ALL Cavalry tactics

[Shahed]

Is this possible in RTW ? I don't know if anyone remembers any of my all cavalry SP "tactics" (replicating historical Turkish mounted warfare) from MTW but if you do you know what I mean.

If you don't what I mean is ...is there any faction which you can play and on the battlefield, eliminate "superior" foot (and horse) enemies with "inferior" mounted troops ?

All replies appreciated and noted. Thanks in anticipation.

Salute !

[Armchair Athlete]

obviosuly depending on difficulty levels and factions, but yes, in my experience it is and is very effective (if you can micro manage good enough!). Parthians are an obvious example, with good horse archers and cataphracts, plus parthian cavalry which is both a horse archer and can fight in hand to hand combat. Pontus can too, with Pontic Light and Heavy Cavalry plus Cappadocian cavalry. Pontic general too has a missile weapon. Armenia with Cataphract archers, horse archers and cataphracts. Macedonia can do it alone against most match ups with just Light Lancers, and Later Companion Cavalry. I havent played them yet, but Egyptians could do good too I feel as their cavalry is very fast and reasonable (but less so later in he game).

[Shahed]

Thanks AA.

[Dimeola]

Greetings....played as germans the other night vs Romans in several games. In one I used warbands center to hold the Roman foot whilst german Cav swept the wings, rolled thru the bow and hit from behind. They turned to fight but several withdraw and charge and they melted.
Another game my foe moved several foot and covering cav to the extreme rt wing and his ally center reinforced his rt. I charged his rt with foot to hold his foot and my cav went into the split and caught his extreme wing in flank and sent it running, then hit his rt with allies frrom behind and slaughtered them.
Granted I am not as experienced or skillfull with cav but I love the German heavies. The thing in RTW seems to be cav is toast if you try to sustain melle....you more than ever must charge and withdraw and recharge.....
Dimeolas

[Red Harvest]

As Carthage on very hard, I use the two light/med cav units as the backbone of my army. I've had no trouble taking out phalanx armies with it so far. I've also taken out triarii armies with it. All you have to do is sandwich the spears, and that is fairly easy with cav. The frontal units take some damage, but the spears rout quickly. Hastati and principes are fairly easy. Throw in a low level elephant unit and you've got a real formation buster that will take care of any "hard points". I've actually had more trouble with the Gaul chosen swordsmen than anything else so far. Still scratching my head over that, but those swordsmen filled armies have been the toughest to handle.

[Colovion]

Here's your All Cav strat:

Build loads of Cav.

Build one unit of skirm/HA

draw the entire army over in pursuit with that one fast unit

charge!

It works, but that's not a good thing. ~:handball:

[Red Harvest]

LOL, Colovion, that is too true.

[Oleander Ardens]

Cavalry armys are great in the early timeframe 270-230 I've been playing right now. Even the Romans have great success with stacks of Equites, Warhounds and Aux. Cav...

The early enemys lack morale and defense, so they get smashed in no time once they are split up. The early skirmishes - small battles are perfect for such warfare

Warhounds are a really interesting unit. Low upkeep and autofillup of dogs, a likely moral malus and their speed make them more than worthy - had great fun withthem, although I didn't/couldn't use them for my historic campaign ~;)

PS: the Gauls ain't bad; Chosen Swordsmen with Druidic Support in the Center, Forester as archers and Noblemen as cav with a possible warhound-unit as spooker. Gaul Warband Skirmisher are also simply great for their low price..


Cheers

OA

[troymclure]

yes all cav armies can work. I'm playing as the armenians right now and i basically took over all of russia plus some of the middle east using nothing but horse archers plus the occassional merc (oh and the one unit of cataphracts you get at the start). Only thing you have to worry about is light horse. I've found using armies counsisting of as many HA as you can afford plus 2-4 medium to heavy horse (i was using faction heirs at the start) is pretty much unstoppable, group your HA's in two's or three's activate Cantib circle, then send them off to attack. You'll shortly find the enemy army encircled by 6-12 horse archer circles, the auto skirmish plus your own tender ministrations should be able to keep this up indefinately. It's actually quite a sight, the enemy army will tend to get pull very out of shape as it tries to deal with all these HA units that never quite get in range and because of the Cantib circle they actually stand up to enemy fire better than the enemy seem to be able to respond to theirs.
Eventually it'll all come to an end, most of the time the computer gives up after losing maybe 30-40% of his guys having shot about 1-5% of mine he then starts the long (and arrow filled)trek out of there, if it looks like he'll fight it to the end you just send in the heavy horse once you've used up most of your arrows. Sometimes you get unlucky and lose a unit or two of HA's too a pincer movement but in general it's pretty foolproof, oh yeah keep the heavy horse near the HA's but not too near basically you want his army focussed on the HA's and not on closing with your HH should a unit of HA's receive the attention of some Light Horse or other "interesting" unit just lead the HA's back towards the HH's,basically the HH is just close fire support for any HA's who get in trouble, well that and breaking those final high moral units with charges.
The only real problem with this tactic is it makes seiges a lot more difficult and that i haven't found a real solution to very light horse heavy armies (such as the ones the egyptians have started sending against me after i destroyed the last four stacks of heavy foot that they sent against me).
Oh one last advantage in RTW that Cav have compared to MTW is the increased movement on the strat map, you really can do hit and run tactics on 1500 strong armies with your two units of horse archers as they trundle across the desert.

