The Greek Cities

[Watchman]

I haven't yet tried a Greek campaign, but there's somehting that puzzles me slightly - not counting what can be done with mercs, isn't the basic Greek unit lineup sort of disadvantaged against just about all of the phalanx-users in their immediate vicinity ? I mean, not a single one of the Greek phalanx units has pikes (or "very long spears", as the unit cards call them), whereas Macedon, Pontus and if I recall correctly Thracia get those for about everything above the in any case virtually useless Militia Hoplites - and by what I've seen of it in other campaigns longer pikes tend to seriously rip apart shorter ones. Moreover, as the Greek cavalry selection is about the single most unimpressive in the whole game (unless you edit them an ability to train Macedonian Cavalry - they've got the skins and all for it already) and effective foot flankers being limited to Heavy Peltasts, outflanking the enemy phalanxes would appear something of a challenge assuming the AI has any idea at all of what it's doing (which, granted, it often doesn't)...

Just kind of wondering how people work around this issue. More mercenaries than you can shake a stick at ?

[BalkanTourist]

I play N/N so maybe that's why, but I find the Greeks very easy. You take care of Macedon by turn 5, so you don't have to worry about pikes. Thrace and Pontus get pikes later on, so no problem there either. Only problem is the German spears. Fortunately I didn't have to fight the Germans in my Greek campaign.
The backbone of any Greek army would have to be Armored hoplites. Spartans are great but by the time I can build them, I am just finishing the campaign, so they don't get to see much action. For some reason Greeks get archers later than Macedons. So my only ranged unit was the peltast. I never even got to where I could get heavy peltast. If you could hire Cretan Archers, get them. Militias are ok in the begining, you just have to use your general more and fight small battles. They will bye you some time to get your general from behind and charge. Once they get some valor they are good and cheap unit, easily replenished. See the problem is when you've won a battle that has depleted your good higher level troops and you've just conquered a settlement, you want to retrain those units and move on to the next province. You can do that with MH because they are the first level troops.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

The Greek problem is not the difficulty of hoplite versus pikeman, it's the lack of good "flanker" infantry and heavy cavalry.

Hoplites are at a disadvantage against pike blocks, but spear on spear battles are actually pretty rare (at least with the AI).

You are far more likely to be trying to hold your line together against a small tsunami of Macedonian Light Lancers -- huge charge bonus -- which the AI will build in quantity. You can usually outmanuever and flank the pike blocks.

Armored Hops are your basic unit, with Mil-hops for garrison (cheap). Peltasts are standard skirmishers, with the Heavy version being slightly better in a hand-to-hand. Archers come late and don't impress. You'll need them for garrison work in any city that might have to defend itself.

Your light cavalry is actually darned good. The Greek cavalry unit fights decently and moves quick, and the Militia cavalry is a good Jav-Cav unit which you can build early. Just remember it's light cavalry -- it will NOT break a line for you. Your only heavy cavalry is your general, however, so crashing lines involves putting a family member in the line of fire -- and they just love to prove their valor by being first to the enemy spears :wall: .

Sadly, the Greeks fight best when they have significant mercs in their forces. You don't have to rent hoplites like all the romans, but some of the others fill the holes in your forces nicely and you are in a great locale for them. Here's a few nearby that work will with the nancy-boys.

Flankers:

Illyrians -- possibly the best merc in the game denari for denari. Missile like peltasts and h-t-h pretty close to Hastati. Line is ragged, but much more dense than peltasts, so they can't be run through the same way. Available all over NW Greece, Illyria, Macedonia, Dacia.

Merc Peltasts -- Actually keep a tight formation, which is useful in set piece fights and can work as a flanker in a pinch. They're only so-so in the h-t-h. Might be used better as a second line lobbing javs over your hoplites. Remember to turn off fire at will as the enemy closes or they will lob javs into the backs of your hoplites instead. Available pretty much everywhere you'll be fighting for the first half century.

Thracians -- a solid but un-inspired light infantry. Reasonably hard hitting, but likely to take losses pretty quickly too. Available all over Greece, Thracia, Macedonia, the islands, Asia, Illyria, and Dacia.

Bastarnae -- same as the Thracians BUT they have 2HP and better morale, so the survivability is much better. Available in Macedonia, Thrace, Dacia, and occasionally Asia.

Cilician Pirates -- peasant formation, but their 2 javelins are armor piercing and they have a high attack value and morale. They'll take losses, but they're fun to use. Surprisngly good wall assault troops. Definitely fun at parties. Available around Tarsus and on Cyprus.

Barbarian Infantry -- your very own rental warband! Not really a good fit with the Greeks, but you can pick them up to do the nasty parts of your siege assaults if you want. Available near Ankara only.

Missiles:

Cretan Archers -- Good morale and have the range of the advanced bowmen (about 45% more than the standard guys). Miserable in h-t-h so keep 'em protected - but you knew that. These guys are very useful to your early, bow-starved armies. Available in Greece (esp Peleponensus), Asia, and the islands. Actually easier to find in Asia than on Crete, go figure.

Rhodian Slingers -- Great range (same as archers), 50% over standard slingers. Huge stamina and hard hitting missile. NOT good for second line firing as their missile are pretty flat trajectory, but good skirmishers. Enemy cavalry LOVES to hunt them to extinction and will do so even if: a) they are so far away from the rest of the battle that you don't see them again, and b) they will smash through the Rhodians and onto your hoplite phalanx positioned just behind without a second thought. Do not expect you slinger unit to stay intact in any battle. Availabe in Asia, the Islands, and sometimes Greece.

Balearic Slingers -- same as the Rhodians, but only available in Sicily and the Western Med.

Cavalry

Sarmatians -- a workmanlike heavy cavalry. They're costly, so you need to use them carefully for a while in order to get them up in experience. Once there, they fill a much needed gap in the Greek order of battle. Available in Dacia, Ankara, and Northern Macedonia.

Barbarian Cav -- a bit better than your greek cavalry, but not much. Their advantage is a dirt cheap upkeep cost. Available in Ankara.

[NeoSpartan]

For Flanking an enemy engaged with my phalanx (which rarely happens to me) I usually use other spearmen that I have in behind the phalanx since the AI usually rents out most the mercs. I just have those spearmen run to the end of the line (of course not in phalanx formation) and charge the enemy with swords. Then, after the initial charge, I order the flanking spearmen into phalanx formation.

In the late game Greek Cav is a piece of S### It will rout when facing any Heavy Cav, Early Legionary Cohort (don't get me started on Pretorian) unless outnumbering the enemy So I only use them to flank when ALL/Most of the enemy units are engaged. Otherwise I reserve them to cutdown routing enemies.

[hellheaven1987]

Oh my god! Greek is really goddish! I just start to play Greek and within 40 turns, I have conquer Macedon and Rome (all Rome factions+Stupid Senate)!

[_Aetius_]

Good Analysis of the Greek army Seamus.

The problem in reality as well as in RTW is the Greeks rarely employed decent numbers of cavalry, the broken, mountainous terrain of Greece (aside from Thessaly principally) there was little land with which to breed significant numbers of horses, which would only have a limited use anyway due to the terrain. Not to mention they cost a fortune, the heart of Greek armies was always the hoplite/phalanx units.

Light infantry didn't rate very highly, even though its value is quite obvious, Archers and Slingers I believe are absolute necessities for all armie especially the Greeks. Lucky for the Greeks they are positioned in a region close to good sources of mercenaries, the Thracians and Bastarnae can provide excellent infantry and I agree Illyrians are fantastic.

In an old Greek campaign I had, due to my inability to cover all of my frontier with native troops I employed as many as 2000 mercenaries to deploy in forts and choke points instead of losing the more valuable Greek troops. The Greeks have access to immense wealth so mercenaries are an expense you can afford, aslong as you merely compliment your native troops and don't outweight them.

[_Aetius_]

Good Analysis of the Greek army Seamus.

The problem in reality as well as in RTW is the Greeks rarely employed decent numbers of cavalry, the broken, mountainous terrain of Greece (aside from Thessaly principally) there was little land with which to breed significant numbers of horses, which would only have a limited use anyway due to the terrain. Not to mention they cost a fortune, the heart of Greek armies was always the hoplite/phalanx units.

Light infantry didn't rate very highly, even though its value is quite obvious, Archers and Slingers I believe are absolute necessities for all armie especially the Greeks. Lucky for the Greeks they are positioned in a region close to good sources of mercenaries, the Thracians and Bastarnae can provide excellent infantry and I agree Illyrians are fantastic.

In an old Greek campaign I had, due to my inability to cover all of my frontier with native troops I employed as many as 2000 mercenaries to deploy in forts and choke points instead of losing the more valuable Greek troops. The Greeks have access to immense wealth so mercenaries are an expense you can afford, aslong as you merely compliment your native troops and don't outweigh them.

[Rome:Total Slayer]

I can't figure out how to read the guide:embarassed:

[Watchman]

I may be missing something here, but the fact you can post in this thread suggest you can read it too right ? Well, the threads are the guides. They're at least in theory full of the hard-won, battle-distilled practical knowledge of different factions and the strategies that allow you to succeed with them. In practice they're cluttered with general yarn and sheer "How I Beat The Game With Faction X" one-upmanship (trust a contributor ~;) ), but that doesn't mean you couldn't learn something useful from such tall tales. :book:

[Rome:Total Slayer]

doesn't Froggbeastegg have a guide too?

[Watchman]

That would be (currently) the topmost sticky in this subforum, yes.

[Petsman]

OK guys. You have covered almost everything.
Just one thing. At the very two turns of the campaign move your ships(Rhodes) to Brutii. There you will find the ships that transer the army to appolonia. If you sunk them then Brutii will take(if they manage to) a LOT of time to get into greece. So you are free to deal with scicy and the eastern front.
Oh , and a question . Does Crete worth anything , i mean is it a priority?

[saxon_maik]

Oh , and a question . Does Crete worth anything , i mean is it a priority?

I find Crete very useful, but to me it's not a very early priority. I usually try to take it after kicking the Macedonians out of Corinth and taking Athens. Crete is a good place for a young family member to turn into a good builder/manager and recruit Cretan archers during the initial building-up of Kydonia. I also tend to put watchtowers at either end of the island to expand my field of view for better ocean control. Once you get the port and subsequent upgrades Crete turns out quite a lot of cash from trading with your cities on mainland Greece. I usually don't bother with higher level military buildings on Crete.

[Pontifex Rex]

IMO, Crete is of value reagardless of the faction played. I usually turn it into an economic province with minimal military forces. It provides the excellent Cretian Archers units, it makes a great ship building center and is pergfectly situated to dominate the central and eastern Mediterranean Sea with naval forces.

If it has not been occupied, go and get it. Just bring some cavalry, the locals have a lot of arrows and the bows to shoot them at you with.

Cheers.

[gardibolt]

Crete is a must-visit spot no matter what you're playing, since it has great trade access and even if you're not at war with whoever holds it you can always pick up some Cretan archer mercs.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Oddly, I feed Cretan archers to be more readily available on the Peleponensus than on Crete (except for the very early game) -- and Crete seems to acquire more Rhodian slingers than does Rhodus. :dizzy2:

Other than that, I have to concur with all of the previous comments about Kydonia being a "cash-cow." Put a moderate guard on it if Macedon is still in the game or the Brutes have all of mainland Greece and are looking for more. Otherwise leave it troop-light and port-heavy. It will make you a mint. Usually needs a governor in the early/early-mid game so that you can slave up the population.

Same holds true for Rhodus and Cyprus as well -- all of the islands can end up with multiple trade routes and make a lot of money.

[Goalie]

I like playing with the Greeks Cities in battle but they are pretty tough in campaign. In battle Spartan Hopilites are amazing at defending. Cretan Archers are great archers to support the phalanxs. They have onagers for artillery. Their huge letdown though is in calvary. Greek calvary just cant cut it later in the game against Campanions, Cappadocians, Catapharacts, and Preatorians. The Greeks are good in battle if you can prevent getting flanked.

[Diurpaneus]

What do you guys think.....when starting a new greek campaign...is it better to abandon Syracusa ? and so to spare the army there and take it someplace else where troops are needed ? or is recommended to stand and resist carthaginians and scipii ?~:confused:

[Bassy]

Hi, im new here and I'll just say Phalaxes are awersome, there much more fun that the romean legions or barbarian warlords because you have to keep them pointing straight.
I decided to hold onto the Greek Silician city, which made my campain a lot harder. It forced me to have battles every two or three turns with a general and the starting units there. I quickly learnt that archers are great in sieges. My geneneral there ended up to have 9 stars, be an infantryman and fraction leader.
Meanwhile the main event in Greece was heating up. The Macidonians quickly proved there worth as allies by attacking my fort in between the mountain pass.
Once the Macidonians attacked it seemed like a free for all with EVERY naighbouring fraction declaring war on me. I am now fighting on four fronts with no allies or trading partners.
I have low amounts of money which means no mecrs or bribery.
I have only taken five settlemeants but lost none. I've gained Bystainzium, Conitrith, Athens and Crete and the Roman Siclian town.
Most of my army is Hopilites and a few Armoured Hoplites. The only place with archers is Silicy.
Pontus, The Seleucid Empire, Macedon, Scythia, All roman fractions are against me.
My navy always seems to lost even with extra troops and ships.

Any suggestions who I should take on or wwhich places to abandon.

[Diurpaneus]

Welcome to the org Bassy~:wave: Enjoy your stay

[Rome:Total Slayer]

Sicily will be a major battleground for many years, but should you take Messana from the Scipii, you will seriously weaken Rome's efforts against you there. The Carthaginian side of the island should also be easily taken after that. (just remember to keep an army away from Etna)


Trai as many assasins as possible to wipe out the Scipii Generals. eventualy they will be destroyed and taking sicily will be no problem.:2thumbsup:

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Negative on the assassins. They're fun, but way to expensive in the context you describe. Save that for later.

You need to develop hold points and then focus on one opponent.

Reduce your Syracusan/Messanan garrisons to whatever minimum you need to hold the cities. Cartha and the Scips will keep trying, but you can keep hammering them down. You need to channel funds to get your home base cleared up.

In Greece, develop Byz as a defensive bastion -- Thrace will keep coming and you can keep killing them, use it as flypaper.

Keep forts in the two passes between Larissa and Athens/Corinth. Use them as a screen to develop a powerful field army.

Your field army should take Thermon as soon as its strong enough. Once you have Thermon, you can develop it as a bastion against the Brutii, who will then obligingly kill themselves on your walls.

Pergamum is also a must-hold, but don't try to attack out of there yet. Keep it for the economy.

If you can spare forces and it is still rebel, have the Rhodians acquire Halicarnassus -- good money there. Money is important since you need archers to thin out the phalanxes that will come against your hoplites.

Focus on building one very powerful field force and the replacements to keep it in the field and garrison its conquests quickly. When ready, head for Macedon and keep going until you have Bylazora. Then you can consolidate and choose a new strategic goal.

General thoughts: Build your ports and trade-spots, Greece can be rich (and needs to be since it has to purchase/rent all of its best missile troops, flankers, and heavy cavalry).

Disband your navy. While fighting multiple enemies, they will hammer your fleets in succession while ignoring other opponents. You are simply throwing money away. Don't bother with a navy until you can find a relatively quiet place to build a full stack of triremes. Then and only then venture out. yes, I know Greece is supposed to be a naval power, but you simply can't outbuild the ship-happy AI. Moreover, the AI will sit around not fighting -- even when at war -- unless your ships hove into view, in which case they will be hunted across half the Med.

[Telys]

I perferred abandoning certain settlements or a complete relocation. this way i am able by myself alittle time to build an army reclaim the lost settlements and gain some more on the way.

[Kralizec]

Once you're 5 years into the game, you should easily be able to afford the upkeep of a couple of assasins.
The trick is not to build masses of them, but to have 5-10 of them and train their experience. Target diplomats and enemy captains as both are usually easy to assasinate. Generally I don't bother with targets that give less then 80% chance on succes, because he might end up dead while you've paid so much attention in training his experience.
It shouldn't be long before you have a couple that can take on low-end family members, and better ones after that. Be careful though, if you fail the family member will become more resistant to assasination.
Also, use them along with spies. Use spies to infiltrate settlements and reveal all buildings and also lower public order. Then have the assasins destroy buildings that provide law, happiness or health bonuses.

Assasins and spies are fun :2thumbsup:

You should aim to keep Syracuse. It's a big city and money maker. Just build a healthy supply of militia hoplites, supported by a few peltasts maybe. Neither the Scipii or Carthage will use any phalanx units against you on Sicily, so if you manage them well your militia hoplites should hold the line for you (beware of that one unit of elephants though). Once you beat off the first few attacks it should be a walk in the park, and you can start preparing to take the rest of the island.
IIRC Athens is a rebel city at the beginning, taking it should be easy. Their garrison consists mainly of militia hoplites wich are terrible at defending walls, so build 2 siege towers and take it.

About the navy:
like Seamus said you can't outbuild the AI when it comes to ships, but it certainly does pay to keep a few triremes or better around. Greece can be a merchantile stronghold, but for that you have to ensure your ports don't get blockaded all the time. Just avoid confrontations at sea unless you have a comfortable advantage in numbers. Tip: if navies are stationed INSIDE the confines of a port, they can't be attacked!

[NeoSpartan]

I totally agree with the advice that has been given so far, as a matter of fact I could have used some of it when I started my Greek campain. But I would like to add a piece of advide that will really come helpfull, specially in the late game when you end up facing Pretorian Cohorts and Urban Cohorts.

-Have you noticed that when you put your hoplites in "Single Line" the units have small gaps in between them?? These gaps when you face a strong infantry are fatal! Because little by little enemy infatry starts to get between those gaps and eat up you phalanxes on the sides. (Happened to me when I faced the Julii on VH/VH)

-To avoid this, when you are lining up your forces before the battle, put you hoplites right next to eachother.

-Then put those hoplites into a Group, undo the group and put them into a group again. That way when you want your hoplites to advance, they won't break the formation.

Good luck in your Campain :2thumbsup:

[Kralizec]

-Have you noticed that when you put your hoplites in "Single Line" the units have small gaps in between them?? These gaps when you face a strong infantry are fatal! Because little by little enemy infatry starts to get between those gaps and eat up you phalanxes on the sides. (Happened to me when I faced the Julii on VH/VH)

I had totally forgotten about that. It's been a long time since I played vanilla RTW, I only play mods now (RTR and EB)

It's possible to do some simple text editing so that the game automaticly deploys phalanxes without gaps. Saves you the trouble.

[kburkert]

I always put loads of men on the sicilly. And concentrate on the east and greece.

[Rome:Total Slayer]

I found that even with a small number of troops in a settlement a large roman or cartaginian army can be defeated. Early in the game the romans and the carthaginians will attack your forces in syracuse. you need to build up an army as quick as possilble preferably hoplites. 9 or 10 units will do if combined with a few peltasts. First off let them take the walls hoplites were not desighn to fight on walls. Move all of your troops to the sqare and then march two or three units of hops. into the streets then form up in Phalanx formation. and let them come. If you had the cance to train some peltasts move them behind your phalaxes to loosen up the enemy before the charge headlong into your phalanx. they will kepp charging until their is oly a few men left it worked all the time for me.

[Rome:Total Slayer]

[QUOTE=Seamus Fermanagh]Negative on the assassins. They're fun, but way to expensive in the context you describe. Save that for later.

Your rigt but training one and killing lots of captins will raise the chance of killing a general which greatly increses subterfuge. I actually destroyed the Scippii using assassins. taking the rest of the Island was no problem. But the income was not very much if at all.:no:

[Alexanderofmacedon]

Its very simple to play as the Greeks. I usually pull out of Syracuse all together and focus on Macedon, but that's just me...:dizzy2:

[Kralizec]

Negative on the assassins. They're fun, but way to expensive in the context you describe. Save that for later.

Your rigt but training one and killing lots of captins will raise the chance of killing a general which greatly increses subterfuge. I actually destroyed the Scippii using assassins. taking the rest of the Island was no problem. But the income was not very much if at all.:no:

That's probably because you're hostile to all the Roman factions plus Carthage. Otherwise those Sicilian settlements would have good incomes from naval trade.

[Telys]

Its very simple to play as the Greeks. I usually pull out of Syracuse all together and focus on Macedon, but that's just me...:dizzy2:
I usually do the same thing, but sometimes I'll pull out of pergamum too, to avoid war with pontus while I concentrate on the greek mainland.

[saxon_maik]

I usually do the same thing, but sometimes I'll pull out of pergamum too, to avoid war with pontus while I concentrate on the greek mainland.

I tend to keep Pergamum for the trade with mainland Greece. Even a small garrison of hoplites and Cretan archers is sufficient to hold off large Pontic stacks - that is, if you don't mind fighting the battles yourself.

