I've Fixed Squalor!

[TomPaine]

Hi Everyone -- I'd post this in either the modding forum, or in the Colosseum, but as a lowly Junior Patron, I can't do either. But, for what it's worth, I've come up with a fix for squalor by modding some files, in a very simple fashion.

In the Data subdirectory, there's a file called "export_descr_character_traits", which controls the bonus and negatives given for the various Virtues and Vices, as well as the probability of getting any VnV in a given situation. With each character trait, you'll see what it does, represented like this: "Effect Command 1", for example, for the Virtue "Confident Commander". In order to allow some traits to reduce squalor, simply add the following comment "Effect Squalor -1". I've added it to a few skills where I felt it was appropriate -- such as the skilled bureaucrat, and a few others. It just makes your good city managers all the more important.

Now, once you do this, the effects *will* be modeled in the game, but the in-game text for your traits won't show that the Virtue modifies squalor. The change that, go into the Data/Text directory, and open up the "Export_VnVs" file; look for the descriptions of each of the virtues that you've modified, and just add whatever text you'd like. Thus, if you changed Confident Commander to mod squalor (not that you would), you'd change the existing description of "+1 Command" to "+1 Command, -1 to Squalor" and the text would appear, in full grammatical English (assuming you typed it right) in the game.

You can do the same thing for appropriate ancillaries -- such as, say the Chirurgeons or the Doctors, or some priests, or what-have-you. The effect comment is the same, but you'll have to modify the "export_descr_ancillaries" in the Data folder to affect the game, and the "Export_ancillaries" file in the Data/Texts folder to affect the text displayed in game.

So, now you can have *some* control over squalor. Just preserve/train good managers, and you can have some people capable of dealing with troubled cities. I still haven't figured out how to have buildings affect squalor -- no building actually does affect squalor, according to their comments, so I don't know what the comment would be. Also, I'm not sure if this is a perfect solution -- maybe it just delays the onset of the problem. Thus, now cities with 45,000 people will be as bad as the cities of 24,000 were before -- but it's something. And, frankly, so long as you're judicious in assigning the squalor penalties only to things that makes sense, I think it might balance the gameplay, and not feel inappropriate.

Cheers. ~D

[oblivious maximus]

I like squalor. ~:)

[TomPaine]

Yeah, actually, I like the general idea of squalor, too. I just didn't like the sense of helplessness before the gameplay mechanic. If you gently modify your files, like I did, so that your skilled administrators get some ability to decrease squalor, I feel like the game might play even better. You might only have a handful -- maybe even only one, and maybe even none -- of faction members who understand engineering, architecture, natural philosophy, and bureaucratic management (just to name the VnVs I gave small, negative squalor effects to) enough to actually begin to reign in a major, squalid city. As such, I think you'll have *more* gameplay options -- which of my major cities do I want to keep clean and ordered? Because I sure don't have enough good governors to keep them *all* squalor free. That way, Alexandria might be a mess, but at least you won't step on anything untoward in Rome. Also, if you keep the bonuses modest, it won't make squalor go away in *any* city; even your well run cities will have some percentage of squalor -- they just won't always hit 95%. I mean, after all, even Rome had the Subura -- I just happen to think that a 30% squalor rating for a mighty roman city, administered by the best civil engineers of time, is perhaps a bit better. But your mileage may vary.
~D

[camulos]

I like the idea of reducing squalor through vices and virtues. Seems a lot more balanced and keeps things challenging rather than reducing it as a whole

[Red Harvest]

Nice work. I agree with you that we seem to be helpless against squalor at the moment and this is an interesting way of doing something about within the game context. I would like to hear what CA has to say about squalor. Is it working like they intended? Are we using the wrong methods to keep it in check? I like the general idea of squalor being modeled, it is the sense of helplessness that is bothersome.

[Orvis Tertia]

I haven't run into problems with squalor yet in my own campaign, but I was under the impression that the public health attribute governed squalor, so buildings such as baths and sewers help vs. squalor, as do some temples. Am I wrong?

[fey]

Public-health buildings can offset squalor, but not reduce it.

I've seen a mention somewhere on the boards that one of the main causes of squalor is rapid creation of buildings in a city. The post claimed that if you just NOT BUILD anything for several turns, squalor will go down substantially.

If true, then squalor is basically a brake on fast development and is there to prevent a faction from getting an impregnable lead in the beginning. I would be wary of messing with squalor for the fear of making the (strategic) game too easy in the middle-to-late stage.