[Armchair Athlete]

I think the best way to win with all cavalry armies for siege warfare is simply to starve them out. If they try to sally, they will never be able to catch you and due to the extremely poor way in which units sally out of the gates you can defeat any try to come out (with missile fire or charges). The result will be at worst a draw and the siegeing continues.

[Doug-Thompson]

Greetings, Master Sinan



Not only is it possible, it's possible in a whole new dimension.

First, there's a new thread showing somebody wiping out a bunch of hoplites, although it was a bridge crossing battle.

Second, and more important, the campaign map is a Mongol-like players dream.

(Disclaimer: I haven't played a horse archer campaign yet. I'm concentrating on the strategy game. Horse archer civs, as you know, require tactics. If I started with both, it would take weeks to complete a campaign and unlock the horse archer factions.)

Speed is a real advanage now, not just a limited tactical advantage. Horse archers will swarm over this map, able to avoid combat when they want at will and close without mercy or escape when they want. Infantry will be cut off. You will be able to block the advance of a whole army with one swift unit until you're ready. You will be able to defeat an army and then pursue and destroy the survivors in a second and third battle.

There will be no escape.

You played superbly when all you had was a fiddle before. Buy this game and play a Stradivarius.

You will have to complete a campaign to unlock the true HA factions, as mentioned in the disclaimer.

[Orda Khan]

Hi Sinan,
I remember that all cav Turkish army online too ~;)
You are looking for lightweight units aren't you, not big heavy cav like Cataphracts?
I ran a custom battle and ate a Seleucid army of Silver shield Pikes, Cohorts (? .. a Roman type unit ) Greek cav and Cataphracts. I selected an army of Scythian horse archers, Nobles and Noble horse archers. My arrows put out the sun :laugh4: and my Scythian Nobles easily dealt with the Cataphracts when they charged ( maybe because there would only be about 10 left by then ) The Pikes were very tough though and even when hit in the rear they turned too efficiently but I'm using a modded game to get some realism so the cav charge is less effective

So there you go, it's definitely a SP possibility but would be much harder in MP I would guess. I would also highly recommend the mods at TWCenter, the game is far more realistic when speed is reduced and kill rate also

.......Orda

Edit: Silver Shield Legionaries....I knew I'd get it wrong. They had some Companion cav too

[Spino]

All cavalry armies are doable but you really need a good number of horse archers or javelin armed cavalry to harass and soften up the enemy before charging in. Horse Archers are now absolute terrors in Rome with their generous ammo count and the larger battle maps. In the early stages of any campaign game these units are a godsend for player or AI factions with limited funds. In contrast to Medieval Horse Archers are almost too powerful now, especially when controlled by a human!

I am currently playing a campaign on Hard/Hard as Armenia and my field armies have been 100% cavalry (mostly Horse Archers with a few General units and the occasional Sarmatian cavalry merc unit). The exception to this is when I am sieging a city and need some infantry for an assault (the game won't let you initiate an assault without infantry). With Armenia's tight economy in the early years these units are pure gold. The only problem is that you have to fight the urge to use ahistorical tactics which, in many circumstances, would allow you to virtually annihilate every army you face.

My biggest problem arose when the Seleucids showed up at my capital with a handful of phalangite units and a single unit of War Elephants. My entire army was powerless against the elephants. After routing the phalangites my horse archers unloaded everything on those pachyderms and did squat.

[Shahed]

Greetings All ! ~:)

Many thanks for the replies, most interesting.
Thank you !

Salute !

