Killing Speeds Fixed! Read Inside!

[Spino]

I apologize to the moderators for posting this here and in the RTW Mod forum in the Dungeon but far fewer Org members frequent that forum. Besides, this is the answer to many people's complaints! Adonys over at twcenter.net figured out how to adjust the killing speeds in combat! He also discovered that this can be done without breaking anything else in the process.

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=9877


Here's a little bit of info you can find in the export_descr_unit.txt file:



;Details of unit's primary weapon. If the unit has a missile weapon it must be the primary
; stat_pri From left to right
; attack factor
; attack bonus factor if charging
; missile type fired (no if not a missile weapon type)
; range of missile
; amount of missile ammunition per man
; Weapon type = melee, thrown, missile, or siege_missile
; Tech type = simple, other, blade, archery or siege
; Damage type = piercing, blunt, slashing or fire. (I don't think this is used anymore)
; Sound type when weapon hits = none, knife, mace, axe, sword, or spear
; Min delay between attacks (in 1/10th of a second)
; stat_pri_attr
; primary weapon attributes any or all of
; ap = armour piercing. Only counts half of target's armour
; bp = body piercing. Missile can pass through men and hit those behind
; spear = Used for long spears. Gives bonuses fighting cavalry, and penalties against infantry
; long_pike = Use very long pikes. Phalanx capable units only
; short_pike = Use shorter than normal spears. Phalanx capable units only
; prec = Missile weapon is only thrown just before charging into combat
; thrown = The missile type if thrown rather than fired
; launching = attack may throw target men into the air
; area = attack affects an area, not just one man
;
;Details of secondary weapons. If the unit rides on, or has attached animals or vehicles
;then the secondary weapon details refer to their attacks. If the unit has missile weapons
;the secondary weapon will be the one used for melee
;If the unit has a primary melee weapon, it may have a secondary side arm
; stat_sec As per stat_pri (a value of no means no secondary weapon)
; stat_sec_attr As per stat_pri_attr



And here's how usual these stat_pri/stat_sec looks like:
stat_pri 1, 0, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, knife, 25 ,1
stat_pri 13, 7, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, slashing, axe, 25 ,0.87
stat_sec 11, 8, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 25 ,0.73


Therefore, I did some test modifying the "last" stat_pri/stat_sec value (which was supposed to be Min delay between attacks (in 1/10th of a second) from the file's header) from 1 to 10 and from 1 to 0.1 and... and I expected to see the units swinging their weapons slower for the 10 value and faster for the 0.1 value...

Well, it wasn't the case... but still, the result was a good one: the killing ration beeing speeded up for the 10 value and slowed down for the 0.1 one.

After this, I carefully re-readed the file header, and as you can see, it seems to be a little bit outdated: the Min delay between attacks (in 1/10th of a second) is in fact the value before the last one from the stat_pri/stat_sec entries, and it's always 25 (2.5 secs/swing).

And most probably will just modify the pause between the swing animations, not the pause between damage hits (but IF these two are linked, then it CAN also modify the damage output, beeing another way to obtain a slower killing rate). I'll do more tests with it tomorrow.

The last value is undocumented yet, most of them beeing 1, and very rare 0.87 or 0.73 (usually the spears are the ones with 0.87 and 0.73 values). So i guess as this value DO modify the resulted damage/time interval it must be a sort of to hit probability or a damage scale.

Anyway, it WORKS!!!

So, I scaled all of them (to avoid any unbalancing, even if most probably some of them should be scaled differently than others, allowing faster killing rates for some special weapons) down dividing them with 10 (the 0.1 value seems to be a good value, as it leaded to a pretty "realistical" killing ratio, as I saw from my tests).

Here's the modyfied file (just remove the _speed_0.1 part from its name and replace the original one... don't forget to back it up first):

[Thoros of Myr]

Yep, been using a killing speed mod since yesterday. It's great. The speed of the battles is nearly perfect now.

[Colovion]

Yep, been using a killing speed mod since yesterday. It's great. The speed of the battles is nearly perfect now.

Are you using it with the movement speed mod too? Tonight I think I'll try these two. :2thumbsup:

[Thoros of Myr]

Yes both together. I have time to do eveything and never pause, even time to watch battles but it still moves at a brisk pace so as not to be tedious.

[Spino]

Yep, been using a killing speed mod since yesterday. It's great. The speed of the battles is nearly perfect now.
I haven't tried it yet but plan to when I get home from work. Which one do you use? The .1, .33 or .5 version?

For anyone who has used this mod can you tell us which one you used and give us an idea as to how much longer combat is with the version you are using?

[Thoros of Myr]

After testing .5 was my fave but I'm actually using Sage's modified speed mod ATM.

Units will stand and fight like you expect them to, routing is much more managable with your general. Flanking is possible where before it was too fast. Infantry has that chunky feeling like you can wedge them in a gap and hold the enemy off for awhile. Cav can still kill really fast when they flank which feels right. Nothing like holding them with your spearmen and then bringing the cav around to smash them to bits from the rear.