Fey

[TomPaine]

I think you're right, Fey -- we do need to be careful when fiddling with squalor. I'll let you all know how my campaigns play out, and whether everything works for better or for worse. Again, I'm not sure the results will be unbalanced, because I didn't make any enormous changes -- just a few Virtues, like skilled bureaucrat, get a -1 to squalor, and a few ancillaries, such as the doctors, the engineers, the priests related to fertility or population management, and some of the explicitly medical/engineering followers produced from the academies -- and that's it. My hope is that this will provide you with strategic options: enough squalor controlling resources to keep a bare handful of cities well run, while the rest continue along their merry, roach-infested way. Frankly, it feels *conceptually* more balanced even if it's not better balanced for gameplay -- it just felt counter-intuitive that every city, no matter how well run, would end up being a stinking cesspool. Now most still will be, but you could at least make sure somebody picks up after the horses in your capital. But again, I'll let you all know how it works out.

[camulos]

Tom could you post these files for us?

[GonzoDave]

If you want a quick and drastic solution, open export_descr_ancilliaries.txt, and find the first entry for architect. Change the squalor value to -x. Now scroll down to Trigger trigger_architect, and replace the code with


WhenToTest CharacterTurnEnd
Condition EndedInSettlement
and RemainingMPPercentage = 100
and SettlementBuildingExists >= sewers
and IsGeneral

AcquireAncillary architect chance 50

Now any general who spends a turn in a settlement with sewers will have a 50% chance of getting him. If you want the architect to sort out your lack of governors, scroll back up to his list of effects and add "Fertility 1"(remove quotes) at the bottom.

NB-this doesn't change the description given on the tooltip in game. That will still say squalor -1.

[GonzoDave]

That's with x being the no. of units of squalor you want him to get rid of

[TomPaine]

I'd be happy to post my modified files, but I don't have anywhere to host them. If anyone else is interested in testing them out, can someone clue me in as to how to go about this? Can I somehow post them to the .org?

[mynameisjonas]

That seems like a nicely balanced solution, which would appeal to many RTW patrons. The best way I have noticed, other than atlering the Data files, in keeping the population in a city down as close to 24000 as possible, is by building structures that allow you to keep order while raising taxes, which curb population growth. Also i've noticed that a steady recruitment stream from the Huge City also keeps the yearly population down. But, this can get expensive.

[Orvis Tertia]

Ooh! Here's a thought about a (non-mod) way to attack squalor. What if you recruit a steady stream of peasants and march (or ship) them to your frontier to a town that needs help growing. Disband them in the new town and you've got an instant population boost where you need it.

[mynameisjonas]

I haven't tried to disband the new units (like peasants) in frontier settlements, if doing so adds to the frontier settlement's population then that is a great idea. I've only recruited expensive units, because they were only available in the large cities, but if you can spread your population out by disbanding peasants then that would fix alot of city management problems, i.e squalor.

[Blodrast]

hmm, that would imply a HUGE deal of micromanagement...for normal unit size, a peasant unit is what, 40, 60 ? You'd need to recruit a few _hundred_ units to calm down your huge city...and that from every huge city ?
no way I can see this working in the long term...
I like the idea, don't get me wrong, and I was thinking myself along the same lines, of somehow culling the population, but if you do the math, I am afraid you'll agree with me...

[Orvis Tertia]

I suppose you could try to use the rally points feature to make this idea manageable, but I concede that it would probably only be workable for one or two problem cities. Any more than that and you might as well just go become a chartered accountant. (LOL Crimson Permanent Assurance Total War. --Python joke if you're scratching your head.)

[mynameisjonas]

I've found that a steady stream of recruitment helps keep your population down when the city is still at a manageable level, ie. close to 24000 with a growth rate of +0.5, or lower. Preferably, the tax rate can be set high enought to give the city a negative growth rate to keep the city population at a steady 24000, any higher and problems arise.

Recruiting a peasant force in a city with 24000, would be a +0.25 growth rate, not a solution, but rather a type of preventative tool to help city management. A city with more than 30k can be serious trouble.

Yes, as the game progresses this could be more toruble than its worth, though, you're right.

[GonzoDave]

What about modding a new unit - Settler Train. Consists of 400 men with the civilian stats from the descr_units.txt file.

[Del Arroyo]

Gonzo has a good idea there. Settlers were historically very important.

[Ivar the Terrible]

Yeah Squalor Sucks, leads to plague :toilet:

I've been finding the population in Patavium growing too fast :balloon2:

I'm going to try this out to ship some people to Segenta Even 40 people represents a 4% population growth and will reduce the amount of time a small town takes to become a big town be a couple of years. ~D