:bow:

[frogbeastegg]

I love cavalry in RTW, absolutely love it. I was always a heavy infantry type of frog in STW and MTW but in RTW I am going to try a cavalry heavy campaign. I just can't choose which faction; any recommendations for an interesting short 15 province campaign using a cavalry heavy army? Something with good units available without too much building up; in my Julii short campaign I never got past principes and I dawdled my way to the end.

I take it you read my Victoria comedy AAR, Sinan? You're the second person using that quote in a signature; I must have been on good form.

[Leet Eriksson]

Frog you might wanna try the Scythians, they only have a cav army, and only 2 non-cav units, Axemen and Peasants.

I haven't unlocked them yet in Campiagn, but they are pretty awesome in Custom battle.

[Red Harvest]

Not sure about length of the campaign, but Carthage has good lancers that ride medium horse. You will need to hire Numidian cav for light horse to chase down other light horse...such as Numidians. Your cav should run all over the Roman units even on "very hard" battle settings--indicating that they are very strong on "medium." And if you want to be particularly devilish, buy an elephant or two. Elephants are handy for knocking down the gates of wooden walled cities, without waiting for siege equipment.

I haven't tried Sacred Band Cav yet. They should be real killers!

[Orda Khan]

Scythian Noble Horse Archers.......

http://www.mizus.com/hosted/Orda/sc3.jpg

mmmmmmm such a nice unit

.......Orda

[Doug-Thompson]

I love cavalry in RTW, absolutely love it.

As well you should, Froggie. There really wasn't much of a point to "lighter shades" of the cavalry in MTW.

On the tactical map, foot archers were less expensive and less vulnerable to missiles than horse archers. Knights and many other units were better at melee than the medium and light cavalry types.

On the MTW strategy map, everybody's movement rate was the same -- one province at a time. No matter where your units came from, you lined up and went head to head, too.

Now light swift cavalry will fight as God intended -- screening, seeing the enemy without him seeing you, slowing his progress, causing losses on the march, harrassing to the point of destruction, surrounding and panicing and chasing down the survivors. You will also be able to give horse archers the micro they always needed if we can really let the AI handle many of the melee units.

Sorry I can't help you on which faction to use, although there seems to be plenty of advice on that. I'm still concentrating on the strategy/economy/politics aspects.

=========

Also, I've rethought my violin analogy.

Sinan, you played beautifully before.

Now pick up and play a violin that has all its strings.

[Red Harvest]

As well you should, Froggie. There really wasn't much of a point to "lighter shades" of the cavalry in MTW.

On the tactical map, foot archers were less expensive and less vulnerable to missiles than horse archers. Knights and many other units were better at melee than the medium and light cavalry types.

On the MTW strategy map, everybody's movement rate was the same -- one province at a time. No matter where your units came from, you lined up and went head to head, too.

Now light swift cavalry will fight as God intended -- screening, seeing the enemy without him seeing you, slowing his progress, causing losses on the march, harrassing to the point of destruction, surrounding and panicing and chasing down the survivors. You will also be able to give horse archers the micro they always needed if we can really let the AI handle many of the melee units.



The horse archers were useful in MTW for a couple of things. By far the most important was desert warfare. They were fast and did not tire easily. This made good sense and fit historical perspective. They were excellent at chasing down routers. They also did well if on high ground (like other archers.) They were a useful counter to other horse archers and mounted javelins. They were also great for tying up multiple enemy units. I did not use them in the West much, but I used them quite a bit on the steppes and in the arid/desert terrain. In the West in MTW, the armour was too heavy for any archers (except the longbow units) to be effective. I found regular archers less useful than horse archers.

This is amplified in RTW, especially with strategy map movement and the like, as you have siad.

[Basileus]

With most eastern armies you can go all cav, armenia, pontus, parthia, scythia

Pontus is my fav mostly cause they have good pikes if needed and dont forget the chariots.

[Doug-Thompson]

Hey, nobody's a bigger fan of MTW horse archers in MTW than me. :charge:

As for other "non-knight" cavalry, I dearly loved my Saharan Cav for chasing down routers and killing archers when they were exposed. I once had a unit of Saharans take more than 500 prisoners.

I'm pretty sure we're agreeing here. Let's just put it this way: People could dispute the value of light cavalry and horse archers in MTW. There won't be much dispute in RTW. ~D

=========

Furthermore, it's pretty obvious that since a lot of my fulsome praise regards the campaign map, I'm referring a lot to the single-player aspects of RTW. I'm sure Sinan and others could tell, although they're probably more (exclusively?) interested in the multi-player challenge. Anyway, here's hoping the multi-player experience is as fulfilling.

