbWU*&p_li=

If Activision had CA make fatigue less of a factor in battles, then I wonder what other things they changed so the new RTS/Console players would have an easier time? Maybe, less spear vs. cav bonuses? That might also explain why the RTW Prima guide is the only guide in the TW series which doesn't explain the combat system, with its penalties, bonuses, etc . . . they don't want anyone to know how the real-time battles have been "dumbed-down".

[Armchair Athlete]

That would explain a bit, lower fatigue effect means that cav can flank much easier

[discovery1]

Is it just me, or are cavalry more effective against hoplites than against hastati? At least when the hastati are nice and deep.

[Oaty]

Cavalry is'nt so overpowered but I'm playing on huge units wich makes it a bit different(units have more staying power). The trick is to bog the cavalry down once they lose there momentum they are sitting ducks. What makes them appear to be way overpowered is if they route the enemy before there charge loses its power they can continue the charge on. But if the unit withstands the charge that cavalry is pretty much screwed.

[Praylak]

I agree, thats exactly what I seen happening. They get their almighty charge, but if they get hung up in group they attacked, they get chewed badly. I've found a deep formation of Legionaries on defend take a cavalry charge pretty well. Cavalry has seem to become a bit of gamble, I like it really. Knowing when to charge and who to charge, makes all the difference.

[slackker]

i don't hav the game but heres a ques: is the computer AI smart enuf to withdraw their calvary and recharge? i.e prevent if from being bogged down..

[Daevyll]

As long as you stand still before the charge, and have 'guard' mode enabled, I find that my Hastati stand up pretty well to a cavalry charge.

Granted it's 'only' Barbarian cavalry, but then Hastati are only light infantry themselves.


Conversely I've found my Equites massacred by Gaul Swordsmen on several occasions.

What _does_ make a huge difference (but then so did it in STW/MTW) is the General's command/traits.
I still wish for a way to tone down the effects of the general a bit (say 50%).

[Sir Toma of Spain]

i don't hav the game but heres a ques: is the computer AI smart enuf to withdraw their calvary and recharge? i.e prevent if from being bogged down..

I had it happen to me once. It was in an ambush (i got ambushed) and i was out numbered 1024 to 220.

[SpencerH]

i don't hav the game but heres a ques: is the computer AI smart enuf to withdraw their calvary and recharge? i.e prevent if from being bogged down..


Yes, and with the right conditions it can become a Benny Hill parody with the cav withdrawing, circling, attacking, ad infinitum, all done at 'cockroach speed'.

[Puzz3D]

The running speeds in the game seem about the same as in the demo, and they are too fast. If those speeds were reduced, the effect of fatigue and charging might improve, and you would be able to control more units at a time. I'm stunned to see that walking, running and charging speeds have been removed from the unit stats. You cannot directly mod these speeds.

[Turbo]

Cavalry should be overpowering against infantry --- for this period it is realistic. Spear and pikes were not utilized effectively against cavalry. Defense in depth would absorb the cavalry charge and the result melee would decimate the cavalry.

[DisruptorX]

In my experience, Pikes slaughter cavalry if they attack the front. The horses die as they hit the pikes, they don't even make it to the men. I've begun fighting defensively with a full semicircle of pikes facing every direction. On the other hand, spears do nothing. A frontal charge of cavalry into eastern spearmen sends the spearmen running in seconds.

[kataphraktoi]

I've sent some scythed chariots against some light infantry and peasants - the scythed chariots were beaten to a pulp....

[Red Harvest]

Cavalry are uber in RTW. You really don't need infantry. The game system has fast kills for flanking and super fast movement speed. This does in the old "rock, paper, scissors." Now "scissors" outflanks rock and kills it before it has a chance to bash.

I'm disappointed with the battles. All infantry fights might be good, but all of the battles I fight are dominated by cavalry.

[Turbo]

Cavalry are uber in RTW. You really don't need infantry. The game system has fast kills for flanking and super fast movement speed. This does in the old "rock, paper, scissors." Now "scissors" outflanks rock and kills it before it has a chance to bash.

I'm disappointed with the battles. All infantry fights might be good, but all of the battles I fight are dominated by cavalry.

I haven't found that to be the case at all. Cavalry does overwhelm lower grade infantry, but against better units like the Gaul swordsmen, they often take more punishment than they hand out. If anything, I have been gravitating to infantry as I find the cavalry expensive and their performance less than stellar.

[d6veteran]

Elmark, how many times you going to post that link?

I don't find the cavarly overpowered. Are we playing the same game? Do you not recall what cavalry could do to non spear units in MTW?

If you use cavarly correctly they will cut through the enemy. Otherwise they get bogged down and die quickly. Seems pretty accurate to me.

[Leet Eriksson]

I find it a bit wiered, in some situations my cavalry get killed by skirmishers, like greek peltasts and heavy peltasts(illyrian mercs), but they do pretty well against militia hoplites (not frontal, but when flanked them or attacking from the rear of the unit)... i'm talking about the equites, i haven't tried the other factions cav yet. But overall i find cavs satisfactory, and and very maneuverable and almost useless in melee, wich is pretty much historically correct i guess.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

The running speeds in the game seem about the same as in the demo, and they are too fast. If those speeds were reduced, the effect of fatigue and charging might improve, and you would be able to control more units at a time. I'm stunned to see that walking, running and charging speeds have been removed from the unit stats. You cannot directly mod these speeds.
That is very bad news. :sad: So much for the hoped "great modability" of the game. So they want to dumbify their games?

Fair enough. I guess I won't bother with the TW series anymore. :no:

[TinCow]

I agree, I don't see much of a problem. Cavalry works well when attacking a flank or the front of a THIN line. Frontal attacks against most units in deep formation is very bad news. This seems to make sense from a realism perspective. If you are having problems with your armies being destroyed by cavalry, use deeper formations and cover your flanks with your own cavalry. This is the exact same 'counter' that was used historically.

[LittleRaven]

Fair enough. I guess I won't bother with the TW series anymore. :no:*chuckle* You'll miss out on what is most assuredly one of the best games in years (problems notwithstanding) because the movement stats have been moved to a different file?

Your loss.

(you can still mod movement rates, they're just stored in a different place)

edit: I haven't faced too much enemy cavalry yet, but what I have hasn't been a problem. Deep formations are the key. Granted, I've only gone against light cavalry, but in my experience, if the cavalry fails to 'break through,' they'll be dogmeat in no time. Even light infantry cuts them down pretty handily once they lose their momentum. That probably doesn't hold true for heavy cav, but how much heavy cavalry existed in this time frame? (besides elephants)

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

*chuckle* You'll miss out on what is most assuredly one of the best games in years (problems notwithstanding) because the movement stats have been moved to a different file?