Last time I played the Greeks I decided to hang on to Syracuse and upgrade the barracks as fast as possible. I barely defeated the full Scipii stack that assaulted Syracuse. The Scipii losses were too costly and they decided to go after the easier(?) target of Lilybaeum, leaving Messana with a minimal garrison. I took Messana in the same turn as they took Lilybaeum from the Carthaginians. Needless to say, Lilybaeum fell a few turns later, leaving all of Sicily under Greek control. Best of all: no war with the Carthaginians and plenty of income by trading with them - at least for a while.

The Scipii did not give up on Carthage: they eventually took Caralis and Palma and then mustered enough forces to take Carthage and Thapsus. So much for Carthaginian military prowess...

[Garvanko]

Greeks are probably the easiest faction to play.

Armoured hoplites may be your bread and butter unit for most of the game, but they are superb nonetheless. And they look cool.

Abandoning Syracuse is a good strategy if you wish to avoid war with the Romans straightaway.

[Rome:Total Slayer]

That's probably because you're hostile to all the Roman factions plus Carthage. Otherwise those Sicilian settlements would have good incomes from naval trade.

Very true but the Carthaginians are wanting theyre part of the Island back and we just got to nutral:no:

[Rome:Total Slayer]

building upahuge navy is extremely important it allows you to control were the enemy ships land. I usually build up two massive navys and then send one over to sicily to control the roman fleets.

[Alexanderofmacedon]

LMAO! I just started a Greek campaign and played for a while. I pulled out of Greece completely with every single unit from every town. I pulled out of Pergamum and Syracuse too. Then I took all troops and put them on boats and took them to Egypt. Then I unloaded all my troops and took over like 4 settlements in Egypt. It's my new home now! Funniest thing is those idiot Macedonians haven't taken the empty settlements yet.:laugh4:

[Glaucus]

rofl

[Craterus]

LMAO! I just started a Greek campaign and played for a while. I pulled out of Greece completely with every single unit from every town. I pulled out of Pergamum and Syracuse too. Then I took all troops and put them on boats and took them to Egypt. Then I unloaded all my troops and took over like 4 settlements in Egypt. It's my new home now! Funniest thing is those idiot Macedonians haven't taken the empty settlements yet.:laugh4:

The Macedonians aren't the idiots; the AI is.

[Alexanderofmacedon]

The Macedonians aren't the idiots; the AI is.

Yeah, yeah, smarty pants...

[Tellos Athenaios]

I've played the Greeks a few times, and I'd recommend: play defensive in Sicily (a fleet to intercept those Romans coming from Italy is absolutely a devastating weapon against their agressive expansion), take Corinth before the Macedonians have properly realised what's going on.

In my game a Macedonian diplomat would come to me and ask for a Ceasefire. I accepted and offered them trade rights too - it gave me time, cash and free men to save myself from Rome. After several failed attempts to take Syracuse, the Scipii had only a few units left in Messana. They had also tried to kick Carthage off the island without much succes, but they had managed to finish of most of the Carthaginians - including their elephants.

So... Sicily became an easy taking after, say, 10 turns of patience, army build up and closely manage the battles.

From then: I had basically won the game. (The rest was just about the right place, the right time)

[NeoSpartan]

IF you want to keep Syracuse go ahead. After defeding that city 2 times every turn I got tired of it, I abanoded it, and focused of beating Macedon, Pontus, Selunids.
I felt staying in Syracuse was wasting the little time I have to play.

[Avicenna]

A fleet and taking of one settlement is all that is required for keeping Syracuse.

If you're short of time, just auto resolve.

[gardibolt]

Personally, I like fighting defensive battles; offensive ones are too easy since the AI just sits there and takes it.

[Garvanko]

Syracuse?

Leave it. Keep the Romans off your back for a few years, consolidate and expand into Greece and Asia Minor, wait about 30 turns or so, then bitz Sicily while the Scipii are busy in Africa. It will be easy to take, and the AI will have done alot of the ground work in developing the cities.

Then use it as a staging ground for you eventual conquest of Italy.

[limitedwhole]

Although I have never played the Greek cities personally, abandoning Syracuse sounds like a really bad idea. It has GRAIN... It will grow your cities...expand your tax base...allow you to recruit more troops without keeping your cities small...and build better buildings earlier in the game. Grain the MOST IMPORTANT RESOURCE in the game and you start sitting right on it. I would never abandon this city. Not only does it prevent you from reaping the benefits of the grain but it will allow th scipii and most likely the brutii as well to grow off it. Try making an alliance with the scipii early to get them to attack Carthage. Hopefully they will bloody each other leaving the rest of the island for the taking.

[Tellos Athenaios]

[QUOTE=limitedwhole]Try making an alliance with the scipii early to get them to attack Carthage. QUOTE]

There are basically three reasons why that isn't going to work very well.
First is that the Scipii are extremely hostile towards you, because that's predefined in the strat.txt file. Second: the (in early stage) 'almighty' senate will send them after you anyway, because they are extremely hostile towards you too. Third if it worked, then, after an unknown number of turns, you would still find yourself in the firing line - this time because the Punic War is initially fought on Sicily - and that war needs to be funded somehow.

And even if all this doesn't apply - you're still not sure about the Brutii. The Brutii will probably attack you either in the Greek mainland, or on Sicily (yes, they also seem to like the great swimming pool the sea in front of my Sicilian coast has become). And Carthage doesn't just sit around - waiting for the Romans to slaughter them - it also would welcome an extra province on Sicily.

Thus the Greeks can enjoy the full attention of basically all the peoples on their borders.

[gardibolt]

Although I have never played the Greek cities personally, abandoning Syracuse sounds like a really bad idea. It has GRAIN... It will grow your cities...expand your tax base...allow you to recruit more troops without keeping your cities small...and build better buildings earlier in the game. Grain the MOST IMPORTANT RESOURCE in the game and you start sitting right on it. I would never abandon this city. Not only does it prevent you from reaping the benefits of the grain but it will allow th scipii and most likely the brutii as well to grow off it. Try making an alliance with the scipii early to get them to attack Carthage. Hopefully they will bloody each other leaving the rest of the island for the taking.

Yeah, I would never, ever intentionally abandon any province, least of all one on an island with natural resources. You would be cutting your income at a time when you need it most.

Alliances with Scipii are next to impossible; even if you got one it wouldn't last. Your best bet is not instigating hostilities, building up Syracuse to be a less-tempting target than the other two cities, and hope they duke it out to the point that they can fall beneath your heel.

[limitedwhole]

[QUOTE=limitedwhole]Try making an alliance with the scipii early to get them to attack Carthage. QUOTE]

There are basically three reasons why that isn't going to work very well.
First is that the Scipii are extremely hostile towards you, because that's predefined in the strat.txt file. Second: the (in early stage) 'almighty' senate will send them after you anyway, because they are extremely hostile towards you too. Third if it worked, then, after an unknown number of turns, you would still find yourself in the firing line - this time because the Punic War is initially fought on Sicily - and that war needs to be funded somehow.

And even if all this doesn't apply - you're still not sure about the Brutii. The Brutii will probably attack you either in the Greek mainland, or on Sicily (yes, they also seem to like the great swimming pool the sea in front of my Sicilian coast has become). And Carthage doesn't just sit around - waiting for the Romans to slaughter them - it also would welcome an extra province on Sicily.

Thus the Greeks can enjoy the full attention of basically all the peoples on their borders.

First off arguing that EVENTUALLY you will come to be at odds with the romans is not a good reason for not making an alliance. If you get five turns, of not being attacked at Syracuse that will give you the ability to build a fleet at Syracuse, upgrade the ports and markets, and ship reinforcements from Sparta. Just because war will ineveitably happens doesn't mean that breathing room is pointless.

i also find it hard ot belive that you could get not an alliance. And even without paying them. At the worst you might have to put up some map info or a small tribute which would be cancelled if they attack. In fact offering a tribute in exchange for alliance may be teh best option as giving up money which could ufnd their war with Carthage in order ot lose troops at your gates will not be appealing.

Furthermore, the scipii want to go west. Sure maybe Sparta is within reach in the early game, but certainly your territories on the other side of the agean are safe from roman hands until at least turns 10-15. The scipii want to fight Carthage more than they want to fight you.

Finally, even if all this failed, I would still not pull out. I would bloody those bastards as much as possible and hold on to that grain as long as possible. This will give them problems with the Carthagianians and inevitably make it easier for you to retake Syracuse. So if all this failed I would try to get an alliance with the Carthaginians against the Scipii.

Furthermore, with SCyracuse you can produce a crap load of ships (Triremes after turn 3 i might add) right in their realm of control. The scipii cannot put pressure on you if you have naval parrity.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Naval parity with the Scipii is possible, but naval parity with Rome is not.

The AI always has a build advantage, and is programmed to churn fleets. You will be fighting the Scips, SPQR, sometimes the Brutes, and fairly often the Poeni-derms too. Greece cannot build enough ships to match all of these -- though I concur that your fleet can do great good by smashing 1 or 2 fully loaded Roman flotillae prior to getting batted around the Central Med.

I too try to defend Syracuse, and ship over my Spartans to help if I can. If you can fend off the initial Cartha or Roman thrust with a timely sally, you can get some good troops over there (Spartans, stop briefly at Kydonia and get archers/slingers). With a few top notch units added to their start forces, Syracuse can be a rock against which armies will break. Let them come to you and mete out death with missiles from the walls and spears in the streets. Bleed them a while, and Carthage will fade as Caralis falls and the Numidians sweep in from the desert. The Scipii will fade because their two provinces cannot sustain the scope of offensive required -- and unlike the Julii or Bruti they have not picked up new terrain. But DON'T auto-resolve -- you may win but find out that your Spartans must've camped in front of an enemy javelin depot. Auto-resolve casualties will kill your chances.

As to the homeland, you'll need to accept the loss of Thermon -- the Brutes are simply too persistent -- but you can make them pay a good price and buy time to acquire Corinth, Athens, Halicarnassus, and Kydonia. Then fort up the Peleponse and the Attic highlands (and ceasefire with Macedon). You should have the beginnings of a powerful trade zone to defend and improve. Any battle where they have to come at your spears to win gives you the advantage. Once this area starts turning out good profit, you have a good economy, excellent temple bonuses, and one of the better hiring zones for mercs to augment your spears and mediocre cavalry. The beginnings of good things. Now, if only you could bribe some Macedonian cavalry....

[limitedwhole]

While you cannot achieve parrity with all of the romans navally, you can achieve parrity with each individual power. this allows you to make targetted strike on key vessels. The Julii will not send many ships if any at all your way. Rome is unlikely. This leaves you between the scipii and brutii.

1) Naval engagement in teh wets in superior to the romans having free reign to ship troops to the far east.

2) Every ship they build is one less ground unit. The same goes for you, but then again you are on the defensive behind walls.

3) You can build Triremes, superior ships, it is unlikely the romasn will be able to upgrade ports as fast as you.

4) You fleet even after a loss will usually be within range of the docks of Syracuse leading to a safe haven where you can rebuild your losses.

5) The fast growth of Syracuse allows you to replace losses while have a population boom, something the core roman territories are incapable of doing without grain imports.

[Tellos Athenaios]

[QUOTE=Tellos Athenaios]
i also find it hard ot belive that you could get not an alliance. And even without paying them. At the worst you might have to put up some map info or a small tribute which would be cancelled if they attack. In fact offering a tribute in exchange for alliance may be teh best option as giving up money which could ufnd their war with Carthage in order ot lose troops at your gates will not be appealing.

Furthermore, the scipii want to go west. Sure maybe Sparta is within reach in the early game, but certainly your territories on the other side of the agean are safe from roman hands until at least turns 10-15. The scipii want to fight Carthage more than they want to fight you.
If your not convinced yet, the higher the value after your faction's name the more hostile they are towards you - and this is the value you have according to the Scipii and Brutii: 410. And seeing 600 is the max...

Now this wouldn't be so bad if only you happened to be fighting the same enemy, and were located at a convenient distance, well away from them. But you're not, and so you're highly unlikely to get anything from them except trade rights and a declaration of war. Even if you would happily pay up all you can give them...

[limitedwhole]

How is it then that I can get an alliance with the Greeks, MAcedons, Carthingians and Gauls if I want to every game with the brutii? Oh yeah they pay me for it too.

[Tellos Athenaios]

How is it then that I can get an alliance with the Greeks, MAcedons, Carthingians and Gauls if I want to every game with the brutii? Oh yeah they pay me for it too.

These numbers work this way:

[value], [faction with this value], [factions considering it has that value]

There is no number of the Greeks, neither is there a number of the Gauls, nor a number of the Macedon's, nor a number of the Cartaginians defining their attitude towards you. So that gives you a loophole if you are playing the faction that has the attitude, instead of playing the faction that is 'honored' with a value.

These numbers are there to initiate several wars, or to advoid them - basically by defining what faction is going to attack an other faction. For example: the attitude of Roman factions towards other Roman factions is -10 and the attitude of all factions towards slaves is 600.

So you will never see a Roman faction break it's alliance with the other Roman factions in early stages. But you will always notice that factions attack rebel towns near their borders.

One word as to faction relationships, these things work basically the same way as the attitudes - this time however you'll only see the 100, and 600 values.

This section defines what faction is at war with what other faction, and what faction is allied to what other faction at the start of an campaign.

If a faction doesn't honor any other faction with such a number, then the game assumes that this faction is neutral towards all other factions.

So because of all this: as the Brutii or Scipii you can ally yourself to the Gauls, Macedon, the Carthaginians, and the Greeks - but no you can't ally yourself to these Roman factions playing as the Greeks.

(Oh, and by the way: the attitude from the Carthaginians towards the Julii is 400 - so playing as the Julii, you can't ally yourself to Carthage - which is probably to drag the Julii in the Punic Wars too.)

[Lorenzo_H]

The Greek cities aren't very good. I had a city with about 10 units of Militia Hoplites and Hoplites and they got their asses kicked by 4 Hastatii! I understadn spartan Hoplites tear through everything but they are so expensive and aren't availible for a long while. Where does the greek strength lie?

[Craterus]

Hoplites are fairly sturdy, I'm not sure you were using them right.

In sieges, you can use them to defend the gate, and also defend the entrances to the town square. Their spears will keep the Hastati at bay so they can't engage effectively. However, the pilum of the Romans would be very effective at whittling down the number of your hoplites.

[AwesomeArcher]

The Greek cities aren't very good. I had a city with about 10 units of Militia Hoplites and Hoplites and they got their asses kicked by 4 Hastatii! I understadn spartan Hoplites tear through everything but they are so expensive and aren't availible for a long while. Where does the greek strength lie?

What difficulty were you playing on when this happened? What tactics did you use? Hopilites are pretty solid, but militia hopites can crack. However you should have one the battle easily. Once you get hopilites and armoured hopilites and recruit some merc cretan archers you should have little trouble. Yes spartans are expensive, but they are definately worth every denari.

[Lorenzo_H]

What difficulty were you playing on when this happened? What tactics did you use? Hopilites are pretty solid, but militia hopites can crack. However you should have one the battle easily. Once you get hopilites and armoured hopilites and recruit some merc cretan archers you should have little trouble. Yes spartans are expensive, but they are definately worth every denari.
It was medium/medium! i attacked a Scipii General outside of Syracuse and He just waited for me to come out to him and then he charged at my perfectly alligned phalanxes with his bodyguard as well and all my units routed one after another! He also managed to kill my General. I don't understand because I'm not that bad at fighting...

[AwesomeArcher]

It was medium/medium! i attacked a Scipii General outside of Syracuse and He just waited for me to come out to him and then he charged at my perfectly alligned phalanxes with his bodyguard as well and all my units routed one after another! He also managed to kill my General. I don't understand because I'm not that bad at fighting...

Hhmm, did they have a general's body guard unit and 4 hastai? The Generals unit could make it difficult. Did he charge the militia hopilites or the hopilites? He could probably break the militia hopilites with a charge. Also, do you know how many command stars this general had? because they can make a big difference.

[Lorenzo_H]

His general was not very good, I doubt if he had any stars at all. He charged 3 units - 2 of militia hoplites and 1 of hoplites at the same time. Broke them all with the help of 1 hastatii.

[AwesomeArcher]

His general was not very good, I doubt if he had any stars at all. He charged 3 units - 2 of militia hoplites and 1 of hoplites at the same time. Broke them all with the help of 1 hastatii.

hhmm, i dont suppose you have any screen shots of this battle. I dont know then what happened ,sorry.

[Tellos Athenaios]

His general was not very good, I doubt if he had any stars at all. He charged 3 units - 2 of militia hoplites and 1 of hoplites at the same time. Broke them all with the help of 1 hastatii.

Strange...

Some questions for you:

did the general hit your militia's, or your hoplites?
did the hastati hit the side of one of your units?
did the general hit the side of one of your units?
did several hastati end up fighting in the rear of one of your units?

If any of this questions is to be thruthfully answered with: 'yes, that's how it happened' - then your defeat is due to the fact that although hoplites are great when in formation and facing the enemy head on, they are pretty worthless (especially against Romans) when attacked in the side or rear.

Surprisingly as this may seem, but playing this game as the Greek Cities - I've noticed that only a few enemy soldiers (even barbarian warband), say 2 or 3, can be utterly devastating to your unit's size - not to mention morale! It was a lesson, I had to learn the hard way...

Militia hoplite formations can be realatively easily broken by a full charge of heavy cavalry - that might be another explanation.

[Lorenzo_H]

Strange...

Some questions for you:

did the general hit your militia's, or your hoplites?
did the hastati hit the side of one of your units?
did the general hit the side of one of your units?
did several hastati end up fighting in the rear of one of your units?


None of these things happened. It was a tightly closed together formation of 4 units - 2 militia, 2 hoplite. It was a completely head on strike, not a sinle Hastati managed to flank me IIRC. The General with 25 Cavalrymen charged head on to the spears. They broke one after another.

[Lorenzo_H]

hhmm, i dont suppose you have any screen shots of this battle. I dont know then what happened ,sorry.
No sorry.

[Drusus Magnus]

Were they marching when they were charged? That could explain it. Also, don't pack them too tightly. Allow one militia unit to be decimated while you flank with the others. Not even a bodyguard can stand up to militias if there are enough of them.

Militias suck, that's why they're cheap, they cost as much as peasants for upkeep. You can sacrifice them. I get the feeling you were just unlucky. I think the first unit routed when the second was being charged, which then routed due to added morale penalty, two units routed when the third being charged, etc.

Try not to keep your militias to close, although that doesn't mean you gotta have a lot of space between them.

[Devastatin Dave]

If you guys like the Greek cities (which I love), you should really try the Greek Mod. It's wonderful...:2thumbsup:

[AwesomeArcher]

yea it is i downloaded it, the units look awesome.

[Lorenzo_H]

One can only hope "Alexander" will do the helenic armies justice...

[Tellos Athenaios]

XGM is an absolute must-download for all those wanting to get more out of the Greeks' life!

[Monarch]

After an ERE campaign on BI I thought I'd come back to 1.5 for a Greek Cities campaign, I played ERE with no trouble at all on n/n so I jumped into the deep end with the Greek Campaign. Playing on VH campaign and H or VH battles (can't rememember, any way to check?). Need some ideas lol.

I pulled out of Pergannon immediatly so I was less spread out. I then built up Sparta as my main troop producing city, took Athens and then Larissa, so far so good. However Macedon from the north are now striking back and the Bruttii AND the Scipii keep landing, I managed to fight off a large Scipii army from Corinth, the phalanxes are great at defending in city battles, just stick them in entrances to central plaza.

However Brutii have taken Thermon. I'm currently building up Athens as another troops producing city, perhaps with the intention of Sparta's troops defending against Romans and Athens' troops attacking Macedon. I have armoured hoplites but really can't wait to get access to Spartans.

So any tips? My navy is basically non-existant, I'm scared that if I build it up I'll lose my nice steady income.

[Monarch]

After an ERE campaign on BI I thought I'd come back to 1.5 for a Greek Cities campaign, I played ERE with no trouble at all on n/n so I jumped into the deep end with the Greek Campaign. Playing on VH campaign and H or VH battles (can't rememember, any way to check?). Need some ideas lol.

I pulled out of Pergannon immediatly so I was less spread out. I then built up Sparta as my main troop producing city, took Athens and then Larissa, so far so good. However Macedon from the north are now striking back and the Bruttii AND the Scipii keep landing, I managed to fight off a large Scipii army from Corinth, the phalanxes are great at defending in city battles, just stick them in entrances to central plaza.

