Macedon

[Ludens]

How do I unlock Macedon? Could someone give me in-depth instructions as to which folder i need to infiltrate?
Go to Data\world\maps\campaign\imperial_campaign\Descr_stat.txt and move Macedon from unplayable to playable-list. You can do that with other unplayable factions as well, but I recommend not doing it with the slaves and the Senate. These factions were never meant to be played and chrashes can occur when playing them.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Fellow Org-sters, a little help please. :gah2:

I am in the endgame of a Macedonian campaign. It's actually an interesting one since the Scipii, which own everything South and West of Carthage (including Carthage itself) have decided to break their alliance with me and assault Lilybaeum, pretty much catching me with my pants down.

The bulk of my forces are in the East (Nile, Sidon, Antioch, etc.) finishing off Egypt. They are obviously en route to North Africa now but it will be some time before they arrive. Here is the situation:

-Carthage is their capital. Large stone walls, full-stack garrison inside, another full-stack standing nearby. Thapsus is well-defended too.
-Their armies are in the Marius transition phase. Mostly the archers are Marian, infantry leans slightly towards pre-Marian. Lots of Triarii.
-A full-stack is heading toward Siwa, which will not be able to hold. I have an army en route to intercept, but it might not make it in time.
-I have around 3 high-tech armies heading towards the action, and am close to completing a fourth in Greece.
-They took Lilybaeum and may go for the other two settlements in Sicily. I'm beefing up the defenses and am fairly confident that I can repulse an assault.

If you kind souls could give me some battle tactics for dealing with the Roman threat it would be much appreciated. My armies have 1-2 generals, 5 Royal Pikemen, 3 gold-weapon archers, 4 Macedonian/Companion Cavalry, and 1-2 Onagers. I've dealt with Romans before but not this many.

Thanks in advance. :charge:

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Your basic army is pretty solid, but you have two disadvantages against early Marian romans -- the range of the AAs and the mix of legionary swords and triarii.

Pikes hold the infantry off pretty well, but must be in dense blocks to do so, leaving you prone to being flanked. If you have the transport, you might grab 2-3 units of Bastarnae to add as a second line with your pikes. That way, you can put the pikes in 4-5 row lines but feed the Bastarnae into the melee once the legionaries start breaking up the front of the Phalanx. Their armor is crap, but if the pikes take the rush, they can feed in nicely.

Cretans lose to AA, so I'd stick with your gold archers, but back them up a notch. Drop the onagers except for siege trains, add a couple more cav to hammer the AA's.

You know the tactics already, this is just to add a bit of robustness to your field force.

[leoforce]

Hey, i am playing macedonian and i realised a few things.

1) A good economy is important, most of my campaigns against greece involves bribing. Greece and Macedonian share a few units.

Peasants (duh)
Milltia Hoplites (ok..)
Greek Calvary (something)
Peltast (not sure with this)

2) Kill of the Romans, Never let them Expand into Greece

3) Watch your back at the start, Thrace isnt exactlly a nice neighbour.

4) My most important point, Time. In battles, Light Lancers are very important, I have tested the speed and it is around three times faster than roman equites.

Also roman post marius is quite a pain. Anyone have good strategies against it ?

[Phoenix]

In my Macedon Campaign I didn't encounter many Post-Marian armies but against the few I did I just used the usual tactics...pinned their infantry with Royal Pikemen while having Macedonian or Companion Cavalry go around a flank and hit the Romans from the rear. I always used some archers for support as well, either 2 Cretans or 3 standard. You can upgrade your standard archers to gold weapons if you retrain them in a Large Temple of Artemis which makes them very good.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Basic rule with Marian Romans is:

Use the same approach but have better troops.

Marian armies field well-armored swordsmen with pila all of whom have a 10 morale v. the 4 of your standard phalangite.

ANYTHING but a frontal assault that stays at spear range is going to turn against you. Their morale means that they'll take the casualties coming in and then cut you up and your sarissa boys will run. If you have a 2-4 chevron advantage in quality, however, your lads will be able to hold on long enough to allow you cav to hammer them from the sides/rear.

Remember to hit their cav hard as you begin your flank sweep, and use your best. Roman Cav and Legio Cav are high morale and decently armored, so you have to hit them hard to make them route out of your way. They aren't great attackers -- but then again your lancers arent' well armored so...

Don't bother fielding generic archers against the Marian Romans except as:
a) sacrificial lambs to draw his cav onto your pikes.
b) flank attack support who start well behind the line.
Regular archers against AA only serve as a way to get them to target your archers instead of your spears.

In general, you can beat them the same way you did the Republican Romans -- but you are going to take casualties. Marian armies have too high a morale to just melt away. So have your replacement forces coming up to fill the gaps in your ranks.

[Guyus Germanicus]

Seamus,

Your advice sounds very reasonable to me. I'm assuming you usually play RTW on vh/vh and h/h? (not my favorite levels) May I impose on you for a couple questions? Which, in your opinion, is the faction that handles the Marian Romans the best? Do you have any special tactics of your own that you use? The reason I ask is - the Marian Romans scare the crap out of me when I'm taking Seleucia or Egypt. When I'm taking a faction that's geographically close to Italy, I usually HAVE to deal with the Romans early, which means I'll knock them out before Marius. So far, I've had almost no experience fighting Marian armies with non-Roman factions.

In my own games, I tend to finish off the Romans before they get to Marian stages. But, I live in fear and trembling that I won't get to them before they start producing these "super" units. To me, the best strategy against Marian Romans is - kill them before they get to Marius. :)

Sounds to me like this would be a good subject for some experiments in the Custom Game option -- trying a few 'Marian heavy' armies against the best Macedonian units available. Macdonia's strength/depth in RTW is its cavalry. But even its best falls short against Marian cav units. The Mac phalanx units are adequate against most standard opponents, but they are not quite as good as the Greek's best. And I would think that for the most part they're going to be inadequate against the Marian Romans except in a nose-to-nose encounter, as you say. And even then, you'd better handle them judiciously - guard their flanks, probably with cavalry swarms. The trick is to get close enough to allow for the close encounter face off. The Marian Romans have so much depth that generally a Roman army doesn't meet a serious opponent (tech-wise) until they start having to fight each other in the Civil War phase of the game.

Just curious about your battlefield approach, Seamus. Again, forgive me if I'm imposing.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Varies depending on faction, of course, but I "turtle" my games so its fairly common for 1 or more Roman factions to survive to Marian levels -- often all 4 if I'm starting way out East.

Some basics:

Let them lay siege, but then sally from the stone walls. Only, don't sally with much -- just a unit or two that they can't resist coming after. Of course, atop the walls, you have your entrenched missile units to greet them. Do not let any significant hand-to-hand develop. When you run out of ammo, stop the battle. Repeat. This is one type of attrition that you can almost always win, and you have a great chance to deal out casualties regardless of experience level. I've broken the fighting strength of whole factions this way.

Set up on a narrow front. You can't envelop the computer unless you have
a lot more units. Crazy AI will set up one line 16 units long just dreaming of you matching it and creating a one-on-one unit engagement against its swords. Keep you cav/flankers behind the line and spring sideways as they close. If you start out to the flanks you will be met head on out at the flanks -- waste of good cav.

Use lots of cavalry -- though be careful not to use light cav frontally against marians. Creates a lot of steaks with plenty of Romans left to eat them. Remember, your "anvil" units will be taking a beating, so don't delay your flank strike for long. If they route and the Romani turn-to-face in time, all you do is make steaks.

Use Elephants (war+) to break their formations -- and then quickly add in some cav and/or light infantry. Keeps the hefalump casualties down and takes advantage of their shredded formations. Careful with the ele's, when tired, Romani cut them down pretty quick.

If spears are your primary infantry, have a thin screen of peltasts or cheap slingers in front of them, formation loose/no skirmish, to absorb the worst of the leader cav charges and pila shots. They'll break, but this usually leaves your Roman opponent at pike range with most of the steam off the charge.

Use cavalry against archer auxilia -- they'll be shooting your line, but that's the price you pay -- strike after they've stopped in a firing position. Sometimes, if there's only one or two, a jav-cav unit can lure them out of the fight for a while.

DON'T chase Roman routers until most of them are routing. They often return to discipline just as you catch them up again, and they you're in a fight in their rear with your flanks unguarded and no support -- risky position. However, feel free to chase with surviving missile at range, a few backshots and they may keep on running.

On siege assaults, always group towers together for firepower and hammer the wall defenders. Use ladders (if possible) on other undefended points to steal towers and gates that they're not actively defending. Slingers and such that shoot well from walls are a good tool here.

...so much more, but mostly type specific to nations/units...

[Guyus Germanicus]

Sounds like Carthage is a favorite of yours for a Marian Roman opponent.

I have definitely noticed how the AI likes to spread it's infantry (and sometimes even its skirmishers) into one long line. If it's skirmishers holding up the ends of the line, I sick the doggies on them. It distracts the edges of the line enough that I can slip the cav by them or simply run the cav over top of them. That weakness usually costs the AI the battle as once the cav gets behind the line, I'm going to get the AI infantry in the rear.

I will have to do some practice runs in the Custom game on some of the siege tower tactics you mention.

I tend to favor Cretan archers as a main support behind my frontline, (when I can get them), whereas I move Balearic or Rhodian slingers onto the frontline with cav just behind them to move forward if the AI tries to run them down in a frontal charge. My guess is - against Marian Romans the slingers will have a limited effectiveness.

I've noticed that if the AI has it's best infantry on the walls, it's going to be tough sledding - lots of casualties. Once I get a section of wall though, I rush archers or peltasts up the siege towers and onto the walls. They can clear out the units just below the walls, then I can rush cavalry through the gates (assuming I've secured the gateway.)

"Turtling" - sounds like you're very methodical and deliberate in your campaign taking a slow pace. At vh/vh or h/h I think that's probably a good choice.

I took my own advice from my previous email and tried a Mac attack against a Marian Roman army. Gave both sides two units of archers and two units of javelin skirmishers. Gave Romans 3 Praetorians, 2 legionary cohorts, 2 infantry aux, 2 legion cav and two Roman cav. Macs had 5 Royal phalanx and one militia hoplite, 2 companion cav, 2 of the better Mac cav. Both armies had generals. I let the AI have Rome, set the difficulty on medium and I took the Macedonians. It wasn't easy, but I pulled off the win. the Roman AI tried to swarm my right with their cavalry. So I had to meet them with three of my cav plus my general. I didn't wait on them to attack me but hit one of the Roman cav units with all four of my cav units on the right. Then I sent my phalanx units one on one against the Roman infantry. My Cretan archers were a big aid.

I lost control of the battle from time to time. Had one phalanx rout. I lost about half my archers. (I think the Roman archers were concentrating on my Cretans.) Once I decimated the first Roman cav unit on the right, I started swarming the remaining cav with my cavalry force. (I think the AI was confused about my concentrating my cav force on one unit at a time.) I have tried as a rule when I'm dealing with a formidable AI cav enemy unit to swarm attack with 2-3 cav units. It cuts down on casualties and prevents my own units from routing as easily. I can usually pull it off even if my cav units are inferior to the AI opponent's cav.

Once I got most of the Romani cavalry out of the way, I could slowly turn the tide on the infantry battle. The royal phalanx units can hold the praetorians in place as long as the Praetorians don't get around their sides too much. (Where I had the most trouble on the line was where there were gaps between the royals. the preatorians and legionairies could pour around the side.) I'm not sure it would be wise as a rule to force the royals to hold for too long, especially if you play at the harder levels. Once I got the Roman cav out of the way, (and not without moderate casualties), I sent two units of cav to hit the archers and javelin skirmishers. I grouped two cav units to hit the Praetorians from behind. Even without cavalry support, the Praetorians have to be respected. Not so, necessarily, with the Royals, as phalanx are slower moving and can easily be maneuvered around to get hit in the "behind."

In the end, my royals had about 50% casualties. My cav about 40%. My archers 55% roughly. It was bloody. I was lucky, too, I didn't lose my general.

I have to call it an evening, but I shall reread your post and ponder on some of your counsel. I want to experiment with some tactics some more. And you all have motivated me to maybe try a Mac campaign here for my next RTW round.

Thanks for the return post, Seamus.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I love Cretans too -- especially as Mac has no choice for LR firepower otherwise. Have to set them to "counter-battery" the AA of a Roman force to keep them from getting chopped up too badly, though.

Never field 1 or 2 Cretans, always use 3-4 in squares, and take them off fire at will after the first 2-3 shots. You choose their targets -- and those targets should generally be one unit at a time to maximize the smackdown effect. Do not set up a fire group and assign targets that way, they'll simply go to fire at will regardless of what the gauge reads. The computer's goal is to have you kill your own phalanx line from the rear -- by targeting the closest romans and shooting through their backs (pet peeve).

Running Macs I try to field:

5 Phalanx, 2 Peltast/Illyrian/Sling, 2 Flanker (Bastarnae, Thracian, Spanish), 4 Cretan, 1 General, 4 Heavy Cav, 2 Lancer.