[Red Harvest]

I'm pretty sure we're agreeing here. Let's just put it this way: People could dispute the value of light cavalry and horse archers in MTW. There won't be much dispute in RTW. ~D


I haven't gotten to face many of them yet, but from what I've seen so far, there is no way I would take the counter side of that bet! ~:cheers:

[Surprise]

If your micromanagement ability is good enough, you can do some real wicked things to the AI and other humans in RTW...

On a historical note, the wedge formation seems more useful than it was in MTW, and throughout history a wedge formation was used in order to frontally charge ranks of infantry... If the infantry stayed in well enough order as the cav were charging in, the wedge formation enabled the cavalry to turn much easier and move away from the infantry. :book:

[Oleander Ardens]

@Doug-Tomphson: I too have yet to use the RTW-Horsearchers. Numidians and Auxilia proved to be very effective, so I can't wait to start an Armenian campaign - beautiful banner and color - and to rule the world with them.

I will try a combination of foot skirmishers and horse; Divided on the stratmap, united in the battle or : marching seperatly fighting united ... :bow:

Promises very good things, perhaps we could make an RTW- adaption of the old MTW Skirmisher (HA, javelin) thread ~;)

Cheers

OA

[Longasc]

You need a strategy for an all Cavalry Army?

Seriously, it is as easy as that.


Move some Cav units behind them, some to the flanks, hit CTRL-A and charge!

Then micromanage, pull them out, CHARGE again.

You do not need to worry about spearman at all, there is no counter to Cavalry. Missile Archers can charge, too, just alt-click if you are in the rear on another unit and have the opportunity.


ROME: TOTAL CHARGE

I still wonder why they made Cavalry so powerful in a game that deals primarily with ROME.

I think one can even do better than that:

http://www.longasc.de/Stuff/0003.jpg


Such "miracles" against full and well equipped armies are only possible with Cavalry Units. No Combo of Units can match that of Cavalry and Cav Archers.

Only weakness: Legionary Cohorts do better in dense city fighting, but once the door is taken or you sap several holes in the wall, Cavalry owns again.

[hotingzilla]

Well, that depends on the units you were fighting.

[Doug-Thompson]

Promises very good things, perhaps we could make an RTW- adaption of the old MTW Skirmisher (HA, javelin) thread ~;)

Looking forward to it, OA

[Dimeola]

For an experiment on mdm in SP I took a Scythian army vs a Roman in flat grass. Of the approx 1300 Romans who took the field about 100 were left alive. Romans sent a 3 unit HC push to my left flank which I drew off and countered with my Noble cav.....I set my LCA in cantabrian circles on their foot, and moved my other HC away. I let the LCA wear down his army and the AI slpit them up. Stragglers were meat for the grinder. Wear them down with LCA, lure them away from the main body, then hit them from two opposite sides with HC.
I did in my ineptitude have trouble keeping on top of the spreadout army and I lost 4 or 5 units. A human opponent may keep his troops together. And more missile troops on Roman side may help. Will try some new tests. Scythians are fun!
D

[todorp]

In my current Scythian campaign I use only Scythian horse archers and two axmen for the battering rams. I have conquered all of Russia, Germany and the Balkans. 100% horse archers armies rule the game so far. In the last 4 turns I was attacked by all the Roman fractions and defeated 3 Roman armies of 1500 each with 500 horse archers, with almost no casulties.

~:cheers:

[Longasc]

I can only agree to that statement.

Probably this is why Scythia is normally not unlockable. But the Parthians do have those Horse Archers, too, right?

And for "depends on the units you were fighting" -> Principes mainly, Archers, Horse Archers, Triarii - a very well rounded and powerful Roman Army led by a Scipii General.

Hey, just face it. Cavalry :charge: charges everything, and all that is left is a user (Longasc) complaining about the strength of Cav charges! :furious3:

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

ROME: TOTAL CHARGE

I still wonder why they made Cavalry so powerful in a game that deals primarily with ROME.
LOL :grin2:

Wait!! Why am I laughing? :confused: In reality, it's very sad... :bigcry:

Just imagine Julius Caeser with a full Equites and Merc HA cav army, conquering Gaul... :thinking: :stunned:

Or the Roman crushing the Greeks cities by using all cav armies against Hoplites and Phalangites... :thinking: :stunned:

No more Legionaires anymore... :no: