Help! I can't beat the Byz...

[bretwalda]

I am with the Polish, Normal difficulty, time is 1230. Actually I hope that the Mongol horde will save me...

I have all of Northern EU, British isles, former territory of HRE, Greater Hungary, Northern France.

So my industrial base is pretty much built up. But I can't do fight on multiple fronts. Unfortunatelly I am at war with the Spanish (I attacked them, no fights in the last few turns), Byz (they attacked), Hungarians (they attacked :( , they are extinct now, but there is a rebel province in on of their former provinces that I dont have the manpower, nor the money to take) and Novgorod (they attacked).

I seem to be able to keep all of the at bay, but I have great difficulty winning against the Byz in battle. Especially the Varangian Guard gives me hard times. The only way I can win is that I try to wore down the troops in at least to battles after each other. I dont have good commanders unfortunatelly: used to have 3-4 3* general (two of the killed by the pesky Byz) and still have my uber-general of 5* (pathetic...) The Byz are running around with 7-8-9* generals, killed the emperor in battle and the heir is a 7* general again. Some forces of the Byz are trapped in Provance. Trapped means the can't get out, because port is destroyed and I also moved in some ships there, but they are alive and kickin' as they took Milan from me. However my resources are strained: no money reserves, having difficulty producing new troops (another money problem) and my troops seem to be of lower quality.

Any tips how to defeat the Byz in attacking and defending? What to use?

Also strategy wise, will the Mongol Horde save me? How to play to help them crush the Byz, but rather crush each other?

[Quietus]

Hey Bretwalda,

Feed the Byzantines with a lot of Armoured Spearmen! Isolate the Varangian Guards and shoot them with Archers or X-bows. Say, they start with 100 Varangians. Once they are down to 80, quickly sandwich them with 1) Armoured Spearmen full charge and 2) your best Cavalry on "Wedge" (also full speed charge; upon 2 seconds of hitting, revert them back to normal formation). They should rout so fast with this.

Make sure your Armoured Spearmen got the Kats in check in the process of doing this. You don't want them to counter flank. Hide your troops in the forest since Cavalry gets so vulnerable there. When Kats charge, charge back. Don't let any units charge you while you aren't in motion.

Also, If you aren't looking for ransom, shoot their general with archers to death. And don't forget the ever-important cavalry on "wedge" at the the very back. Do the same with extra Armoured Spearmen. Bring at least 1 fast chaser (such as Steppe Cavalry so the enemy won't rally). Don't use all your Spearmen to chase routers. Just enough so that the Cavalry can chase fleeing troops one at a time and not allow the others to rally.

Do this when they have reinforcements. If they don't have reinforcement, chase them all the way! :duel:

Use the same tactics vs. the Mongols eventually. In general, just use a wall of spear and limited archers (about 2 and 2-3 cavalry). Mongols have horse archers so you might want to increase archers into 3. When they start shooting at you put the archers in front, and they will be tempted to charge. Charge back with your A. Spearmen to protect the archer. If they chicken-out, they are still being hit with archers.

Oh, one last thing. It might be good to pin two Kats with a Spearmen. If a third hits you, you might break, so flank quickly and make a mental match which spear units will go to which Kats or VGuard. ~:)

[bretwalda]

Thanks for the tips! I also have great difficulty killing the enemy generals. In one battle I had 2 Hobilars (15 horsemen each) charging the enemy general's unit which was 1 man on a horse (1 man Kat) and both of my units run away in fear... Later on I charged it with 4 units, 2 Hobilars and 2 Mounted Crossbowmen and they did not succeed killing that 1 man. Of course I attacked from several directions...

[rayoftoul]

High valour assassins are your friends - because, as I remember reading on the forums - "Byz Generals wear stars like christmas trees" :)

[mfberg]

On defense

Archer/Mtd Xbow/catapult
Armoured Spear

Kat Tr.archer V guard

mtd xbow mtd xbow

Get 2 mounted crossbows behind the byz, if you are lucky the kats will chase one and get tired, leaving the other to shoot up the v guard. Use the covered archers to shoot up the naptha/Tr archers.

On the offense go for raids of just mtd crossbows with 1 armoured spear. Position 2 mtd crossbows behind the armoured spear in a defensive position and use the other mtd crossbows like any good horse archer, concentrating on the Kats first.

mfberg

[bretwalda]

Thanks, again! ;) Armoured Spearman: is this a unique unit or just the plain spearman with good armor? It could be pretty well that I used mostly sword inf. that was the reason I did so bad...