However Brutii have taken Thermon. I'm currently building up Athens as another troops producing city, perhaps with the intention of Sparta's troops defending against Romans and Athens' troops attacking Macedon. I have armoured hoplites but really can't wait to get access to Spartans.

So any tips? My navy is basically non-existant, I'm scared that if I build it up I'll lose my nice steady income.

[Lorenzo_H]

Awww don't pull out of Pergamum! Its one of your better cities! Fight for it I say! If you must give something up I would give Syracuse up to the Rebels. The Scipii are going to get it sooner or later...

[Monarch]

Awww don't pull out of Pergamum! Its one of your better cities! Fight for it I say! If you must give something up I would give Syracuse up to the Rebels. The Scipii are going to get it sooner or later...

I also pulled out of Syracruse...

But tbh my cash flow allows me to do everything I want to on any given turn, and it'd just be a hassle transporting troops across the Aegean, I couldn't see a need for Pergamum...

[Dominii]

If you're playing as the Greek cities, stick in Syracuse. Even if you have to give everything for peace with the Scipii, start reinforcing Syracuse with peltasts and militia hoplites whilst building a barracks for hoplites. The key to success is to use flaming arrows to defeat the Scipii ram when they eventually assault. If you stick everyone up on the walls and have enough peltasts then they'll wittle down the hastati numbers before they can all make it up onto the walls. From then on it's a simple matter of slugging it out, but with superior numbers you can surround the hastati from both sides, leaving the cavalry and General stuck outside. Then let the timer count down and retrain all your units on the next turn.



If you fail to hold onto Syracuse then you will have the Scipii and Brutii on your ass constantly. Taking Sicily will allow you to stop the Scipii, distract the Brutii as your navy stops their advance and they go to help their comrades, and it'll allow you to take on Macedon relatively undisturbed until you come face to face with the Brutii. But by then you'll have armoured, 3 chevroned armoured hoplites and greek archers, the rest is a walk over as you slowly advance into Italy.


*Note* Take Lilybaeum and then sue for peace from Carthage to give you the whole island, and prepare to defend Perganum as Pontus will sense they're chance when you come under attack from all the Roman factions, Carthage and Macedon.

[Monarch]

If you're playing as the Greek cities, stick in Syracuse. Even if you have to give everything for peace with the Scipii, start reinforcing Syracuse with peltasts and militia hoplites whilst building a barracks for hoplites. The key to success is to use flaming arrows to defeat the Scipii ram when they eventually assault. If you stick everyone up on the walls and have enough peltasts then they'll wittle down the hastati numbers before they can all make it up onto the walls. From then on it's a simple matter of slugging it out, but with superior numbers you can surround the hastati from both sides, leaving the cavalry and General stuck outside. Then let the timer count down and retrain all your units on the next turn.



If you fail to hold onto Syracuse then you will have the Scipii and Brutii on your ass constantly. Taking Sicily will allow you to stop the Scipii, distract the Brutii as your navy stops their advance and they go to help their comrades, and it'll allow you to take on Macedon relatively undisturbed until you come face to face with the Brutii. But by then you'll have armoured, 3 chevroned armoured hoplites and greek archers, the rest is a walk over as you slowly advance into Italy.


*Note* Take Lilybaeum and then sue for peace from Carthage to give you the whole island, and prepare to defend Perganum as Pontus will sense they're chance when you come under attack from all the Roman factions, Carthage and Macedon.

All sounds nice mate, but what campaign difficulty are you on? I was actually "bending the truth before", I didn't pull out of Syracruse, Scipii attacked it within only a few turns, before I could build up the kind of army you suggest. Oh, and a few turns later Scipii went on to take Carthage's Sicilian province.

Also, taking Macedon before I come face to face with Brutti? Lol, Brutii landed a few smallish Velites central armies very quickly, then came the pure hastati armies and now I'm seeing principes. However, I'm still managing to pull off some good victories to keep them at bay. Providing another large Roman force isn't landed (another point, you can't setup a fortified border as Romans always launch amphibious landings, unless its from Thermon), I plan to take back Thermon.

[Dominii]

I'm on H/H or H/VH, I started it a while ago. Sometimes you get lucky and the Scipii wait a few turns before attacking, but if you build up your navies in Greece quickly and wait until Macedon attacks you, pull everything back from Rhodes and buy all the decent mercs there then you can use the navies to blockade and disrupt the Brutii (you wont get the upper hand for a while, but you can stop them landing often this way). If you can manage it, ally with Carthage, if not then when the Scipii send their army to Lilybaeum, attack Messana. Do it the turn after you defeat them at Syracuse and retrain your units, and start sending up Hoplites as soon as they're produced.


With a lot of luck and some patience to wait for the Macedonians to attack, you can easily defeat them all.

It also helps if you move some units to the coastal pass north of Thermon as it'll delay the Brutii if you have a full stack lead by a family member sitting there waiting (the AI doesnt seem to like attacking me when my armies are full of phalanxes). I guess I just got lucky as the Brutii declared war on Macedon, the Dacians declared war on them as well and kept them busy whilst i worked my way up through Greece to Bylazora.


The key points are to hold Syracuse so you can pre-occupy the Scipii and then take Messana, and to train more ships than units to begin with so you can choke the Brutii with constant harrassment and blockades.

[Andejar]

The easiest way to start the greek campaign is to hold your ground. In your settlement don't get stone walls because you won't have any decent archers to defend them. Once someone attacks corner them in with hoplites in a phalanx. Once you win few battles pick a time and when they lose catch them on the and kill them.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

The easiest way to start the greek campaign is to hold your ground. In your settlement don't get stone walls because you won't have any decent archers to defend them. Once someone attacks corner them in with hoplites in a phalanx. Once you win few battles pick a time and when they lose catch them on the and kill them.

I agree with your basic point. Defend it all. After all, the early-game Greeks are way better at defense then attack -- Mil-hops running down cavalry or archers is a recipe for destruction, but the cavalry trying to run you down will get hurt.


Use your sicilian diplomat to make whatever deals he can with the Scips and the Carthaginians. They'll break them and attack you, but squeeze every drachmae you can first. Be very careful with your troops -- they have to sortie and rout or defend staunchly and fend off the bad guys until turn 10 or so until reinforcements arrive.

Macedon will reach Athens first, so send a diplomat in to buy their besieging army and then take Athens for yourself. It has a stone wall at start, so missile troops are a good bet for the defense.

Sparta, which can pump out semi-decent hoplites fairly early, will give up some of its garrison to help Syracuse, but will then position itself to take Corinth. Do NOT build walls at Sparta until you are ready to build up to stone wall level in 6 straight turns -- they're better off using spears at the square until then. This is often true of any barb settlement you occupy, providing that you can garrison it with decent hoplites and a cavalry unit from the get go.

Pergamon and Rhodes should build defensively, acquire trade with the Seleucids, and try to acquire Nicomedia and Halicarnassus once the cities themselves are stabilized a bit.

I usually send both boats out, often as early as turn 2, that has my faction leader, the Spartan unit, a diplomat (built on turn 1 in Sparta), and any Cretans available on the Peleponese.

1st stop = Kydonia. Land on Crete, buy the town, buy the rebels in the hills, recruit any archers or slingers. Recruit a Merc peltast or two.

2nd stop = Italy. Drop off your diplomat and keep going. You might have time to raid Croton (take, enslave, raze) if the Brutes have forgotten to garrison it or something, but don't take any big risks.

Picking up slaves in the early game is your best bet -- Sparta needs the warm bodies to keep pumping out pezhat's.

3rd stop = Sicily. Leave a peltast or two as garrison on Crete and take a force of Cretans, the Spartans, your Faction Leader (if not already dead) and head for Sicily. Transport should be doable as the Romans haven't had time to build up their fleets yet.

Remember, Syracuse starts with Stone walls and the addition of 2-3 units of Cretans and the Spartans makes it extremely tough to take in the early game. With a little wise sortie work, you can make Syracuse an abbatoir for the Scipii and the Carthae.

This lets you concentrate on Greece for a while -- which you'll need to do to keep the Brutii from killing you. Macedon is a good early ally -- good for trade -- but will betray you shortly after the Brutii hammer you in Thermon. Set Thermon up to defend itself and prepare your forces to take Corinth and Larissa in quick succession.


Build judiciously, sell maps like mad and once your port revenues kick in you should be set to build power steadily.

[BlorkTheImpaler]

Umm ok heres my question. I was playing the greeks in a battle and i hit F1 just to change the controls. After i flipped between the FPS and the total war step up i stoped being able to pan up and down with the camera. So i quit the battle and tried to bind the + and - keys to be the panning camera keys but it still didnt work. All that would happen is that the camera would move away from the ground and towards it. Also now when i move the camera it follows the curves of the ground, panning down when on a hill and opposite if in a ridge. How can i turn this off? and.. it works fine on my BI battles. Please help, This is killing me!

Blork.

[Andejar]

i think you can fix it by going to game options in the pause menu, changing the camera, un pause it, immediately re pause it and change the camera back. that should fix it

[BlorkTheImpaler]

Let me try that..

[Tellos Athenaios]

It's not really important having Syracuse, for as far as I can see, but it's tremendously important Syracuse isn't lost to some Roman faction. There is basically one reason for this: as long as the Romans don't have the place they'll keep coming, till they are utterly bankrupted.

As a Greek faction you don't really need your navy to impoverish your opponent, just stick to what you've got and don't give up will do just as fine or even better.

Later on in the game, I always find the Greek economy to be much more self supportive, than any other faction's - seemingly everything economy based (such as naval trade) performs better when it's controlled by the Greeks.

On the topic of naval dominance: if you spot a Roman, or indeed any enemy, fleet check wheter or not it carry's an army onboard. If so destroy it, if not don't. This will allow you to save your ships, while achieving the same results.

*Note: I strongly suspect the Greeks get bonuses in naval battles, for how else could I be able to defeat much larger or better equiped enemies at sea with only a few ships, continuously throuhout the whole game, even the relatively strong pirates of the North Sea? And how could it be that this only happens playing as the Greeks, while, say, playing as the Romans I need a much larger navvy (recently a 36 ships pirate fleet swept my entire Scipii navy in the North Sea consisting of about 60 ships away :help:)?*

[Kralizec]

A likely explanation is that you played the Scipii on a higher campaign difficulty. Campaign difficulty has a huge effect on how auto calc battles turn out.

[whtdoesitmatta]

Greek was very easy, I play on M/M because I sim most of my battles, and I am not that good, I had an easier time with the greeks than brutti, or juli.

First turn, I sacked Corinth(Army from Sparta), and moved that same army and sieged athens.
I Also Sent Thermon's army to Larissa, next turn picked up Athens and sieged Larissa, sent Army of new troops to Athens, sents Athens troops to help at Larissa. Then picked that up once I had the advantage in numbers and skill.

After getting Larissa, I looked at syracuse, Messana had started its army towards lily, and I went after Messana, they came back and defened, but I eventually threw enough units to win it.

Also Bribing is another important thing. I bribe away all armies without generals, because owning the Aegean brings in so much cash. scipi and Juli then went for Lily, which I went bought away their armies, sacked it myself, and now own sicily.

I also have defeated the Macedonians, going up to byzlora sp? and taken over nicamedia(PONTUS), Bought Byzantium and Halicarnus, sacked Kydonia, 3 armoured hoplites, took over sardis, and am headed towards my wrap around the black sea, first taking out thrace, then moving around Scythia. Currently have Dacia, Gauls, Scythia, and Germania as my allies, and Macedonia(dead), All Romans, Selecuid, Pontus, Rebel, Thrace, and Carthage against me.

Fun Fun!

[Patriarch of Constantinople]

I tend to hold syracuse in order to make sure the scipii dont advance. i also take apollonia so the brutii dont expand. When i take those two, the Brutii and Scipii sit at their capitols doing nothing. Ive been having alot of trouble regaining the Greek mainland. Its normally a regular pushing contest with macedon. They dont have Companion Cavalry they just use phalanxes. I keep managing to push them back but then get pushed back by Macedon and Thrace. I keep attacking and funding the war. Ive secured an aliiance with Carthage and Pontus securing my sicilian border and my turkish border. I have complete control of the Agean Sea my fleets are stronger than my neighbors and a secured Agean has helped fund the war in the greek mainland. Any tips on how to defeat macedon in VH/VH?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Trap 'em.

They often field armies with lots of Lancers, a goodly number of phalangites, and little else.

Put yourself in a position where the map says they'll have to attack uphill.

Make sure you are numerically a little weaker than the Macs.

Set up as far back as possible and uphill. Spears in front and archers behind and above (cretans pref). Position two slinger/peltast groups in front of the spears (but close onto them -- NOT on skirmish). Have 1 or 2 mil-cav stationed near the front of the deployment area.

When battle opens, entice his plentiful light cav into chasing your mil-cav. You want them running early so as to leave his phalanx boys in the dust. Race back to your line and behind it, drawing the lancers into their favorite kind of charge -- hammering peltasts.

Shoot with the bows, but put them on "no fire" as the 1st peltast javelins get launched. Be careful, as your peltasts may not fire because the lancers charge to fast -- but keep the distance in mind so as to not kill your own.

As the charge hits home on your peltasts and into the spears, pause and have all the hoplites attack the lancers. Once the lancers break, halt them and do not let them chase. Reform phalanx.

Turn archers to fire at will and let them give the lancers a send-off.

Lancers should be down 40-80% in numbers, and some of them will route off and not reform.

This should allow you a lot of time to shoot at the oncoming sarissa-sissies, and to use your mil-cav to catanbrian their flank unit on each side. Remember to take the bows of fire at will as they close to minimize fratricide, but you should be able to select target their laggards or the reformed lancers as they come forward.

Should have heavy casualties among the Macs, especially the Levy pike formations, and flankers striking them as they go spear to spear with your line should do the trick.

Mop up as normal.

[Severous]

Here is a link to a picture based Greek campaign in progress. Macedon has long gone but the early posts will show how we played...on both campaign and battle maps.
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=55186

Edit: It takes a short while to load due to pictures.

[Tellos Athenaios]

@Kralizec: not in this case.

@Hannibal99: check the state of your city defense structures. Greeks don't like fighting on walls for example, but they don't mind fighting in the streets. A battering ram can be set on fire with some archer units for example. Likewise Greeks don't like fighting in forests but don't mind fighting on a steep slope as long as they are the defenders. Greeks love to defend what's theirs, their whole army is based on that single factor (just ask Xerxes, if you don't get me). It would be preferable design your strategy with these facts in mind, and to do so: make sure you have some armies to attack any agressors in the back as soon as they lay siege upon your settlements, have always some archer units in your settlements, use your economy to finance mercenary units and stay away from forests! Oh, and whenever possible fight people with armies much the same as yours: (heavy infantry, little cavalry, not to much of an archery or artillery present), yours are not exactly the fastest forces on the planet. And most important of all enjoy!

[Seamus Fermanagh]

@Kralizec: not in this case.

@Hannibal99: check the state of your city defense structures. Greeks don't like fighting on walls for example, but they don't mind fighting in the streets. A battering ram can be set on fire with some archer units for example. Likewise Greeks don't like fighting in forests but don't mind fighting on a steep slope as long as they are the defenders. Greeks love to defend what's theirs, their whole army is based on that single factor (just ask Xerxes, if you don't get me). It would be preferable design your strategy with these facts in mind, and to do so: make sure you have some armies to attack any agressors in the back as soon as they lay siege upon your settlements, have always some archer units in your settlements, use your economy to finance mercenary units and stay away from forests! Oh, and whenever possible fight people with armies much the same as yours: (heavy infantry, little cavalry, not to much of an archery or artillery present), yours are not exactly the fastest forces on the planet. And most important of all enjoy!

Agreed. Use the Von Moltke approach -- rush your army to a position that is vital to them and make them attack you there. Combines the strategic advantages of the offensive with the tactical (esp. important for spear warriors) advantages of the defensive.

[whtdoesitmatta]

Yeah I can hold of most wooden wall and sieges, as long as I have a decent amout of spears, could be miltia hoplites, It is so hard to get around them...

and seeing as the computer won't sit there and shoot arrows at you all day, just take the first few rounds then your set.

[supersalsa]

I always make a point of not destroying the enemy rams whilst I'm the greeks. What i usually do is just have bout 4 archers on the walls and 3 hoplites on the ground (can be any type of hoplite). In the positioning stage at start of battle I put the 3 groups of hoplites just behind my gate in phalax formation. and 3 should b in a crescent moon formation. I let them knock down my gate. Once the gate gets knocked down every enemy all just charge 4 it. Its always a slaughter as they cant get past the spears but they getting pushed into the spears from their people behind them. I get my archers to fire ignited arrows into the centre of the huge mass of the enemy. The arrows do the most damage whilst the hoplites keep em still. :laugh4:

Another tactic I found good was if you have about 6 hoplites and your up against all all infantry and cavalry army then put the hoplites in a circle with the spears pointing outwards. Using just six hoplites I've slaughtered thousands of cavalry infantry in this way. It not a good idea however if the enemy has archers because they all focus on one unit and once there is a weak point it is easy for the enemy to get in and once they in it havoc as hoplites dont do well once attacked from the flank or rear.

[Tellos Athenaios]

I always make a point of not destroying the enemy rams whilst I'm the greeks.

I advised to set fire to the rams because this strategy allows you to defeat large assaulting AI armies with few garisson troops present.

Walls aren't the Greeks best friends, since when the AI come's up with an hughe invasion force they will most likely include some rams and ladders too: and that's where things might start to go all wrong. Greek armies are for some reason very very bad at fighting on walls, fighting on walls is a sure way to loose the battle against most factions. And by building walls you provide the AI with the possibility to attack the hoplites in the back (the AI doesn't have to go for your troops, I've noticed that it sometimes does try and find ways to sneak around my forces) and from then on it is pretty much a Clear Defeat.

To draw conclusions:
1 Whenever you can't afford yourself much of an garisson, then don't and don't build walls.
2 Whenever you do, be sure to try the supersalsa approach: it's far better to slaughter your ennemies than force them to go away but relatively unharmed. (They will keep roaming your lands and keep pillaging)
3 Always have some archers as garrison, they are one of the cheapest unit's available, are capable to hold off much larger enemy forces, have a decent size to keep up public order rates, and in both approaches fulfill a critical task.

And as allways: keep your hoplites with their noses pointed towards the enemy. :2thumbsup:

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Hmmm. I've found the Greeks reasonably effective in fighting on the walls.

I don't tend to defend wooden walls -- though if they are using only 2-3 rams and I have 3-4 archers I might flame out all but the one headed for the gate so that my spears can "greet them" -- as spears do better in streets than on the interior ring road.

The key to any Greek stone wall plus defense is to sally with peltasts/mil cav. The enemy will often come after them and straight under the firepower of your towers and bowmen. You'll lose a fair number, but should kill many more. 1 or 2 such "draws" and the they'll retreat or the subsequent assault will be doomed.

In assault, put the hoplites to pushing the towers and flank with light troops on the ladders. Select your spots carefully to avoid fire and you can often engage his wall troops in one spot while your light troops take the rest of the wall -- and open other gates for the remaining troops.

[Roman_Man#3]

hey, downloaded and installed XGM. amazing mod.

anyway, off the start, macedon has alot of troop and is aggressive. they put me on the defensive for a while, and when their attacks slowd, i went on the offensive. i attacked larissa with about 1/2 stack, and a full stack of macedons attacked me. the garrison of of larissa came as reinforcemnts, namely phalangites being led by an 8 star general or something called antigonos. i deployed in a wheat field, which was a stupid idea cuz i couldnt see my troops, but i still won. anyway, i went on to kill antigonos and left their army of + 700 at about 200. pretty fun. only git a clear victory though.
still whipped them.





victory!!

[dzzirt]

Sorry for newbish question, but how do i build my own (non mercs) cretan archers? Already upgraded my archery range to level where i can create onagers, but still only normal archers can be built :(

BTW any guide / tool on the web that shows what buildings are required to get units?

[saxon_maik]

AFAIK, the Greek Cities do not get any higher level archers. I keep recruiting the mercenaries by making sure to have family members in the right places (Rhodes, Kydonia, Pergamum and mainland Greece, of course).

Since you already upgraded your archery range this far you might want to give heavy peltasts a try. I use them to flank enemies pinned down by my hoplites.

Try the building browser when you pull up the settlement details. The button should be near the obnoxious Victoria... Right-clicking on a military structure should let you know what troops can be recruited.






Sorry for newbish question, but how do i build my own (non mercs) cretan archers? Already upgraded my archery range to level where i can create onagers, but still only normal archers can be built :(

BTW any guide / tool on the web that shows what buildings are required to get units?

[Roman_Man#3]

its true, the greeks cannot build cretan archers. you can make them recruitable by the greeks, but i dont remember how off hand.