**Using sage's version of the kill rate mod, 1 post from the bottom on that page and appollonius's second version of the movement rate mod (slighty faster then the first one that was too slow)**

[Orda Khan]

I noticed a few different options, which of these modded files are you using?

.....Orda

[hoof]

My main concern would be the timer. Personally I'd turn off the timer if they let me, but so far it hasn't been an issue. If troops killed slower, then it might make some streetfighting in cities take quite a while and cause more time-outs to occur. Is there a no-timer mod?

[Thoros of Myr]

My main concern would be the timer. Is there a no-timer mod?

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=9993


:2thumbsup:

[Thon]

very cool, i put in the .5 one and noticed a big difference.

principes vs a gaul warband, since i'd seen them maul each other on many occasions. some died in the initial charge, but they slugged it out without the massive fast deaths normally seen.

i'll see how this .5 pans out in a few campaign battles

[Morindin]

How does it go with tougher units? I have found that the tougher units in multiplayer are practically 'perfect' in terms of killing speed (for me anyway).

I guess it wouldnt hurt for them to slug it out for even longer, hey it might even make it more "epic", like Archilles vs Hector.

[Inuyasha12]

It works like a charm!! ~:eek:


I actually have time to watch the battles now, great!!!

I had this test battle and it lasted a long while, i could actually see the battle flowing and changing, not a figth and sweep like before. Its an actual meele.

YAY!

[Spino]

Finally got home and tested this out. I'm using the .5 version and it works great! No more high speed killfests! The developers weren't lying when they said this game was extremely moddable.

Now if only someone could locate the actual movement speed data for unit types instead of the terrain modifiers.

[Morindin]

Finally got home and tested this out. I'm using the .5 version and it works great! No more high speed killfests! The developers weren't lying when they said this game was extremely moddable.

Now if only someone could locate the actual movement speed data for unit types instead of the terrain modifiers.

ive had a look through the unit statistics file and it seems units are divided up into "groups" such as light infantry, heavy infantry, skirmishers, cavalry, etc for their movement rates and other "general properties".

I suspect they're in there somewhere, wherever that is :)

[LittleRaven]

Someone refresh my memory. If I want to play with a mod in the campaign, do I need to restart the campaign after the mod has been applied? I seem to remember that I do...

[Morindin]

Someone refresh my memory. If I want to play with a mod in the campaign, do I need to restart the campaign after the mod has been applied? I seem to remember that I do...

No you dont have to restart.

[Thoros of Myr]

It works like a charm!! ~:eek:


I actually have time to watch the battles now, great!!!

I had this test battle and it lasted a long while, i could actually see the battle flowing and changing, not a figth and sweep like before. Its an actual meele.

YAY!

little less speed goes a long way
~D

Now as Spino said if we could also find individual unit speeds...any CA folk kindly enlighten us please? :saint:

[Stuie]

Wow! Wished I'd seen this yesterday. Now I have to wait until tonight to try it out. I plan on using the .5 killing mod and the speed mod. Really looking forward to better paced battles.......

[Saracen]

The "killer" here is the time issue. What we are trying to do is to slow down everything in proportion to each other. The killing rate takes care of one issue but leaves the unit speed and game time alone. You can address unit speed by modifying the descr_battle_map_movement_modifiers.txt file. This is the terrain modifiers and reduces all speeds in an equal ratio. I multiplied the numbers in here by .75 and that seemed to do it for me. That leaves one huge issue. In doing both of the above the battle time particularly in seiges becomes an even bigger issue. We need to resolve that. The control-alt in out thing doesn't work for everyone. Also if I am the defender hanging on by a thread I want to have some time limit. My "gut" says twice the current time would be about right taking into consideration all these other changes.

**Just noticed the link above to a time limit solution on/off. If that works the gentlemen deserves our generous thanks and anything else he wants!!!!!

[d6veteran]

I tried the .5 mod. I admit it does have a better feel to it.

Although I still like the unit speed and won't be adjusting that.

[LittleRaven]

Once I tried the killing speed mod, my concerns about movement speed went away. I think I'll be sticking with the killing rate mod but leaving the speed alone.

[DisruptorX]

I just put in the text file and made a backup of the old one. When I get home this evening, I'm going to give it a try. I'm really praying that it will be like seige battles, where you can actually zoom in and watch your men fight in glorious 3d. My most memorable battles in MTW were always ones that I zoomed in to watch my halbadiers hold of the mongols while literally waist high in horse corpses. ~:smoking:

In RTW, I have enjoyed those seiges where I can watch my men fight on the battlements, and if this mod makes the whole game like that, my complaints will disappear.

[sage]

For the folks who are using the .5 mod, but not adjusting the movement speed, you may want to grab my version of Adonys mod -- it's at the end of the thread at twcenter.net.

Primarily, it reudces cavalry charge values a bit to account for the generally reduced killing power of all melee troops.

I also play with the movement allowence set at default.

I may also reduce war dog effectiveness -- they're a bit gross for me. I'm routinely getting 4-600 kills for one unit of war dogs, with zero casualties. Yikes.

Sage
:duel:
:charge:

[LittleRaven]

I'm pretty sure I'm using your version, Sage. Didn't you also tweak Carthage a wee bit?