---Pelt(4 lines, loose, no skirm)----Pelt(4 lines, loose, no skirm)-----
Phalx (5 lin)--Phalx (3 lin)--Phalx (3 lin)--Phalx (3 lin)--Phalx (5 lin)--
Flanker (square)------------------------------------Flanker (square)
-------Cretan (sq)---Cretan (sq)---Cretan (sq)--Cretan (sq)-------
-------------------------------Gen-------------------------------
-HC---LC-----------------------------------------------LC----HC-
-HC----------------------------------------------------------HC-

Heavy Cavalry comes out wide to either side as Romans commit, pushes forward as they do, comes in double-envelopment style. LC follows, going wider and deeper to handle routers/kill archers/support the heavies. General acts as reserve and chases routers in the general chase phase. Peltasts take one for the team, route, hopefully return to discipline and then support the infantry flankers to either side.

[Empirate]

A tactic I have long wanted to try with a Phalanx-based army is the following:
Have at least six Phalanx units, preferably pikes. Set up two groups of three each, have these form a half-hexagon. Keep a gap in between them. Have the two middlemost units not yet engage Phalanx mode. Keep skirmishers, slingers etc. up front, tending to the middle. When the enemy approaches them, run them to the centre of your formation and through the gap between the two Phalanx half-hexagons. The AI, already committed to chase them, will end up between your two mini-formations.

.....................ssssssssssssssss..........................
......................................................................
............PPPPPPP.................PPPPPPP..................
.........PPP........PPP..........PPP........PPP................
.......PPP.............PPP....PPP..............PPP.............


Like this at the beginning. Once the enemy runs into the gap, advance your Phalanx from both sides, keeping the outermost Phalanx units facing more or less forward still, in case the enemy inf line is long and not all committed. Skirmishers and slingers can duck behind the two buckles of your Phalanx and be drawn out to the flanks. Cavalry protects flanks and comes around to take the enemy from behind. Enemy troops should by this point be either in the meat grinder between two Phalanges or congested in a clump in front of them, so they're easy pickings for cavalry. For this to work the enemy must be drawn out by slinger/skirmisher fire, and you can expect to lose some of these, but they're cheap. The Macedon army would be perfect for this kind of trap, as their Pikemen can hold out long and have tough morale, so they will stay in formation even when separated into two mini-formation-blocks.
Even if the enemy overloads on one flank and tries to get in behind your Phalanx half-hexes, they can hold out until relieved. I have found mini-formations of three Phalanx units in half-hex to be a very durable, and, what is more, self-sustaining, compound, especially when supported by one or two archer (Cretan) unit inside.

[Guyus Germanicus]

Thanks Seamus and Empirate. I printed your posts for future reference.

I tried a couple experiments last night in the custom game. I took five Praetorians and had them face off with five royal pikemen, and another match of 4 vs 4 units. Medium difficulty setting. Without support, the pikemen just can't stand alone against the prateorians. In only one situation did I get a prateorian unit to rout and that was because I had the pikemen facing downhill and the praetorians were trying to charge uphill into the sarissas. It's the gaps! If the Praetorians get around the sides, they win every time. Amazingly, however, the royals show very good stamina against their opponents. The fights did not end quickly. So, the royals can "hold" if you can just get something around the Roman line to flank or hit them from the rear.

I usually try to grab 2 cretans for my standard army formations. But in one recent game (can't remember which faction I was playing) I had an army with four Cretan archer units. The Cretans just showered the enemy armies from long range. It was butchery. :skull: I decided from that moment that in future games I would try to make 3-4 Cretans a standard for future formations. You can't do it for every army in your faction, just not enough opportunities to buy so many archers. But they are very, very effective. So, I concur, Seamus, with your Mac formation content.

Thank you, guys, for your posts.

[Guyus Germanicus]

Seamus,

Interesting last few posts.

Am rereading Empirate's post now. There are some nuances to combat tactics possible in RTW that I am still discovering. I'm rather "thick" at times in my thinking. It's been helpful to contrast my tactics and impressions with the experiences of other Guild members.

I definitely need to get back to a Mac campaign.

[Phoenix]

Phalanx troops, especially Pikemen, can hold out much better if you don't leave any gaps between the units...in my Macedonian campaign the Royal Pikemen could hold their own against Praetorians since I didn't leave any gaps between them. While this reduces their frontage I didn't find that to be a problem since I would fold back one or both flanks and always had the advantage in cavalry.

[Guyus Germanicus]

P -
Very true. In my staged trial in the custom game the AI showed a little cleverness. It shifted the praetorian units around so that they didn't approach my line in a straight line. One unit broke out alone to my right, two units approached my center and one unit broke off to my left. The one on my left was the one that had to approach my royal phalnx uphill. That was the one that routed that I mentioned in a previous post. The AI held one praetorian in reserve. My right posted royal pikemen broke first. The center held and I tried to bring my victorious left wing in to support the center. But the "victorious" praetorian hit my right. In spite of that, the center held for a long time before it finally routed. Praetorians do not have to hold formation with the same discipline as a phalanx unit, so they do tend to flow out around your pikemen. Definitely my line discipline could stand improvement.

It's wise, even with phalanx armies, to hold a reserve so as to plug gaps or press an advantage. A tactic that I have tried to employ more in my own combats.

[Empirate]

I can only second Phoenix! You must not leave gaps in your Phalanx line. Rather, deploy them so they overlap slightly. This way, even gentle bends and corners in your formation don't matter. If I use a Phalanx-heavy army, meaning at least six P units, I like to have them in one huge, continuous Phalanx, all abreast of each other, leaving absolutely no gaps. The two outmost units are bent back a little, so they're less easily flanked. Cavalry or whatever mobile units I have are deployed either a bit back or far out on one or both flanks. The center right behind the Phalanx is taken by archers.

Slingers, if I have them, pose a problem: They can't stand out in front because getting back through the Phalanx is tricky. I've had some success with putting a unit of slingers right before a unit of Pikemen that was not in Phalanx mode. When the enemy approached, the slingers retreated (with time to spare), and the Pikemen were put in Phalanx mode as soon as the last slingers had passed their front rank, nicely spitting the unsuspecting enemy on six yards of spear. But timing is tricky with this scheme. Deploying slingers out on the flanks, on the other hand, can draw the enemy there and lead to them flanking your Phalanx more easily. So normally I try to take archers/Onagers for missile troops and skip slingers, saving these for armies that are built around a more mobile infantry core.

[Poulp']

Empirate,

you can use more efficiently with a little more patience; I use this tactic playing as Carthagenians but Macs can do do it with Rhodians slingers.

Place your slingers on the flank behind your phalanx line (usually near the cav), and wait for the opposing army to engage your line, then have your slingers run and place them in the back of the opposing melee units. From there on , you can:
1) "gunsling" the shield-less melee ennemies
2) draw the opposing archers' attention until the cav arrives (loose formation)
3) if the enemy general is not in combat already, slingers make the perfect bait to hold him and have your cav trample him
... of course, switch skirmsih mode off (I forgot and learned the hard way)

Yes, they'll take heavy casualties, but that's their job; drawing the attention of free-to-move enemy units so that your more precious units make it.
Slingers are easily refit in any practice range, Rhodians are more problematic but I don't mind sacrificing them... (unlike Cretians archers; those guys are just too valuable to have one of them die)

Placing slingers in the outflanking force solves the problem of having them run to safety behind your own line. However, I don't use this tactic for my campaigning army; it is usually too far from my cities to retrain immediately after battle, every man counts when you're 2 turns or more from home.

[Empirate]

Thanks for the tip. Slingers as flanking infantry might work well. However, I don't tend to use any units as bait. I just don't like my men dying on me in the worst way. Besides, whenever I use slingers at all, it will be Rhodians or Balearics, not generic ones. Generics are not worth building at all imo. And Rhodians / Balearics are hard to resupply after taking casualties.
Rhodians have actually performed well for me in my recent Seleucid campaign. But they're for more specialized duty, not easily incorporated into my main field armies. They can be killers whenever they have a height advantage, meaning they're good on city walls (shooting inside, so a great unit when attacking cities!) and in the mountains. If the enemy have no cavalry, they're also very good against melee infantry. THE job for slingers is taking out Thracian Mercenaries, Bastarnae, all kinds of Gladiators, and Falxmen - dangerous melee infantry without much of a shield. Slingers can totally devastate them in mere moments.
Still, these troops don't pose much of a challenge to a decent Phalanx, so I'll go without slingers with Macedon, Greece and so on.

[Guyus Germanicus]

Emp & Poulp -

Actually when I think about it, I don't use a lot of slingers in my phalanx armies. I have used Balearics a great deal when I'm playing Carthage. But, in the early Carth game, you aren't managing phalanx armies as much as infantry armies - Iberians, Libyans, etc. Then, I do station slingers on the front line, but to one side. I usually bring the two from Palma and combine them with the one in Corduba to make three. When I station them on the line, I place them all together as if they were one unit. I always have them backed-up by a cavalry unit in case the AI decides to go after them. My general is in support too. Balearics embedded three deep are devastating and give similar results as having 3-4 Cretan archers. Unarmored infantry are decimated against them. I've not found slingers very useful storming inside cities. I can use them on stone walls to good effect. But I never drag them through city streets. They're just too vulnerable. Truly, slingers are a specialized tool. They can't be used in every circumstance.

Poulp's tactical suggestion on slingers has merit. And, I have actually done that a couple times. But it's not a regular tactic. My phalanx armies are never without cav support, except in rare circumstances when they are simply replacement armies hanging behind my General's spearhead army ready to feed replacement units after a combat. I tend not to commit unsupported phalanx armies unless the enemy is also unsupported. Thankfully, I haven't been ambushed much. [Spies, spies, spies!]

I agree - Rhodians & Balearics are the only truly good slingers. I, too, avoid building the generic slingers for Carthage. They just aren't worth the waste of money to me. And, too, I hate sacrificing my guys as "cannon fodder" or sacrificial lambs to an enemy army. It spoils part of my fantasy as being an ancient army general. [In truth, if I really was an ancient army general, my soldiers would probably cut me up for kabobs for the war dogs for my incompetence. :) ]

I get into ruts in my tactics and troop handling. So, I've appreciated the independent observations. I shall tighten up my phalanx discipline. One of the reasons I like the bowed line idea that Emp mentioned earlier and showed in his diagram is that it curves the edges of the phalanx line giving added flank protection. The units in a concave line, once they make contact with the enemy, collapse together making the gaps disappear. Excellent idea.

I experimented with a one-on-one in the custom game pitting a royal pikeman vs. praetorian. Without upgraded weapons or experience differences, the praetorian won the mano-a-mano. But if I gave the royal two experience chevrons, they kicked butt decisively. Chances are in the late game, the Romans will be cranking out praetorians with upgraded weapons and/or experience chevrons. But it's nice to know the royals can perform against the Roman's best. And if you give them some kind of edge, they might be able to win on their own. With the Macs, [and I started a game yesterday], it's getting the city populations up so I can crank out the Macedonian and Companion cav units.

All-in-all I've successfully managed my phalanx armies in past games, but I have not been happy with my line discipline in some combats. I get in a hurry, and then suffer more casualties than needed. If these were real men I was mishandling, I would weep instead of sleeping at night.

Good posts.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Yep, taking casualties because of your mistakes is vexing -- but it also represents some of the game's fun. It does hammer you for some mistakes.

Don't dismiss generic slingers too quickly. The have too little range to do well in the open field, and the low morale/armor typical of 1st level missile troops, but they have LOTS of ammo, outrange peltasts, and do surprisingly well as firepower from a stone wall defense. In the field, I use them as my expendables -- they sit with skirmish off, in loose formation, just in front of the spears. Adds some firepower to the line, draws enemy missile fire away from my main line, and sometimes the enemy cav will go after them -- crashing all the way through their formation and arriving at slow speed right on the points of my phalanx.:2thumbsup:

[Guyus Germanicus]

I have to say - I am amazed at times how the AI looks at your slingers, standing out there in front or to the side of your main line, and cannot apparently resist the temptation to charge a cavalry unit (often the AI general himself) straight at them regardless of the consequences to the cavalry unit or, for that matter, the "whole" battle. The AI has even done that to my wardog handlers (even AFTER the dogs were released.) It's like holding red meat in front of a starving lion.

Needless to say, the AI cav may kill a few helpless handlers or slingers, but it doesn't let them off a death sentence. :no: In consequence, I've learned to be very protective of my dog handlers after release. When the AI wastes its general going after a few helpless slingers, the tide has turned in my favor right there. They are, indeed, good bait.

[Guyus Germanicus]

I'm in the full throes of a Mac attack. Started a campaign two nights ago. It's going well "Gyras the Conqueror" has secured Tarentum and Croton. The Brutii are toast, Thrace is on the ropes. I possess Rhodes and Pergamum and Halicarnassus. Pontus is eyeing me suspiciously. And the Scipii and Rome are my next targets. The Greeks have only Syracuse left to them. At the moment I'm allied to Carthage and Scythia.

Have taken more care in phalanx formations. But the AI will try to disturb the continuity of your formation by dancing around a lot, moving its units around to get you to break formation. Am adjusting the formation to erase gaps before marching forward. After studying the point assignments for Macedonian cavalry, I noticed that the light lancers actually have a slightly better offensive capability than the Greek cavalry. Greek cav are stronger defensively. So a good early Mac cav contingent should have a mixture of both, probably. Gaining experience chevrons has been a big help for the cav. Phalnx pikemen are my mainstay infantry at the moment.