[Guyus Germanicus]

Ahhh . . . if only one COULD build Cretan Archers with the Greeks . . .

I have been enjoying a Greek Cities round of late, and I recruit the Cretan mercs every chance I get. I have a faction member posted in Sparta, and periodically I do a little boat trip to Crete to see if any are available. Since you can also recruit them as mercs in the Peloponese and the Albanian areas, I also have my faction member step outside of Sparta occasionally to see if any are available locally. Having 3-4 Cretan archers in your army is a powerful weapon. They can really maul opposing infantry. And they're definitely a "must have" when assaulting a city. I do the same availability checking with my Pergamum general.

Caesar used them in his legions. So the real generals of the era knew their value as well.

In my current game, I'm going to try feeding Sparta lots of peasants so I can build up my population and start cranking out spartan hoplites. It's a pity that the Greek cities have so little cavalry options. But the armored hoplites can certainly hold their own against all comers. What I lack in quality, for cavalry, I've been trying to make up for in quantity with higher quality armor. It seems to be working.

The early going can be touch and go, but once you establish some breathing room (especially by capturing all of Sicily), the going gets a bit easier. In my current game, Pontus has been the bigger headache. I got Macedon eliminated more easily than I expected.

[Roman_Man#3]

what provinces do you have?

[Guyus Germanicus]

Hello RM3,

Saw your post this afternoon at work, but I waited to arrive home before answering. The Feds (my employer) frown on our posting from the office PC to bulletin boards, etc.

Currently in my Greek game I hold about 20-21 provinces. I have all of modern day Greek peninsula, Crete, Salonica, Apollonia, Tarentum, Croton, and Capua, not to mention all of Sicily. I hold Rhodes, Halicarnassus, Sardis and Nicomedia. Bylazora and Byzantium are mine as well. Have Rome and Ancrya under siege. With Sinope under control now, the Pontids are on the ropes. I'm moving on Segestica to finish off the rebel ex-Macedonian army there. Three fleets guard Rhodes and I'm preparing an invasion force for Salamis. The money situation is good.

I have a rather large Pontic army under siege in Ancrya. Their last serious field army. Mazaka (sp) should be no fight after this. The Egyptians tried to slip an army by me to besiege Sardis. Had been on good terms with them until that moment. I'm at war with Carthage, but haven't encountered them since I secured Sicily early in the game. I have a ex-Brutii 5-star general for whom I'm assembling a large armoured hoplite expeditionary force on Sicily preparing to deal with Carthage. I bribed him into the fold after I took the last Brutii city - Tarentum. I bribed away a Pontic general and am going to post him in Macedonia to deal with Thrace.

Rome SPQR attacked me when I advanced on Capua. It wasn't their usual fullstack army that I typically encounter when I deal with them. My army was chock full of armored hoplites. Suffered light casualties to the hoplites; moderate casualties to my Greek cavalry.

I'm feeding peasants like mad to Sparta to get the population up so I can start recruiting Spartan hoplites. I'd like to have a goodly supply for an Egyptian campaign. :egypt:

Rhodian slingers are marvelous for ruining Pontic spearmen. :smash:

That's the story so far. May not get to the game this evening as I have an open house to attend. Am enjoying a little snort of Bourbon at the moment. Cheers, big guy.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Ahhh . . . if only one COULD build Cretan Archers with the Greeks . . .

I have been enjoying a Greek Cities round of late, and I recruit the Cretan mercs every chance I get. I have a faction member posted in Sparta, and periodically I do a little boat trip to Crete to see if any are available. Since you can also recruit them as mercs in the Peloponese and the Albanian areas, I also have my faction member step outside of Sparta occasionally to see if any are available locally. Having 3-4 Cretan archers in your army is a powerful weapon. They can really maul opposing infantry. And they're definitely a "must have" when assaulting a city. I do the same availability checking with my Pergamum general.

Caesar used them in his legions. So the real generals of the era knew their value as well.

In my current game, I'm going to try feeding Sparta lots of peasants so I can build up my population and start cranking out spartan hoplites. It's a pity that the Greek cities have so little cavalry options. But the armored hoplites can certainly hold their own against all comers. What I lack in quality, for cavalry, I've been trying to make up for in quantity with higher quality armor. It seems to be working.

The early going can be touch and go, but once you establish some breathing room (especially by capturing all of Sicily), the going gets a bit easier. In my current game, Pontus has been the bigger headache. I got Macedon eliminated more easily than I expected.

Try XGM. I've loaded it and bashed around a bit. It's much tougher than the vanilla and does a really nice job with the Greek/successor factions. Give it a whirl!

[Motep]

https://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l156/Motep_the_Great/screenshots/Formation.jpg

This is the Ideal Greek formation. Put your phalanx in a circle (or near-circle) and put the rest inside. Onagers were useless in this battle, but they may be found usefull in others. However, this Formation is vulnerable to Archers and Artillery. Always a good Idea to bring some cavalry, even if they die, to take out the archers and artillery to ensure the survival of the fromation. It can withstand forces several times the siza of their own (I won the battle against 4 armies of romans with gold chevrons). After a while though, your troops get exhausted and they are broken through, thus leading to their destruction. Great for taking out a large number of enemy troops with small loss to your own.

[guineawolf]

Ahhh . . . if only one COULD build Cretan Archers with the Greeks . . .

I have been enjoying a Greek Cities round of late, and I recruit the Cretan mercs every chance I get. I have a faction member posted in Sparta, and periodically I do a little boat trip to Crete to see if any are available. Since you can also recruit them as mercs in the Peloponese and the Albanian areas, I also have my faction member step outside of Sparta occasionally to see if any are available locally. Having 3-4 Cretan archers in your army is a powerful weapon. They can really maul opposing infantry. And they're definitely a "must have" when assaulting a city. I do the same availability checking with my Pergamum general.

Caesar used them in his legions. So the real generals of the era knew their value as well.

In my current game, I'm going to try feeding Sparta lots of peasants so I can build up my population and start cranking out spartan hoplites. It's a pity that the Greek cities have so little cavalry options. But the armored hoplites can certainly hold their own against all comers. What I lack in quality, for cavalry, I've been trying to make up for in quantity with higher quality armor. It seems to be working.

The early going can be touch and go, but once you establish some breathing room (especially by capturing all of Sicily), the going gets a bit easier. In my current game, Pontus has been the bigger headache. I got Macedon eliminated more easily than I expected.

only macedonians can recruit cretan archers.....:yes:

[Roman_Man#3]

The last time I checked, no one could recruit cretan archers. You have to mod them into the game yourself, at least to be recruited.

[guineawolf]

The last time I checked, no one could recruit cretan archers. You have to mod them into the game yourself, at least to be recruited.

my mistake,i think i check them at custom battle......:oops:

[Ray]

I think Spartans are a waste of money. Elite hoplites can do the most important things Spartans can do, and they don't cost as much money. That means you can afford more armies. The Spartans' greatest strength is their melee attack, but that is not important in open battles where the phalanx rules. In sieges, knock a hole in the wall and kill everything guarding the gap with ballistas or scorpions. Then send in the elite hoplites to block the streets with their phalanxes.

[Roman_Man#3]

Ya, I guess, but It is just cool to have spartans. They have two hitpoints remember, so 1 of them is like 2 elite hoplites. But for your everyday army, I would go with elite hoplites, because they can be retrained anywhere. If you have a very elite army though, go for the spartans.

[Suraknar]

Well, I am very fond of playing the Greek Cities.

I always open up with Diplomacy, and in the first few turns Forge an alliance with the Carthaginian in sicelly with Trade rights, Macedon, Seleucid and Pontus.

The romans are really poised to get the greek peninsula so trade rights with the scipii will only prolly buy you a couple of turns befor the full attention of the Roman Senate is brought upon you.

In some campaigns the Brutii will forge alliances with Macedon and Macedon will declare war on you.

But most of the time Macedon comes under attack by the brutii specially if you manage to sieze the rebel cities of the north western side, when the britii go against macedon you can be pretty sure that macedon will remain you ally for a very long time, they serve as a buffer against the roman before you decide expanding to Itally all together.

In anatolia things are very unstable at times the seleucid will remain faithfull allies till their demise, at times they will attack you, if they do attack you betraying the alliance of the opening stages, then expect hardship, as it usually makes pontus to join in and occasionally caused even macedon to betray so you can find yourslef attacked from all sides.

Trade rights with the egyptians and armenia are very important, specially if seleucid turns against you, as you can ask egypt and armenia for alliances in that scenario which will eventually put pressure on the seleucud and in some cases on pontus, permiting you to concentrate in consolidating your place in Greece by fighting macedon while keeping at bay the romans.

The alliance with Carthage is also important as rome will go after them and thus they do remain faithfull allies distarcting the scipii.

Thegauls are not that interested in allying with you, even if they come under the scrutini of the Julii, however the Dacians can be usefull specially if Illyria is yours.

Early fleets are very important, you will be able to invade byzantium early as well as establish a foothold in the black sea provided you can afford a campaign there and are not under heavy attack, if you do so trade right with teh thracians as well as Scythians are also important. In scenarios where Macedon remains your ally they will go after the thracians and the Thacians will not attack you as your trade with them can be lucrative and they use that income to defend against the Scythians and incming Macedon, sometimes even Dacia.

Slowly and surelly you can establis yourself in all directions, Crete is a good island to take early on, as wellas the northern tip of africa directly to the south of crete. Once funds permit you can try to bribe the carthaginians in sicelly, (even if allied), after which point eliminating the Scipii is much easyer.

Depending on how your relations go with Seleucid you can wait till they are eliminated or almost eliminated by the others and either inherit some of their terrotories or cancell your alliance once they have only one province in anatolia, and then a couple of turns later besiege their settlement there insuring a very solid foothold in anatolia, and complete control of the aegean sea. This is a Strong center situation and trade will absolutelly flourish under the protection of your navy, which will then permit you to start you plans for further expansion, to the east or if you prefer directly start the campaign towards Rome...

Battle Considerations,

Unfortunently as strong as a phalanx can be, in later stages of the game, your enemies start having better and more varied troops, specially the romans post marian reforms, this I have found lets the Greeks in a disadvantage, and so even if it is more than possible to reach final victory as per vanilla, I have prefered to immplement some modding to give the greek cities some type of competition.

With minimal changes I only turned the Hoplite Militia in to normal Spearmen, removing their phalanx capability aswell as their secondary weapon. That gives you a secondary choice of Phalanx Flank support and defense against later Cavalry. With upgraded Armor and weapons as wella s carefull accumulation of experience these Militia Hoplite Spearmen make a huge difference in the battles of the later Game.

Use of certain mercenary units is always a good thing for Greek cities, specially Sarmatian cavalry if you have a foothold in the northern Black Sea, Thracian/bastarnae Mercenaries, Rhodian Slingers and Cretan Archers. Dont really bother with Heavy peltasts/Illirians mercs, as you will be able to make your own at one point.

Some eastern mercs work well too depending how deep you advance in anatolia.

I suggest spartan Hoplites only when you can fully upgrade their weapon an armor, they do have better health stats and can stand their ground for extended periods due to their higher base morale. The backbone of your armies will eventually be Armoured Hoplites and a couple of spartan hoplites could be deployed to the sides of your battle line for shock/flanking maneuvers.

That is about it.

[13th-Caesar]

O.K. My tactics are completely different to everyone elses... but my levels are Medium/Medium so they may be no use to anyone here.

I knew the Scipii were going to attack Syracuse so I grabbed Messana real quick. I left Carthage for a while, they werent attacking me so why atack them? I built up armies in Rhodes and took the rebel town near there. Soon after I moved my forces back to Greece mainland to concentrate attack on Macedonians. I saw the Macedons going for Athens (well that direction anyway!) thanks to diplomats so I took Athens with a relativly small loss of men. This cut off any Macedon help while I invaded the city north of Sparta. I now had a firm starting base. After moving swiftly north through Greece I stopped at Bzylaroza (forgotten the name!). By this time I had managed to kill off Macedons and make alliances with Selecuid, Egypt and Parthia (Thrace and Pontus didnt want to even speak to me!). I bribed a couple of Selecuid towns in Asia Minor/Turkey. This way I stayed neutral/allies with nearly everyone while still gaining ground. With everything in Greece mine, Asia Minor was calm so I decided to hit Italy while they were still not strong enough. I moved all my forces to Syracuse in a massive fleet to make sure it didnt sink (7/8 ships) and smashed the Brutii town in the boot of Italy. I stayed neytral with Carthage for sea-faring reasons ;)

After I took the first Brtuii town I stayed still for a few turns. Replenishing my forces, building walls and occasionally forts as well as fending back constant attacks. I then moved north and grabbed the other Italian Brutii town before capturing Capua. I lost nearly all of my forces at Capua in a desastrous attack on the city. This left me with lots and lots of money, but very little army. The Thracians then declared war and besieged Byzantium and the town west of Byzantium. This was quickly followed by Julii besieging Salona.For a long time I was just fending off those attacks, and this shrunk my meagre force even further. However I did manage to gain some land off of Thrace by landing a force I had been building up from Rhodes next to Byzantium (get back :whip: ) I tried to make ceasefires with Julii but they didnt give two hoots about ceasefiring. With two fronts opening up I didnt like it, so I hit Rome hard. I took my Faction Leader (50 cav.) and the rest were armoured hoplites (not a very balanced army!). The senate had two units in the city, and one huge one outside containing maybe 6 family members (all the family pretty much). I attacked both in one and my phalanxes absolutely smashed the Senate. I took rome by killing around 1400 romans and losing 400 myself (stupid big walls!). I thought this would stop Julii (offering them Rome for a ceasefire, but alas, they said no :no: ) Julli kept on sending forces south but I bribed them off. I shifted my army to the army that was being made all this time in Asia minor and in one turn sent three huge forces and besieged 3 Pontus towns (currently under siege as I type!). I also gathered up all my mainland Greece armies, lowered taxes and pushed northwards, hoping to take out the Brutii but I cant find them!?!? Thracians are in the way and are being squashed. Bribes are buying me towns in Edgypt's area, around Antioch etc and I am pushed north from there (firm alliance with Egpyt to cover my back). In my last turn I took the Carthagian town of Lilybaeum which now means I am, unfortunately, at war with them. They look pretty weak though so I m not expecting any attacks.

Also, an idea that didnt occur to me until today in a boring Maths lesson... (stating the obvious here) Parthians have poor infantry but good cavalry, which = a cavalry based army... an army my mighty phalanxes can easily beat.


I love playing as the Greeks, the phalanxes are awesome and are pretty much indestructible (my only heavy defeat as the Julii came from the Greek phalanxes, I didnt know anything about them so I charged my General a.k.a Faction Leader's cavalry at them because they had a poor attack:oops: ). So far (quite a way in, I have 30 or so terratories including central and southern Italy) I have only had one unit of my beloved hoplites routing (mercenaries just dont stop running!!)

[cobalt]

why can't view this? It just says guide on the first page?

[Ludens]

why can't view this? It just says guide on the first page?
Hello Cobalt, welcome to the Org ~:wave: . I am afraid there isn't a real, single guide for the Greek cities. This thread is a collection of suggestions and strategies on how to lead the Greeks to glory.

[WarLord of the East]

from my experinces the greeks arethe one of the easiest faction to play especially early in the game they have slight advantage rich lans ,armored hoplites ( one of the best unıts in the game considered cost / effectivenes)
very good starting position the problem occurs when you face the oppenents late in the game against heavy cavalary of east (and even against romans and macedons) they stand week hoplites are good and spartans comes but the hoplites are the most vunarable unit against onager fire due to their tight form. and by considering they have no heavy or medium cavalary always try to attack the macedons early romens mıd ın the game and never get involved with parthians if they managed to survive and build cat elp. and per. cav.
i did not had any problem while dealing with pharoah try to backstab the wıth spartans attack alexandrie thebes and the other city (i dont remember its name there you will find a lot of armor and xp up grades due to temple cities and also the cities have a great natural defences through sinai and bridges (i am playing at vey hard at both options :beam: as most of you:beam: ) by the way i wrote my username wrong by accident i am a recruit to this forum at all ~;)

[WarLord of the East]

can't i change my user name ?

[Ludens]

can't i change my user name ?
Hello Warlord of the East, welcome to the Org ~:wave: . Junior members cannot change their username, but TosaInu can do it for you. Try PMing (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/private.php?do=newpm&u=6381) him.

[WarLord of the East]

thank you for help :)

[guineawolf]

I advised to set fire to the rams because this strategy allows you to defeat large assaulting AI armies with few garisson troops present.

Walls aren't the Greeks best friends, since when the AI come's up with an hughe invasion force they will most likely include some rams and ladders too: and that's where things might start to go all wrong. Greek armies are for some reason very very bad at fighting on walls, fighting on walls is a sure way to loose the battle against most factions. And by building walls you provide the AI with the possibility to attack the hoplites in the back (the AI doesn't have to go for your troops, I've noticed that it sometimes does try and find ways to sneak around my forces) and from then on it is pretty much a Clear Defeat.

To draw conclusions:
1 Whenever you can't afford yourself much of an garisson, then don't and don't build walls.
2 Whenever you do, be sure to try the supersalsa approach: it's far better to slaughter your ennemies than force them to go away but relatively unharmed. (They will keep roaming your lands and keep pillaging)
3 Always have some archers as garrison, they are one of the cheapest unit's available, are capable to hold off much larger enemy forces, have a decent size to keep up public order rates, and in both approaches fulfill a critical task.

And as allways: keep your hoplites with their noses pointed towards the enemy. :2thumbsup:

i forget where i read this,that it said spearmen are less effective against other infantry while they are very effective against cavalry,and hoplites are group in spearmen.

[Ludens]

i forget where i read this,that it said spearmen are less effective against other infantry while they are very effective against cavalry,and hoplites are group in spearmen.
Spearunits generally have a lower lethality than swordunits. Lethality is the chance that a succesful hit results in a kill or a knock-down. This accounts for the lackluster performance of Triarii compared to Principeps, even though both units have the same attack factor. Off course, against cavalry this effect is negated by the spearbonus, and a prepared spearunit is better able to survive a frontal cavalry charge. However, phalanx units always have a sword as secondary weapon, so they get the best of both worlds.

[WarLord of the East]

Cıty defence
there is no need for archers just have 8-9 hoplıtes ( no need for spartans but 3-4 armored ıs requıred for hard battles )an onager and 2 skırmıshers
Deploy your hoplıtes around the cıtys center the enemy wıll come there sınce ıt needs to remove all your men from there to claim the cıty (you know where ı mean the place whıch has your flag) fıll all the gaps maxımum 3 roads to center and enemy only attacks two mostly (there mut be some kınd of bug or sth lıke that) let the enemy come to you and meet the comer wıth artılery fıre. sınce the area ıs vey close ıf you can hıt a couple of flamıng shots ıt wıll kıll a lot of TIRED and UNHAPPY man put 1 of peltasts just behınd the hoplıtes where the enemy wıll attack wıth ıts most forces then other to the walls some where far from the enemy sıege when enemy captures walls and opens gate and hıs man moves out of walls then recapture the towers wıth fast peltasts the towers wıll kıll aproximetely 1/4- 1/5 of the enemy then kıll the remaınders who are comıng to your hoplıtes they wıll be tıred and wounded.... !!!!!remember that at the cıty center your man wıll never flee!!!!!
i ve defeated 2 tımes larger late roman armıes wıth urban chords and preatorian cav. at VH/VH mode several tımes same tactıc for macedon thrace and seleucıds and even wıth cartage and pontus

[davidb1980]

What is this spartan hidden resource and how do i mod it on my game

[Seamus Fermanagh]

works just like elephant, though there is no map symbol depicting it's presence in a province. If you don't have the spartan resource, you can't build spartan hoplites.

It occurs in Syracuse and Sparta in the vanilla game.

Go look up how and where the resource is listed in those provinces -- you should be able to add it to others.

[Rotc_Railey15]

I was ready in the first pages that some of you made Carthage your enemy. When I played, Carthage is a powerful ally if you let them. When the Scipii attacked me first, they lost an entire army to my Hoplites. We they attack the Carthaginians, they captured Lilybaeum with tremendous casualties. Thats when I sent and army of 1 Greek Cav, 2 militia cav. and 7 Hoplites to attack and captured LilyBauem. As you all know, once the Scipii lose Sicily, they have lost the war.

Macedon was tough, but after they depleted armies attacking my defenses, I went on the offensive and captured Athens, Corinth, and Thermon. It was after that where the game got alot easier. Money flowed in, and I was able to afford Armoured Hoplites. Pontus though became a problem. They became allies with Macedon and attacked Pergamum.