[Osbot]

Hey Sage, is there any way in the future we could see a .7 or so version? I've been a little hesitant because while lower tier units tend to get slaughtered higher tier vs higher tier last awhile. Im hoping that these high quality units don't stand there for ages ;p

[sage]

Hi Osbot, the .5 version that Adonys developed (and I use) doesn't actually double the length of time combat takes -- it only doubles the period between attacks. It's not ==. I've found that combats are much closer in length to MTW. High quality / tough units may be around for awhile -- but not if they're charged in the rear, showered by missiles etc... I'd suggest giving it a try (back up the original) with the custom battles and see if works for you.

Raven -- yes that's my version, although I de-modified carthage on various suggestions to wait for better play testing.

Sage

[Kraxis]

So the 0.1 version means the period between strikes are 10 times as long?

[bhutavarna]

I didn't like the 0.5 mod. I think it's a little too slow. Plus, I also noticed that the mod didn't take into account that the original kill speed values are not always the same. For example, regular infantry has a value of 1 while peasant and militia has a value of 0.73. Mod 0.5 simply changed all of them to 0.5. So it probably messed up the gameplay balance.

So I created my own mod. This time I choose to change the kill speed modifier (still not sure if it is a kill speed modifier) to 80% of the original values. I seem to like this version. Battle are still relatively fast, but a little slower than before. At first I only change the melee values and not the missile values, but I am going to make the missile 80% as well, except for siege missile, to balance the gameplay. I don't think I should be able to wipe out an entire axemen unit with one archer unit.

Aside from this, I also created my own movement mod. At first I set the movement modifiers to 80% of the original values on all terrain types. But it slows the movement too much, especially because it made fatigue happens quicker. So I adjust it to 90% of original values, and it seems to work, although I am tempted to try 85%, which I think would work best.

I can post this if anyone is interested (if someone can tell me how to post attachment)

[Thoros of Myr]

I would like to try it becuase as you said .5 across the board does not take into the account the individual speeds, obviously trained swordsmen would attack faster and more effeciently than peasants. Also missle values need a slight tweak aswell. We will eventually find the " hot spot" :)

[zentuit]

I didn't like the 0.5 mod. I think it's a little too slow. Plus, I also noticed that the mod didn't take into account that the original kill speed values are not always the same. For example, regular infantry has a value of 1 while peasant and militia has a value of 0.73. Mod 0.5 simply changed all of them to 0.5. So it probably messed up the gameplay balance.
Are you sure you got the right version? The version up there now is export_descr_unit_speed_0.5_1.0.txt (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=191679)
These modifiers are not all set to .5, but instead the original amounts have been halved. Oh except for missile units, looks like missile units have been bumped back up to 1. That's something you may want to look at for your mod.

[bhutavarna]

I would like to try it becuase as you said .5 across the board does not take into the account the individual speeds, obviously trained swordsmen would attack faster and more effeciently than peasants. Also missle values need a slight tweak aswell. We will eventually find the " hot spot" :)

I'll post it when I get home from work. Can you tell me how to do this?

[Thoros of Myr]

Are you sure you got the right version? The version up there now is export_descr_unit_speed_0.5_1.0.txt (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=191679)
These modifiers are not all set to .5, but instead the original amounts have been halved. Oh except for missile units, looks like missile units have been bumped back up to 1. That's something you may want to look at for your mod.

Heheh, just noticed this new version. Seems we need only to balance missle units now and we could try different versions of movement speed.

[Jagger]

I am trying the .5 1.0 txt mod and like it.

However has anyone noticed anything funny about skirmishers?

I am playing Gauls. My skirmisher warbands are rarely caught by infantry. But with the new mod, it has happened a couple of times vs Brit infantry. Unfortunately without the replay capability, I haven't been able to determine exactly what happened. It appears they just stand there and don't even attempt to escape. They were on skirmisher mode.

Is it possible that skirmishers are taking too long to fire and are being caught by charging infantryr?

BTW, if anyone can add a replay capability to campaign battles, my last major problem with the game would be solved...and I would owe someone a beer.

[Saracen]

Once the time program is executed can that "switch" be activated on/off from within the game? If you start a new game I assume you would have to run it on the "new" save file?

[sage]

Hi Jagger --

I've seen this with the original and with the updated unit file. I'll play around but it may just be a game problem. I recall in MTW that the computer wasn't very good at retreating skimishers when threatened by a unit that wasn't explicitly targeting them -- I think the same thing may be happening.

Sage


I am trying the .5 1.0 txt mod and like it.

However has anyone noticed anything funny about skirmishers?

I am playing Gauls. My skirmisher warbands are rarely caught by infantry. But with the new mod, it has happened a couple of times vs Brit infantry. Unfortunately without the replay capability, I haven't been able to determine exactly what happened. It appears they just stand there and don't even attempt to escape. They were on skirmisher mode.

Is it possible that skirmishers are taking too long to fire and are being caught by charging infantryr?

BTW, if anyone can add a replay capability to campaign battles, my last major problem with the game would be solved...and I would owe someone a beer.