[PFJ_bejazuz]

keep with your sword inf as the main flavour for your foot dude

spice them up with the occaisional pointy stick but as a rule the spear's attack value is so low that its often better to have a sword's kill rate against the enemy horse so that even though your guys are droppin like flies - their's are too

sticks - hold

swords - kill

holding the front with sticks while the swords chop up their backs being the ideal

[HopAlongBunny]

Missile fire all the way on Byz generals...good idea for VG too.

Unless of course you don't mind losing 1000+ men in melee, and not killing your target ~:)

[bretwalda]

Well, killing the general did make it easier... And it only cost a few royal (k)nights ;) I guess I will wore them down... hopefully. But after that I have to rebuild my army from scratch ;) so little will be left...

[Quietus]

If you don't want to spend a lot of money on Royal Knights then you can still use Armoured Spearmen to sandwich.

More so, if you just rout the General/Heir/Emperor and position the Hobilars close by to anticipate their escape route, then you capture them when they flee and ransom them for a handsome price ( the Byzantines especially pay a lot too).

Keep ransoming them. If they out of money then they can't pay and eventually run out of heirs. At that point, they degenerate to rebels. You just pick them apart after that.

:charge:

[bretwalda]

I can't build Armoured Spearmen - is this in the Viking Invasion expansion (that I dont have) or I am just not that advanced yet? I have Chivalric Sergants, they fare the best against the Byz, yet.

[HopAlongBunny]

It's been so long since I played w/o VI ~:)

I'm pretty sure Armoured Spearmen are a VI introduction. Chiv Sarge or Italian Inf are better anyhow, just steeper build req's and more expensive.

[bretwalda]

It's been so long since I played w/o VI ~:)

I'm pretty sure Armoured Spearmen are a VI introduction. Chiv Sarge or Italian Inf are better anyhow, just steeper build req's and more expensive.
Thought so. Unfortunately it seems that sometimes even Chiv Sarge doesnt hold long enough to flank its enemy, especially when I have a poor commander and the Byz have some ace. Luckily I managed to kill some of their good commanders in the process, and recently even won 2 out of the 3 battles fought in one year. Well, I am desperately needing good commanders and experienced troops... :)

[English assassin]

No VI probably means no javelin armed troops yet then? If you are at war with spain is there any chance you can take a spanish province and turn out some jinettes? Then, once you pin the VG or kats, the javelins will take them down fast.

Failing that mounted xbows should be able to lure some kats away and keep them chasing over the battlefield almost indefinitely as they are so slow.

Byz are hard though because the generals are so high ranking.

[Kommodus]

You will always take some serious casualties against the Byzantines when they field a good general (particularly if the difficulty setting is high). This, of course, holds true for just about any faction; it's just that the Byzantines tend to get a lot of good generals.

The chief Byzantine weakness, of course, is against cavalry. Without any good anti-cavalry units, they have to face your horsemen with Byzantine infantry, VG, and their own (somewhat inferior) cavalry. BI can do OK against cavalry under a good general, but if you attack from multiple sides, you'll win. VG can beat most cavalry units, but they are, after all, axemen, and are thus not a true anti-cavalry unit. Wear them down with armor-piercing missiles before attacking them with cavalry from multiple sides.

Do the Polish get halberdiers or any other polearm troops? If so, use them to take out enemy Kats. They'll actually do well against almost anything, but I would keep them away from VG with their armor-piercing axes.

When your generals are considerably outclassed, though, you'll have to field larger armies than the Byzantines and slowly wear down their numbers. It's OK to lose some battles if you can win the war strategically. I wouldn't count on the Golden Horde to rescue you; they might, but they're often rather passive/stupid in my campaigns.

[Procrustes]

Thought so. Unfortunately it seems that sometimes even Chiv Sarge doesnt hold long enough to flank its enemy, especially when I have a poor commander and the Byz have some ace.

Hi,

Actually, the Feudal Sargents have better moral than the Chiv Sargents do. They aren't armoured, though I've found that if you can give them some armour upgrades they actually can do better than Chiv Sarges in some fights.

HTH,

[Colovion]

I, as Turks, had a great time beating the Byz not through brute force but through hit and run tactics. Go hire a bunch of Horse Archer Mercs or make some of your own. THe best thing about the better kinds of you can find them (Boyars) is that you can use them to crush units from behind if oyu can sandwich a tired unit towards the end of a battle. I don't mean invading with your army and using these in conjuction - but only sending the amount of HA's in which you can feasibly control and harrass the enemy before retreating. It's the only way I could go through teh Byz without losing too many men and it works very well - even against the Katatanks - just make sure you pick your targets well and it'll work amazingly well.

Good luck! Those Byz are some of the most formidable opponents all the way through the game, mainly due to their Heavily ARmoured and Elite/Jedi General troops.