I want to slow down my expansion to give my tech development a chance to catch up. My two most formidable future adversaries will undoubtedly be Carthage and Egypt. And after pondering Master Fermanagh's posts, I feel there is great wisdom in "turtling" one's campaign. At the moment, I'm having to do a lot of troop shuttling to replace unit losses. I don't like using up units completely if they have experience chevrons. I prefer to retain them as they are more effective in battle. I try to keep a replacement army just behind my spearhead army that is about half the size to keep fresh troops supplied to the leading general. They occasionally become handy in a pinch if a new threat develops. Throw a couple extra units in a replacement army and you have a new army that might be a "shield and sword" to protect a new flank vulnerability. My fleets are kept busy keeping the sealanes open and shuttling troops back and forth between Sparta, Thessalonica, and Larisima (sp). Athens is showing a 4000+ denarii figure, so it's pulling its weight and thensome.

I'm buying Cretan archers at every opportunity. Trade income is about to take off and I may be able to bribe Sardis into the fold.

Need to vary my use of siege towers a bit. Once Rome is out of the way, I want to move toward Egypt, taking a page from Alexander's book.

Money, profits, SLAVES, WOMEN!! :laugh4: yeeehah!

. . . guess I'm getting carried away, what?

[Poulp']

About gaps in the phalanx line:

How do you organize your units on the field? Do you run a single group of 9 units, 3 groups of 3 units or, (what I'm doing now) 4 groups of 2 and a unit in reserve?

I used to group all my phalanxes into one long line. One group of 9 made my phalanxes easier to move and rotate but I had to micromanage to adapt my line to the opponent's move.
Then, I began to organize my line into 3 groups of 3; that way I could bend my line more easily and order my units to enter into phalanx mode more accurately (with just a quick look at my radar map). At the same time, the other pikemen remained mobile enough to fill or exploit gaps in my line.

Now I run tag teams; 4 groups of 2 phalanxes each. One unit is deployed as a long line while the other is deployed in a square. The wide phalanx is usually the one engaged by the opponent, and I flank the opponent's unit with the other phalanx; it is a mini version of the hammer and anvil.
Also, having 4 groups is the same as having 3 groups of 3; my line is more mobile and adaptive than a single group.

https://img116.imageshack.us/img116/2881/mac05oa2.jpg

This deployment leaves me with gaps in the line, but gaps don't matter that much since my line can curve and envelop the opposing army. I also use those gaps to have a heavy cavalry unit deployed in wedge formation engage the opponent directly from the front, the opposing unit usually breaks on impact, is overrun by the cav who is now behind the enemy line. (it doesn't work against other phalanx army though)


A short note about slingers:

In the long run, using slingers aggressively has an unexcepted consequence; even a few survivors can chase routing units and keep on the run. In my Carthagenian campaign, my slingers units were the first to reach the golden chevrons, along with my round shield cavalry... They're some kind of un-mounted militia cav.

Just remember to tell your slingers that the unit they're facing shouted "Jehova"

[Guyus Germanicus]

Poulp'

For my part, I think you're technique sounds just fine. Perhaps Empirate could chime in here to offer some thoughts. His posts have shown some creativity on phalanx use, and Seamus handles his army deftly from the impression I've gained from his posts. My phalanx dispositions are very simple and are usually one long line. But admittedly, it's not proving flexible enough for all my circumstances. In fact, I like your idea of the tag teams, even 3x3x3 or 4x4/1 seems to have more flexibility then my method. But, I usually don't have that many phalnx units in one army. My typical disposition is 5 or 6 abreast, front-and-center. I have supplemented sometimes with Thracian mercenaries on a flank. (I'm still playing too fast and being too inflexible.) My armies are cav heavy with 5-6 units, not counting the general, and I'm not sure I want to change that. I try to keep 2-3 skirmishers and 2-3 archers behind. Perhaps if I went to 7 units, one facing line of 3 with two tag teams of 2, it would give me more capability. Much, of course, depends on the enemy army you're facing.

Your tag teams should give you enough flexibility to make gaps a superfluous issue in most situations. Sounds good to me. I think you've found a good technique that works for you.

To get rid of line gaps in my initial disposition, I put the phalanx units in standard formation and then press the '=' key to get the line to widen. Each '=' keystroke widens your unit's formation, and makes it more shallow at the same time. Each '-' keystroke, thickens your unit's position narrowing the unit's facing while increasing its depth. I'm not sure if those two keystroke functions are widely known by RTW players. But they've been very useful to me.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

To get rid of line gaps in my initial disposition, I put the phalanx units in standard formation and then press the '=' key to get the line to widen. Each '=' keystroke widens your unit's formation, and makes it more shallow at the same time. Each '-' keystroke, thickens your unit's position narrowing the unit's facing while increasing its depth. I'm not sure if those two keystroke functions are widely known by RTW players. But they've been very useful to me.

My formation above assumed this. Never thin your phalanx below three lines though -- and 4 is usually better. 5+ lines gives you a reserve, but narrows your front.

I rarely manuever my phalanx in groups, preferring individual commands as things get hairy. Remember, if they are out of phalanx formation, they move just as well as any other med/hvy infantry. The trick is to arrive at the key point with 0.5 seconds left to go into formation for the killing.

Reserve armies following on are a good tool.

Try a garrison army following that:

3 milhop/levpike, 4 peasant, 1 milcav/grkcav, 1 peltast. Your strike army pulls out one turn after taking the place and this group plops in to subjugate. Costs about 1k upkeep to field.

[Guyus Germanicus]

My formation above assumed this. Never thin your phalanx below three lines though -- and 4 is usually better. 5+ lines gives you a reserve, but narrows your front.

Excellent point about line depth. You don't want to make the line too thin, otherwise the AI will punch a whole through it and get in your rear. Watching my custom combats with phalanx one notices that as the phalnx takes casualties the back soldiers filter toward the front and replace the casualties. You want some reserves in depth for attrition.


I rarely manuever my phalanx in groups, preferring individual commands as things get hairy.

. . . which is pretty much what I've been doing, but I've wondered if there wasn't a better way of doing business. As it is, I'm not taking a lot of casualties doing what I've always done. The phalanx seems to have a great deal of potential in spite of the Roman cohort as an "improvement." Our colleagues in the Guild have shown quite a diversity in the way they use it.


Reserve armies following on are a good tool

Try a garrison army following that:

3 milhop/levpike, 4 peasant, 1 milcav/grkcav, 1 peltast. Your strike army pulls out one turn after taking the place and this group plops in to subjugate. Costs about 1k upkeep to field.

Interesting . . . especially the cost you mention, which seems very economical. It would bring more order to the campaign as well. I had thought about doing something similar but just hadn't worked it through. I usually garrison more lightly. But a modified concept to your idea - a running garrison army that bleeds off units with each city conquered sounds appealing to me. What I've been doing: as I conquer a new city I prime the local garrison with units from the conquering army that are growing obsolete with the advances in my tech tree. Then I replace the units I've used as garrison with more up-to-date units or fresh mercenaries. Partially used up merc units can be used as garrison fodder, and then act as replacements as newer mercenary units take casualties in subsequent combats. Ahhh logistics.

Speaking of cannon fodder . . . I was reading Adrian Goldsworthy's book "The Punic Wars" on the battle of Zama. Scipio had positioned his line with Hastatii in front followed by Principes, followed by Triarii. His laned columns allowed Hannibal's ellies to pass through. Hannibal placed all his lower grade infantry up front keeping his elite with him at the back of the line. Had the Roman cavalry force not returned to the field after chasing off the Carthaginian cavalry, Hannibal's cannon fodder troops might have worn down the Roman troops enough so that his elite force could carry the day. Some of his fodder troops rallied retreating through his lines. The Hastatii were definitely worn out. However, the Numidian cavalry returned to the field and hit Hannibal's elite troops in the rear. Interesting account. So, I guess the moral is - even ancient generals did what they thought they had to to win even if it meant sacrificing human lives.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Regrettably, in real life, that is the calculus of combat. Sometimes you spend lives simply to buy time (Leonidas and company), other times you spend lives to divert attention (Italian 10th corps at Gazala). Back in Scipio's day, you couldn't use firepower to suppress either -- tough stuff.

I often base the broken merc units at a city near the fighting so that they act as a sort of repple-depple. Another fine use, after combining the fragments, is to send the 3 leftover peltasts to garrison a fort.

[Empirate]

Further thoughts on Phalanx usage:
Actually, I don't use Phalanx units as the killing power of my armies. They're there to support battlefield domination, not rout and kill the enemy troops. I see it this way: Where your Phalanx stands, the enemy cannot go without suffering a lot of casualties, fast. If you can lure or force them to go there, the battle is won. Tougher units that cannot be killed by Phalanx are held at bay and take a loooong time to work their way through them even if they manage to get past the sarissas. This gives your mobile arm time and space to deploy and mow them down. I've never fielded an army with more than nine Phalanx units, leaving ample space in my stack for missile support and cavalry killing power. Usually, I use six Phalanx units, four missile, and all the rest cavalry (or equivalent, e. g. Chariots or Elephants). Six Phalanx units with missile support is sufficient to draw the enemy to you, and command the best part of the battlefield. The enemy can either try to pass them by, all the while whittled down by missiles they can't get at, or engage them directly. If the enemy hopes to attack my mobile forces on the flanks first, fine: Those can easily evade combat if it looks like trouble locally, withdrawing behind the Phalanx.
So Phalanx troops are like a solid, unsurmountable (or at least, not easily surmountable) obstacle. The obstacle is mobile, and has one side that can kill, and kill quickly. This gives you power over the battlefield. If the enemy has Phalanx, too, I can stop this using my Phalanx, then use my mobile forces to quickly destroy them. If the enemy relies on cavalry, you can take shelter behind your mobile obstacle and pepper them with missiles, then engage when and where favorable.
Having two or more batches of Phalanx is a minor nuance on this theme: You now have more and smaller obstacles. The basic idea stays the same: Force the enemy to hit the spearwall, or use it to create opportunities to strike out with mobile troops.

EDIT: A further reason not to use Phalanx units as the killing power of your armies is the following: Phalanx troops, especially Pikemen, are large units. This means they have to kill a lot of men before earning any experience chevrons. It's much easier for your cavalry to achieve valor in the triple-silver range than for your Phalanx units, making them ever so much more devastating. If you see Phalanx units as a mobile, deadly obstacle that can shape the battlefield for you, they don't need additional levels of experience to perform well.

[Guyus Germanicus]

Once again, some interesting thoughts in your posts, gentlemen. I must have printed the last couple pages of this thread 4 or 5 times now just to save the dialogue. (Is quadrologue a word?) :)

I'm starving for lunch so I will try to make this brief,(HA!) but I wanted to share an update. Borrowing on a couple recent ideas shared in this thread, I staggered the end units of my phalanx line in my most recent Mac campaign. I have been fielding 7 phlanx units now, consisting mainly of phalanx pikemen, the level just below the royals. My dispositions generally have taken on the form below.

-------- ----------------- pp pp pp pp pp
--------- gc gc ll ------ pp - mj mp mp -- pp ----- ll gc gc
----------------------------- ca ca
------------------------------ gen

(The armies I'm marching on Egypt have the Greek cav replaced by mac cav. And 3 or 4 of the pikers are royals.)

The indented phalanx units (pp) are only set back about 3/4 of their full length, and the pikemen in the five unit facing I have overlapped so that there are no gaps. The number of Cretan Archers I employ has unfortunately depended on their availabilility. So I have either substitued extra peltasts, ballistas, or Mac archers. Phalanx pikemen are the highest quality of pikers I can recruit in large numbers. I'm producing the royals now in my game (I'm 12 cities away from victory condition.) But even with three cities producing, I'm not getting the royals out in sufficient numbers to replace the phlanx pikers. And I need units that I can feed replacements to.

This small change in my phalanx disposition has made a great deal of difference in my line discipline. I'm dominating the field more even against large armies. I think increasing the number of pikers in my standard army along with the line adjustments was equally important. One thing that I may try as an addition to this plan is to have one militia hoplite stationed close to my general for flank and rear protection. Then, using him for garrison "fodder" when a city falls, replacing him in the army at convenience.

I'm marching these seven unit fronts straight into the teeth of the enemy line. They are holding up well, and with the large cav contigent, I'm able to take advantage of their hold to get units behind the enemy line. But I AM letting them carry some of the load in the combat.

In city streets, 5-7 pikers stacked as one unit are devastating to charging cav. War dogs become kabobs, and the hastatii don't like it too much either. Small rebel bands get ground to hamburger as I am able to fold the phlanx line around them from both flanks. Egyptian chariots are not faring well against the line either. My heaviest casualties have come on stone walls against principes.

I am managing to get my pikers some experience chevrons along the way. But the cav are the ones that usually acquire this "glory" more frequently as Empirate has noted.

The Romans are caput now. Carthage and Scythia are still allied to me but they're wary. I tried giving Scythia their capital city back after taking it from the Dacians, but the Scyths refused the gift. Amazing! I've bribed three provinces away from the Pontids. And the Egyptians did me the favor of attacking me. Salamis is lightly garrisoned and my navy is strong, so it's going to be an early target.

No sign of the companions yet. I need to check the tech tree to see how they're produced. Wish the Greek Cities produced better cavalry. It's chow time. Have really enjoyed the exchanges. More later . . .

[Poulp']

First, I have a question:
What does "mj" and "mp" stand for?
I guess "pp" mean phalanx pikemen, "gc" greek cav, "ll" light lancers", and "ca" cretan archers.
Are "mj" and "mp" mercenaries or macedonians?

If it is mercenary peltasts, then I think they are a fine choice; mercenaries or Illyrians are better suited to stand in the second line than regular ones since they are better in hand to hand.