Your loss.

(you can still mod movement rates, they're just stored in a different place)
LOL!!! :grin: My answer was like that, to provoke a reaction and to get feedback on that issue. :wink:

Good to know that they can be moded. More hope now. Thanks... :thumbsup:

[Thoros of Myr]

There must be something that governs how much units speed up when they run and charge unless it's automaticly calced from thier base speed?

Anyway, some people are blowing this "way overpowered" way out of proportion. Things like cav never die and inf is totally useless is so untrue it's just ridiculous.

[Red Harvest]

I haven't found that to be the case at all. Cavalry does overwhelm lower grade infantry, but against better units like the Gaul swordsmen, they often take more punishment than they hand out. If anything, I have been gravitating to infantry as I find the cavalry expensive and their performance less than stellar.

Not really. With the cav you just flank the heavy infantry or swordsmen and they rout immediately. I've adopted the cavalry rush tactics of the AI. Pick off skirmishers, pick off light infantry. Then pick off heavy infantry. Use the cav to hit each unit from multiple directions and it rapidly succumbs. You can't really create a spear or shield wall, and even if you could, the AI wouldn't use it properly.

[Russ Mitchell]

If half of what I'm hearing is true, then I can only say...

GOOD!

I know that scissor/paper/rock is a nice principle, but spearmen were VASTLY overpowered in MTW compared to their real-life counterparts, and when hit at the flank or rear, they should indeed rout almost instantly. That's why generals spent so much time trying to secure their own flanks while trying to flank their opponents.

It's what happened in real life, time and time again. Doesn't mean that cavalry can't be countered, but hearing this is a heartening note of realism across my humble desktop...

[Steppe Merc]

I like the Cavalry as it is. Of course, I've only played as the Parthians, and they should of course have the best cavalry, along with the Scythians.
I noticed that charges are extremely costly things, escecially if the unit doesn't break. OF course, I'm playing on Huge units, so things might be a bit different for me.

[Red Harvest]

If half of what I'm hearing is true, then I can only say...

GOOD!

I know that scissor/paper/rock is a nice principle, but spearmen were VASTLY overpowered in MTW compared to their real-life counterparts, and when hit at the flank or rear, they should indeed rout almost instantly. That's why generals spent so much time trying to secure their own flanks while trying to flank their opponents.

It's what happened in real life, time and time again. Doesn't mean that cavalry can't be countered, but hearing this is a heartening note of realism across my humble desktop...

No it is not what happened in real life. Real life battles usually took some time in melee, minutes or hours even. Things collapsed in minutes when flanked, not in less than 10 seconds. It takes time for panic to set in and for the men to run. I doubt you will find it realistic. Heavy infantry is peasant level in RTW with respect to morale. And no, a unit of cav didn't kill every man 5 seconds after they routed. These units rout so fast that the forward guys wouldn't even KNOW they had been flanked yet. They wouldn't panic, because they wouldn't even be aware of what was happening. That is how fast it happens in RTW.

Relatively few men were killed until armies actually routed. That is one reason that in *hard fought* battles the victor might lose a few hundred or thousand men out of tens of thousands, while the loser lost 2/3 of his force.

If you think it is realistic that I can crash 6 or 8 light cav units into a mixed infantry wall frontally, and watch it collapse in seconds, then you are sorely mistaken. While I usually flank as well, I just rush straight in if I'm not facing much in the way of spears and want to get it over with. Target 2 or 3 cav on a single infantry unit, and it crumples at the charge. Then hit the adjacent flank units and they rout before they can react.

In MTW, I found that units routed relatively soon if you flanked them unless they were high valour. I always thought that flanking effects were under represented to some degree in MTW (especially in the HTW mod, where surrounding a phalanx had no effect). In RTW you get an increased flanking effect or morale hit, plus a very high movement speed that increases the number of flank attacks disproportinately, along with a rapid kill speed. Does three wrongs make a right?

[d6veteran]

I feel like I'm playing a different game from some of you. I am not seeing infantry evaporate or route that quickly.

[SpencerH]

There must be something that governs how much units speed up when they run and charge unless it's automaticly calced from thier base speed?

As far as anyone has found, the base speed is hard coded and not in the data files. The current mod slows the speed of all units by modifying the movement on different terrains.

[TinCow]

If you think it is realistic that I can crash 6 or 8 light cav units into a mixed infantry wall frontally, and watch it collapse in seconds, then you are sorely mistaken. While I usually flank as well, I just rush straight in if I'm not facing much in the way of spears and want to get it over with. Target 2 or 3 cav on a single infantry unit, and it crumples at the charge. Then hit the adjacent flank units and they rout before they can react.

If your problem is simply that you kill the enemy too fast with lots of cavalry, might I suggest using less cavalry? That might not be the ideal fix to your problem, but all that matters is that you enjoy the game... so just stop using them if that helps.

[Sir Robin]

Just for the record I have only played battles as the Julii, Scipii, and Carthaginians.

I still have not gotten to a good mid-game point so I have mostly faced lighter cavalry with the occasional General's Bodyguard.

Cavalry is behaving exactly like I would expect. It destroys unsupported or out-of-position units.

Depending on the AI General's ranking I have owned the battlefield, had a slugfest, or been owned. :help:

Cavalry may be to fast but its effects feel accurate.

Myself, I try for deep infantry-melee lines with missile behind and cavalry on the flanks. Never let elephants run free on your flanks. ~:mecry:

I counter their cavalry with mine and I have seen the AI do the same.

Of course its seems harder to control the chaos than it did in STW or MTW but hopefully one of our esteemed modders will find a way to slightly slow down movement speeds and disable the (insert echo here) Battle Timer of Dooooom.

[Red Harvest]

If your problem is simply that you kill the enemy too fast with lots of cavalry, might I suggest using less cavalry? That might not be the ideal fix to your problem, but all that matters is that you enjoy the game... so just stop using them if that helps.

Nice try, but it isn't just me, the AI has the same issue. When I used infantry I got whipped by cav the same way (even worse on "very hard.") I started out using an historical mix of units. What I found was that the infantry was useless. They couldn't hold in melee while things happened on the flanks. There is no real battle line being formed. Battles devolve in just a few seconds to a mess where the AI has the advantage of issuing orders to everyone simultaneously as often as it likes.

The AI likes to do lots of bizarre crossing patterns as the units close and this disorders the line.

[Russ Mitchell]

They wouldn't panic, because they wouldn't even be aware of what was happening. That is how fast it happens in RTW.
....
If you think it is realistic that I can crash 6 or 8 light cav units into a mixed infantry wall frontally, and watch it collapse in seconds, then you are sorely mistaken.
....
In RTW you get an increased flanking effect or morale hit, plus a very high movement speed that increases the number of flank attacks disproportinately, along with a rapid kill speed. Does three wrongs make a right?