To make a long story short, the Greeks have been my best game so far. I have at least 132000 denari and hundreds of Spartans. My navy is superior and now my toughest enemy is Egypt instead of the Romans. But ive blockaded all of Egypt's ports with my superior Naval forces and have also used my navy to transport entire armies to suprise attack Egyptian cities on the coast line. My lastest capture was Sidon.

[woad&fangs]

In my game I abandoned pergamum and syracuse, took corinth in two turns and Athens two turns later, three turns to capture larissa and then I blitz the romans. I killed more than half the bruttii army in one battle in appalonia then it took 10 turns or so wipe them off the map. I did a circle around sicily while playing defense in italy it took about 10-15 turns to beat those roman smurfs off the island. After that i churned out another big army back in greece to finish off macedon and then to attack italy from the north. This took longer than the other romans but eventually the senate capua and the julii fell to my two armies. After that I oddly decided that a greek empire should include gaul soooo.... apparently hoplites and armoured hoplites are nearly immortal against gaul as long as they dont have those nasty archers. I'm not kidding my army was about 90% hoplites or armoured hoplites and they took a new town every five turns or so. This was the fastest I ever beat the imperial campaign. Oh yeah, and auto resolve seems to have a love affair with hoplites feel freee to use it.

[Rotc_Railey15]

I have had difficulty in working my way up Italy. The Scipii only have Capua but are well defended and have the Julii coming to the rescue. Ive tried going on the offensive but have found myself outnumbered and surrounded several times. My lastest plan is to work up the coast east of Italy capturing Julii cities and ultimately attacking through italy from the north. It might work, but I need to send more troops to the region with Spartans attached. I should also recruit some Mercenary war elephants in the middle east and use them against the romans.

Ive mainly focused against the Egyptians though and have captured two Scythian settlements. The Britons have really devastated them and are my alllies right now. Ive been trying to get them to attack the Brutii so I can easily take over settlements with fewer casualties.

[Bootsiuv]

Oh yeah, and auto resolve seems to have a love affair with hoplites feel freee to use it.

Heh, I've found it to be the exact opposite, usually phalanx based units like the vanilla hoplites (I play XGM now, and hoplites don't have the phalanx in the current version, although that's about to change from what I hear) get torn up from autoresolve, maybe because I play on H/M. Who knows.

[GM1940]

If you don't mind the logistics of it, having siege equipment keeps you in city fighting - where hoplites shine brightest - as much as possible. As Seleucids it's a bit easier because elephants are necessary anyway and can bash in wooden walls and gates.

Against wealthy factions like the Romans this can avoid large scale relief battles where hoplite armies can be a little hard pressed (Unless you corner camp, which is cheap.)

[woad&fangs]

Boots I mean against the armies of Gaul, Romans should be fought on the battle map whenever possible but my army I used to invade gaul was all either hoplites or armoured hoplites and since my graphics card wasn't good enough to fight on the battle map back then I had to auto resolve all my battles and I easily beat gaul

[Takhlahr]

Hello,

I've played the Greek Cities some weeks ago and I must say that it is indeed an interesting choice but also a very easy nation to play.

In turn 1 you can wipe out the scipii from sicilia and attack the macedonia. You will have a good advantage in greek peninsula very soon because you can build armored hoplites very soon in sparta which is a superior unit early on. The macedonia will fall really easy.

The good thing about the greek cities is that you have seperated places at the beginning of the game: sicilia, greek peninsula and a way to the asia minors. So you just build up quickly 3 or even 4 armies and fight at several places, including creta which you should get quickly(bring a diplomat there to bribe the wonderful rebels there to get even more cretan archers). The key here is much hoplites since the AI really sucks to beat them. You have some disadvantages: no or really bad cav and no archers besides the common ones. Luckily you can recruit cretan archers and you should do so. I have one general who is patrolling between the provinces to recruit those archers.

All the others generals are really needed in your armies. Trust me, you need them because they are the best cav for you for the entire game. My main 3 armies have usually something around 3 to 5 generals each. They are mainly for flanking defense, taking down the generals of your enemies and of course for chasing down the routing enemies. I never had any family member in one of my cities as a govorner. You need them in the battles.

The greek cities start really rich, after 3 or 4 turns - in which you build the standard trade buildings - you are earning more money than you need. Now you should really switch to military buildings to be ably to build up better hoplites. Sparta should build up the best barracks possible from the beginning of the game. You have so much money that you can easily hire any mercs you are able to hire. Use them as garrison or cannon fodder in tougher battles. Have you ever saw how easy you beat an army of the enemie when you use one of your hired warbands in asia to lure the enemie to them and 2 or 3 cretan archers are firing in the flanks of all attacking units?! That's just pure MONKEY ISLAND.

Use all the rest of your money to build up a good fleet. I got backstapped several times from carthagian, seleucid, egypt and so on and then you are really happy to have a superior fleet, only numbers counts there really.

Well, like I said it was interesting because I was not able to ally with any important nation, luckily at least dacian and even parthia wanted to ally with me and so you don't need to worry about all of your borders. You got backstapped every now and then and have to fight many wars in many directions. Now you see that you really need 3 or even 4 armies.

Too sad there is really one downer: the ai really sucks in battles. They are never able to beat your hoplites if you know what you are doing. I remember one fight when I bribed one of the seleucids army: 4 militia hoplites and immeditaly besieged one of there cities which it. I got attacked the next turn from 1 general with 1600 troops and they got reinforcement from the citiy which included another general and 800 troops. To be honest, it was one of the most interesting and most disappointed battles every to see you they charged right in my hoplites and got routed every time. I lost 3/4 of my troops but beated more than 80% of their troops in open terrain.

All in all you can say that I noticed again the real downer of the game: the really bad ai in battles. If the AI would be much better there then RTW would be the best game ever.

Even with 3 to 4 armies fighting at the same time I realized that I was too passive. 2 Improvments would be to attack the scipii after the first brutii army appeared in sicilia. And meanwhile build up another army early on to attack the brutii at the same time from the west.

I just hope you can understand this post because english is not my native language.

[woad&fangs]

First off your English is perfect and better than 90% of the posters in this forum. Second, yes the AI is really easy to beat. In city battles I have found phalanx units to be nearly invincible unless I do something really stupid. I think I there is a mod called DarthMod that improves the AI but I haven't tried it.

[guineawolf]

i forget where i read this,that it said spearmen are less effective against other infantry while they are very effective against cavalry,and hoplites are group in spearmen.
i think i have to change this after i get more conclusion with more and more combat on the battlefield,it is that phalanxe units that get pnalty against cavalry only,the rest spearmen with no phalanxe get only 0.73 lethatlity compare to phalanxe unit's 1.00 lethality,coz all phalanxe units equip with sword too....:sweatdrop:

[Poulp']

First off your English is perfect and better than 90% of the posters in this forum. Second, yes the AI is really easy to beat. In city battles I have found phalanx units to be nearly invincible unless I do something really stupid. I think I there is a mod called DarthMod that improves the AI but I haven't tried it.

definitely :yes:

Darthmod is like cocaine, once you're in, there's no going back

[Seamus Fermanagh]

definitely :yes:

Darthmod is like cocaine, once you're in, there's no going back

Darthmod with its formations and better basic strategy for the AI is much stronger than vanilla -- and much more of a challenge.

[Poulp']

Please note that I don't promote the use of substances, with the exception of wine and women.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Please note that I don't promote the use of substances, with the exception of wine and women.

Too late, the DEA already has your URL tagged for constant review! :devilish:

[Oshidashi]

It's truly great playing the Greek Cities! I was triggered playing with them once more because I'm currently reading The Peloppenesian War by Thucydides:book:

I can't make much additions to the previous posts, it took me 2 weeks to read everything in this thread and I've had no exceptional experiences in my game. It does annoy me that I haven't been able to make any alliances so far, except with Macedon, who attacked me a few turns later anyway:furious3: while others did succeed in making alliances early in the game.

Normally, in all my games, I try to build up the economy ASAP through trade structures. In this game I also did that but I chose to not build a port at Sparta. I also didnt build any walls in Sparta, just for the sake of realism. They are after all the dominant city when the game starts: it's the largest city you start with (larger then Pergamum I believe) and all the names of the family members end with "of Sparta". But as soon as Athens exceeds Sparta in importance (this is ofcourse measured in a subjective way), I will build more trade structures - and other buildings that don't correspond with the Spartan way - in Sparta.

Needless to say, I train most of my navy in Athens:2thumbsup:

[guineawolf]

i own 32 region at 232 BC,and 500K of treasury with 45K net income,with most of it militia hoplites(very good swordmen for me) and militia cavalry.........how about it?:2thumbsup:
With roman (Julii left) own a last stronghold (just a large town)

Note:1K=1000

i standardised my military production buildings,like building armourer at the same time,so i can retrain my units at every cities(mostly border city,i can resupply everywhere within my border.Or militia barracks for hoplites.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Keep all but the painfully honest family members out of your cities or they will all become, rather rapidly, a rapacious lot of acquisitive graft-hounds. Large treasuries have VERY bad consequences for governor traits. See the "Care and Feeding" thread.

[woad&fangs]

When you are making 45K per turn, losing a few denarii to corrupt governors doesn't really matter.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

When you are making 45K per turn, losing a few denarii to corrupt governors doesn't really matter.

Agreed. However, I can recall a game or two where I was losing 20% of my income to greedy governors skimming off the top because I had allowed the treasury to grow over 150k and the traits had neg-spiralled. I was making over 200k a turn at one point and losing 40k of it -- down to a paltry 10k profit level -- to "shrinkage." Plus, shortly thereafter, a whole city to a Scythian diplomat because the governor was thief with no honor.

A few thousands to placate the 5-6 governors who are adding hugely to the economy is one thing, but it can get out of hand. I usually "bank" my money by building large queues of expensive buildings -- which can be returned from the waiting list to my treasury if I need cash.

[guineawolf]

Keep all but the painfully honest family members out of your cities or they will all become, rather rapidly, a rapacious lot of acquisitive graft-hounds. Large treasuries have VERY bad consequences for governor traits. See the "Care and Feeding" thread.

dun worry,i can use 25% law bonus from Pantheon of Athena to cover their corruption(-3 law=-15% law)......Then i can put greeks influence to cover those garrison upkeep by increase 40% PO(public order).For low income region,it prove useful....coz lower income,the lower the corruption(% of income being sucked) as calculation,but we need these land though....
Roman use it monthly games and races's to cover 40%PO ....:2thumbsup:
For carthaginian,egyptian and easterner,they use torturer to cover up the corruption,that is +3 law bonus;1 law bonus from priest of horus and priest of baal,then you can still got +1 law bonus at balance,without count at the punisher(traits) that provide more law bonus....

[paul_kiss]

I'm currently playing for the Greeks, and I must admit they're a great nation to play.

I've a question. Now the heavy hoplites are the backbone of my armies (and they're real killing machines), and I've come to the possibility of training the Spartans. But I've checked the stats and tried to compare heavy hoplites with them, and the comparizon showed me that the heavy hoplites don't really lag behind Spartans, they're almost equal (Spartans in fact have less armour than the h-hoplites).

So I'd like to know is there any sense to switch from training heavy hoplites to Spartans.

[Hanno]

:inquisitive: I just always assumed that Spartans were better than Armoured hoplites or else you would be getting Spartans before you got the Armoured hoplites.From what I can recall they are the best hoplites in the game although as you said I don't think they have a good defense which they should seeing as they defended Sparta which was a city without walls

[Ludens]

Armoured hoplites have a better armour rating, making them less vulnerable to attacks from the flank and rear as well as missile attacks, the latter being the Spartans' main weakness. However, Spartans have a far larger attack factor and two hitpoints (all other units, excepting gladiators, bodyguards and elephants, have only one). This makes them better killers, and the double hitpoints compensate for their lack of armour. IIRC they rout less easily.

Incidentally, by the third century B.C. Sparta did have walls.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Keep in mind that it takes two turns to recruit Spartans and only one turn to recruit the armored Hoplites. You have to ask yourself whether you want quantity or quality.

Also keep in mind how many troop recruiting centers you have. If most of your cities can churn out armored Hoplites, then it's probably okay to go ahead and recruit Spartans in the two cities that are able to (Sparta and Syracuse).

[Hanno]

:book: I never knew that, I just always heard that Sparta never had walls as the Spartans saw walls as being weak,a guess by the third century BC the Spartans glory days were over with the Macedonians ruling most of Greece,but in the days of the Persians the Spartans were a force to be reckoned with:yes:

[Caius]

I started again as the Greeks Cities.

Everything started right, as I didnt expected. I was attacked by the Scipii in Syracuse. I crushed them. They were so weak that I attacked them in Messana, and they lost the battle. Carthage is not doing any kind of damage yet.

In central Greece, I had a chance that made me won Corinth. The enemy with other mini army attacked me when i was sieging Corinth. I weakened Corinth a lot, that made me won that city. I also won Athens, which still was rebel, but being sieged two or three times by the Macedonians.
Larissa is being sieged by our forces, 4 Armoured Hoplites and 1 Spartan Hoplite.
I control Kydonia also. Thats all, in less than 10 years.

[paul_kiss]

Meanwhile I'm playing for the Greeks, it's so fun, I must say. Nothing can stand before the falanxes of armoured hoplites. I decided not to mess with some minor threats, but instead I got engaged into war with the Romans. First I crushed the Scipii, then SPQR, recently Brutii hit the dust, and now I'm pressing on the Julii.

Hoplites rule the world.

[Caius]

Hoplites rule the world.
Yes, but also a little of tactics help.

[Benandorf]

I've started a game with the Greek Cities recently, and love the hoplites, but need a spot of advice: How do you entice the enemy to charge into your wall of death? Does a later patch make the AI more agressive (I'm not sure which one I have, but I doubt it's the most recent one), or do I just slowly move towards the enemy and be sure to stop when they start to move towards me? Should I just build some more cavalry? I've tried using Skirmishers that back off, but the AI just sits there while I throw the javelines, or even worse they will shoot the skirmishers down with archers, or charge them with cav, and then get back in formation and sit.

[Poulp']

a thin, long line of slingers is the solution.

put them just in front of your hoplites, skirmish turned off. The AI never fails to charge them, lower your pikes an instant before the impact.

[Benandorf]

Even if the AI is on the other side of the map, they'll move forwards and charge? And then charge the Phalanx? Or do I just move the Phalanx up at that point?

And you say I lower the pikes last second, do you mean that I keep them out of Phalanx until that point?

[Caius]

Even if the AI is on the other side of the map, they'll move forwards and charge? And then charge the Phalanx? Or do I just move the Phalanx up at that point?

It depends. In RTW 1.5, if they are attacked, will move to the farthest point. And they wont move. If they attack you, they will move.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

There is something about a slingers unit, whether its in Vanilla or 1.5, that the AI just loves to go after them with cavalry -- and this seems to be more so for slingers than other units.

I often bought cheapo slingers as the Eggies or Carthas just to have the enemy cavalry race onto the pikes they were fronting.

I left them in phalanx from the outset.

[TheNakedChef]

Greece is a tough faction because you have to do so much with so little at the start of the game.

Syracuse, and all Sicily for that matter, is set up at the start of the game to be a big cash sink for you. It's necessary to hold Sicily, however, because you hose both Carthage and the Scipii. Meanwhile, you only control a fraction of the greek peninsula. However, should you break out of the Laconic peninsula(Sparta), you are in prime position to reap the rewards of the money belt from Byzantium to Halicarnassus to Rhodes to Kydonia to Sparta to Thessalonica. You must act early against Macedon and take the peninsula.

The harders part is that, until you can upgrade your cities, you're forced into relying on hoplites and your general unit to get anything done. The battle timers were not designed to let you do everything with your hoplites, and greek cavalry is godawful. You don't even get an actual cav unit until the second stable upgrade, and even then, they're good for one or two charges before losses start piling up. You will lose battles and especially sieges because you didn't have enough time to position your phalanxes, and positioning is the name of the game with hoplites.

Greece's Strengths:
-Hoplites, in phalanx formation, will annihlate just about any infantry or cavalry unit head on.
-Excellent placement for wealth
-Excellent siege equipment late game
-Opportunity to begome a large naval power
-Powerful variety of Religious buildings
-Spartans. They are that good.
-Full Academy upgrades. Your characters will largely be well educated.
-Once you get inside a city, or you're forced to defend, Phalanx units can plug roadways and kill absurd amounts of people for minimal losses.

Weaknesses:
-Vulnerable to hit and run archery tactics
-Phalanxes are very inflexible. Extremely vulnerable on flanks and rear...
-...and you can't do much about it because your cavalry sucks.
-Forced to rely on mercenary help early on
-Sieging successfuly early on is entirely dependant on the BS battle timers.

Carthage will attack you first in Sicily, but you can win the sally with a bit of luck. Scipii will follow suit, but this is an easier battle to win. Expect to pour resources into Sicily, as it will be a while before you see any returns. In the end, it IS worth it.

Break out of Sparta and take Corinth as fast as possible. The Statue of Zeus gives +4 Loyalty bonus to all your settlements, and you'll need every troop you can muster against Macedon and Sicily.

Expect to lose early on if you don't have a numbers advantage, since a numbers advantage means less chance of your lines being enveloped. Also, expect to lose a few generals along the way. They're your only source of cavalry for the longest time, and they will need to work overtime to prevent your hoplites from getting flanked or broken by ranged fire.

On that note, it is in your interest to buy mercenaries, especially early to help you continue a surge into Greece. Merc hoplites are actually a bit stronger than the ones you start with, and they fit in seamlessly to your military machine. Cretan archers are helpful as well: They have good stats, and prevent your army from being a one-trick pony with the phalanxes. I've never been much of a fan of skirmishing troops, but peltasts will be your only ranged units for a while, so you might as well train some.

Play diplomatic games, especially with Macedon and Thrace. Brokering ceasefires will give you time to retrain and rebuild your military between sieges. Also, try to get trade deals with as many nations as possible, including thrace, pontius, egypt, numidia, carthage, spain, and even Gaul for a while. You'll need to have a sharp diplomatic game to help protect your armies from unnecessary fights.

Once I wiped out macedon and cleaned out sicily, I fortified Sicily like crazy. The Scythii will send many waves of armies to try and take Messalia back - Train a diplomat and try and bribe their characters and armies. My attentions also soon turned to Rhodes. The colossus gives a bonus in trade, and controlling the towns surrounding that sea will bring in heaps of gold.

Also try and take Appolonia and Salona so the Brutii can't expand. I also took and held Caralis so the Julii couldn't. If you hurry, you can box Rome in to their peninsula such that the Scipii and Brutii are left with only starter towns. They will harras you in the water, but Rome will not be a threat if you can contain them early.

Once I took the greek peninsula, including Byzantium, Nicodema, Porrolisseum, Saralis, and Halicarnassus, I brokered peace and neutrality with as many nations as possible and raked in the gold for many years, turtling and fortifying cities. You will quickly become richest faction if you can control this ring and sit on it. With the money I made, I quickly built a large navy to "police" this section of sea. The seleucids didn't play nice, and Brutii has the gall to try beach landings near Athens if you don't stop them. That was unexpected.

You may find it difficult to keep your starter navy afloat, especially around sicily. I allied with carthage and that helped immensely. Thing is, once you get a big enough navy afloat, they are really hard to sink. Take your navy out, win a battle or two, and then retrain them immediately. If you shepherd them, especially the police force in the money belt, you will have a very large, highly HIGHLY skilled, navy. By 240BC, I had 3 maxed exp, 12-18unit (Biremes/triremes) navies that I took out of the money belt and blockaded Rome into poverty. And there wasn't a thing they could do about it.

So, to recap, don't sit early on, you have stuff to do. Take and hold sicily, and simultaneously work on taking Greece. Hire mercs to move faster in greece. Once you have larissa, send some units down to Rhodes to take the city. The added money from the colossus is great, and rhodes is a good staging point for an attack on Harlicanassus. Try to block Rome from expanding. If you remember the Imperial campaign, Rome's objectives are very much the same, and their 3 factions will try and take the same cities in the same order. If you hold sicily, the Scythii are basically screwed into a war of attrition, and you have access to 4 of the 7 world's wonders, a merchant dreamland. Controling the western shore of greece prevents the Brutii from fulfilling their objectives. Try to take Rome before the Reformation, but only after you're sitting on a wad of cash.

I also managed the growth rate of my cities so they didnt spiral out of control. If a city is giving you a tough time, don't be afraid to max taxes and pull out, forcing an uprising. Syracusae was losing way too much money and had low public order because the town starts with such a large population base. They had to be 'put down'. Wiping out the population in a town turns a cash sink into a cash cow. Generally, you will never have an issue with that town again, either. Extermination, especially outside of the Greek peninsula, can be very handy for large uncooperative towns. For example, Lilybaeum and Messalia on Sicily are very uncooperative with you (Lilybaeum especially).