[Quietus]

I prefer Feudal Sargeants over Chivalric ones as well. But I really like the Armored spearmen, the are solid and they get extra protection. The only other spearmen I like more than A.S. are the Saracen Infantry: quick and tough. :charge:

[Boris of Bohemia]

By now you are probably resolving the situation, but the next time you get your first citadel, a town militia is only 6 turns on top of a town guard and gives one of the overall best nonfactional infantry units in the game. Halberdiers plus arbalests can take on almost anything, including the Byzantines and the Horde. As long as they don't get ganged up on from multiple angles, halberdiers are unbelievably hard to kill even when attacking, and are easily capable of 100+ kills against Mongol heavies, and probably Kats too.

[bretwalda]

Well, I am not resolving the situation so fast. Actually I only have time for one year / day (and not even on every day) because I am fighting on average 3 battles in one game year. I can build Halbediers, but somehow they did not fare too well yet. Please give some clues how to use them the most efficient way. Are they good in rough and flat terrain, in the open or in the woods as well? Sometimes I manage to lure the Byz into forests and even there sometimes their cavalry succeeds... So, please, please give some clues ;)

[bretwalda]

Without the expansion I have only seen the Kerns as javelin infantry, however they did not do too well either. I have constant morale problems steming from my poor generals - as I said before once my troops were running away from a winning battle...

[Adrian II]

So, please, please give some clues ;)LOL, I'm sorry but I believe you have been given about every clue available.
On the other hand everybody understands you are in deep s:oops: and pretty desperate -- and so would I be.

Lemme see, did someone mention the trick of training your generals in easy battles until they've gathered enough stars to stand a chance against Byzantine Ubercommanders? Self-induced rebellions are a good training ground.

As for Halberdiers, I totally agree they rock. Halberdiers will eat just about anything the AI throws at them, provided they have a morale bonus from some of the happy buildings and you never let them operate on their own because they rout if flanked in No Man's Land.

I believe that's it, buddy. Now stop post-morteming and give 'em hell. :duel:

[English assassin]

You have kerns, of course, I forgot you would. Well, a line of Halbs (be sure to have moral boosting buildings in the province where you turn them out) with a line of kerns behind should be effective against any armoured opponent. Once the VG/Kats are stationary on the points of halbs, let fly with the javelins. You'll take a few casualties from friendly fire but thats war for you. If you can get the kerns out on the flank and throwing into the rear of the Byz that's better. You will probably need to take them off skirmish to be able to use them.

Don't allow the Kerns to melee they will die like the peasants they are. Once they are out of javs either save them for chasing routers or just withdraw them.

If you play as the Byz you'll find you worry quite a lot about enemy cavalry as said above so be sure to pack the best knights you can too.

[Ironside]

I prefer Feudal Sargeants over Chivalric ones as well. But I really like the Armored spearmen, the are solid and they get extra protection. The only other spearmen I like more than A.S. are the Saracen Infantry: quick and tough.

Well Saracen Inf is exactly the same as CS, except available from early. :dizzy2: And you love Saracen, but hate CS?
Considering that you should have atleast 4 and often 6 (a reliquary, I remember something about I've seen they being bugged, giving +2 instead of the stated +4 morale) in morale for CS when you get them, they usually do the work well and hold a lot longer. FS works great in the desert though.


I have constant morale problems steming from my poor generals - as I said before once my troops were running away from a winning battle...
A question, do your troops have all the morale buildings? Church, Monastery, Reliquary. I'm just wondering, considering that my troops usually don't have problem with routing after they hit morale 4 (at most a monastery), so it sounds weird for me to have that problem midgame.
If your generals have morale vices, try to get another good one because morale is very important. A 9-star coward is worse than a 2-star because of that. Titles should do the trick, you can get atleast 3 extra stars, so getting 4-star generals should be a piece of cake. Else most things seems to be cowered.

[bretwalda]

I think you hit the nail on the head - that is my problem: low morale troops. I certainly lack the moral boosting buildings! And that is paired with poor generals really makes bloodshed. I am eating away their forces albeit slowly, but that is attrition and I wish to win the battles elegantly ;) I guess learn important lessons from this war :D

[Procrustes]

That's the thing to watch for w/ halibards - they can chew up armored units, but they generally have pretty low moral and are apt to route before your other units. The moral buildings are a must - churches are cheap!

I agree w/ the comments about javelins - they are great against heavy calvary if you can pin them with something else first. The VI add-on is worth the money if you can get it - adds slav javelins and the spanish javs. Cross-bows, arbelasts, long bows, and firearms are also good things to try if you can get them. (Only the javs and the long bows can be arched over your units, though - the rest all have to fire from a flank.)