Sir, what you're describing is either patch or mod material, similar to my difficulties with horse-archers in MTW: finessable material. The speed of collapse may be one thing... the expectation of collapse, another, and the difference between a swordsman and a pikeman against cavalry... vast. There's a REASON Giovanni Villani was woken up from his bed in the middle of the night all the way in Florence with the news that the Flemish infantry had defeated the french knights at Courtrai -- it was the equivalent of hearing that the US 2nd Infantry had gotten routed by the Taliban in a heads-up fight. Certainly the Normans wiped the walls with the (elite) Swabian greatswordsmen at Civitate, who were killed to the man. The Hungarian heavy cavalry inflicted huge casualties on the Ottoman infantry, scything back and forth through their ranks like wheat until the latter finally figured out how to defeat them (by opening their ranks and then falling on them from all sides).

Was heavy infantry raised that could stand against a charge? Yes, such infantry did exist. But they were by no means the norm, and the ease with which they are able to be raised in MTW is a fairly unrealistic thing. Fine for game balance.. but it's nice to see that they figured out a way to keep the game balanced while putting the "realism pendulum" closer to the center.

[Morindin]

So far I have played around with Cavalry in Multiplayer and as the Julii faction in single player

Roman Cavalry/Esquites/Generals Bodyguards vs Warband/Swordsmen or any lightly armoured unit...
Front on they will take a few out in the initial hit but usually get cut to bits shortly after.
On the Flanks they will crash through the enemy lines usually causing them to rout IF they are pinned.

Gaul and Macedonian Cavalry vs my own units
Usually they will take a small number of troops out on a head on crash (5-10) and then get decimated by my Roman Infantry. If they hit me on the flanks they will do much more damage but my units still chew them up in melee.

Multiplayer with tougher units. Urban Cohorts, Legions, Legion Cavalry,etc
Cavalry is fairly lame here. The tougher units are hardly phased by a front on or even flanking cavalry charge. Even elephants, while they will clearly rip through units quickly do not cause a rout in these men until they are down to 5 or 6 men left.

In a single player game vs Macedonia my tired cavalry got beaten in HAND TO HAND BY FRESH ARCHERS. Cavalry is very powerful vs unarmoured or lightly armoured men with their initial charge, but they are generally MUCH weaker (except Elephants) in melee.
Spearmen also take a while to kill cavalry but they take very minimal loses. Playing a multiplayer game on one of those histroic battles (the same one as in the Demo I think) my Triarii spearmen completely wiped the floor with Hannibals cavalry and then were the only units intact after numerous elephant rampages.

Is cavalry overpowered? No. Infact it gets worse the later on in the tech tree you go.

[Thoros of Myr]

As far as anyone has found, the base speed is hard coded and not in the data files. The current mod slows the speed of all units by modifying the movement on different terrains.

Yes, and if the actual individual unit speed is hard coded that's a big letdown, how can CA claim this to be a moddable game when we can't even change something that simple? :skull:

The movement on terrain mod has a positive affect IMO but ofcourse does not allow specific units to be singled out and modified

I guess we are left to hope that whatever mod tools CA release will have these options.

I think killing speed is a bigger issue as far as vanilla RTW though.

[Morindin]

Yes, and if the actual individual unit speed is hard coded that's a big letdown, how can CA claim this to be a moddable game when we can't even change something that simple? :skull:

The movement on terrain mod has a positive affect IMO but ofcourse does not allow specific units to be singled out and modified

I guess we are left to hope that whatever mod tools CA release will have these options.

I think killing speed is a bigger issue as far as vanilla RTW though.

I think killing speed is fine and much more realistic than MTW. I remember my first thoughts playing MTW thinking the killing speed in battles was way too slow, especially large numbers vs small numbers.

The higher the armoured the unit in RTW the slower the killing speeds. Try out some Urban Cohorts vs Sacred band and watch them duke it out. Or even worse two hoplite units fighting.
Of course killing Gauls with no armour is quite a quick affair.

[Thon]

i gotta agree with liking the new killing speed. medieval's was far too slow, once a unit routed you could decimate it through captures, which felt right. but before the route infantry would slug it out all day unless they were totally mismatched(varangians vs spearmen), or severely outnumbered.

so far though, cavalry seems to do exactly what it could in medieval imo, it's effect is just sped up as fast as the rest of the game. in mtw infantry that was engaged already, and took a cavalry charge to their flanks or rear would route within seconds and be destroyed. maybe the crazy ones with super morale would stick it out a little longer but they'd break and run if help didn't arrive asap.

as for charging formed infantry, i havn't had to face any phalanx's yet(playing julii), but i won't be doing that with equites anymore ~:mecry: . maybe once legionaire cavalry arrives within my armies. but i did it plenty of times in mtw, mostly when i noticed the ai didn't have any spearmen/polearms in their infantry line. my last mega campaign as the byzantines, more than once i routed and destroyed massive ai armies within minutes with a large kata/prono charge, as the vg and byz infantry watched.

[son of spam]

Cav IS OP. I think the reason some of you don't notice it is that you just charge once.

I use general cav, and I pretty much destroy anything in the way. As soon as the cav meets the enemy, I tell them to withdraw. They do so immediately, and I lose maybe one guy. In the meantime, my ubercharge kills like 10% of their unit (it's easy to charge slow inf in the flanks). Rinse, repeat. The only thing that counters my cav is enemy cav.

I suggest that cav should not be able to withdraw as easily. Once a cav charges, it should get bogged down almost immediately, and if you withdraw, you should lose a significant amount of your unit. Then you would have to be much more careful with your cav charges, instead of running them around like a panzer.

[discovery1]

No it is not what happened in real life. Real life battles usually took some time in melee, minutes or hours even. Things collapsed in minutes when flanked, not in less than 10 seconds. It takes time for panic to set in and for the men to run. I doubt you will find it realistic. Heavy infantry is peasant level in RTW with respect to morale.

But in real life, the blocks of men were MUCH larger. I'd bet that the largest army you can have, even on the largest size, is at best half the size of a rf legion(5000 men I think). It makes sense that the enemy collapses so quickly when hit in the flank, at least with these unit sizes.

[Morindin]

Cav IS OP. I think the reason some of you don't notice it is that you just charge once.

I use general cav, and I pretty much destroy anything in the way. As soon as the cav meets the enemy, I tell them to withdraw. They do so immediately, and I lose maybe one guy. In the meantime, my ubercharge kills like 10% of their unit (it's easy to charge slow inf in the flanks). Rinse, repeat. The only thing that counters my cav is enemy cav.