[Fallen Angel]

I'm playing the Greeks and have managed to get my fleet blockading half of Italia (the eastern half) by 255. At the time I was shipping out lesser forces as required and just trying to fight off the Roman fleets as they tried to undo my blockades. Suprisingly I can win all but the most skewed naval battles.

At 255 I started the Tiroan Reforms for the navy (Each city I own = 1 fleet of six Trireme's and two Quadmirines) and the Spartan 'Standard Garrison Template' Reforms. (Field armies will have more cav when I get around to standarizng them.)

A SGT is five armoured hoplite units, two archers or slingers, and two units of Greek Cav.

The current date is 243 BCE, and I have almost finished the naval reforms (still using the six month turns that are standard), and have given all but four cities standard template garrisons. (One is so small it won't grow in anybodies lifetime, and two are border towns on the edge of the empire with forces from the end of my anti-Macedonian campaign.)

So I got currently (thanks to the Tiroan Reforms) six fleets ready, and have split four fleets into halves on blockading duties - blocading Roman cities in Italia and Sicily (which I intend to invade as soon as I finish my reforms.)

I took out the brutii cities several turns ago, as well as sold everything and slaughtered the eastern Brutii city. the south-easternmost city in Italia has been retaken by the Julii, but without a port or population they cannot make it a sea-trading province. The south-western province I did not slaughter for reasons I cannot remember. That is a good thing. Remember, cities you do not slaughter but sell off everything make money and I got shitloads of rebels in that province. Good times, since it keeps Rome from taking back all of Italia and gives them a distraction. I would recommend selling everything but keeping it's population. I'd also recommend you keep Rome from taking back towns in Italia you took and want to go rebel. I find large stacks of rebel troops fill the vacumm.


Currently I have everything in Greece up to the line of borders continuous with Thrace, except for thrace. (I am questioning if asking teh Thracians for their named settlement is wise.)

The britons have taken all but one German city, have their southern border with Rome's northern border.

The Spanish have taken much territory up the french coast, and both (spain and briton) seem to be well buffering the Romans. (Thanks to me keeping the roman econ shite).

The Scythans have been pushed into several (large) provinces in the north eastern corner of the map.

Egypt has the south eastern of corner of the map and has relocated their capital to Jersluem. (Probably to stop riots/make the 'distance to capital' nil.)

The Scipii have a good empire in the western half of Egypt, and I can bet that the numedians are stuck in the south west corner of the map. (It's that thin province most forget or remember to remember.) This is the only source of revenue for Rome, and managing to keep it (and a good army for a single province state) alive.

Thrace has taken what would have become western Russia and the immediate states to the west of the Russ. They border me on the north.

Parthia has parts of asia minor, but is small, with Egypt coming around the eastern med and encroaching into asia minor.

I am at war with the Britons, the Romans (minus the Brutii), and Egypt.

One problem is that I don't know HOW I should invade Italia. Do I go from Sicily to the Rebels on the end, and go up? Or should I go around the top of Italia?

*If you know the names of the southern italian provinces (I can't boot up RTW now), and the rebels from said provinces, I'd be very grateful.

[Fallen Angel]

I'm playing the Greeks and have managed to get my fleet blockading half of Italia (the eastern half) by 255. At the time I was shipping out lesser forces as required and just trying to fight off the Roman fleets as they tried to undo my blockades. Suprisingly I can win all but the most skewed naval battles.

At 255 I started the Tiroan Reforms for the navy (Each city I own = 1 fleet of six Trireme's and two Quadmirines) and the Spartan 'Standard Garrison Template' Reforms. (Field armies will have more cav when I get around to standarizng them.)

A SGT is five armoured hoplite units, two archers or slingers, and two units of Greek Cav.

The current date is 243 BCE, and I have almost finished the naval reforms (still using the six month turns that are standard), and have given all but four cities standard template garrisons. (One is so small it won't grow in anybodies lifetime, and two are border towns on the edge of the empire with forces from the end of my anti-Macedonian campaign.)

So I got currently (thanks to the Tiroan Reforms) six fleets ready, and have split four fleets into halves on blockading duties - blocading Roman cities in Italia and Sicily (which I intend to invade as soon as I finish my reforms.)

I took out the brutii cities several turns ago, as well as sold everything and slaughtered the eastern Brutii city. the south-easternmost city in Italia has been retaken by the Julii, but without a port or population they cannot make it a sea-trading province. The south-western province I did not slaughter for reasons I cannot remember. That is a good thing. Remember, cities you do not slaughter but sell off everything make money and I got shitloads of rebels in that province. Good times, since it keeps Rome from taking back all of Italia and gives them a distraction. I would recommend selling everything but keeping it's population. I'd also recommend you keep Rome from taking back towns in Italia you took and want to go rebel. I find large stacks of rebel troops fill the vacumm.


Currently I have everything in Greece up to the line of borders continuous with Thrace, except for thrace. (I am questioning if asking teh Thracians for their named settlement is wise.)

The britons have taken all but one German city, have their southern border with Rome's northern border.

The Spanish have taken much territory up the french coast, and both (spain and briton) seem to be well buffering the Romans. (Thanks to me keeping the roman econ shite).

The Scythans have been pushed into several (large) provinces in the north eastern corner of the map.

Egypt has the south eastern of corner of the map and has relocated their capital to Jersluem. (Probably to stop riots/make the 'distance to capital' nil.)

The Scipii have a good empire in the western half of Egypt, and I can bet that the numedians are stuck in the south west corner of the map. (It's that thin province most forget or remember to remember.) This is the only source of revenue for Rome, and managing to keep it (and a good army for a single province state) alive.

Thrace has taken what would have become western Russia and the immediate states to the west of the Russ. They border me on the north.

Parthia has parts of asia minor, but is small, with Egypt coming around the eastern med and encroaching into asia minor.

I am at war with the Britons, the Romans (minus the Brutii), and Egypt.

One problem is that I don't know HOW I should invade Italia. Do I go from Sicily to the Rebels on the end, and go up? Or should I go around the top of Italia?

*If you know the names of the southern italian provinces (I can't boot up RTW now), and the rebels from said provinces, I'd be very grateful.

[mrdun]

For a rather unorthodox aproach, I abandon Scicily and mainland Greece and migrate to Asia Minor an quickly take the weak cities Nicomedia, Sinope, Salona, Halicarnassus and M... {Pontus' other town}) Fort the pass to Seleucids and put in a mediocre Garrison of Hoplites and Missile. That shouldn't give you many problems. Also fort the northern pass to Armenis and garrison. Now your cities are safe and you can concentrate on preparing for a fight which is on YOUR terms in mainland Greece. I reccommend 5 or 6 fleets with half stacks on. So around 3 full stacks plus a good fleet. It may take time to build your economy for this. From here you should not have many problems in pacifying Greece. Then Italy. Then Spain. Then N. Africa. Then, If ur feeling brave Egypt to win the game. In Greece and Italy only go as far North as major rivers which can be easily defended from Barbarian raids. Enjoy :)

[Ozzman1O1]

Greece is simple,regain alexanders empire,go into libya,take sicily,italy,brittania,and boom,you win,i find it a boring facton to play as in my opinion

[Ibn-Khaldun]

I've started a game with the Greek Cities recently, and love the hoplites, but need a spot of advice: How do you entice the enemy to charge into your wall of death? Does a later patch make the AI more agressive (I'm not sure which one I have, but I doubt it's the most recent one), or do I just slowly move towards the enemy and be sure to stop when they start to move towards me? Should I just build some more cavalry? I've tried using Skirmishers that back off, but the AI just sits there while I throw the javelines, or even worse they will shoot the skirmishers down with archers, or charge them with cav, and then get back in formation and sit.

i use archers .. mainly cretan archers because of there long range missiles ...
it never failes .. enemy will always attack ..
i use my cretans behind my hoplites so enemy will attack them and not my archers .. tough i think it is done by most of the players :embarassed:

[wumpus]

yo,mrdun. that's quite interesting. unique. yep,unorthodox. abandon greece, etc., and resettle in asia minor. goodah! you strike for economic growth! i like that, man. asia minor is a good trade-rich place to start your business in. Hawooh.
to Hanno: when the thebans mauled the spartans at LEUCTRA, sparta was never the same again. the whole of greece was never the same again. it showed everyone that spartans weren't really supersoldiers. they can be beaten! yes, maybe sparta saw the need to build walls at a late date, when thebans and athenians could come and burn spartan fields on occasion. (I suggest you read Plutarch's Lives of Greeks. read about the decline of the legendary sparta.) but i still like sparta best of all, if only her leaders and kings were not so politically naive. athens, on the other hand, was politically sneaky. Hawooh.
to Ozzman101: well, one man's poison is another man's candy. i like a good challenge. i play greek most times because i like an uphill fight--against macedonians, carthage (maybe early on, if we both lust after sicily), the romans (yikes, all four factions of them--there's senatus in the same bunch as julii, scipii,and brutii--you fight one you must fight all), the armenians, pontus, etc. sometimes 2 or 3 of them at the same time. then later on you fight the gauls, britons, germans, iberians,etc. with all this excitement, i wouldn't call the GREEKS a boring faction. (well, don't forget the rebels--but ALL factions fight the rebels anyway.) Hawooh!

[mrdun]

My current greek campaign is starting to go wrong, I have just taken the above settlements and was planning my attack when wave after wave of seleucids keep attacking me. holding out, for now

[wumpus]

My current greek campaign is starting to go wrong, I have just taken the above settlements and was planning my attack when wave after wave of seleucids keep attacking me. holding out, for now
yo, MRDUN. yeh, you'd expect that. if not seleucids, it'd have been armenians or pontus (pontians? pontids?) or maybe ptolemaics (thank god it's not ptolemaics in your case--they've got more resources) who'll clash with you in asia minor. just hold on with your hoplites, supported by your Rhodian slingers (do you have them in your army?) and maybe Cretan archers--or ordinary archers would not be much different. your foes are heavy on cavalry, with chariots usually. let them come to you; just hold your line with phallanx of hoplites, only you ought to have your (quite light, actually) militia cavalry to hold your flanks (just let them be there at your flanks, throwing javelins but at "fire-at-will" disabled, but let your hoplites do the actual fighting). it'd be a great help if you keep an inverted horse-shoe formation for your phallanx, to dispell his eating at your flanks. this is if you meet seleucus's whelps in open field--you'll have a slight advantage if it happens inside a forest.
if the seleucids assault your city, that's much better--hoplites are great defensive troops, and they'd really be in their element defending narrow streets--better if they have missile troops behind them to throw/shoot pointy stuff at them barbarians.
there are 2 threads, both with frogbeastegg: one about how to induce hoplites to charge, another about the merits of walls to defend your city or delay enemy attackers (one person who participated said walls are not that much use to repel attackers with catapults or towers or ladders). this is what i say: leave your walls and concentrate on defending your streets--far ahead from your plaza, if possible. let the enemy waste energy stoning your wall, spending useless time making assault towers, etc. your wall's towers will shower him with missiles, but your full effort should be with your hoplites at your narrow streets. and, about inducing your hoplites to charge--i say don't let them charge, but let your foes charge your wall of sarissas instead.
about his chariots? chariots are supposed to be terror weapons, but in my experience a solid wall of hoplites with pikes can be difficult to terrorize, especially when your own missile troops are peppering his general's bodyguard unit with fire arrows. just take good care that your own general doesn't get pelted by the enemy's arrows or slings in the bargain.
and read or re-read frogbeastegg's guides, esp. about spears-missiles inter-cooperation--her guides in RTW, MTW, and M2TW are great reading.
finally, it's a great pity if you're in crisis with seleucids and don't have Sparta or Syracuse among what you presently hold--this is the time when you direly need Spartan hopliotes that these 2 cities produce. but your militia pikemen aren't really THAT MUCH INFERIOR to spartans--they're quite capable of holding your line for you.
and in the event that one of your (overpopulated, squalid) cities gets the plague, turn your lemon into a lemonade--churn out a horde of spies and send them into his cities with your germs and squalor-fruit gift-wrapped for him. wage biological warfare on the seleucids, not just actual bashing and shooting.
just hold on there, man. after all, what we're doing is just a game. you wouldn't actually have you neck sliced if you lose this campaign.
HAWOOH!

[mrdun]

Thankyou for your technical lexis Wumpus :):):laugh4:

I play with Moral off in my preferences, allows me to "fight to the Death" <-- great stuff. The only place I have messed up is in Nicomedia, Pontus just wont leave it alone (ha! they will soon, i have nearly eradicated them :skull: ), I had a young gov'nor and four units of militia hoplites. They had half a stack of arab infantry and some missisle cav plus two rams. I put two units just behind the gate and two behind where i thought they would attack my wall. I guessed right but i was just overwhelmed and they broke through in both places. I didn't last much longer!!!:shame:

[wumpus]

mrdun-greetings. you know a curious thing happened this weekend. (just after my anti-seleucid posting.) i was greek warring against macedonia: they're down to their last city, larissa, but i wouldn't take it by siege yet-i infiltrated it with 2 of my spies bearing the plague from pella (mine, few turns back) and i won't enter till i've brought it to its knees with disease. (BEWARE THE GREEKS BEARING GIFTS!!!) at the same time, i was fighting the rebel greeks, took syracuse from them then proceeded to move to siege nicomedia with my Spartans and sundry other troops. the romans (my allies then, who were also allied to the seleucids) gifted me 1140 denarii (for my valorous conduct, AI told me.) when suddenly the seleucids besieged my halicarnassus--just one day after i posted my stuff in this forum. (i didn't react at once that turn-my halicarnassus could last the siege 7 turns) rome broke alliance from me (which is curious, having given me money that same turn). at any rate, lest this post turns into an AAR instead of an exchange of strategic & tactical tips, here's what i did: i diverted my spartans from the siege of nicomedia with a troop of peltasts, 1 troop of militia hoplites, and 1 general's unit, leaving the rest of my army besieging with a 2nd general, produced a troop of cretan archers in crete and a troop of rhodian slingers in rhodes (both to appear the following turn), and a militia cavalry in mytilene. next turn, i brought over my horses from mytilene (you don't need to move your ship-just place your ship in the strait in between, embark your troops, then disembark on the other side of the water), then hit one seleucid army with additional troops from pergamum & my spartan contingent rushing from nicomedia. victory, then the whole army rushed to hit the seleucids outside halicarnassus (which, by now, have grown to 2 armies!). another army from rhodes made an amphibious attack near halicarnassus. it broke the siege, so now i'm on my way to besiege sardis (together with my brand-new units from crete and rhodes). seleucids like to come in wave after wave of attackers, but i recall sun tzu: "approach in small batallions from various directions; attack together as a big army."
in the meantime, my ships hit the seleucid navy-they're stupid to travel in single-ship detachments: sank his 2 biremes and 2 triremes (in 6 different encounters) including his 3-star admiral! i used 3 fleets, one from waters off byzantium, 2nd from off pergamum, the 3rd from sparta, athens, and crete. the tactic: hit simultaneously from different directions, but size your units so that they can defend themselves (or at least hold out till reinforcements arrive).
it's too bad that you lost nicomedia (no-i haven't yet taken MY nicomedia from the rebels. siege still going on, but i'm in no hurry). just return some other time. losing one battle is not the point-it is winning the campaign that matters. me, my faction leader died in these same 2 turns, leaving sparta without a governor, and my heir (new faction leader) is stuck in salona without a ship to ride to my capital, exposed to the thracians (fortunately neutral at the moment), and the land route is dominated by plague. maybe the romans will strike me next turn (they're merely neutral right now) but they have 2 cities in sicily while i have the delicious-looking syracuse, and i've just stormed tarentum from the rebels (my troops were decimated, but i killed tarentum's defenders to the last man, including their king) and there are 3 full roman legions waiting like sharks outside my border (while my troops in tarentum have shrunk). there's a chance rome would consider my presence in tarantum a threat, or simply think tarantum would be a nice addition to their collection of italian cities.
but these are the fortunes of war. may the goddess fortuna smile on us both, and the goddess bellona be kind to us. Hawooh.

[Hound of Ulster]

In both RTR and vanilla Rome, I usually abandon Sciliy so I can deal with the Macedonians first. Control of the sea is critical with the Greeks, especially against the Romans.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

In both RTR and vanilla Rome, I usually abandon Sciliy so I can deal with the Macedonians first. Control of the sea is critical with the Greeks, especially against the Romans.

Vanilla: I prefer to shift one batch of good reinforcements -- usually including the spartans -- to Syracuse during the first few moves of the game. Syracuse is then on its own for a long while. Usually, I hold it through the course of a dozen+ sieges (sallies etc.), though sometimes I lose it. Either way, I bleed the Kartha and Romaoi in great cart loads and slow their development.

Makdon first is pretty well a necessity, of course, or you get hammered by the Bruti while they laugh.

[Fallen Angel]

Cretian Archers? Rhodian slingers? Can you please point me where I can download files to let me recruit these speciality units? (I'm assuming you meant the -normally- merc greek units.)

[Monsieur Alphonse]

You can edit the EDU (export_descr_units) and give ownership to the Greeks or the Greek_cities. Then edit the EDB (buildings) and let them train in the archery range.

I never abandon Sicily and I don't send reinforcements. Syracuse is strong enough to handle the Scipii and Carthage.

[Hound of Ulster]

I found in vanilla Rome that the best lure on to the massed hoplite phalanx was militia cav. As the militia cav automatically retire towards your main force when attacked, you can use them to lure your enemy unto the pikes of the hoplites. I beat several pontic armies this way and also badly worsted the Egyptians. The peltasts can serve the same function against the Roman factions, and can also make the Romans waste thier javelins.

In RTR, I attack and attack quickly, especially if I have Spartans and Athenians at my command.

[Quintus.JC]

I found playing the Greek cities rather easy. Largely due to the fact that they can recruit Armoured Hoplite in Minor cities, they can defeat any early units the Romans or the Macedonian could field. I was fighting a winning campaign but then gave up because I was fed up with their cavalry, apart from the general’s bodyguards all the other cavalry the Greeks could recruit are on the point of useless. While the infantry are too slow moving. Although I did enjoy siege battles with Greece, block the streets and the enemies shall not get in.

[wumpus]

Cretian Archers? Rhodian slingers? Can you please point me where I can download files to let me recruit these speciality units? (I'm assuming you meant the -normally- merc greek units.)
Yes--mercs for your opening game. Later, if you've held Crete and/or Rhodes long enough and deligently added improvements, yhou could locally recruit these archers and slingers. Don't worry too much--mercs are not all THAT expensive in RTW; but they surely ARE in MTW, and in M2TW the maintenance costs of mercs could bankrupt you. But it's okay in RTW--as a Greek with a number of decent fleets and ports, you ought to be able to make enough money to afford big-stick armies. Hawooh.

[wumpus]

I found playing the Greek cities rather easy... gave up because I was fed up with their cavalry...the other cavalry the Greeks could recruit are on the point of useless. While the infantry are too slow moving...
Ave. This, my dear 5thJulius, is the entire point of Total War: the balance of power. You got an infantry force almost impossible to vanquish (add in some missiles like slingers and archers) but, for the sake of balance, you've got a seemingly weak cavalry. Imagine if your force were Spartan hoplites supported by a couple of elephant units, merc archers and slingers, and heavy artillery such as the late Romans have, and perhaps you could find some merc Sarmatian cavalry or horse archers from Asia...I imagine the only way to defeat you is if brimstone rained down from heaven, but no human army can! So you have a strong (but slow-moving) infantry with weak cavalry for balance in the game (and it was how it really was in history).
But why don't you try using militia cavalry for your Greeks (of course, with a generous number of hoplites and some archers or slingers!)--your cav skirmishes with the enemy, throw some javelins, then retreat behind your phallanx, only to re-join the battle much later when it's time to chase down the routing enemies (who by this time wouldn't care about anything in the world at all except to reach the safety of the hills). Personally, I prefer militia cavalry over the (lancer) Greek cavalry--they're more useful to me. Only be careful: they run out of ammo very fast (and so do the peltasts)!!
Hawooh.