This leads me to the second part of my thoughts. You said you considered taking militia hoplites as a reserve. In my experience, they make a bad reserve. Strange as it may seem, "mh" are better in the front line; as long as they are wielding their pike, they can hold the line well enough but their ability with a sword is way too low.
The royal pikemen you consider fielding shall make a good reserve; their number is too low to field an army of them and more importantly, reserves sometimes have to rush into melee and engage their opponent with their sword.

This is why I think royals are more suited to do the rear guard duty than mere militia.
After all, who would you trust to protect your army? The best men of Macedon or untrained troops you recruted in one of your conquered province?

About Egypt: if you have both Salamis and Cyrene, you can ship troops into Egypt really easily. Logistics goes more smoothly when you have two supply lines.

[Guyus Germanicus]

Sorry about the abbreviations, Poulp.

'MJ' is for Macedonian javelin throwers and 'MP,' as you guessed, is mercenary peltasts. When the money is available and speed of deployment of a field army is crucial, I concentrate my recruiting on cav and pikemen and then buy some peltasts because they are of slightly better quality than Macedonia's home grown variety.

Also, at the moment I do have Salamis and Cyrene, AND Tarsis. Memphis and Thebes are under siege. I literally bribed two Egyptian armies out of existance. I have three armies and a small reserve contingent en rout to the Egyptian theatre. Besides the two armies carrying out siege duty on the Nile, I have one more army guarding the bridge over the Nile just south of Memphis. A small reserve army is building watch towers in the desert between Cyrene and Siwa. So only five more cities to take to reach the victory condition. They will probably be Lovice in Central Europe, Tanais (Rostov) on the Don River, Memphis, Alexandria and Thebes.

I may have all this done before I build a royal palace to enable royal stables for Companion cavalry. So, I guess I didn't turtle my game enough.

I shall probably try another game with Mac after this one, but slow things down a bit and try some variations on my formations. I may try to go with 1 or 2 more pike units in my standard army. I've had a boatload of good generals in this game. Did have a couple of wastrels. They're good for babysitting reserve armies and building watchtowers and forts - kind of like fence riders on a cattle ranch. They're not top hands, and you wouldn't want them doing the bookkeeping (governing cities), but they can still do some essentials.

[Poulp']

Well it seems your campaign is going great.

Do you have Siwa? If not, you should conquer it as your last and 50th province.
It is a fine last step to end your campaign; finishing it where Alexander met the oracle.

[Guyus Germanicus]

Finished my Mac campaign. Had one awful battle at the bridge just south of Alexandria. The Egyptians tried to force a crossing and it was a bloodbath. Four of my pike units held the bridge backed up by skirmishers and camel archers. I wouldn't wish such slaughter on my worst enemy. But they just kept coming. Alexandria fell, and I had Antioch under siege at the end. But I stopped the game at 50 cities. I will probably start another game soon, but want to put off a few days before starting another so I don't burn out.

I did appreciate all the feedback from my fellow guilders. A tip 'a the hat to you all.

I may activate Armenia just for grins and take them for a test drive. I like some of their units.

[Pretorian Guard]

Hello
I need some help with upgrading the generals' bodyguards. I have v1.0 and i can't upgrade any generals' bodyguards. I've been looking the different desc_texts and I can't find how to tweak everything to make this feature appear. by the way I just love being able to use bribing!!!! Perhaps some can give me and answer or it's just a bug from thegame only to be solved by downloading a patch...???

[Ludens]

Upgraded bodyguards should become available after the Marian reforms. Incidentally, it is highly recommended that you play with the latest patch (R:TW 1.5 of BI 1.6) installed, as they solve many problems with the engine.

[Au Dio]

I tried unlocking the factions with the edit example but it doesnt seem to be working? What am I doing wrong? Should I expect to see the factions imediatley available in the new campaign screen or do I have to conquer that faction first? Anything helps thanks!

[Phoenix]

If you placed it under playable then it should be playable immediately. I think you also need to have the factions lined up directly under each other.

[Moosemanmoo]

:help:
I made all the factions (exept slave) playable like you said but Macedon and Pontus are the only ones that work, when I select any other faction in the imperial campaign the whole game turns off. What can i do?

[Phoenix]

No other factions except Macedon and Pontus work for you? Never heard of that problem before but I think you need to leave 2 factions unplayable. Try moving the Senate to nonplayable and see if that helps.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

As Phoenix suggests, but uninstall and reinstall to give it a clean start.

[RexCroatorum]

The most interestig nations. I had found very good strategy to play with Macedonians. At the beggining create only money buildings and no army. With levy pikeman and lancers conquer Greek towns in Motherland and aly with Thracians, Romans, Pontus, Selucia, Scynthia and Dacia. When you have conquered Motherland and Kydonia without messing with Romans and Thracians(they are very loyal aly) and you get the towns In Asia minor and Rhodos. When you finished war with greeks who luckily occupy whole Greece you should protect all paths thro mountains and all brifges you should develop your citys and do not mess with anybody for 2-3 years. A lot of money I was gathered in my empire(100,000). I started building three stacks of army(royal pikeman, macedonias cavalary) and two fleets full of trirerm. After all preparation I attacked Italy and conquered all brutiai and scipiai towns. Only to show about the whealt of Macedonia, Athene(4235 per turn), Sparta(3500), Kydonia(3125), Thessalonika(2800), Rhodos(3150), appolonia(3000)... Advice - Create your army with falang units and Macedonians. Do not EVER attack, wait to be attacked, the defence ist best attack. Also before going on east you must create solid and wealthi main kingdom in Greece, ilyricum and Italy, and also be in very good relations with Gauls.

[RexCroatorum]

Everybody. sorry for bad english in post above, that happen when you play RTW on one copmuter and post here in the other comp. I also wanted to start a discussion about combination of troops that each players prefer for Slucids, Greeks, Macedonians, Thracians and Pontus.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Field Fighting forces for Selkies, Greeks, Macs are all pretty well the same for me.

Line of spears in phalanx, but not stacked more than 5 deep. (6)

Fronted by loose thin belt of peltasts/cheap slingers to slow charges & (sometimes) draw cav to spears. (2)

Backed by best archers available. (3-4)

Tucked in flanker infantry ready to go around the sides or prevent a flanking. (2). Selkies use legio, Greeksor Macs use Illyrians/Bast'nae.

1 Commanding officer -- usually not a combatant save during route or moment of crisis.

6 Cavalry, usually 4 heavy (general, companion, sarmatian) 1 Lt (lancer or greek) to chase routers, & 1 skirmisher (javcav or scythian) used to annoy, harass or draw a unit or two out of the fight.


Thracians are different. Missile component weak, so I try to use phalanx on the flanks and have the middle full of falx or bast'nae. Some archers for support (Cretans if I can for the range) and a little light cav/general cav for quick punch. Key with them is to minimize time under missile fire -- they drop way too fast so you conserve energy, keep the flanks solid, and then burst rapidly on your target.

[RexCroatorum]

I have few friends that are huge fans of RTW and alll the rest of TW series. We dont like to use peltast and skirmishers(very small range of fire) so I wanted to know why do you all on internet use them. I also wanted to know how do you resolve friendly fire casulties from archers. Archers doesnt obey very well, I order to shout at the hastati while I am fighting their cavalary with my general but they constantly(in every battle) fire all over the place and several times they killed my general. I think that the best formation for falang is to put them in circle whit one unit coverig the rest and just wait for them to run on your spear and with your cavalary massacre their archers, this especially work pretty well against romans.

[RexCroatorum]

I have interesting tactic for romans and gauls, i play only with phalanx and create 4 line circle on the battlefield. I wait them to attack me and then I massacre

[Gizmo04]

Hey all, I just started playing as the Macedonians just last night and I was very amazed at how far I got! I started out by taking Byzantium, which is very lucrative in trade. Then I took Sparta and Thermon, afterwards signing a cease-fire with the Greeks, I just wanted them off the Greecian peninsula, with a very high cost of 17495 denarii, :furious3: which I felt was a bit insane! Next Brutii attacked me, predictable, so I began a campaign against the Romans, which went REALLY well because I had taken Appolina and Salona, pushing them back to Italy, then I gathered quite an impressive army of Pikemen, or hypaspists, and sent them to Tarentum and... Croton... I think? :inquisitive: Well that effectively wiped out Brutii. Then came Scipii... quite a difficult seige happened at Tarentum, I could tell from their 1134 massed stack that they really wanted the town, but I showed them!! Then I took Capua then Rome!! :2thumbsup: I then created a watchtower border with Julii. No attack from them yet so I sent my Faction heir with an army of... I think 976 men, which included Greek Cavalry, Royal Pikemen and Archers over too Massila which gives me an effective landing area to wipe out the Scipii on Sicily. The year I decided to call it quits was 237 BC. This was the furthest I've ever been with a non-roman faction and I felt quite proud.

Oh words of advise I found that placing, if you have enough, your Phalanx troops in a box formation with your general in the middle, ofcourse, you really can hold out against a massive army. The Senate's army had extremely skilled velities, hestati, principes and 4 roman generals. The funny thing was right at the start all they did was charge head long into the huge spear wall... quite daft if you ask me... It just solidified my win. they lost all thier men whereas I lost I think about 150-200 of my men. Sometimes the AI can be silly but it helped!!!:2thumbsup: :2thumbsup:

[Rotc_Railey15]

Right now ive destroyed Thrace, at war w/ Brutii, greeks, and Scythians. The Romans and Greeks actually made an alliance with each other! Has this ever happened to any of you playing against AI??? The Scythians were already allied w/ Thrace and felt threatend by my presence. The Dacians were my allies till they broke alliance since Scythia was also their allies. So ill probably have the Dacians attack me next. But the war is going alright. I had a heroic victory against and full sized Greek army and I have captured Thermon from the Greeks so they are out of my way for now.

Just need to focus on Romans, kick them out of balkans and then take on the Scythians and maybe Dacians.

[Vitellus]

Ooh, I liked this campaign. 's still going, but so far:

First off, I nabbed Athens with the Crown Prince, Gyras, and his army. Stuffing it full of archers, pikemen, and cavalry, I marched south, past Corinth, and met the Greeks' main army in the field. It was a bit hairy at first as their better-trained hoplites punished my pikemen, but then my longer line got in on the flanks, and the cavalry won the battles on the flanks, before turning and ramming the hoplites from behind.

So, after about five years of warfare, most of the Balkans was united under me. I'll just follow the fortunes of Gyras, the one who fought the Romans, as the other front isn't too interesting.

After kicking the Greeks out of Greece, my main field army had no one left to fight. I noticed a full-stack Brutii army near the border of Thermon, however, so I moved Gyras out there and kept an eye on them. They decided not to try my defenses, and made for Salona instead. However, a Roman fleet, perhaps under the commnad of an insane admiral, blockaded Thermon that winter! I brushed it aside with ease (Macedonia had been building a powerful navy, both to win control of the Aegean and to push across the Adriatic), and Gyras immediately pursued the Brutii northwards. I quickly stormed Apollonia, forcing the Roman force to turn around. In the first of 4 great field battles, the Romans were crushed against the wall of pikes and powerful cavarly.

As the war escalated, the Macedonian navy was able to clear a corridor across the Adriatic, sinking or driving out all enemy ships in the area. Gyras and another, less-well trained army were shuttled across. Tarentum and Croton both fell to brief sieges, the cream of the Brutiii military having perished across the sea.

Gyras marched north. The Scipii were waiting for him, with another full-stack army. In a confused fight in the middle of a forest just outside Capua, the blue-clad troops were eventually broken and annhiliated. Capua fell without a fight in the aftermath of this, the second of Gyras's 4 battles.

The two Macedonian armies did not wait, but pushed on to Rome itself. Gyras was attacked by the powerful Senate army there. As the Macedonians fought to hold the line, the second army appeared on the flank of the SPQR troops, and they were crushed between hammer and anvil. Gyras, now known as the conqueror, owned Rome.

The losses incurred in hese battles with the Romans had been heavy. In scarcely 5 years, the Crown Prince had destroyed 3 seperate Roman armies, scattered numerous small detachments, taken 5 towns, and killed dozens of Roman family members. Also, he was no longer the crown prince: The old king had died back in the capital city of Athens, leaving his eldest son, the war hero Gyras, to rule the empire.

Gyras would not be bound in a throne room, however. He stayed in Rome long enough to consolidate his rule, replenish his losses, and repair the city. Then he marched north again, towards the Julii, a family of Roman die-hards occupying most of Northern Italy.

The Julii, on the approach of the black-clad soldiers, hastily concluded their war with Gaul, and concentrated most of their troops into one great army to try to destroy the oncoming Macedonian one. The two sides were fairly evenly matched in numbers - Gyras's second army had been folded into his original, due to losses to combat and garrisons.

The two forces met in the plains below Arretium. A powerful Julii attack ploughed right into the Macedonian center, breaking up the phalanx, slaughtering pikemen by the dozens. On the flanks, the lethal lancers had engaged the ill-disciplined noblemen of the equites class, and would soon be able to help.

That might not be in time, however - the Macedonian center was bowing dangerously under the pressure. Gyras rode forth personally, charging towards the danger point, his bodyguard around him. The horsemen stopped the Romans cold, throwing them back in disorder. The pikemen rallied around the general's unit, reforming the line, while at last the cavalry won on the flnaks and closed in from behind. The Julii broke, and their army was destroyed.