I suggest that cav should not be able to withdraw as easily. Once a cav charges, it should get bogged down almost immediately, and if you withdraw, you should lose a significant amount of your unit. Then you would have to be much more careful with your cav charges, instead of running them around like a panzer.

I NEVER leave my cavalry in melee. And actually, quite a few of them die when you withdrawl. I think you've just been lucky so far to be honest.
Quite a lot of guys get back up after being knocked down by a cavalry charge too.

And when you withdraw you shouldnt lose a "significant amount of your unit", but you should lose a few, which is what happens. Actually most of the cavalry in RTW is bunched up so there are a lot of guys milling around at the back, which is why its so easy to withdraw, but as your cavalry gets thinned down you will lose more and more.

Also, of course cavalry are going to win if you're allowed to hammer someones flank over and over, infact, any unit is going to win in a 2v1 situation. 1v1 I rarely have any success with cavalry and the later on in the tech tree the worse it gets.

I actually think most people think cavalry is OP because they are fighting low moral unarmoured Gauls led by a 0 star general.

[discovery1]

Cav IS OP. I think the reason some of you don't notice it is that you just charge once.

I use general cav, and I pretty much destroy anything in the way. As soon as the cav meets the enemy, I tell them to withdraw. They do so immediately, and I lose maybe one guy. In the meantime, my ubercharge kills like 10% of their unit (it's easy to charge slow inf in the flanks). Rinse, repeat. The only thing that counters my cav is enemy cav.

I suggest that cav should not be able to withdraw as easily. Once a cav charges, it should get bogged down almost immediately, and if you withdraw, you should lose a significant amount of your unit. Then you would have to be much more careful with your cav charges, instead of running them around like a panzer.

Didn't Alexander the Great do something along those lines? Charge with the companions then withdraw before the Persians could recover from the shock?

[Morindin]

But in real life, the blocks of men were MUCH larger. I'd bet that the largest army you can have, even on the largest size, is at best half the size of a rf legion(5000 men I think). It makes sense that the enemy collapses so quickly when hit in the flank, at least with these unit sizes.

This is true, people forget that real life battles were fought with thousands of men and RTW are merely hundreds.

The Romans typically used three lines of battle and each line consisted of far more men than we get to play with.

Also, only early units lead by a 0 star general flee quickly. Even 0 valour Legioneer troops wont flee until they're down to a very small number of men.

The last battle I fought against the Macedonians my units of Principes with maybe 1 valour would flee when they were reduced to 15 or so men, and would put in one hell of a fight. They were only lead by a three star general too.

[Morindin]

I have to laugh at this thread. People were claiming cavalry was underpowered in MTW because swords would beat them when they charged head on (into Fresh infantry too mind you), and now people are claiming cavalry is overpowered because heaven forbid, they kill swordsmen when charging into the flank?

Golly gosh who would ever have thought. :idea2:

[Thoros of Myr]

I was mainly speaking in terms of the killing speed with cav and I think as was pointed out the main problem there is the small unit sizes, shallow ranks etc... that was making it feel over the top. I'm going to play on huge from now on until maybe a mod comes out that just increases the size of infantry.

[Morindin]

I was mainly speaking in terms of the killing speed with cav and I think as was pointed out the main problem there is the small unit sizes, shallow ranks etc... that was making it feel over the top. I'm going to play on huge from now on until maybe a mod comes out that just increases the size of infantry.

If you're playing as Romans you get way larger unit sizes after you can build legions. 122 I think.

I think that might be pro-marius reforms.

[Thon]

since i havn't faced off against any greek armies in the campaign or used much heavy cavalry, i gave about a dozen custom battles a shot.

regular hoplites vs legionaire cavalry. the legionaire cavalry doesn't do half bad, but the hoplites hold them, and even won several battles(though they were mauled). taking into account lego cavalry costs about 2x what reg hoplites do, and take 2 turns to train, i'm content with that.

armored hoplites are downright scary though, do a few custom battles with them. i tried everything i could think of short of elephants with laser eyes. lego cavalry didn't get one kill in a few battles, praetorian cavalry couldn't kill more than a half dozen with several charges before they broke. and the parthian cataphracts would be lucky to get a few kills in multiple charges

by no means did i do an exhaustive test, just several custom battles, 1 on 1, no upgrades, and a straight up charge into a phalanx's front. but nobody can convince me that heavy cavalry are some kind of unstoppable rambo's on horseback, cutting through professional spear walls like they were red shirt guys on star trek.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

I was mainly speaking in terms of the killing speed with cav and I think as was pointed out the main problem there is the small unit sizes, shallow ranks etc... that was making it feel over the top. I'm going to play on huge from now on until maybe a mod comes out that just increases the size of infantry.
But people who have low spec PCs and use small unit sizes shouldn't have to sustain ridiculous and unrealistic killing speeds. Using the large unit size is just like using a chewing gum to hold a wall... :wall:

IMHO, the killing speed itself as nothing to do with ranks or unit size. It's because the game has been detoured the arcade way. Arcade newbies have no attention span for much more realistic large battles that can last for 1 or 2 hours. :rolleyes:

Of course I'm speaking only from my experience with the demo and some mods for it...

[son of spam]

Didn't Alexander the Great do something along those lines? Charge with the companions then withdraw before the Persians could recover from the shock?

Did he? What was the counter for it then? I don't care how historically accurate it is for cav to be OP if it ruins the gameplay.

@Morindin

I think the point of cav is to be used for flanking, but the charge should definitely be all important. You shouldn't be able to just withdraw and charge again so easily. In fact it would make the game (gasp!) strategic if cav charges could only be used effectively once, so you would have to charge it at a point to force a rout.

0v cav did beat 0v CMAA head on IIRC in MTW. Just that cav cost a whole lot more.

[Morindin]

But people who have low spec PCs and use small unit sizes shouldn't have to sustain ridiculous and unrealistic killing speeds. Using the large unit size is just like using a chewing gum to hold a wall... :wall:

IMHO, the killing speed itself as nothing to do with ranks or unit size. It's because the game has been detoured the arcade way. Arcade newbies have no attention span for much more realistic large battles that can last for 1 or 2 hours. :rolleyes:

Of course I'm speaking only from my experience with the demo and some mods for it...

It has nothing to do with arcade style or newbies with no attention span, and I find it far more realistic than waiting for a unit of 166 men to kill off a unit of 3 men, that took about 60 seconds in MTW.