[mrdun]

Ave. This, my dear 5thJulius, is the entire point of Total War: the balance of power. You got an infantry force almost impossible to vanquish (add in some missiles like slingers and archers) but, for the sake of balance, you've got a seemingly weak cavalry. Imagine if your force were Spartan hoplites supported by a couple of elephant units, merc archers and slingers, and heavy artillery such as the late Romans have, and perhaps you could find some merc Sarmatian cavalry or horse archers from Asia...I imagine the only way to defeat you is if brimstone rained down from heaven, but no human army can! So you have a strong (but slow-moving) infantry with weak cavalry for balance in the game (and it was how it really was in history).
But why don't you try using militia cavalry for your Greeks (of course, with a generous number of hoplites and some archers or slingers!)--your cav skirmishes with the enemy, throw some javelins, then retreat behind your phallanx, only to re-join the battle much later when it's time to chase down the routing enemies (who by this time wouldn't care about anything in the world at all except to reach the safety of the hills). Personally, I prefer militia cavalry over the (lancer) Greek cavalry--they're more useful to me. Only be careful: they run out of ammo very fast (and so do the peltasts)!!
Hawooh.

The lack of cav makes the greeks rather one dimensional IMO:rtwno:

[Quintus.JC]

It's hard to chase down the routers without proper cavalry. at least early on the Roman had Equites, who are rather fine cavalry, but the Greeks really lacks any professonal cavalry at all. While their infantry can't march more than 2 miles an hour. making them a slow and rather boring faction. while i'd prefer Parthia over Greece. although the Greeks do have an interesting starting position

[mrdun]

They have money and powerful infantry. CA could not really give them more. The game needs to be balanced

[Quintus.JC]

They have money and powerful infantry. CA could not really give them more. The game needs to be balanced

True true.

[Good Ship Chuckle]

There is one constant complaint about the Greeks. Woeful calvary. I found a mild solution to a large problem. Clump your cavalry into concentrated group. Five militia cavalry bunched together is bound to provide for at least one decent flanking, right?

[mrdun]

Ahh the bunch and run technique!!:beam:

[Quintus.JC]

There is one constant complaint about the Greeks. Woeful calvary. I found a mild solution to a large problem. Clump your cavalry into concentrated group. Five militia cavalry bunched together is bound to provide for at least one decent flanking, right?

Militia cavalry is better used to chase routers after running out of ammos, Greek cavalry are better flankers when clumped into a concentrated group.

[Quirinus]

It's hard to chase down the routers without proper cavalry. at least early on the Roman had Equites, who are rather fine cavalry, but the Greeks really lacks any professonal cavalry at all. While their infantry can't march more than 2 miles an hour. making them a slow and rather boring faction. while i'd prefer Parthia over Greece. although the Greeks do have an interesting starting position
I disagree. True, the Militia Cav is pretty lousy-- their ammo runs out fast, and, charge them into anything other than other skirmishers, and you might as well have run them into a brick wall. But I always find it useful to have a couple of Militia Cav units in my army, as a screen against skirmishers, and for chasing routed troops, especially routed generals. With the Hoplite+Militia-Cav combo, I assassinated a lot of generals. The Equites.... well, they're okay, but they are neither faster than generals' bodyguards, nor do they pack a lot of punch, making them decent in the early game, but quickly becoming mediocre as the game progresses.

I don't particularly like the Greek Cavalry, for reasons similar to why I dislike the Equites, with one difference-- at Tier III, it is far too high-tier for its mediocre stats. Cavalry like these require constant retraining, something that is much easier to do with the Tier II Equites than it is with the Tier III Greek Cav. The only Greek Cavs I have in my army are a couple of them I got when I bribed a small Macedonian army outside Larissa, way back.

As for the phalanx, I suppose it's a different playing style. It's more deliberate, which IMO isn't too much of a drawback, as normal infantry does not maneuver exceptionally well anyway. Like the Parthians, if you play it like the good ol' Romans or Carthagenians, you're going to be really frustrated.

I like to think the Greek army composition as highly specialised-- the hoplites are pretty damn hard to dislodge once in position, but their flank is very vulnerable; the Militia Cavs are very fast, but have crappy ammo and melee stats.

[Quintus.JC]

I'd still prefer Macedon over Greece anyday.

[mrdun]

I'd still prefer Macedon over Greece anyday.
They both have pikes and money :greedy: but macedon do have the edge...their cav.

[Good Ship Chuckle]

I don't particularly like the Greek Cavalry, for reasons similar to why I dislike the Equites, with one difference-- at Tier III, it is far too high-tier for its mediocre stats. Cavalry like these require constant retraining, something that is much easier to do with the Tier II Equites than it is with the Tier III Greek Cav. The only Greek Cavs I have in my army are a couple of them I got when I bribed a small Macedonian army outside Larissa, way back.

I wish to emphasize this issue. On the campaign map, cavalry are the first units in your army to deteriorate. With that being said, you must be able to repair them with out having to hold up the rest of your army. Greek cavalry require Cavalry Stables in order to retrain, and in turn Cavalry Stables requires a minor city.
I'm sorry, but when your out in the frigid north slicing up barbarians, finding the nearest Calvary Stables to repair your pitiful greek cav is a logistical nightmare. Aquincum is a long walk from Sparta, if you know what I mean. :laugh4:

To ameliorate a big problem, I propose this...well... proposal. Use Militia Cavalry. I beseech you. Use them!! First of all, by the time 250 BC rolls around, any Large Town that is worth it's salt, is going to have a Stables. This solves the before mentioned logistical nightmare.

Second reason. Any Rome Total War player worth his salt on the battle field will be able to find a way to use them effectively. My personal way to use them, is to overlap them in groups of 2+ on either side of your army. Now that they are bunched up they support each other's morale, and significantly add to each other's shock value. I don't care if you're even an Urban Cohort, if 4 tightly packed malitia cavalry are about slam into your flank, you're gonna feel it. :whip:
A word to the wise though: Make sure that you turn off fire at will, lest you suffer untold amounts of friendly fire. Also, make sure you attack your target while holding <alt>, otherwise your malitia cav will only throw javalins and play a dainty game of skirmish with the Urbans.~:cheers:

Maybe my battlefield tactic requires a little bit of micro management, but the convenience it provides on the campaign map more than makes up for it. What I'm trying to post is that if your an greek faction player, you should give the malitia cavalry a chance. Have a little faith in them, and they will far surpass your expectations.:bow:

[wumpus]

Ahoy, Good Ship. Yeh, you really said what I would've said: my sentiments exactly--use militia cav, turn off fire-at-will, etc. But here's what I'll add: when you play RTW (or any _TW or their offshoots) you really are the imperator--those many generals only serve under you. But also, even if you're the supreme commander, you can't really choose the type of troops you feel you really should have. It depends on the people (culture=faction) you play, the state of urban development, your wealth and economy, etc. In short, what troops are available to you, let your military talent show as to how you extract your victory. I had one past battle as Greek when all I had were one archer unit, one armored hoplite, and 6 militia hoplites--and was able to defeat the Seleucids with a chariot unit (which is more of merely a terror unit, actually) and some (maybe 3 or 4) cavalry, with the Eastern Infantry. Well, it was another Phyrrhic victory, in fact I lost more men than just decimated, but the point is Greeks are poor in cavalry and you've got to do what much good you can do with the situation. The main point is, enjoy the game that you're playing; enjoy even your defeats. Hawooh.
@ QuintusJulius: Well, like I said in the RTW-vs-M2TW thread (the issue was, which of the 2 is the better game to play), one man's poison is another man's candy. You don't like to play Greeks that much, well O.K. Me, I enjoy the challenge (difficulty) of the uphill fight as Greek, with my lousy cavalry+great but slow infantry+whatever mercs my money can afford. I whipped Romans and Macedonians in 2 different campaigns playing Greek, and will do so again in the future, and I'm happy. You should be happy with your Macedonians too, maybe you could become the next Megas Alexandros and conquer all lands from Britain to India. Hawooh.

[Good Ship Chuckle]

Well said, noble wumpus.
The beauty of this game is that it picks you up and drops you straight into the shoes of the generals back then. The generals didn't always get the troops they wanted, but they still had to fight. This game mirrors that feeling. Sure, it would be nice to sprinkle in some heavy cavalry to go along with the spartans, but that isn't an option.

What we have to say can be best summed up in the quote by Confucius:
Adversity reveals the true genius of a general, good fortune conceals it.

Some may see the greek's cavalry as only being a detriment, but I see it as a way to consecrate my skills as a battlefield general. It's a way to show that the sweat off my back is of greater importance in battle than any unit's stats, no matter how poor.:knight:

[Quirinus]

And, it emulates the apprehension a general must feel when he sees an army three times the size of his own, and the elation after victory in a particularly grisly battle. In fact, I just conquered Capua in my Greek game. :D The Brutii went down easier because I sunk two fleets full of family members and dangerous units, but I had no such luck with the Scipii.

Another thing fun about playing as the Greeks-- with the craploads of money you make per turn, bribing is much easier, and since you are practically surrounded by other Greek factions, bribing not only weakens your foes, but strengthens your own military as well. A high point was when I stormed Thrace-owned Byzantium with troops I just bribed from them outside the city.


They both have pikes and money :greedy: but macedon do have the edge...their cav.
Yeah, but Macedon's phalanx units don't hold a candle to the true-blue Greek ones. I dunno, but for me, I could never get back to the sarissae phalanx after experiencing the Armoured Hoplite.

[Quintus.JC]

Pikemen seems to rout too easily when assulted on the flanks or rear, but hoplites tend to stay and fight longer when that happens, espcially Spartan and Armoured.

[Hound of Ulster]

the Spartans never break, while the armoured hopilites cut through Roman pre-reform infantry like a hot knife through butter.

[Hannibalbarc]

the Spartans never break, while the armoured hopilites cut through Roman pre-reform infantry like a hot knife through butter.
Very true, but they also take care of legionary cohorts easily and can beat urbans as long as they don't get flanked.

[Good Ship Chuckle]

In my opinion, the best way to determine how good a hoplite is, is to judge how well they fight when they don't have their enemy pinned to their spear points.:7detective:

[Paradox]

I'm currently playing a Greek campaign for the first time. I'm still on my Sicilian campaign and managed to occupy Lilybaeum, I'm aiming towards the Scipii city. In Greece, I besieged the Macedonian city north of Sparta to secure my journey to Athens, which is currently rebel-held. The Brutii, reaching Apollonia, still have not attacked, I'm trying my best to strengthen the nearest city to them. Meanwhile in the Asia minor, I established trade rights between Pontus, the Seleucids, and I. I just hope the Seleucids won't backstab me on my road to Constantinople.

[wumpus]

In my opinion, the best way to determine how good a hoplite is, is to judge how well they fight when they don't have their enemy pinned to their spear points.:7detective:
Ahoy, Good Ship Chuckle. Try this one: you're assaulting an enemy city--stone walls--your hoplites have climbed up the ladders (after the unit that has carried the ladder to the wall)--you slug it out with the defenders at the battlements. Your hoplites would fight without their spears up there. NOW you may test your hoplites' mettle with their swords only. That would be interesting to discover how they'd fare. Hawooh.

[mrdun]

On a wall, Roman Legions should easily be able to kill off units of hopltes using swords, otherwise hoplites would be overpowered IMO

[Hannibalbarc]

In my opinion, the best way to determine how good a hoplite is, is to judge how well they fight when they don't have their enemy pinned to their spear points.:7detective:
Well if your fighting the ai that doesnt happen often, at least not to me.

[Good Ship Chuckle]

Ahoy, Good Ship Chuckle. Try this one: you're assaulting an enemy city--stone walls--your hoplites have climbed up the ladders (after the unit that has carried the ladder to the wall)--you slug it out with the defenders at the battlements. Your hoplites would fight without their spears up there. NOW you may test your hoplites' mettle with their swords only. That would be interesting to discover how they'd fare. Hawooh.


I've already been down that path once before. BBAAADDDD!!!!:wall:
Read this so you don't make the same mistake I did!

(Played on Hard)
My army: Full professional stack of armoured hoplites.
Scipii army: A motely crew of Principes, hastati, and samnite mercearies.

I built only siege towers as siege equipment and and began the battle the same as any other. I was feeling very confident until I began noticing serious red numbers plummiting on my unit cards. Upon further examination I noticed that hastati were making mince meat of my amoured hoplites. Now alarmed (but still confident because I had plenty of hoplites to burn yet), I was forced put my reserve siege towers into place (in order to flank the walltop troops), because I knew a fair fight would kill me.

This phyrric process continued, until I made sure every clump of scipii was surrounded by two clumps of armoured hoplites. Only then were my hoplites able to take out the hastati and samnite mercenaries. That's right. I was losing armoured hoplites down the last god-forsaken samnite mercenary!:furious3:

My casualty ratio on the walltop was easily 4:1.

Having captured the walls, I then proceeded to the square with my dumb-founded general and a couple of shell-shocked hoplites. I had lost so much blood on the wall top that I was unable to recover. I then sprinted to the square in vain to outrun the last few minutes I had remaining. I ended up losing the battle because of time. :surrender2:
This battle happened about six months ago, and yet it has been seared into my memory to make it seem like it happened yesterday.

MORAL OF THE STORY.
Never force the hoplites to fight with their swords on the walltop. They fare much better as a coordinated phalanx. AKA, use sap points to break in on ground level (use phalanx), isolate sections of the avenue, and then porceed to the square. [However, make sure you have a unit on the wall tops to capture the towers, lest you be pelted to death by them] Phalanges are excellent in seiges, both attacking and defending. Just keep your spear down, and it will not fail.:bow:

This link also statistically shows that phalanges are inferior with the sword.
http://totalwar.co.kr/rome/indexx.html
(look them up under the Greek Cities)

[Hannibalbarc]

I agree with chuckle, never get hoplites to fight on walls, in fact I never fight on walls at all except of I'm roman.

[Punicus]

I agree with chuckle, never get hoplites to fight on walls, in fact I never fight on walls at all except of I'm roman.Amen. A long while back I foolishly attempted it and ended up with around 1000 men dead when I could have just made a sap point. Silly me.

On the subject of cavalry... I never saw a problem with Greek cavalry, or even militias. They're definitely not where you want to be when you're talking about your top cavalry unit, but I'm also a fan of bunching them all together in the tight formation (not sure who mentioned that before). In this way they are surprisingly effective. I guess you just have to make due with what you have.

Otherwise, I'm completely in love with the Greeks. They are amazingly wealthy. The circle of trade between Rhodes and the three cities on the west coast of Asia Minor brings in so much cash.

I'm currently playing as them, with all of Greece, Macedonia, Asia Minor, and Northern Italy under my control. The Julii are giving me a run for my money but otherwise looks good. They're a very fun campaign to play. =)

[Hannibalbarc]

I dont know about you guys but it seems to me that whenever you charge cavalry into the back of a phalanx they(the cavalry) still lose a lot of men, not that I'm complaining but I've seen a unit of spartans pinned by urbans and charged by praetorian cavalry in the back, and instead of routing, the spartans ended up breaking the cav and the urbans routing because the cav routed.

[Punicus]

Yeah, I have noticed that. It's mostly with the weaker cavalry units. But it was pretty much fixed for me by making them into the one big mass of units.

[wumpus]

@GoodShipChuckle. You asked, I pointed one way to find out an answer, I didn't know you've gone that wy before. So, now you know how hoplites do without spears & without the phallanx. MORAL: when you have hoplites, they always come with spears and in a phallanx. That always comes as a package--take away one part, you no longer have a package.

@Hannibalbarc. Yes, that should happen. This is what I think why: in real combat, most of the phallanx elements would be fighting the urbans, sure, but if some of the enemy sneaked behind to engage, I think the rear ranks of a real formation, being made up of real human-being kind of soldiers, would of course face about and face the new threat. It's only in games like the various TW's (and others which copy them) where we sometimes forget that the soldiers are humans with a propensity for self-preservation. As long as the phallanx isn't broken up, you would realy score some enemy dead over there. And yes: totalwar092 is right--only with weaker cav units. The main factors, I think, are the cav unit's discipline, morale, and armor.

Hawooh.

[Good Ship Chuckle]

@GoodShipChuckle. You asked, I pointed one way to find out an answer, I didn't know you've gone that wy before. So, now you know how hoplites do without spears & without the phallanx. MORAL: when you have hoplites, they always come with spears and in a phallanx. That always comes as a package--take away one part, you no longer have a package.


In retrospect, it was odd to ask a question when I already knew the answer, but my small statement did generate quite a bit of insight.

It was also nice to be able to vent a little. I still have some anxeity issues because of that battle. Every time I begin a siege with phalanges, a little voice in the back of my head is laughing at me.:bigcry:

[wumpus]

In retrospect, it was odd to ask a question when I already knew the answer, but my small statement did generate quite a bit of insight.:

Ahoy. That's the beauty of this whole idea--forums (fora?) where somebody vents his thoughts and get some others to react with their own ideas. You know, it improves everybody's game who heeds, and one could share words of advise, opinion, dirty tricks, etc., which your own next-door neighbor would not understand--or care about.
But, somewhere along the way, I gain 2 things: (1) I've learned several tons' worth of info (knowledge, even) about the ancient Greeks (whom I like), Romans (whom I admire) and other civilizations which erstwhile I wouldn't much care about. (2) =THE BETTER PART= I've made plenty of friends here, have some friendly exchange of thoughts. These fora are great, man! They keep me coming back for more. Hawooh.

[Good Ship Chuckle]

Well said noble Wumpus.
That is the whole point of fora (as you inferred). To exchange ideas with people who are in a similiar situation as yourself. I think the ancient Greeks would be proud of us. Creating and participating in institutions for the sole purpose of exchanging ideas to streamline our lives. In this case, our RTW gameplay.:book:

Post Script: Lucky you. This is the second time you've started the next page of posts. :)

[wumpus]

Well said noble Wumpus.

Post Script: Lucky you. This is the second time you've started the next page of posts. :)
Ahoy. Yes, it's just luck--pure and simple. Like when you thought you'd lose a battle to an enemy 3 times your number but the battleground turns out to have a seashore on one side (protecting a flank) and there's a forest conveniently nearby to hide in and minimize the enemy's horses and arrows.
Giving my best to you. Hawooh.

[Good Ship Chuckle]

I finally found out how to create screenshots (THANK YOU PRINT SCREEN BUTTON!), so as a result I thought I might post the final screenshot of my Greek Campaign to give you a better feel of my campaign Wumpus, or anyone else for that matter.

Notice that even in my most elite army, I still have militia cavalry as my most advanced cav. :laugh4: No shame in that. Militia cav are excellent when used correctly, but I've already ranted enough about the gift of Militia cav in previous posts. I thought I would take Alexandria and Memphis, as a nice way to end the game, however I was disappointed. When I got there, the garrisons were small, and were easily pushed aside by the Spartans. Oh, well. At least it looks nice on the campaign map. :)
Also, note my faction leader's name. Memno the Killer! :2thumbsup: That's what you get when you try to assasinate anything that moves.:laugh4:

Anyways, comments, if ya please> ~:handball:

https://img138.imageshack.us/img138/4035/greekendam5.th.png (https://img138.imageshack.us/my.php?image=greekendam5.png)

Yes. You are not mistaken. The Gauls do own Susa, Bostra, and Dumatha. I didn't want to end the campaign until I captured Lower Egypt, so I ended up just giving them to the Gaul because they were my allies. lol at the thought of pale skinned Guals yelling at the arabians to fan them harder. :)

[Quintus.JC]

326 B.C seems too fast to finish a campaign. i prefer to handle things nice and slow. I never completed the Greek campaign because of their lack of good cavalry. also the Greeks lacks real tactics. all you do is form a long line with your hoplites and wait for the enemy charge, after a while poking your enemy half to death they'd run away and there's no way of catching them. that is really annoying. I like a balanced faction but the formidable Greek hoplites could win you every battle. The AI doesn't seems too bothered about flanking so it really isn't much fun.

[The Wandering Scholar]

*236, gosh you gave me a scare then. Yes, I like to expand only when attacked/ ally is attacked. If I strengthen my borders and garrisons then I am prety much never attacked. And when I am they have prepared, two/three full stacks. Well done CA, finally glimpses of AI brains.

[Good Ship Chuckle]

326 B.C seems too fast to finish a campaign.

The greek campaign was a short campaign, but I like campaigns when they are short, fast, and exhillarating!

Also the Greeks are perfectly cut out for it. What are you going to do in Syracuse? Wait patiently until the Scipii bust your back? No. Agressive. Agressive. Agressive!! :whip:

[Hannibalbarc]

The greek campaign was a short campaign, but I like campaigns when they are short, fast, and exhillarating!

Also the Greeks are perfectly cut out for it. What are you going to do in Syracuse? Wait patiently until the Scipii bust your back? No. Agressive. Agressive. Agressive!! :whip:
Thats my style of play, go to war with everybody, expand in all directions, if you make allies they are gonna betray you sooner or later anyway, better to go to war with them than let them surprise you by attacking your undefended front.