However, Gyras the Conqueror, King of Macedonia, lay dead on the field. He had fallen in the inital moments of the charge into the fray, perhaps on a friendly spear, or perhaps to a lucky pila.

I stopped the campaign there, because it seemed like a good ending. Gyras won 5 major field battles against armies at least equal to his own, each one receiving the "famous battle" marker. He only ever won one against each faction - the Greeks, the Brutii, the Scipii, SPQR, and the Julii, but he only needed to win one. After that, resistance collapsed, usually.

I'm still not sure what killed him, though, when I charged him to stabilize my line at Arretium. Guess I was just unlucky that time.

[Rotc_Railey15]

Right now ive secured the Balkans by kicking the Brutii out. I captured Apollonia and the Brutii lost 4 family members at Apollonia!!! (One of them was the faction heir along with a 5 star general.) The Balkans is is secured and im starting to get money in.

The Dacians attacked but they are weak.

Right now, my greatest threat is Scythia. There armies are full of cavalry and they captured Campus Getae from me. I only have infantry and a few Cavalry. I dont think im prepared to fight them. Lack of missile troops and cavalry prevent me from going on the offensive. I pulled my northern army back onto a bridge to defend my settlement. (cant think of name.) Im going to recruit more cavalry and start getting some archers out there so i can fight back.

The Greek cities are building a new empire in Asia minor. I though pontus would destroy them but they are advancing rapidly against the easterners. My ally Seleciud empire is on the brink of defeat but they are holding out pretty well.

So thats my Macedon campaign right now. Ill build up my navy to attack the Romans and may send some armies into the Italian peninsula. But ill probably focus more to fighting the barbarians since they are the greatest threat right now to my empire. Scythians are tough troops. Their the only ones ive truly lost battles to. Ive also had some Phyrric victories against them.

[Caius]

I played as Macedonia once. I dont have much to say here, just that I kicked the Bruttians from Apollonia. But I am weak. I dont have how to be much stronger. Could you give me some tricks?

[GeneralHankerchief]

Kill the Greeks before you go for the Brutii. You'll get cash, command stars, and good recruiting centers. You won't have much of a problem because usually the Brutes focus on the eastern Adriatic coast before they push inland.

And so what if they get a little stronger while you're off beating up Athens and Sparta? That way it's more of a challenge. :yes:

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Agreed as to the fun of the challenge.

Economically, securing Rhodes, Pergamum, Halicarnassus, and Cyprus would be a big boon for you (Cyprus is optional if its still Eggy and you don't want a war there yet).

Delay against Scythia and/or force them to go after you in forts or across bridges.

Odd tactic I heard discussed once. Atack on square, not on the diagonal. Get 16 reg phalanx together. Form them into phalanxes of two ranks of 60 each. Put all 16 into a line stretching across the entire map (most of it at least). March forward to opposite side. All horses, pinned by the unbreakable red force field, will be pinned and chummed. Have 4 cavalry available to plug gaps or help against any infantry that's seemingly successful.

[Stuperman]

I've got recently re-started a macedonian campaign that was suposed to be a swap game with a buddy of mine, but it fell through.

On the first turn I took all the troops I had in corinth, plus all the merc's I could get, and attacked sparta befor there was walls. the huge generals BG and the Spartans are tough, but you should have missle superiority, which makes it a bit easier. That same turn I took all avaiable troops from Larissa and Thessalonica to attack thermon.

Once Thermon and Sparta were mine I managed get a ceasfire and trade rights with the greeks. I then worked on consolidating, taking Athens, byzantium, crete and cyrene. About this time, the Brutii attacked, which allowed me to broker an alliance with the greeks who were getting beaten badly by the Scippii. At the same time I was betrayed by the thracians, I eliminated them (they only held thier 2 starting provinces), keeping tylis for my self, and giving campus Getae to the Dacians for an alliance.

By this time I had an army of 6 phalanx pikemen(way better than levies), 4 archers, 2 samnite mercs(flanks of line) and various cav which has started the counter attack on rome, it has taken Apollonia and Tarentum, and defeated a HUGE scipii army (18 hastii, 1 princepes, 1 equites) in the northern part of the Tarentum province, and am trying to decide what to do. I'm thinking capua>croton>sicily or croton>capua>rome, it's hard to cover all of your fronts with just one army in italy. At the same time I have a 'regional defence force' (5 levy pikemen/3illyrian mercs) stationed at solona. the general is waiting for a newly built army (mostly the same as the first roman invasion army) heading up through Dalmatia targeting Segestica, and the Julii (by far the most powerful roman faction.

I also have a large missle based army slowly heading towards Siwa from Cyrene, I had to break a numidian seige cyrene to take it, and they won't accept peace. The only problem is that I'm not sure if I want to have a boarder with egypt like that, especailly with only one army in the area. I'll see if I can get some pics up.

[ixidor]

Speaking of cannon fodder . . . I was reading Adrian Goldsworthy's book "The Punic Wars" on the battle of Zama. Scipio had positioned his line with Hastatii in front followed by Principes, followed by Triarii. His laned columns allowed Hannibal's ellies to pass through. Hannibal placed all his lower grade infantry up front keeping his elite with him at the back of the line. Had the Roman cavalry force not returned to the field after chasing off the Carthaginian cavalry, Hannibal's cannon fodder troops might have worn down the Roman troops enough so that his elite force could carry the day. Some of his fodder troops rallied retreating through his lines. The Hastatii were definitely worn out. However, the Numidian cavalry returned to the field and hit Hannibal's elite troops in the rear. Interesting account. So, I guess the moral is - even ancient generals did what they thought they had to to win even if it meant sacrificing human lives.

The problem in zama was that hannibal, in my opinion, didn't adapt well to the fact that now he was the one in superiority in the infantry section by quite inferior in the cavalry section, his strength for over 18 years. Some say he tried to create a bait to take scipio's cavalry out of the battle. If he did it, he was not very smart, he had the prove in Cannae that cavalry can destroy the cavalry's army, chase the rooters and return when the infantry is about to lose. In zama he was beat in the same way he beat the romans in cannae... Yet, he did have something that may had give him the victory: his 80 war elephants. If i was hannibal, i would have used the war elephants together with his cavalry for a frontal attack. Scipios' cavalry couldn't prevent such and if he tried hannibal could have trapped his cavalry with his infantry in a dead trap. After make the break with the frontal charge, which he would surely do, his infantry would push over the breach and break the roman's will. To protect his flank he could have the same as alexander in gaugamela, left a reserve on the back to protec it and avance in a inverse semicircle to avoid flanking, but i believe that it wouldn't be necessary, with the frontal charge followed by infantry pressure, it was most probably that he could actually pass through the roman's ranks, thus appearing in rear of the enemy. Scipio could have only send his cavalry help in the roman's rear unless he wanted to lose the battle, and by this time the battle would be pretty much doomed, since the the inversed semicircle would turn in a true semicircle, with the infantry on flanks to march faster creating a double envelopment, whilke the reserves left behind, without the task of protecting hannibal's flank, could have push through the break in the lines. Well, but it's easy to talk after the battle is over, isn't it :sweatdrop:?

Anyway, macedonian: the tactic is quite simple, take athenas, then take both greek settlements. Use the diplomat to bribe any greek army around to weak them even more, and better then that, use the bribed greeks against, guess what, the greeks cities. After that it's better to get a temporary ceasefire, it will be very profitable to you, believe me. Also, protect Bylazora since this town will be target for both Dacia and Tracia VERY soon. Build 2 forts in the nort and east narrowed valeys close to the city (just lefting 1 unit of milita hoplites there is enough) will give you SEVERAL turns, believe me. Meanwhile get extra troops and mercenaries if you really need them, and bring some cavalry from tessalonica. Then i usually follow 2 routs: conquer rhodes and kydonia (I spend some times rebuilding my navy since the greeks will most probably destroy yours, that's why i cease fire meanwhile) and attacking brutti while there are no walls in Apollinia. After that it depends in which is your stance but, really, macedonia is easy to play. Why? You not only have one of the most profitable bases of all factions (money is rarely a problem) and a very good tech tree, you also have incredible troops to use and temples to power them up. You have great phalanx units and, on contrary of the greeks, you have very good cavalry to help in your flanks and with deadly charge. Even that light lancers are great, i mean, light fast moving cavalry with 16 charge bonus? Are you kidding me? Ah, and you can even get some nice archers. Your are regular ones have 7 missile attack, a normal attack, but with artemis' temples and armourer you can rise this number to 14, which basicly means pharaoh's bowmen at your command. So, with the proper focus in militar buldings in strategically cities, you can have an army full of very strong phalanxes, very strong heavy cavalry (and even a couple of very good light cavalry), plus very destructive and long range archers that will make your foes coming after you very quickly unless they want to be devasted before then even start the melee.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

...Well, but it's easy to talk after the battle is over, isn't it :sweatdrop:?

Only if you survived.

[silverhand]

is that anyone know why my macedonian diplomat never success make an alliance with thrace ? :dizzy2:

[Seamus Fermanagh]

is that anyone know why my macedonian diplomat never success make an alliance with thrace ? :dizzy2:

It's semi-scripted, particularly on some difficulty settings, that certain neighbors are always ready to go to war with you on the slightest pretext. The game's AI is always seeking a way to get you in a 3 front war when you have resources for two armies, a 4 front war when you have resources for 3 full stacks etc. The goal is to force you to do the heroic "Napoleon defeats 3 separate armiesin one campaign" thing to up the challenge factor.

Given the AI's tactical "prowess" it barely creates enough of a challenge as is.

SO....

take the trade rights, assume war starts w/ Thrace within 5 turns and plan accordingly.

[silverhand]

It's semi-scripted, particularly on some difficulty settings, that certain neighbors are always ready to go to war with you on the slightest pretext. The game's AI is always seeking a way to get you in a 3 front war when you have resources for two armies, a 4 front war when you have resources for 3 full stacks etc. The goal is to force you to do the heroic "Napoleon defeats 3 separate armiesin one campaign" thing to up the challenge factor.

Given the AI's tactical "prowess" it barely creates enough of a challenge as is.

SO....

take the trade rights, assume war starts w/ Thrace within 5 turns and plan accordingly.

thanks for the info Seamus Fermanagh

[Paradox]

I need help and I'm looking forward to playing as this faction, but where do I insert file directory the second poster posted?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I need help and I'm looking forward to playing as this faction, but where do I insert file directory the second poster posted?

You must edit the file he noted to read as he suggests (actually, I'd say leave the Senate as unplayable as it malfs up things quite a lot). This is why he suggests you save a backup copy of the file in another area of your hard drive (with a modified extension notation such as .bkp). That way if your editing of the base file hurts things, you can go back to square one simply by moving the backup back in place and changing the extension code.

[Paradox]

I've attempted to do that but the "imperial_campaign" file is empty...

It might be because I'm accessing it in another way (which I'm sure I'm doing since I'm searching for it).

[Monsieur Alphonse]

Go to the imperial campaign folder and edit the descr_strat.txt file. Cut and past Macedon to the playable section

[Paradox]

Yes, I know that's what I'm supposed to do, but I don't know where to access this file to begin with. I kept looking for it and ended up searching for it and using a setup wizard to locate it.

[Monsieur Alphonse]

Mine is in this folder: D:\Program Files\total War\data\world\maps\campaign\imperial_campaign. I have mine on my second hard disk (D:) in my own created folder total war. Go to your total war folder and than follow the path: data => world => maps => campaign => imperial campaign.

Good luck

If you are using Vista it is probable a little different

[Paradox]

Ah, I see.

Well, first, I am using Vista. I also forgot to mention that I have the Gold Edition, so I don't have more than one disc here. Help would be appreciated, thank you in advance.

[Stuperman]

in vista there should be a "show compatibility files", button like thing just below the address bar. I need to click it if I'm doing anyhitng in the save directory of M2TW for KotR

[mrdun]

Macedon is an easy faction to play with. arly on hold the line with pike levvies or w/e they are called with general and archers behind them and flank with cav (which sets macedon apart from Greece). Plus loads of money. Easy.

[Caius]

You make it sound easy, but it isn't. dealing with the Brutii is a problem.

[Paradox]

I've been seeing some people saying that a plague would always be occurring in your capital, it doesn't. I changed my capital and the plague never appeared, even after 30 turns...

[mrdun.]

It is hardcoded, it must happen. In Thessalonica. Anyone have anything to say on this matter?

[mrdun]

You make it sound easy, but it isn't. dealing with the Brutii is a problem.

The AI do not know how to make flanking moves which cannot be predicted like humans can. If you use your cav against theirs, I think Macedon's are better, that takes out a main threat to your battle line. then proced to flank them. the hastati/princeps will try to charge you head on, easy fodder for your pikes. I am no great shakes on the battlefield but this technique works for me.

[Quintus.JC]

Macedon is not an easy faction to play as. Surrounded by potential enemies. Its’ early units is far from promising. The Greeks and Romans will hit them early on and Thrace also presents a threat on the northern frontier. It really does take an experienced general to deal with all the threats early on and expand them into a successful force like they were half a century ago. I played the campaign on a hard/very hard level. The first few decades were hard but after a while things begin to look up.