Again heavily armoured troops slog it out for quite a while, maybe killing one another every 20 seconds. I have zoomed in and watched plenty of fights to observe these so called killing speeds and even unarmoured units mill around each other for about 6 seconds in a "parry" stage before taking a swipe. Sometimes it misses sometimes it hits.
Lightly armoured units tend to take that swipe much quicker resulting in fast deaths between them but the heavily armoured units do not do this at all.

[Morindin]

Did he? What was the counter for it then? I don't care how historically accurate it is for cav to be OP if it ruins the gameplay.

@Morindin

I think the point of cav is to be used for flanking, but the charge should definitely be all important. You shouldn't be able to just withdraw and charge again so easily. In fact it would make the game (gasp!) strategic if cav charges could only be used effectively once, so you would have to charge it at a point to force a rout.

0v cav did beat 0v CMAA head on IIRC in MTW. Just that cav cost a whole lot more.

In a 1v1 situation the cav will lose even if you use your tactic. If an enemy unit is engaged and pinned by another enemy unit it allows the cav to easily keep charging, and this is exactly the same as in MTW.
The non engaged unit always disengaged without any problems.

The main difference is in RTW cavalry actually carries some momentum and can take out the first few ranks of an infantry formation rather than magically getting stuck and coming to a halt, infact, some cavalry units in RTW jump the first ranks.

As I have said before, some of these infantry units that are taken out in the initial charge do get back up again, making it seem worse initially than it really is.

My god Ive even charged a sacred band unit in the rear while it was engaging Urban Cohorts and lost around 1/4th of my cavalry units (Praeton or whatever) each charge without phasing the Cohorts, how can that be "overpowered"?

What units are you fighting our of curiosity?

[Thoros of Myr]

Theres no substitute for more men on the field.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Again heavily armoured troops slog it out for quite a while, maybe killing one another every 20 seconds. I have zoomed in and watched plenty of fights to observe these so called killing speeds and even unarmoured units mill around each other for about 6 seconds in a "parry" stage before taking a swipe.
So, tell me... ...do you realy think that, in real life combat, ANY unit could be sweeped off the field in 6 seconds?

If that was true, battles like Andrianople would have lasted about 20 min, instead of a whole day, from early morning tiill after sunset... :rolleyes:



Sometimes it misses sometimes it hits. Lightly armoured units tend to take that swipe much quicker resulting in fast deaths between them but the heavily armoured units do not do this at all.
That should be obvious. In reality it is so also. But not at the rate we're seeing in this game. In real life, a unit is not a coerent single-minded entity. It is a collection of many men and these man react and recieve different stimulae and information throughout a battle. So, accordingly, some of them might percieve a cavalry charge on the flank, while the other flank won't know it for some minutes. We're nor talking minutes here, we're talking 1-2 seconds at the most for the whole unit to rout... :wall:

[Kraxis]

Alexander made singular charges at different enemies at different times.

At Gaugamela and Issus he charged the Persian left flank. He steamrolled both times, then he turned and charged towards the center, routing the units he encountered one by one until Darius had to flee. Quite simply Alexander used his much superior cavalry to the best effect possible.
But considering the Companions were perhaps the best cavalry (at least in the department of the charge) in the ancient world it is unfair to say what Alexander did is ok for all others.

[Morindin]

So, tell me... ...do you realy think that, in real life combat, ANY unit could be sweeped off the field in 6 seconds?

If that was true, battles like Andrianople would have lasted about 20 min, instead of a whole day, from early morning tiill after sunset... :rolleyes:



That should be obvious. In reality it is so also. But not at the rate we're seeing in this game. In real life, a unit is not a coerent single-minded entity. It is a collection of many men and these man react and recieve different stimulae and information throughout a battle. So, accordingly, some of them might percieve a cavalry charge on the flank, while the other flank won't know it for some minutes. We're nor talking minutes here, we're talking 1-2 seconds at the most for the whole unit to rout... :wall:

1. I have NEVER seen a unit being swept off the field in 6 seconds in RTW. I would challange you to provide a replay of this. I have left Histari fighting Gaul Warbands and come back minutes later to find them still slogging it out.

How many lines of battle in Andrianople, how many men? how good were the generals? Apples to Oranges. By the same account do you really think a battle comprimised of one line and a few hundred men would last all day? I really doubt it.
Have you actually been in a war? I dont know about you, but I cant imagine a fight between two light infantry units going on for very long myself, with all the other crap happening.
The more defence the unit has the longer the battles. This is like bitching in the MTW thread because fights are two quick between highland clansmen. When people have played the campaign right through and are experiancing "20 second fights" with large armies of quality troops then Ill listen.


2. Infact, in RTW, with two good generals units generally will fight almost to the death.
And I would challange this point as well, in RTW units work much better on the invidual scale than they EVER did in MTW. Mass routs are also gone too in RTW, so if you're going to critise RTW for this you have to be more harsh on MTW. Also the ONLY units I have EVER seen rout that quickly have been exhausted Gaul pathetic units already pinned. You'd rout too.
Again I point to my example of Sacred Band infantry being charged again and again and not blinking an eye. The thing that took them down in the end was a volly of Pilum.

[discovery1]

Actually, I would say that at Gaugamela the Persians had the batter cavalry forces, but they were poorly lead and failed to support their fellow Persians(a large chunk of them ran off to alex's camp to save darius' family). SO yes there is a counter to it:more/better cavalry.

Another idea: keep a junk unit on the flank but keep your own cav close. Then when the cavalry charge, send in your own cavs b4 they can with draw.

[Kraxis]

Actually, I would say that at Gaugamela the Persians had the batter cavalry forces, but they were poorly lead and failed to support their fellow Persians(a large chunk of them ran off to alex's camp to save darius' family). SO yes there is a counter to it:more/better cavalry.

Before the battle the Persian cavalry was considered superior. It hadn't been defeated directly yet (at Grannicus it had been local forces and at Issus they had been at the other flank). But at Gaugamela the cream had faced Alexander personally and had been routed savagely.
The troops on the other flank had squared off with Pamenion's Thessalians and few Companions and had been checked despite a massive advantage in numbers (they would have won eventually though).
The troops that had gone off to the camp were the less than stellar Indian cavalry, in fact the right troops to use for such an adventure (but in this particular battle it had been better if they had attacked the Macedonian rear).

It is the fact that Alexander attacked a numerically superior force of elite cavalry with his own cavalry and managed to not only rout them, but really handed them their asses, then disentagled himself to attack a fwe more cavalry, then do the same and attack some infantry ect ect until he reached where Darius was. That is what makes Gaugamela and the Companions so great. They were apparently unstoppable. And this was despite the fact that Daruis was actually doing everything right (picking the best terrain for his larger army, levelling the ground for elephants and chariots, fanning out to encircle Alexander, pitting his best troops against Alexander himself while overwhelming the other flank with numbers, it should have worked).

[discovery1]

Oh. Hmmm, guess I was wrong then :oops:

[son of spam]

Actually, I would say that at Gaugamela the Persians had the batter cavalry forces, but they were poorly lead and failed to support their fellow Persians(a large chunk of them ran off to alex's camp to save darius' family). SO yes there is a counter to it:more/better cavalry.

Another idea: keep a junk unit on the flank but keep your own cav close. Then when the cavalry charge, send in your own cavs b4 they can with draw.

LOL...if the counter to cav is better cav I think that's a slight problem ~D

Actually, I'm not complaining that I can't beat AI cav anymore...the solution simply seems to be don't use that much inf in the first place. Massive gen cav rush!! :charge:

[discovery1]

Why? it doesn't seem unreasonable that the weapon of choice against a fast mobile foe is your own fast mobile force.


Massive gen cav rush!!

Ok, if you want to let the AI govern you cities, be my guest.

[discovery1]

BTW, as the Greek I used an all hoplite army(barring my general) and took most of the Balkans. Then again, only the romans had a decent cav force(numbers wise). And the Macedonians. And they would waste their cav in oblique charges against my line. Although, they did seem to aim for the narrow gaps between my units.

[Sethik]

This link, provided by someone at the .com, would probably explain exactly why this would be: https://activision.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/activision.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=13121&p_created=1095800725&p_sid=KXUT3jmh&p_lva=&p_sp=cF9zcmNoPTEmcF9zb3J0X2J5PTI6MSZwX2dyaWRzb3J0PSZwX3Jvd19jbnQ9NDMmcF9zZWFyY2hfdHlwZT1zZWFyY2hfbmw mcF9wcm9kX2x2bDE9JnBfcHJvZF9sdmwyPSZwX3BhZ2U9MSZwX3NlYXJjaF90ZXh0PVJvbWU*&p_li=

If Activision had CA make fatigue less of a factor in battles, then I wonder what other things they changed so the new RTS/Console players would have an easier time? Maybe, less spear vs. cav bonuses? That might also explain why the RTW Prima guide is the only guide in the TW series which doesn't explain the combat system, with its penalties, bonuses, etc . . . they don't want anyone to know how the real-time battles have been "dumbed-down".

A CA developer in another thread said that wasn't true.

[Morindin]

A CA developer in another thread said that wasn't true.

I'd agree with this as well, as my men usually end up exhausted after a few minutes of fighting on the battlefield. So obviously combat is a huge factor.

The only thing that doesnt seem to get tired at all are wardogs :)

[Armchair Athlete]

1. I have NEVER seen a unit being swept off the field in 6 seconds in RTW. I would challange you to provide a replay of this. I have left Histari fighting Gaul Warbands and come back minutes later to find them still slogging it out.

How many lines of battle in Andrianople, how many men? how good were the generals? Apples to Oranges. By the same account do you really think a battle comprimised of one line and a few hundred men would last all day? I really doubt it.
Have you actually been in a war? I dont know about you, but I cant imagine a fight between two light infantry units going on for very long myself, with all the other crap happening.
The more defence the unit has the longer the battles. This is like bitching in the MTW thread because fights are two quick between highland clansmen. When people have played the campaign right through and are experiancing "20 second fights" with large armies of quality troops then Ill listen.


2. Infact, in RTW, with two good generals units generally will fight almost to the death.
And I would challange this point as well, in RTW units work much better on the invidual scale than they EVER did in MTW. Mass routs are also gone too in RTW, so if you're going to critise RTW for this you have to be more harsh on MTW. Also the ONLY units I have EVER seen rout that quickly have been exhausted Gaul pathetic units already pinned. You'd rout too.
Again I point to my example of Sacred Band infantry being charged again and again and not blinking an eye. The thing that took them down in the end was a volly of Pilum.

What game are you playing? I have defeated entire hoplite amries with pretty much just macedonian Light Lancers, wiping units off the field very quickly. Even Spartan Hoplites succumb much easier than they should from a charge to the rear. Try an all cavalry army, the results will suprise you. Cavalry is too strong due to the speed of fast cavalry, means flaking is much easier and the main counter to cavalry (phalanxes) is very slow to manouver and highly reliant on formation. Cavalry is also much too cheap to rectruit and maintain, come on I mean a basic Iberian Infantry unit having a larger upkeep cost than a 54 man cavalry unit? I would be OK with cavalry being that powerful if they were much more expensive to recruit and maintain, Elephants were balanced well this way, cav shouldn't be that expensive but at least more than basic infantrymen.

[Morindin]

What game are you playing? I have defeated entire hoplite amries with pretty much just macedonian Light Lancers, wiping units off the field very quickly. Even Spartan Hoplites succumb much easier than they should from a charge to the rear. Try an all cavalry army, the results will suprise you. Cavalry is too strong due to the speed of fast cavalry, means flaking is much easier and the main counter to cavalry (phalanxes) is very slow to manouver and highly reliant on formation. Cavalry is also much too cheap to rectruit and maintain, come on I mean a basic Iberian Infantry unit having a larger upkeep cost than a 54 man cavalry unit? I would be OK with cavalry being that powerful if they were much more expensive to recruit and maintain, Elephants were balanced well this way, cav shouldn't be that expensive but at least more than basic infantrymen.

The only times I've used Spartan Hoplites was when played that historic battle, Siege of Sparta, against a human opponent, and my hoplites chewed up everything from any direction, including Elephants.

Also I have played against Carthagians many times and their Sacred Band infantry are pretty much invulnerable to cavalry from any direction.

Early on cavalry is powerful yes, but later on its really quite pitiful. Load up some custom battles and see for yourself.

Also the only counter to cavalry isnt Phalanxs, infact due to their speed they're a pretty crappy counter. Ranged units are pretty good vs cavalry, and Triarii cut them up like theirs no tomorrow, also if you can suck a cavalry unit into melee its pretty much dead.

The speed of cavalry is also about right, i grew up on a farm and ive ridden horses. I always found the light cav quite slow in MTW.
The only problem I have with cavalry is the "school of fish" syndrome and the fact they can change direction without any regard to momentum.

[Morindin]

Maybe this topic needs to be "Lancers are overpowered", because Roman cavalry which is what I have most of my experiance with, is hardly overpowered at all.

[Armchair Athlete]

I have tried custom battles agaist high powered units and early cavalry still does quite well considering its cheap cost. The morale penalty is still the same for being charged in the rear, whether its by Sacred band Cavalry or Equites. And advanced cavalry is just as good late in the game as early cavalry is early in the game, Sacred Band cav and Companions are great. As I said before, their effectiveness I would not mind so much if they were not so cheap to maintain, as someone who grew up with horses as I did you must surely know how expensive they can be to maintain. A bit of cavalry is good, all cavalry/majority cavalry armies are not.

[Morindin]

I have tried custom battles agaist high powered units and early cavalry still does quite well considering its cheap cost. The morale penalty is still the same for being charged in the rear, whether its by Sacred band Cavalry or Equites. And advanced cavalry is just as good late in the game as early cavalry is early in the game, Sacred Band cav and Companions are great. As I said before, their effectiveness I would not mind so much if they were not so cheap to maintain, as someone who grew up with horses as I did you must surely know how expensive they can be to maintain. A bit of cavalry is good, all cavalry/majority cavalry armies are not.

Go check out the screenshots thread in the entrance hall. You will see a screenshot posted by me.

It contains a group of Praeton or whatever Cavalry charging into the flank of a group of Sacred Band, while they [the sacred band] are engaging and pinned by Legions.

Let me tell you something, not only did I take heavy loses, but the Sacred Band took minimal loses and it took a volly of pilums for them to break.

According to you, the Sacred band should have broken and routed right then. Didnt happen.

[Armchair Athlete]

Go check out the screenshots thread in the entrance hall. You will see a screenshot posted by me.

It contains a group of Praeton or whatever Cavalry charging into the flank of a group of Sacred Band, while they [the sacred band] are engaging and pinned by Legions.

Let me tell you something, not only did I take heavy loses, but the Sacred Band took minimal loses and it took a volly of pilums for them to break.

According to you, the Sacred band should have broken and routed right then. Didnt happen.

Seen that screenshot, that was a small generals cavalry unit, not a main cavalry unit. In fact I think the generals cavalry unit is much more balanced than real cavalry, due to its smaller size. I also believe I said in my original post that infantry is only good for defending and conducting sieges, cavalry for everything else, and as that was a siege, my point still holds firm. In a siege it is difficult to get a good run to build up enough speed to crash into the back of a unit, and so the charge momentum is reduced. But you're STILL missing my point. Cavalry is so cheap it can be fielded in large amounts. The best way to counter cavalry is to pin it with one unit then charge with another. Thats a minimum of two units to defeat one unit of cavalry. What are the other cavalry units doing? Charging into the back of whatever unit is attacking the pinned cavalry unit. And thats not even mentioning cavalry with a missile attack. Here is a quick table in which you can see just how cheap cavalry really is

Hastati/Iberian Infantry upkeep per unit - 170 per man - 2.125
Town Watch/Militia Hoplite upkeep per unit - 100 per man - 1.25
Equites upkeep per unit - 110 per man - 2.037
Macedonian Cavalry/Light Lancers upkeep per unit - 140 per man - 2.59

Many of the other units follow these amounts, light infantry being around 170, light cavalry being in the region of 120-140 and militia being 100. Now, to repeat myself a THIRD time, how is that balanced? Why on earth is cavalry cheaper to maintain than light infantry? It is just as easy to get too. Not to mention that cavalry has a much larger move on the campaign map too. Elephants ar every strong too. They are not overpowered I believe because of their very high cost. Now I will say it again, this time even in a new paragraph so you get the point

relative to cost, cavalry is easily the most effective units in the game. They need to be more expensive.

[Red Harvest]

1. I have NEVER seen a unit being swept off the field in 6 seconds in RTW.

WHAT??????? Check the box, you must not have the right game. :charge: They rout so fast you can't even issue an order. They will rout and be swept in a few seconds.

Sometimes the whole battle line dissolves in less than 10 seconds.

[Thoros of Myr]

adonys killing rate mod is an improvement. I played the battle of Sparta...took almost 2 hours from start to finish. Units faught long and bloody battles most taking over 5-10 mins to route. I actually had enough time to issue separate flanking orders for each engangment and never onced puased (ofcourse I never did even before this mod) and I had time to watch a little fighting, some really great animations when your down there seeing them duke it out.

[TinCow]

LOL...if the counter to cav is better cav I think that's a slight problem ~D

Why? If you study Roman battles, cavalry almost always exclusively fought the opposing cavalry until one side one. The winner would then flank.

[Kraxis]

Why? If you study Roman battles, cavalry almost always exclusively fought the opposing cavalry until one side one. The winner would then flank.

Because cavalry was the only force that couls make subtle maneuvers. If the other troops could do that too you can be certain that cavalry would have had a very hard time as all commanders would oppose them with their spear units.
Look at Pharsalus, Ceasar was very heavily outnumbered in cavalry (1000 to 7000 or so). What did he do? He blocked the cavalry with spearmen... Cavalry is not the counter, spearmen are, and were.

[Tim]

WHAT??????? Check the box, you must not have the right game. :charge: They rout so fast you can't even issue an order. They will rout and be swept in a few seconds.

Sometimes the whole battle line dissolves in less than 10 seconds.

You said it brother. I have not fought a single batte -ok, three or four- that last more than a minute once the main forces are engaged. Its like your watching an auto-resolved battle in real-time. I realized people have different playing styles and expectations, but the combat system needs a lot of work.

Infantry speeds seem fine.
Infantry running speeds seem fast.
Ranged units running speed is insane.
I like the cavalry, but agree with the "school of fish" theory. An initial charge on the flank or rear should be devastating, but is too easy to do.
The combat speed/killing has got to be reduced.

[Morindin]

Seen that screenshot, that was a small generals cavalry unit, not a main cavalry unit. In fact I think the generals cavalry unit is much more balanced than real cavalry, due to its smaller size. I also believe I said in my original post that infantry is only good for defending and conducting sieges, cavalry for everything else, and as that was a siege, my point still holds firm. In a siege it is difficult to get a good run to build up enough speed to crash into the back of a unit, and so the charge momentum is reduced. But you're STILL missing my point. Cavalry is so cheap it can be fielded in large amounts. The best way to counter cavalry is to pin it with one unit then charge with another. Thats a minimum of two units to defeat one unit of cavalry. What are the other cavalry units doing? Charging into the back of whatever unit is attacking the pinned cavalry unit. And thats not even mentioning cavalry with a missile attack. Here is a quick table in which you can see just how cheap cavalry really is

Hastati/Iberian Infantry upkeep per unit - 170 per man - 2.125
Town Watch/Militia Hoplite upkeep per unit - 100 per man - 1.25
Equites upkeep per unit - 110 per man - 2.037
Macedonian Cavalry/Light Lancers upkeep per unit - 140 per man - 2.59

Many of the other units follow these amounts, light infantry being around 170, light cavalry being in the region of 120-140 and militia being 100. Now, to repeat myself a THIRD time, how is that balanced? Why on earth is cavalry cheaper to maintain than light infantry? It is just as easy to get too. Not to mention that cavalry has a much larger move on the campaign map too. Elephants ar every strong too. They are not overpowered I believe because of their very high cost. Now I will say it again, this time even in a new paragraph so you get the point

relative to cost, cavalry is easily the most effective units in the game. They need to be more expensive.

I had a battle last night against the Macedonians. The Macedonians had two armies mainly of hoplites and lancers.

I have 4 units of Triarii, 8 units of Principes, three units of archers, and the rest my own cavalry. I lots that battle (mainly to the damn hoplites) and completely eliminated ALL his cavarly.

My 4 units of Triarii that successfully defeated around 10 units of Lancers and other assorted cavalry and still lived to see another day. The computer even charged withdrew charged withdrew, and used some very clever tactics to lure my Triarii out into the open. Hell some of them did get draw out and surrounded and they still routed his cavalry.
These were FRESH Triarii too that had never seen battle.

You seem to be making your entire basis on the fact that cavalry are overpowered against "swords". This is true, but against Triarii and Aux Spearmen in my experiances they get slaughted.
I wish you could record single player replays because I have plenty of them now of Triarii destroying hordes of Macedonian cavalry.
I dont know what the upkeep of Triarii is (I imagine its quite high) but a 4:10 ratio is OK in my books.

Equites suck by the way, they get slaughtered by a warband in a 1v1.

[Kraxis]

I know this is probably moot, but what about an MP battle?

List here what you normally do and do it against each other.

So far it sounds like the cavalrypeople claim they can carry everything before them, frontally, flanking, whatever...
Spearpeople claim that is not possible.
(please stop me if I have jumped to conclusions)

Well, what about a test? And cheating is very counterproductive here, can't make a point if you change the parameters.
I can understand if someone is inexperienced in MP and might not believe he has a chance, but again this isn't about skill but rather situations.

[Morindin]

Good idea Kraxis

Using the paper-scissors-rock system:

I bet a full army of Triarii will beat a full army of anything cavalry, including Elephants.

I have a feeling (but do not bet) an army of 14 Triarii and 6 Aux Archers will slaugher cavalry even more, perhaps not elephants however.

I bet a full army of Cavalry will beat a full army of anything non spear, as it should do.

[TheDuck]

You said it brother. I have not fought a single batte -ok, three or four- that last more than a minute once the main forces are engaged. Its like your watching an auto-resolved battle in real-time. I realized people have different playing styles and expectations, but the combat system needs a lot of work.

Infantry speeds seem fine.
Infantry running speeds seem fast.
Ranged units running speed is insane.
I like the cavalry, but agree with the "school of fish" theory. An initial charge on the flank or rear should be devastating, but is too easy to do.
The combat speed/killing has got to be reduced.

Interesting, I've done a lot of custom battles to figure out how things compare in 1v1 slug fests as well as realistic matchups. I find it all depends on how you use your units and the experience level of the AI. Higher exp. higher armor is much tougher, and just head to head typically routing happens much much later.

If you are complaining about it being too easy to flank them, you might have a point, in ancient warfare a successful flank could easily route an entire line due to the lack of an infantry unit's ability to quickly change direction (with the exception of the Romans) (I believe this ability is called 'infantry articulation', but my memory is failing me and I'm not looking at one of my many books on Roman military history). The AI does not properly protect its flanks.. and that is bad bad bad.

That said, if you leave gaps in your front line the AI will mercilessly exploit them (unlike MTW AI), I learned that the hard way the first night playing. Now its 'nice neat lines of hastati' backed by velites and covered by equites/triarii on the wings.

I don't particulary have a complaint against the game at all.. I find it fun and challenging. I'm not an MP player, so that is coloring my judgement.. but I find the difficulties of building + defense and cost of those defense units challenging.. and 1:1 battles vs. factions other than the gauls are not a pushover with affordable units. The gauls are realistically weak in comparison to Roman units. More as I get more experience (First Gaul, then Germania!)

And note.. I'm a big fan of MTW also.. and I agree with some of the responses on that also.. To have 300 soldiers surrounding the general and have him not drop in a few seconds was a little odd to me.. but that not withstanding I adore that game (and have never uninstalled it).

Games have quirks.. they are games after all. And balancing a game for MP is something that ties the best of companies up in knots (Warcraft 3 and Starcraft have gone through extensive cycles that lasted years). Creative Assembly strikes me as a company that cares, so if there are MP problems I'm sure they will be addressed.

Veni Vidi Vici!

[Red Harvest]

Not interested in MP, thanks.

Morindin,

Wow. That is some challenge. You get an army of elite spears to face a human army of cav? LOL. That's big of you. You could easily lose in spite of that. Why? You get to be attacker. No tortoising. You have to take the field.

I've already done this fight on very hard with light cav vs. hoplites. I slaughtered the hoplites with rapid flanks on the end units to get them to rout in 2 or 3 seconds then chase or withdraw depending on proximity of enemy. One unit at a time until they were all gone.

[Morindin]

Well hoplites are slow and require their flanks to be protected. Triarii and Aux spearmen suffer no such issues and tend to go into ragged formation when engaging cavalry anyway.

According to you an army full of cavalry will beat anything. I highly contest that. Tonight I will load up a game and try it against the AI myself.

[Armchair Athlete]

what difficulty are you playing on? I was playing on hard battles/med camp map. Try it on hard battles, the AI is much smarter and this is where cavalry REALLY domiate. And I will also add that I defeated an army of about 1000 gauls (all foot troops) with pretty much just 2 units of long shield cav and generals cav, plus some Iberian Infantry and Twon Watch with barely any casualties. I might start another game as Carthage as try to do it again, then show a replay.

[Morindin]

what difficulty are you playing on? I was playing on hard battles/med camp map. Try it on hard battles, the AI is much smarter and this is where cavalry REALLY domiate. And I will also add that I defeated an army of about 1000 gauls (all foot troops) with pretty much just 2 units of long shield cav and generals cav, plus some Iberian Infantry and Twon Watch with barely any casualties. I might start another game as Carthage as try to do it again, then show a replay.

Im playing on Hard/Hard and yes the AI is very effective with its cavalry and even protecting its flanks a lot of the times.
Numerous occasions ive sent out cavalry on the flanks only to have to pull them back because the AI sent out infantry to intercept them, wheeling its infantry around to face the bulk of my main force at the last moment.

Of course after the battle is joined you can usually get your cavalry around the flanks and cause some damage.

The Gauls are easy, dont use them as any form of benchmark for anything. :)