I think it's important to pin the cav when you are in this situation - if you always have to fight them from the front, or if they get to repeatedly charge you, you will break. Hit them with one unit and then swing another unit around from a flank or the rear - once the cav are stuck in a melee you can wear them down if you have armor-piercing units. Even militia sargents will do nicely, though they also have low moral.

[bretwalda]

I have churches but they don't seem to improve moral that much... Now the thing is, that both Byz and the Polish (me) are exhausted and the Horde is knocking on our doorsteps... (a.d. 1232...) They haven't attacked me yet, but took two provinces from Byz. I will try the Kerns and also build up valour and morale - but that's on the long run, this war has to be won with what is at hand... :)

[Quietus]

Hey Bret,

First of all, don't initiate the charge. Let them walk around first. If they don't charge keep shooting. The object is weaken their number first. Wait till you know you can make great flanking moves. Once you force one of their sides, you can wipe them out in one stroke.

Can you train Militia Sargeants? They are good medium armor choppers. However, don't use them to take those Heavy Cavalries head on. Flank the enemy in the forest. Bring 2-3.

Halbediers are pretty slow and there's not enough of them for full on face to face engagement. Just use alot Feudal Sargeants, trade and farm. You won't run out of florins.

@Ironside: I played MTW by feel not by looking at stats (that's why I made $6 million florins in my second campaign, expert, uber-upgraded provinces,normal tax, complete domination early 1300s: as the Turks). Saracen Infantry was the best backbone Spears i've used (and in fact my favorite infantry in MTW). Maybe it was that they are quick I was able to maneuver more effectively.

Their only weakness that is easy to protect is their vulnerability in their back. ~:)

[CherryDanish]

I'm playing Byz right now and I can tell you my biggest issue is with HA's (trying to reverse engineer the issue here). They never do much damage, but I can never seem to find an answer to them without laying elaborate and difficult traps. Byz forces are mostly heavy infantry and heavy cav with treb archers tossed in as an afterthought. Mobile and missle heavy forces should give them grief, but the fight should take a long time with you changing out loads of missle troops as they run out of ammo.

Sniper tactics also are very usefull here. On several occaisions I have taken out a powerful general with a catapault or ballista. Valour really helps these units, but in the end, on defense, catapaults kick serious butt.

[Ironside]

@Ironside: I played MTW by feel not by looking at stats (that's why I made $6 million florins in my second campaign, expert, uber-upgraded provinces,normal tax, complete domination early 1300s: as the Turks). Saracen Infantry was the best backbone Spears i've used (and in fact my favorite infantry in MTW). Maybe it was that they are quick I was able to maneuver more effectively.

Their only weakness that is easy to protect is their vulnerability in their back.

Fair, but I still find it funny that you love Saracens, but dislike CS when they are the same unit stat-wise.
Don't get me wrong here, I like strong spear-units and they are often my backbone line troops, so that's not what I react at.

[bretwalda]

Maybe I should do some weakening battles with an all-cavarly (mounted crossbow and horse archer, plus some royal knights) army. Shoot 'em up and withdraw... you can do a lots of shooting in 95 minutes of battle, that is for sure. Will my generals reputation suffer, if I shoot everybody up, shoot all my arrows and then withdraw?

[Procrustes]

Yes, it can - but it still may be worth it. Just don't bring your best general - bring one that you aren't grooming instead. (I mean, you aren't intending for him to win anyways.) This can even be a good way to suicide some mercs, obsolete troops, disloyal generals, or anyone else you don't feel like keeping around for much longer.

[bretwalda]

I managed to do 1 turn in the weekend, but that was like 9 hours long: the year 1232. I fought at least 7 battles, 3 winter scene... I lost 4 battles: My offensive one that aimed on weakening the Byz, a defensive one against the Byz again in the territory I gained last turn, another that I attacked an eclave of rebel territory inside mine and a one of the three defending against the Golden Horde. Yes, the Horde attacked me, but my armies prevailed in 2 of 3 battles and managed to kill the Khan. Now the Horde is disintegrated into rebel factions and actually the Germans reappeared in Kazar fighting to gain the territory. For some reason it is the second time I see the Germans reappear in Kazar. Anyway that is good- they will weaken each other - hopefully. The Spanish are experiencing some rebellions in their territories, and that is good ;) However my troubles are still the Byz, but I think I know now how to deal with them. (Oh by the way I just realized that my best commander [command point wise that is] actually has some morale minus - that means a quick end for him, I think) It is very hard to go back to peace with any power, unless you are really having the upper hand...