[wumpus]

I finally found out how to create screenshots...Anyways, comments, if ya please> ~:handball:

https://img138.imageshack.us/img138/4035/greekendam5.th.png (https://img138.imageshack.us/my.php?image=greekendam5.png)

0
Ahoy, GSC. Awesome army! Your screenshot tells me many things: 1. Despite your defeat at thei hands, you DID beat the Seleucids at the end; 2. Your transfer of residence to Asia did you very well--you made much money to buy a half-army of Spartans (that is, which are visible--maybe you have another stack or two where some more Spartans are holing out); 3. You did win with only a couple of militia cavalry (if it had been me, with what money you seem to have I'd have hired a couple of Sarmatian cavs instead, to be on the safer side); 4. Nice show of diplomacy--giving your Gaulish allies some land (that should make them ecstatic) but posing no great threat to you in the future--Arabia's too far from their capital. Great show, matey! Kinda little short campaign, though. But anyway, that's what you wanted--short campaign but it hits right at the gut. Like some swordsmen: they enjoy fencing with their opponent for a long time, other swordsmen would like to stab and slash, ending the bout with about only three elegant strokes then the killing blow.
Hawooh.:2thumbsup:

[Good Ship Chuckle]

Thanks for all the feedback about my campaign!:7detective:
However, I don't want to give all the credit to myself. There was a link that I discovered deep in the bowels of this forum somewhere, long ago before I became a member. It was what inspried me to create such blitzkrieg as fast as I did. I have it under my favourites.

Best Comprehensive Greek Guide Ever. (http://www.geocities.com/AMD_4EVER/Rome/main.html)

This guy finished the campaign in 257 BC!! Makes my campaign look likes its going at a snail's pace. And all the evidence is there. Pretty much every battle, and its stats is all there. He explains how you have to fight on three fronts at the beginning: Sicily, Greece, and Anatolia. However, there is one point that I would like to emphasize. Taking Messana the first turn. It's the perfect way to start out a blitz game. He explains in great detail how its done, and then tops it off with a screenshot of Messana with out any garrison, on the first turn. Simply beautiful.

If you ever plan on using the Greeks, you have to at least peruse the beginning of this guide. It's a goldmine of information.

Is this not the best greek guide ever?:wink3:

[Quintus.JC]

257B.C! I can't even finish my short campaign in that amount of time.

[Good Ship Chuckle]

257B.C! I can't even finish my short campaign in that amount of time.
And he played on VH/H. That's something to be proud of. But to appreciate the true genius of his campaign, you have to read it in detail. His original faction leader, Kleomenes of Sparta, finally died in Iuvavum and 2 years before he completed the game. :2thumbsup:

[Quintus.JC]

Is this not the best greek guide ever?:wink3:

Yes it is.:2thumbsup:

[Hound of Ulster]

gah that was quick. I guess I shouldn't give up Magna Graecia.:book:

[Good Ship Chuckle]

I think you mean the province Sicilia Graecus (Syracuse).
But yes, if you want to play a lightning fast game, forfeiting settlements is not an option.

[The Wandering Scholar]

The beggining is the most important time for a blitz. Also playing on VH/H the campaign difficulty means that sally's are more common as on VH campaign the AI is very agressive. Also I notice he said he would not use exploits but he lines up in the corners of the map..

[Quirinus]

Wow. Didn't notice this until now. That's pretty impressive, actually, but my playing style is different. I tend to play a slow game, taking my time to Hellenise those filthy barbarians. That's why I don't like playing as barbarian factions so much -- the squalor always becomes a big problem even in the early mid-game.

[Hound of Ulster]

I always call the Greek territories in Southern Italy 'Magna Graecia', because it sounds better.

[Quintus.JC]

Squlor always becomes a huge problem with the Carthagians and the Egyptians. dispite being civilised factions they're unable to build health care beyond public bath. not helped by the fact both faction usually have an insane growth rate in alot of the major cities.

[Mouzafphaerre]

.

add_population "city" -10000
.

[Quintus.JC]

.

add_population "city" -10000
.

Thanks for the tip, but i prefer not to use cheat codes. Is there any great way to deal with the squalor problem without doing anything supernatural.

[Punicus]

Take all of your troops out of the city, let it rebel, destroy the army and exterminate the population. Had to do this a couple times myself with Carthage. I'm not sure if there's any better way once it gets to a certain point.

[Good Ship Chuckle]

I've actually never found the public sewers, baths etc, to be very effective and taking away squalor. Maybe 10% subraction at the most. The only real benefit the health facilities give to public order is the heart icons they add on the positives of public order, under settlement details.

The way I deal with squalor is to know the cities where it is most prone to strike, and then build public order buildings (temples etc) en masse. Such cities like this are Corduba, Carthage, Patavium (:wall:), Antioch, Alexandria, Memphis, Byzantium, Selucia, and a few more. My strategy is relying on my prior experience, and knowing which cities that squalor is prone to.

[Quintus.JC]

Take all of your troops out of the city, let it rebel, destroy the army and exterminate the population. Had to do this a couple times myself with Carthage. I'm not sure if there's any better way once it gets to a certain point.

I used to do this as well, but don't you make more money with a higher population?

[Punicus]

I've never noticed a significant difference in my income after exterminating the populace of a settlement. I'd like to think it would catch my eye quickly but I may have not been paying attention, so I could be wrong. ~:)

[The Wandering Scholar]

you lose major taxes but gain insane amountsnof money. Plus with a Roman faction you could have it as a senate mission to retake it, giving you an added bonus.

[Quintus.JC]

you lose major taxes but gain insane amountsnof money. Plus with a Roman faction you could have it as a senate mission to retake it, giving you an added bonus.

With the Romans I don’t have to do such a thing because I’m able to build advanced health projects. The real trouble comes with Egypt and Carthage; both have insane population growth and no health buildings. I’m constantly hit with the plague in larger cities.

[bonzeben23]

I find myself agreeing with the original poster, however, whenever i launch a major invasion i attempt to get me a couple of major armies. However, you have to count on luck as much as your skill in combat. I once got super lucky and the scippi had put all of their factions family members in the same city. I had then sacked them because I had managed to slaughter them all with my super amazing archers and cavalry.

[Quirinus]

Health buildings don't only increase public order, they also increase population growth, so health is a short-term solution at best. I like to build peasant units and then send them out to underpopulated towns to give them a boost towards a higher tier. For example, you could send those peasants from Carthage to Nepte.

[Quintus.JC]

Carthage pumps troop non-stop. But they are normally high tier ones. Especially elephants and SB cavalry.

[wumpus]

I'm not really sure which of these areas would make you get richer faster (as Greek, in either vanilla RTW or with XGM): developing your economic buildings in the Sicily/Magna Grecia area or doing it in the Rhodes/Asia area. Or would it be the Nile Delta area (considering that the Delta is very fertile, plus the seaport capability of Alexandria)? I mean, without taking into consideration the military/strategy aspects. Opinions, anyone? Hawooh.

[Quintus.JC]

I personally fancy the Nile Delta. The trade, farming and population growth are all excellent. The only lacking is mines, which are found in the Balkans, but I guess the grains made up for that.

[Emperor Mithdrates]

I need space and I need It fast.
First I focus on ports. Your empire stretches out across the oceans and if School history taught me anything its that if you want to maintain an overseas empire rule the waves. Then while my shores are being protected i focus main recruiting in syracuse in Sicily. When the scipii attack, and they will, I have a suprise force waiting for them. I turn the tables, ally myself with Cartage and drive the Roman scum into the Sea where My Supreme navy (told you you'll need them) whipe out the scipii Army and sink their ships.:thinking2:
(it looks like hes drowning, he)

I then fortify My greek cities (which have been creating units the whole time) and launch two attacks on Macedonia and the ever present House of brutii.
Then; because I now own the Romano/scipii city of Capua, I march my troops down from there and use my Navy to cross from greece and squash the Brutii territory smaller and smaller until its destroyed making my path to Rome (and Victory Clear)
:turtle:
"March!"

[Quintus.JC]

You seems to be playing an fast paced game, which is un familar with me. I prefer to slowly vanqush my ememies one at a time. allying yourself with Carthage on a hard leveled game seems to bring betrayl most of the time. especially if you hold Srycuse and Messina, attracting their attention, plus if you try to capture Capua and Tanratum early on wouldn't that bring the divine intervention of the Senate, who has one full-stack troops full of exprinenced Triarii and co. Ports are very healthy though, which increase trade by an awsome amount, but it is sometimes unreliable if you have no one to trade with or if it's blocked. although they are the best option for economical structure.

[The Wandering Scholar]

You play a lot like me Cicero, I am very defensive and I enjoy making money.

[Good Ship Chuckle]

I prefer the inverse. I enjoy massive offensives and squeezing every denarius out of my economy and then putting it straight to use. :whip:

[Quintus.JC]

I try to get along with factions that don't bother me; especially if they were allies historically I will try to repeat history. On the money case I used to try to keep as money as possible, saving every penny, normally having around 300K. But then after discovering the corrupt traits I keep my treasury under 50K, all the extra money had to be spent somehow, on the army, useless buildings, evening giving it away is acceptable.

[salemty]

im just gonna say ur greatest tools as greece are ur rich citys walls and navy. have a strong navy to prevent the brutii armys from crosssing the sea. using this tactik i have 45k huge army and havnt had to fight brutii once

[Ibn-Khaldun]

I also play fast paced game cause with the greeks thats the only way to do it ..
You just need to destroy some neighbors early because I have found that nobody likes greeks :no:
In my greek campaign about month ago I was at war with the romans, carthage, pontus, macedon, seleucids and germans(just because I had conquered the Massilia and they had decided to attack me with their huge army of 3 units the next turn :wall: ) .. and the date was just 250BC :inquisitive:
Also .. the senate hardly leaves from Latium .. they just stay next to Rome or hide there army in to that forest north-east of Rome .. they will attack if you are close to the borders of Latium tough ...
Ports bring in a lot of cash even if you fight with everyone around you .. I got every turn over 10k and this was just the beginning of the game .. Colossus of Rhodes helps a lot :2thumbsup:

[linkdrago]

my thing is you get attacked by the Scipio family or Carthage on Sicily, then at thermon by the brutii, if you get Athens quick enough and take that then u can build a army there to be able to attack the brutii family, but the next thing i would do is go straight up to a stone wall at sparta but with the greeks i would just say slowly take greece and maybe some of turkey

[Darkvicer98]

My Strategy of the Greeks is to take Corinth and Athens then Larissa in Greece. Since you now own Greece and withstanded the attack on Syracuse attack Messana on Sicily. In Asia Minor take Halicarnassus. Then ship an army to Crete and take Kydonia. Theres now a really good sea trade in the Aegean. Take the Macedon settlement North of Greece and Sardis once the other Seleucid settlements have fallen to the Eastern Factions. Watch out for attacks on Thermon by the Brutii.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Send your Spartan hops and a choice merc or two to Syracuse early on. Athens and Kydonia should be acquired quickly, as should Halicarnassus. Enslave rather than exterminate -- but keep a governor in Thermon (and nowhere else, even if your camping just outside as the battles are each resolved) so that you can get Thermon rapidly to stone wall status.

Thermon and Syracuse can then be used as breakwaters. No army is better set to defend stone walls than the greeks. Cretans and Rhodians shooting from the walls, spears greeting anyone who forces a gate or tries to get through the streets to the square, a general flashing in on the flank when they turn th wrong corner -- THIS the greeks do well. Both cities will be repeatedly attacked, but properly defended can end up being places to bleed the Scips and Brutes white. This lets you slowly build your economy while acquiring Corinth after the inevitable betrayel of Macedonia. Just let the Romaoi bleed at those two spots, reinforcing gradually.

Build a support army to fend of Macedon (and snap up Larissa if they screw up), to reinforce/help Thermon as needed, and to squash any Julii force landing near the isthmus. Build a stronger force in Asia minor to contend with the Selkies, Eggies, & Pontics -- once you've expanded to good borders (mountain passes and rivers), you can turn back to the Macedonians. Remember, defeating those sons of Alexander means a wider front for the war with the Brutes -- be ready to hammer back and follow through into Italy.

[RollingWave]

the RTR version of the Greek campagin is even more... interesting.

starting at 280 bc they basically gave them the Kingdom of Epirius and the Aetolion league. at this stage the succession wars of Alexander had reached one climax, with the Kingdom of Selucid , Ptolmy firmy entrenched in Persia and Egypt, and fighting to a stalemate in Syria, while Lysimachus also carved out a empire in the eastern Asia Minor and Byzantium area.

Back in Macedonia, Pyrrhus, king of Epirus and cousin to Alexender the great tried to annex the throne with the help of Lysimachus but was throw out after a brief stint.

In 281 BC though, all hell broke loose as the last two great generals of Alexander both died in short succession, Lysimachus was killed in a war against the Seleucus, and his kingdom crumbled, as Selucus and the Ptlomic and Macedonian King scramble to absorb his holdings, Seleucus himself was assinated.

With Pyhrrus on the outside looking in, the different Hellenstic faction reached an rare agreement, as the Italian Greek Colony of Tartenum was threatened by the new rising Roman Republic, an agreement was made for all 3 major kingdom to supply Pyhrrus with an large army to defend and develop italy into a new Hellenstic stronghold. this also send a major throne in their back looking the other way while they concentrate on carving up what was Lysimachus' realm.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So in RTR, the greek city starts with Athens, Sparta, half of Crete, the Kingdom of Epirus (south of the Illyrian, west of Macedon) , two Greek colony on the Italian and Syracus, Byzantium.

Much like vinilla, your under threat from all sides, but this time even more scary as you have no just 2 front, but more like 6 front.

Rome will come bearing down on Pyrrhus' huge arse army quickly, while Syracus will be under assault from Carthage, you start at Peace with Macedon and at war with the Ptlomic , but that'll change very quickly. as all your holdings in the area is in contact with them. it's a messy situation.

You'll also lose money very quickly if you don't act, because you start with a unit of elephants that cost almost 3000$ in UPKEEP. your better horsemans also cost 600 or so in upkeep, as is your Spartan.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm sure many here play RTR or RTRPE, so how would you approach the Greeks in the RTR setting?

[wumpus]

Seamus, my noble friend, once more I learn a tip or two from you. Megathanks. It's those little things that can be added by bits to what humble (and sometimes humbling) experience I have that continue to make me enjoy RomeTW so much--and it's having an exchange of ideas with people sharing the same craze as I do that makes playing even more enjoyable.
Hi there, RollingWave of Taiwan. Because of your post up there, I"m finally convinced to try RTR very soon in the future. I have tried vanilla, then XGM, and trying to wrestle with EB 1.1--shifting from one to the other (and loving it each time). Maybe I'll try RTR this time.
Hawooh.

[Motep]

the RTR version of the Greek campagin is even more... interesting.

starting at 280 bc they basically gave them the Kingdom of Epirius and the Aetolion league. at this stage the succession wars of Alexander had reached one climax, with the Kingdom of Selucid , Ptolmy firmy entrenched in Persia and Egypt, and fighting to a stalemate in Syria, while Lysimachus also carved out a empire in the eastern Asia Minor and Byzantium area.

Back in Macedonia, Pyrrhus, king of Epirus and cousin to Alexender the great tried to annex the throne with the help of Lysimachus but was throw out after a brief stint.

In 281 BC though, all hell broke loose as the last two great generals of Alexander both died in short succession, Lysimachus was killed in a war against the Seleucus, and his kingdom crumbled, as Selucus and the Ptlomic and Macedonian King scramble to absorb his holdings, Seleucus himself was assinated.

With Pyhrrus on the outside looking in, the different Hellenstic faction reached an rare agreement, as the Italian Greek Colony of Tartenum was threatened by the new rising Roman Republic, an agreement was made for all 3 major kingdom to supply Pyhrrus with an large army to defend and develop italy into a new Hellenstic stronghold. this also send a major throne in their back looking the other way while they concentrate on carving up what was Lysimachus' realm.

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So in RTR, the greek city starts with Athens, Sparta, half of Crete, the Kingdom of Epirus (south of the Illyrian, west of Macedon) , two Greek colony on the Italian and Syracus, Byzantium.

Much like vinilla, your under threat from all sides, but this time even more scary as you have no just 2 front, but more like 6 front.

Rome will come bearing down on Pyrrhus' huge arse army quickly, while Syracus will be under assault from Carthage, you start at Peace with Macedon and at war with the Ptlomic , but that'll change very quickly. as all your holdings in the area is in contact with them. it's a messy situation.

You'll also lose money very quickly if you don't act, because you start with a unit of elephants that cost almost 3000$ in UPKEEP. your better horsemans also cost 600 or so in upkeep, as is your Spartan.

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I'm sure many here play RTR or RTRPE, so how would you approach the Greeks in the RTR setting?

Currently playing the romans on RtR. Ill let you a strategy once I play greek

[WarDad]

Greek Cities (H/H)

I am making incredible progress, due to starting out on the right sandle.
24 regions now, y259, Rome vanquised, last Roman city under siege.

First Turn: Sicily,Attacked Romans outside of city, heroic victory.
City resouces are now mine, and more importantly they are denied to the enemy.
OK how to: use all troops and approach Romans, now hire mercs.
Attack Romans, win, send mercs back to garrison your city, enter undefended Roman city.

First Turn: Take Corinth.
Move Spy to Corinth, Approach Corinth and Hire mercs. Siege Corinth.
Good fortune the gates were open by the spy, so I take it.
(Huh? The gates shoudn't be open the same turn the Spy enters the city, but this is the 1st turn).

Next: Take Larissa. Deny the resources to the Macidonians. Mop up or chase away scattered Macidonians, don't let them combine strength until you can build up more troops.
Take out their two remaining cities early, especially Thessa-whatever. (Thessalonica?).
Then I went back for the independants, Athens and etc...

Sicily: I waited for the Romans to take the 3rd city from Carthage.
Now I can take it and keep my valuable Carthage trading partner.


Greek Advantages:
Militia Hopololites - better than town watch, only 230 gold. (large unit size). Good fodder.
Good attack, but takes some micro managment to get them to run around enemy flanks.
Also the lowest units benifit quite a bit from blacksmith, temple bonuses, and experience.
Armoured Hop... - will fight off the heaviest calvery, even scythed chariots. Laughs at dogs.
Money... In the early game you can easily buy mercs. So many large cities so close to the capital.
Order... In the early game you are retaking Greek territory, complete with Greek buildings.
No need to slaughter or enslave peaceful tax paying Greek citizens.
You also need the fodder for the army.

[Mek Simmur al Ragaski]

I'm not entirely sure how to play as the Greeks, because I only seem to be successful with a Phalanx if I'm using it in defence. The cavalry isn't particularly good either, and the empire is so spread out its hard to keep track of. Fighting Brutii and Macedon at the same time is just overpowering in my opinion, if you had some non-phalanx units it might be easier...

[peacemaker]

i dunno...i use an all-phalanx or almost-all phalanx, sometimes with a general or archers(usually no more than 2 archers), and probably a half stack at best. i seem to be able to pin the enemy, then circle to the side of it with another phalanx, and just start cutting them from both sides. if that doesn't work, i just use my general to execute hammer and anvil attacks

[WarDad]

The Greeks can afford to hire mercs to round out their ranks.
Hopolites will run if you turn off the phalanx formation. Charging into the enemys rear is worth it.

The Senate assigns missions, and you can really mess that up.
If you take Massana (Sicily) from the Scipii they lose 1 of their 2 cities, totally nerfing them.
The mission to take Carthage's 1 Sicilian city will fall on Brutti and/or Julli.
They get distracted from their main objectives, the Greek Cities and Gaul.
This buys you time, time to hurt Macedon before they can build up and come after you.

Keep building troops on Sciliy to deter attack, and to take the 3rd city from the Romans who conquer it. Of course your budget will get depleted, and you may have to resort to peasant garissons in Sparta and Corinth for a while. I later used the peasants to repopulate Thermon. However you biggest challenge is to hold onto to Larissa while your economy picks up (build ports and roads). I had 7 cities vs. Macedons 2 cities at that point. I quickly built up economy & troops then took advantage of a dumb Macedonian mistake. Thasalonica was quickly mine. Hmm, a lot of good tax payers and armoured hopolites. Armoured Hopolites are just the things I need to face the Brutii generals.

[WarDad]

I really started to like the Greeks horse archer (javelin thrower).
They have more ammo, better range, and are less likely to get hurt then petalists.
Plus they can run down skirmishers, but they are useless for flanking until the ammo runs out.

While defending I placed them behind my Phalanx wall, along with archers and petalists.
I really started liking this arrangement, and now do it on a big battle offense.

Their speed helps them to stay out of trouble. They can be used to soften up selected troops,
like elephants or chariots.

If I want serious calvery for flanking and smashing, I'll hire mercs. A Greek empire with a REX (rapid expansion) start can well afford it. All those ports, all those large cities, all those mines, all that money.