Greek Cities
Greek cities present a danger down the south. Sparta is a major troop-producing city. Collect all your might and attack it. They may have stronger troops but you do out number them and by using your light lancers wisely (maximise their charge ability)
You should be able to win the battle easily. Don’t massacre or enslave their population, as there is no culture penalty. Move your capital from Thessalonica to Larissa, as it is right in the centre of all your cities. Pump all of your phalanx pikemen from Sparta from now on. They are the backbone of your army. Focus Thessalonica on producing high quality cavalry. Try to get them to large city as soon as possible so you could train Macedonia cavalry. Light lancers have terrible melee stats despite their high charge bonus while Greek cavalry is almost useless, at least us I value it. After some reorganisation you should attack Thermon. Try to get there before the Romans. After taking Thermon the Greeks will be out of the Balkans altogether. Immediately make peace with them. They should agree to ceasefire as they’re on the losing side plus you will spare the harassment by the Greek navy. Take Athens after this and you’ll have a solid economy. Anyway, with the Greeks gone comes an even bigger enemy………………..

The house of Brutii
The house of Brutii will normally take Apollonia on turn 1. They made alliance with me knowing they shall betray me later on. I was happy to ally with them as it bought me valuable time to deal with Greece. Brutii attacked Thermon will I was besieging Athens. I had 2 units of Phalanx Pikemen and 3 units of Militia hoplites. Enough to block every street if it shall be attacked. After 2 turns the Brutii attacked. Only to be beaten back because they can’t pass my Phalanx pikemen blocking the hole in the wall. My victorious forces return from Athens and besieged Apollonia. I battered through as quickly as possible knowing reinforcement could arrive from Italy by any minute. Phalanx troops naturally have an advantage in sieges. As soon as the walls are down my forces were in. Brutii forces landed 2 turns later in an effort to win back their land, after decisively defeating them the Brutii was crippled and did not attack me for 10 years. Just then another threat was rising in the north…………

Thrace
Thrace was left alone because I was busy dealing with the other more threatening factions, however, after conquering Byzantium they turned on me. Thessalonica was besieged. I had enough garrison to repel them if they attempted to capture the city. They did, their militia hoplite and falxmen were no match for my phalanx pikemen blocking every street. My faction heir later led a campaign in Thrace that ended ultimately in the destruction of Thrace. I retreated under the Danube and gave Campus Geatea as a present to the Scythians.

Now the Balkans was secured. Along came peace and prosperity. Sparta was specified as in producing Phalanx Pikemen in masses. In Athens came the archers and in Thessalonica was the training centre for Macedonian cavalry. My navy was preventing Brutii forces from landing in Greece. I kept my nose out of Asia. Knowing Rome was next to feel my force. At that stage my force was normally made of:

10 units of Phalanx Pikemen. These guys are impregnable to frontal assaults and could hold their line if not attacked from the flanks or rear.

3 units of Macedonia Cavalry, reliable cavalry with good melee status, these guys could give the decisive blow to any troop.

2 units of Light lancers, Useless in melee but has an amazing charge bonus, they are fast moving and could kill off enemy archers and charge at a few surprised infantry. If charged at the right movement, their charge could be devastating.

2 units of Archers, use them to soften the enemy and also weaken the enemy elite.

2 units of ballista, useful hitting densely packed enemy infantry and also could save you time when siege wooden walls.

1 General to inspired my troops to greater glory.

I then took Italy city by city. After that I made alliance with the Gauls and headed East into Anatolia and fought against the Egyptians who always seemed to be the strongest faction every time. The Macedonian Phalanx and Cavalry combo should be able to destroy anybody that stands in its way. Although I did have my own problems with the slow moving Phalanx, but with an strong cavalry watching it’s sides and back there never was any real problem.

[Quirinus]

I have a question about the Macedonian temple of Artemis-- at its highest tier it gives +5 to missle, but how does that work? Don't the troop improvements only go up till three (bronze, silver, gold)?

[Verrucosus]

I believe the +5 is not really a weapons upgrade, but a bonus that goes straight to the missile attack value that you can look up on the unit details scroll. Now that you mention it, I am not sure whether the scroll information is adjusted for the temple bonus or whether we have to calculate that in our heads.

[Quirinus]

Whoa. Cool beans. Does that mean that getting upgrades from a Blacksmith will still stack?

[mrdun]

Again, QJC, nice post.

[Quintus.JC]

under an exprinenced general, the Phalanx and Cavalry combo can beat anyone.

[Quirinus]

I think it depends. A more maneuverable army, like the Parthians or the Numidians. Rather early in the game, I got trounced by a Dacian army when my cavalry was engaged in assassinating their general, and the falxman flanked me. Shouldn't have happened normally, but I was overconfident from destroying a previous Dacian army. =P

[mrdun]

:rtwno: Ouch that sucks Quirinus. Any hellanic faction does not like barbarian units.

[Quirinus]

I believe the +5 is not really a weapons upgrade, but a bonus that goes straight to the missile attack value that you can look up on the unit details scroll. Now that you mention it, I am not sure whether the scroll information is adjusted for the temple bonus or whether we have to calculate that in our heads.
After playing more of Macedon, I think that the temple thing does improve your weapons directly-- a Large Temple of Artemis (+3) produces gold-sword Archers and Peltasts. I haven't gotten much further in the game yet (I've been playing the Greeks instead :laugh4: ) so I still have no idea what a +4 or +5 would entail.

Anyone knows the answer to this?

[Good Ship Chuckle]

:rtwno: Ouch that sucks Quirinus. Any hellanic faction does not like barbarian units.

I think you are mistaken. I find barbarian units to be exceptionally easy to take on, at least as easy as the roman armies. Once their infantry is pinned down by your pikes, they are as easy as anyone to flank. There is one exception thought. Scythia...In that case you are absolutely correct. Pikes find it just a little hard to out maneuver a horde of horse archers.
:charge:

[mrdun]

I think you will find I am NOT mistaken. Barbarian units such as falxmen are a lot quicker and can break up your formations and outmanouvre long pikes.

[Good Ship Chuckle]

True, true. Especially if the falxmen are being commanded by a human.
But your strategy of out maneuvering the pikes is not unique to only barbarian factions. Romans, Pontus, Egypt etc, are all effective against the pikes, if they use the pikes slowness to their advantage.

Let me clarify my original post. You are not mistaken in saying barbarians have an advantage over the hellenes. Once the pikes are out maneuvered, they're toast. But to say that advantage is unique to only barbarians, is incorrect.

[mrdun]

I'm sure other units can get under the Hellanics' skin aswell although I was just going on the barbarian's attacking values.

[Punicus]

Just so everyone knows, I didn't read many of the previous posts before posting this strategy, so if it seems like I'm just repeating a lot of stuff, sorry.

Hmm, Macedon doesn't seem too challenging, at least in the campaign I'm currently in. Right off the bat, Greece took an army off from Sparta to I'm guessing Syracuse (does this usually happen?), leaving the a small force inside. I quickly took advantage of this and rebel-controlled Athens. Light Lancers are pretty decent cavalry with that powerful charge, and I can't stress enough the value of low-tier hoplites in comparison to low-tier units of other factions.

The economic situation of this faction is beautiful. Athens is a money making powerhouse, it never fails. From here on what I plan to do is take all of Greece, then focus in on the Brutii. Once I've conquered them and the rest of those Romans, I should be so rich that the rest of the campaign will be easy pickings. The difficulty is H/H is anyone is wondering.

[Quintus.JC]

On my current Macedon campaign on H/H I’m also finding it really easy, despite having war with 4 factions (Brutii, Greece, Dacia, Thracians) and have only 1 ally. Is it just me or do Greek cultured factions have better family members with good traits more than any other faction. I took Sparta on turn 4 and rules Tylis, Crete, Athens, Byzantium plus all of my original cities. The money is flowing from all directions, despite having several full stack armies. The temple to Ares and Artemis really helped my troops a lot. I’ve been on the defensive a lot but now planning to hit the Greeks and Brutii on the counter. Thrace is no more a trouble after losing Tylis. I intend to leave them so they could be a buffer against Dacia and the Scythians. The Greeks have 2 full stack army parked outside of Thermon and the Brutii also have 2 stacks outside Apollia. They’re just staring at each other. I urged them to go to battle several times with my diplomat. They demanded cash in return and I did, but none of them is keeping their promises. I was hoping they would fight so I could take the cities when they have been weakened, but now decided to just take them anyway. Antigonus is still alive and well at 79. My faction hire has 9 stars in command and 8 in management. I’m planning to go into Italy soon with Royal Pikemen and Macedonian cavalry. It all looks pretty good so far.:2thumbsup:

[Punicus]

Interestingly enough, the Brutii decided to not show the Greeks any attention at Thermon despite the fact that they are extremely weak at the moment. They went directly for Thessalonica (sp?) but suffered a big defeat and at the moment have no troops on the peninsula. Thrace, however, decided it would be convenient to attack Bylazora at the same turn, but they shouldn't be any trouble (the army they are attacking with is quite small).

Usually a situation where I'm at war on a couple fronts would be scary (not literally) but since I'm getting so much money, I'm not worried about it. I'm constantly making new units and teching up so I shouldn't have any problems once I've taken a Thracian city and kicked the Brutii out of Greece.

[mrdun]

Just so everyone knows, I didn't read many of the previous posts before posting this strategy, so if it seems like I'm just repeating a lot of stuff, sorry.

Hmm, Macedon doesn't seem too challenging, at least in the campaign I'm currently in. Right off the bat, Greece took an army off from Sparta to I'm guessing Syracuse (does this usually happen?), leaving the a small force inside. I quickly took advantage of this and rebel-controlled Athens. Light Lancers are pretty decent cavalry with that powerful charge, and I can't stress enough the value of low-tier hoplites in comparison to low-tier units of other factions.

The economic situation of this faction is beautiful. Athens is a money making powerhouse, it never fails. From here on what I plan to do is take all of Greece, then focus in on the Brutii. Once I've conquered them and the rest of those Romans, I should be so rich that the rest of the campaign will be easy pickings. The difficulty is H/H is anyone is wondering.

Complete duplicate :laugh4:

[coalition]

hey tere guys, vh/vh and things being going pretty welll, took a break from medieval total war 2 but i prefer rome, alot more interesting. Theres 1 thing i do have to complain about the macedonians, arent the royal pikeman suppose to be hyspadist? or however you spell it lol.

[whtdoesitmatta]

Ok, I am trying to Defend Macedonia from all invaders after seeing Serverous do it Germania, but I am keep getting destroyed early.

Basically the rules for this are
-Give Byzalora to Dacians or Thrace depending on who wants to ally with you.
-Take Athens.
-Then hold and defend these 4 provinces for the rest of the game.
-I am not going to attack or capture any enemy outside of lands.
-Politically I will be good...no attacking unless I am at war with that faction.
-I can declare war via a diplomat if another faction steps foot onto my soil.

Basically what keeps happening is Greece and the Brutii ally,and Destroy me, as my pikeman cannot fight 1v1 vs either hastati or Hoplites.

Please help.

[Craterus]

Use the early Macedon cavalry (light lancers), your early pikemen should never be in an extended battle so you need to use anvil-hammer cavalry hit and run tactics.

Haven't played the game (or posted in the guides) for 2 years but hope this helps ~:)

[The Wandering Scholar]

Spam pikemen with very long spears and light lancers (Gyras is a good general early on) plus buy some archers.

[whtdoesitmatta]

Problems are:
What is Hammer and Anvil tactics?
Cretans spawn too slow.
And the Pikemen can't touch Armoured hoplites, and have a very hard time with hastati and Hoplites.

[The Wandering Scholar]

Hammer and Anvil tactics are when you tie up their infantry with yours and flank them, oldest trick in the book.

You can open up descr_mercs and increase spawn rates if you so wish. If i Was to do that I would increase the cost and upkeep, it wont seem so much of an exploit then.

Like my previous post said use very long spears, they cannot touch you. I beat a unit each of Spartans and Armoured hoplites on normal size with three levy pikemen:

use their 60 numbers and stretch them out, you can easily flank them then. Kind of like holding your nephew at arms length, not quite as easy as a little toddler.

[Paradox]

Hammer and Anvil tactics are when you tie up their infantry with yours and flank them, oldest trick in the book.

You can open up descr_mercs and increase spawn rates if you so wish. If i Was to do that I would increase the cost and upkeep, it wont seem so much of an exploit then.

Like my previous post said use very long spears, they cannot touch you. I beat a unit each of Spartans and Armoured hoplites on normal size with three levy pikemen:

use their 60 numbers and stretch them out, you can easily flank them then. Kind of like holding your nephew at arms length, not quite as easy as a little toddler.
How do you increase the spawn rate and modify the cost/upkeep?

[Hannibalbarc]

To increase the spawn rate go to descr_mercs and edit this,

unit merc cretan archers, exp 0 cost 750 replenish 0.05 - 0.08 max 1 initial 0

if you changed it to this,

unit merc cretan archers, exp 0 cost 750 replenish 0.1 - 0.15 max 2 initial 1

They would spawn much faster, of course you don't have to change the numbers exactly to what I changed them too but you get the idea.

[coalition]

:2thumbsup:
Use the early Macedon cavalry (light lancers), your early pikemen should never be in an extended battle so you need to use anvil-hammer cavalry hit and run tactics.

Haven't played the game (or posted in the guides) for 2 years but hope this helps ~:)
haha craterus ^_^ hows the cavarly commanding going? lost your touch? or you too busy playing medieval 2 :furious3:

[The Wandering Scholar]

Yh Craterus explain yourself you m2 splitter you!! :beam:

[RLucid]

The problem in zama was that hannibal, in my opinion, didn't adapt well to the fact that now he was the one in superiority in the infantry section by quite inferior in the cavalry section, his strength for over 18 years. Some say he tried to create a bait to take scipio's cavalry out of the battle. If he did it, he was not very smart, he had the prove in Cannae that cavalry can destroy the cavalry's army
Scipio was a great general and took every leaf out of Hannibals book. Due to curiosity by Hannibal (wanting to meet Scipio) he was able to choose the campsite and the ground; I think Hannibal probably wanted to assess Scipio's likely weaknesses (having used impetuosity against previous Roman Generals for example). Scipio made sure on day of battle, Hannibals men were weakened by hunger and thirst, having to wait long time having stood to early, whereas Scipio's troops were well prepared.

Then he had a plan, which worked, scaring off the Elephants, so most of them turned back on Carthaginian lines. Due to Javelins and noise, fleeing they disorganised the superior Carthaginian cavalry on the flanks, and Scipio pounced, managing to rout a superior Cavalry force because the horse were spooked, and in no condition to fight. Then the 1st line, was defeated, but to avoid disorganisation of inflexible phalanxes, they weren't admitting men back through. Those skirmishers, peltasts, archers, slingers attacked their own line desperately, in order to break back out of anger.

Big mess, bad job for Phalanxes, let Romans get in close and cut them up, where spears too unwieldy. 2nd line defeated, repeat, 3rd line won't let them through no gaps... big mess. 3rd line at disadvantage and then surrounded.

If you use Elephants, it's always going to backfire at some point, and Zama was Hannibal's day for a debacle.


On the advice given here. If you stick archers in front of your Phalanx, I wonder how they get out the way of oncoming troops. Playing with Romans and having Velites out front, I found using the Quincunx was essential to give them lanes of escape, and gain maneuver space, for 2nd/3rd line to counter attack, hitting the right spots with the right unit matchups.

Perhaps having some Falxmen near archers with a Phalanx in reserve, able to move forward, can allow some pores in the Phalanx line. You wouldn't need to be aggressive with those troops, just have them guarding, any attempts to attack flanks of Pikemen. These reserve troops, would be handy in exploiting any success achieved by the pikemen and be faster at following up.

[Randal]

Just a note or two... Scipio's cavalry at Zama was superior to Hannibal's, and more numerous as well, thanks to the defection of Massinissa and his Numidians.

Also, in the infantry battles it was a close thing when the exhausted Roman lines engaged Hannibal's veterans in the third Carthaginian line... had the Numidians returned a bit later Hannibal might well have won, albeit just and in a slogging match far less elegant than his famous victories.

[LedZeppelin87]

The Macedonians are one of the minor factions, so they are not unlocked when you win the game as one of the Roman factions. However, they are perfectly playable and it is simple to edit the game to unlock them.

Go to the following directory:

C:\Program Files\Activision\Rome - Total War\Data\world\maps\campaign\imperial_campaign

Open up the text file entitled descr_strat

At the beginning of the file, it lists which factions are unlocked, which factions can be unlocked and which factions cannot be unlocked. Change this section so it looks like the following:

campaign imperial_campaign
playable
romans_julii
romans_brutii
romans_scipii
egypt
seleucid
carthage
parthia
gauls
germans
greek_cities
romans_senate
macedon
pontus
armenia
dacia
scythia
spain
thrace
numidia
britons
end
unlockable

end
nonplayable

slave
end

It is a good idea to back up this text file before you edit it in case you make a mistake. When you have edited and saved it, load up the game and start a new campaign. All 16 factions will be playable, but you might experience some peculiar side effects if you lead the senate. I owe a beer to the person who figured the above out.


How do I save the changes? Say's I do not have permission. How do I get around it?

[Quintus.JC]

Shouldn't happen normally, try asking in the Apothecary (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=15) for answer. :yes:

[Seamus Fermanagh]

How do I save the changes? Say's I do not have permission. How do I get around it?

I think you have to edit it in notepad and paste it back in...not sure.

[Monsieur Alphonse]

Right click on the file descr_strat, go to properties and uncheck read only.

[mido_cyber_boy]

Macedon is one of my favourites. They are even better than Greeks because:
1. They get the pikemen with much longer spears than those of the spears,
2. Intially you are much more in advantage and can get rich quickly...

Playing battles as macedonians, I always win them even when the odds are against me... The most effective tactic I found useful while facing large armies is forming your phalnaxes in a octagons or hexagons (because huge armies can engulf you) and leaving your missiles and general in the centre... If you have any cavalry, I keep them away from battle, only using them to rout missile and mop down routing enemies... Congrats Heroic Victory :laugh4:

[IceWolf]

They don't have anyone to use on walls though. Which gets to be a problem in late game when you're on the Italian penneinsula or in the lower part of the Greek penninsula for that matter.

Icewolf

[Quintus.JC]

Macedon is one of my favourites. They are even better than Greeks because:
1. They get the pikemen with much longer spears than those of the spears,
2. Intially you are much more in advantage and can get rich quickly...

Playing battles as macedonians, I always win them even when the odds are against me... The most effective tactic I found useful while facing large armies is forming your phalnaxes in a octagons or hexagons (because huge armies can engulf you) and leaving your missiles and general in the centre... If you have any cavalry, I keep them away from battle, only using them to rout missile and mop down routing enemies... Congrats Heroic Victory :laugh4:

Actually the biggest advantage the Macedonians have over the Greeks is probably their superior cavalry. Also the Greeks start in a better position to get rich than the Macedonians, though both will probably get rich anyway, providing they stay out of trouble with their neighbours.

[Verjigorm]

After playing more of Macedon, I think that the temple thing does improve your weapons directly-- a Large Temple of Artemis (+3) produces gold-sword Archers and Peltasts. I haven't gotten much further in the game yet (I've been playing the Greeks instead :laugh4: ) so I still have no idea what a +4 or +5 would entail.

Anyone knows the answer to this?

I've got a Greece game going right now, and I have a temple of Artemis in Larissa for +2 to Missile attacks, and my archers are comnin' out with Missile 11(7 base +2 from Armorer, +2 from Artemis, right?). They stil don't really do anything impressive, but I'm waging war against the Egyptians, so whatta ya expect?

[gollum]

The Greeks have no advantages over the Macedonians in term of position, as they get blitzed out of existence in Greece proper in the first 3-4 turns. After that the Macedonian player should do well to throw the Brutii in the sea, then taking a small hiatus in calming the obnoxius Thracians by taking Tyflis and Byzantium, before proceeding across the Adriatic to batter the Brutii, then the Senate and then the Julii and Scipii in Northern Italy and Sicily respectively. As these developments take place the Macedonian player can also land in Asia Minor to give a good beating to Pontus, and get the ludicrus and wonderful cities on the coast, including Rhodos that provides a Colossal trade bonus. After that, his main worry would be probably a long attritional war against Egypt, which he will win to some cost, depending on his skill.

Overall, Macedon's central position along the most trade rich routes is key.

[Tsar Alexsandr]

Macedon is a great faction. Your starting position is good. Your lands can become very wealthy. Your pikemen make a great phalanx. Used properly, you can even defeat the mighty Spartan's with your pikemen. You also get some great Hellenic cavalry! Macedon's Light Lancers are good light cavalry, and the Macedonian Cavalry are a well balanced cavalry unit that will serve you well throughout the game. Macedon can also recruit Ballista which I find useful for taking down large masses of troops. Notably, masses of Roman legionaries.

What you need to do is build up your armies, and your cities. War will come from every direction, and you need to take your early steps preparing for it. Your goal for the short campaign is to destroy or outlast the Greek Cities, and Thrace. So you know these guys will cause you trouble. The Brutii also have plans on your land. Make sure to expel them as soon as possible! You will be told the odds are against you in your battles against Rome. But you'd better believe you will have war with Rome.The Brutii are relentless, and the Jullii may settle in lands near your northern border. They too might come after you in your lands.

Your first priority should be the Greek States though. Once Sparta and Thermon are yours, then you've just about united Greece and Macedon under one Hellenic leader. The Brutii arrive soon. A few turns into the game, and I opt to go for them before I deal with Thrace. Thrace can be dealt with quick enough though. Make sure Byzalora can defend itself from the Thracians. If you can reinforce it from Thesolonika than that's a bonus.

[Pedro_Ortiz]

Macedonia is Greece.

[ReluctantSamurai]

Well.......yeah. But they are not the Greek Cities:inquisitive:

Different rosters, different temples, and a vastly different starting position.

[Tsar Alexsandr]

As we all know, the Greek's spent a lot of time divided.... So, yes, Macedonians are Greek's, but they live in the northern part of the country. Not a huge difference. The Greek Cities faction represents the league of Greek city states. However, Macedon was unified and under one Macedonian ruler. So they were like a Monarchy I believe. They're a continuation of the Antoginid dynasty of one of Alexander the Great's general's Antigonus the Cyclops. (Or one-eyed alternatively.) So they're a major successor power like the Selucids of general Selecus and the Egyptian dynasty of general Ptolemy.

They have Sarissa pikes that are much longer than the Greek Cities Hoplite's spears. And though their defensive statistics are lower, the longer range and larger unit sizes of pikes generally ensures victory over an opponent using Hoplites. Macedon also get's good cavalry. Like the light lancers, Greek cavalry, and Macedonian cavalry. As well as the heavy Companion cavalry. Light lancers are quick, light, and they hit hard. They're also very low on defense. So there's a learning curve to get used to them. But they are very good if you can use them properly. And if you prefer, it's not too hard to get slightly heavier Greek cavalry. Also a good light cavalry unit. One that I'd often use for it's higher defense. Typically in a medium cavalry role. Macedonian cavalry are great as lancers. They're also the heaviest cavalry you get, aside from Companion cavalry. They have a good charge, good stamina, and good morale. They're also not to hard to get. Companion cavalry are your last line of heavy cavalry, and are superior to many other faction's highest tier cavalry. They are however, quite pricey, and require the highest stables building you get to create. This gives Macedon long reaching pikes, and good cavalry to protect the flanks. Making your army a force to be reckoned with for sure!

[Myth]

One thing i have to disagree is the Pikes vs Hoplites argument. Armoured Hoplites and Spartan Hoplites both walk right trough those Sarissas and steamroll the Macedonian Phalanx (in-game at least). Same for any post-Marian Roman legions. But yes, Macedon's trump card over the Greeks is their superb Cavalry. While they are no Armenia or Seleucia, the Companions are deadly in the hands of a Human player.

[Tsar Alexsandr]

The Sarissas pike is another thing that may require a human's direction. In my battles, I typically out-number hoplites for one, enveloping them, and flanking can remove the problem of the hoplite's higher defensive statistics. Hitting a hoplite from two sides is enough to defeat any hoplite. Including the mighty Spartan. I rarely lose more than a few pikemen.

They pikes are slow though. And awkward. But they help you control the flow of battle. If the enemy won't engage with them fine. But that means that won't get to your missile troops either. If the pike's are the body of the army though... the cavalry is it's arms.

Roman armies can be hard to fight with pikes. As pikemen in phalanx are the antithesis of the agile Roman Legionnaire. But remember, your pikemen can run! And they're usually good at storing their energy. Run to close distances and re-engage into phalanx. And thing that tries to fight that will suffer heavy losses.

But as always, remember the cavalry. They are the most important part of your army.

[Myth]

It's not a matter of agility or even the pila. Urban Cohorts just charge rigth at the MCD phalanx and smash them to bits. Yes outnumbering and outmaneuvering the AI is what does the trick, that's why faction slike Thrace can beat the Brutii when in the hands of a Human. But check this battle out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snzaGHD6NUE

[Tsar Alexsandr]

I've watched this actually. I forgot he said the Hoplites are tougher. And they are defense wise. But, I'm still convinced pikes can be better. It's all about mixed units tactics. Longer ranged spears, supported by peltasts and archers can easily dominate a hoplite heavy army. Especially when using the cavalry. Cavalry can destroy the superior hoplite's defensive capabilities by ruining their morale.

This of course requires more money, but not quite. Keeping in mind Macedon's wider array of troops to recruit from, Macedon will always have more tactical flexibility. And if those are used right, then Macedon will win. Macedon and the Greek city states share the Greek Cavalry, and the standard peltasts and archers. (Greek City states also get's a heavy peltast)

Battle's in campaign and online with set money limits are two different things entirely though. The Greek City states does have superior infantry, in some respects, but Macedon has better cavalry. I'll always favor cavalry, myself.

Under the right condition's pikes out-perform hoplites though. And they're also good for mustering large masses of professional soldiers.

[ReluctantSamurai]

One of the things I always do with Macedon's pikemen is to form them into 5 lines instead of the mass they are in default. This gives a wraparound effect when fighting the smaller GC hoplites. I've never conducted 1v1 experiments with pikemen vs hoplites, so I couldn't say who would hold up better in a standup fight. I'm sure someone has, so maybe a hunt for an older topic concerning this is warranted:shrug:

[Tsar Alexsandr]

I do the same thing ReluctantSamurai. And it tends to work rather well for me. They tend to out-number and out-range the hoplites. Who take heavy casualties before they even engage. But I've never tried it one-on-one in a test. So I can't really say if they're better. Not conclusively anyhow.

They seem better to me, but that might be because of other factors I have going in a battle. Either way they're a dependable unit for any player who has started a game as Macedon.

I think rows of five men deep is historical as well. Which is why I started doing it honestly. But I have noticed it helps the units envelop the enemy.

In the video Myth posted a link to the Hoplites under Prince of Macedon dominate the Royal Pikemen. But we don't know if the opponent maximized the usable space he could have created with his pikes. Also, both players have other troops, so it's not purely a hoplite.vs.pikemen battle. And if it was that would be very boring lol.

Pikes definitely lack the agility of some units, but they offer the ability of denying large areas of the battlefield of being of use to any enemy.

[Myth]

Lategame campaign is equal to unlimited money in MP. Which means 19 units of Spartans and 1 general. Guess who wins? :) Spartan spam is a banned tactic in MP for a reason (even though i don't play MP i know this). Sure hammer and anvil is nice, cav is nice, mobility is nice, chasing down fleeing opponnents is nice. But I'm just saying, 19 units of Spartans will steamroll anything Macedon can throw at them, especially if they waste troop slots on skirmishers/archers. The ideal stack to battle spartan spam is 10 Royal Pikes + 9 Companion cav and 1 general (in SP). But if those Spartans turn around as you attempt to flank them.. Bye bye cavalry!

[Tsar Alexsandr]

I've done some tests. And Hoplites certainly win against some pike units. But the lower end one's do not. It depends on the pikes and the Hoplites in question really. That being said... I've modded hoplites into my Macedonian game. Heh. XD

[Tsar Alexsandr]

I've done more tests! And have some interesting data to report on. First of all I chose Macedon for my pike unit, Royal Pikemen. By far the best pike unit in the game. Better than the Seleucids Silver shields, and the Pontic Bronze shields. Their attack and defense are higher, so I thought the Royal Pikemen are the pike using world's best bet. For the Hoplites, I chose the Armored Hoplites. The Spartan Hoplites are a bit overkill I thought for the test. More on that latter.

First test, Greek Armored Hoplites vs. Royal Pikemen.

Battleground: Grassy Flatlands.

I commanded the Macedonian Royal Pikemen. I ordered my men to advance and meet with the Hoplites. The longer pikes of my pikemen met with the enemy first and instantly started racking up kills. The status of my pikemen was "Victory seems certain." After a while of protracted hand to hand though, the Hoplites started to fight back hard. My pikemen were taking losses, and our statuses switched places. I ordered them to halt, so they could reform a phalanx. I re-established some control over the battle, but I wasn't happy. I ordered my pikemen to fall back and re-establish a phalanx. This time, I had changed the battle around again. My men were winning and the hoplites were dwindling. In the end, I was left with about 60 pikemen, and there were only about 8 hoplites left.


This battle went to the pikemen. But I have to say, it required a lot of micro-management. Left to battle in hand to hand, the pikemen may lose. I recommend you keep checking on the pikemen's status. And if you can, reforming and counterattacking may be your best option.

Now the Macedonian pike is a good pike unit. Nearly similar to a Hoplite unit in attack and defense. (But far more numerous.) So I had to try another pike unit. Since all of the other top end pikes are pretty identical, I chose the Seleucid Silver Shield Pikemen. I fought the Armored Hoplites again. To be consistent of course.

Same battlefield. Different results.

My pikemen started to dwindle immediately. The rate at which I was losing men was alarming. I wanted to re-form and counter attack, but this didn't help either. I stretched my battle line out to try and envelop my foe, desperately trying to seize some advantage. To no avail. My men continued to fall, and the hoplites were almost unscathed. The few I did kill, I attribute to the first moments of the closing formations. My longer pikes did take some early kills, but as it drug on, this battle clearly went to the Greeks.

Lastly, I tested Macedonian Royal Pikemen against Carthage's Sacred Band. Sacred Band is moderately better than the Greek Armored Hoplites. This went almost just like the Seleucid vs Armored Hoplite battle. My men were falling fast. This time when I tried to re-form, my men turned and fled. This didn't work out good....

So the lesson is, Royal Pikemen are very good. But very good hoplites will beat them. So, for the Macedonian player. Bring cavalry. Alexander the Great knew Macedon's strength was it's cavalry. And remember, it's most important that you have fun. :D

[Bellicin]

Nice testing there, thanks for sharing!

Having just started an imperial campaign as Macedonia (H/H) myself I've discovered two things about pikemen. Firstly the Levy pikemen will usually beat militia hoplites if they both just clash front to front in phalanx formation. Presumably it's the combination of longer spears and larger units that does the trick, but I'm not sure. Secondly I'm fairly certain you can impale your other troops with your phalanxes, so be careful when maneuvering them around. One of my favourite tactics is surrounding incoming hoplites with three units of pikemen in a triangle, and it would appear that if I put them too close to each other they start killing off each other as well as the hoplites. Which I suppose is realistic as we're talking about relatively untrained men with long spears!

Also the spartan hoplites are ridiculously overpowered and I'm grateful not having to face them too often in the imperial campaign. Surrounding them with 600+ levy pikemen, militia and mercenary hoplites in phalanx formation and pounding them with archers and peltasts they still managed to not only stay alive for ages but also kill off half of my troops in the process. The final humilation was when my faction heir and his 40+ strong, three chevrons strong bodyguards charged the last remaining spartan and losing 20 men in the process...

Kind regards

Bellicin

[Tsar Alexsandr]

Nice testing there, thanks for sharing!

Having just started an imperial campaign as Macedonia (H/H) myself I've discovered two things about pikemen. Firstly the Levy pikemen will usually beat militia hoplites if they both just clash front to front in phalanx formation. Presumably it's the combination of longer spears and larger units that does the trick, but I'm not sure. Secondly I'm fairly certain you can impale your other troops with your phalanxes, so be careful when maneuvering them around. One of my favourite tactics is surrounding incoming hoplites with three units of pikemen in a triangle, and it would appear that if I put them too close to each other they start killing off each other as well as the hoplites. Which I suppose is realistic as we're talking about relatively untrained men with long spears!

Also the spartan hoplites are ridiculously overpowered and I'm grateful not having to face them too often in the imperial campaign. Surrounding them with 600+ levy pikemen, militia and mercenary hoplites in phalanx formation and pounding them with archers and peltasts they still managed to not only stay alive for ages but also kill off half of my troops in the process. The final humilation was when my faction heir and his 40+ strong, three chevrons strong bodyguards charged the last remaining spartan and losing 20 men in the process...

Kind regards

Bellicin

Hmm. I've had similar experiences with Spartans. But they die pretty quick if you surround them from all sides.

My faction heir did nearly get himself killed once though.

Yeah that sounds like the same conclusion I've come too. :D The longer pikes seem to fare very well. At least in a supported phalanx. It also depends on what units are involved. Militia Hoplites and Levy Pikemen are pretty close.

I'm not sure about pikes killing your own units. I've had cav run through them before and come out okay. (I like to have Phalanx troops get out of phalanx to let my men through. But sometimes I don't have time.) I suppose it pays to take caution though. And it would be realistic for sure.

Have fun as Macedon friend. :D

[Guyus Germanicus]

I'm not sure about pikes killing your own units. I've had cav run through them before and come out okay. (I like to have Phalanx troops get out of phalanx to let my men through. But sometimes I don't have time.) I suppose it pays to take caution though. And it would be realistic for sure.



Your heavy cavalry are vulnerable to your own phalanx when charging thru them from either direction. I found this out the hard way, but have also noticed it when playing against factions with phalanx troops in battles in the town square. Typically in town square fights, the enemy general will hang back and let his remaining phalanx start it's approach toward your infantry. Then the AI will have the enemy general charge you, but the general charges thru his own phalanx troops from behind. Several of the general's heavy cavalry body guard get killed and sometimes even the general dies in the charge before they even make it to my troops.

I learned about the vulnerability of Macedonian cavalry the hard way, though. I was winning a battle against an enemy force and sent my heavy cavalry, which was lined up in formation behind my phalanx troops, in pursuit. I didn't set my phalanx to standard formation before sending the Macedonians off in pursuit and, sure enough, there was a general slaughter of my prime cavalry as they attacked thru my phalanx even though they were simply passing thru from behind. I was surprised because I never had that problem with Light lancers or Greek cavalry, and usually didn't have it happen with my own generals. But with the heavy cavalry, yes. Why? I have no idea. I can't even think of a good reason why heavy cavalry should be so vulnerable passing through friendly pikes from behind.

[Tsar Alexsandr]

Hmm. Well I'll take your word for it. Yeah, I haven't seen it happen to Light Lancers, or Greek Cavalry, but haven't really experienced it with my heavy cavalry. As a rule, I treat my pikes as an obstacle to keep my own men away from as well. They really slow down movement if they're not standing in standard formation.

It would make sense that they could. They're just like a more mobile set of stakes like the longbowmen deploy in M2TW. So I avoid them anyhow, odd that it only effect the heavy cavalry though.

[Guyus Germanicus]

Hmm. Well I'll take your word for it. Yeah, I haven't seen it happen to Light Lancers, or Greek Cavalry, but haven't really experienced it with my heavy cavalry. As a rule, I treat my pikes as an obstacle to keep my own men away from as well. They really slow down movement if they're not standing in standard formation.



I tried setting up some custom battles to test different circumstances with cavalry charging thru friendly pikes from behind. My results were inconsistent. In two different tests using Macedonain phalanx pikemen I sent two different cavalry unit types thru the infantry formation from behind charging at some enemy troops. In the first test I charged the enemy while they were a bit distant from my formation. In that particular case I suffered no cavalry losses with either heavy cavalry or light lancers when they passed thru my infantry line. But when I let the enemy close with my line (but not yet making contact with it) I lost almost 2/3 of my Macedonian cavalry charging thru my pikemen before they even made contact with the enemy units. The light lancers suffered a few casualties doing the same thing but not nearly as many.

In another test I tried charging Sacred band cav and round shields thru a line of Carthaginian Sacred band infantry from behind. The Sacred band heavy cavalry got thru without a problem, but the round shields suffered several losses. So in that case, it was my light cavalry that suffered and not the heavy cavalry. Tis a puzzlement. :inquisitive:

So, bottomline, I don't know what to conclude in all this as far as some rule - other than what you yourself suggested in your last post. Simply put, it's a good policy to not charge thru your own pike infantry from behind unless your infantry is in standard formation, because the results are unpredictable.

I shall experiment some more with this. :charge:

[ReluctantSamurai]

I'm not sure it would help, but perhaps having your spears/pikes go to loose formation before the cavalry passes through, and then closing ranks after, might help. I use this technique all the time in STW for baiting enemy cavalry chasing my CA's (obviously this is passing front-to-rear through the spears), and to catch an enemy cav unit with my YC, trying to flank, exposing their flank (passing rear-to-front through the spears),...obviously not the same game, but still................

You would probably want some free space in front of your infantry, as you wouldn't want them to be engaged while reforming.......

[Tsar Alexsandr]

Sounds like a good idea Reluctant Samurai. :D

Merely switching the formation from phalanx to turning it off, having them enter standard, suffices though. The men will let the horses through that way. (They have little choice... XD)

[ReluctantSamurai]

Merely switching the formation from phalanx to turning it off, having them enter standard, suffices though.

True enough. However, the cavalry will move much faster and retain their formation better if the infantry unit they pass through gives them more space. Doesn't relate to the lost horsemen problem, but a thought, nonetheless..........

[Tsar Alexsandr]

Yeah, that will get the cavalry through the men quicker for sure.

[Guyus Germanicus]

I'm not sure it would help, but perhaps having your spears/pikes go to loose formation before the cavalry passes through, and then closing ranks after, might help.

That is what I normally do. I was just conducting some controlled tests using the Custom Battle feature of RTW to see what would happen to different types of cavalry units when I don't do that just to see what happens to the cavalry. Typically I will not charge my cavalry thru the rear of my own phalanx infantry line while they are engaging an enemy unit unless it's a moment of desperation i.e., my infantry are threatened by an enemy cavalry unit that has attacked it's flank, or the enemy general is engaging my phalanx'd unit.

So far, it seems RTW shows no particular pattern in my test results. My conclusion being - if you make the mistake of charging your cavalry thru your phalanx from behind without first setting them up in standard formation you should expect some casualties.

Time and again, in real games where I'm closing on the town square inside a city, and the enemy charges cavalry thru their own phalanx units, their cavalry suffers numerous self-inflicted casualties.

[Tsar Alexsandr]

Wow. Running through the pikes seems like it'd be safer than running through them. I actually had men run right through my phalanx, head on. Dumb I know, but nobody got killed I don't think. : /

A glitch perhaps? It should certainly kill their own cav. (Though I was glad it didn't.)

[ReluctantSamurai]

Well, you can watch elephants and chariots run over other units without any apparent casualties....at least the AI can do this, so getting cavalry KIA by running through pikes/spears would have to be something to do specifically with spear units:shrug:

And as an off-topic aside....I just have to LMAO when I see soldiers get up after being struck with onager fire-bombs. Say wha?..................:stars:

And Happy B-Day TA~:cheers:

[Tsar Alexsandr]

The AI isn't alone in seeing those casualties heal. I've seen men get right back up after getting struck or crushed by my elephants and chariots as the Seleucids. As well as other elephant-chariot possessing factions.

Ha ha. :D Yeah. Nothing like a guy getting back up after that. I think it's funny whenever my men hit a Centurion or Captian and the guy hops back up. I've even seen more normal troops do that. Um... what? XD It just doesn't make a lot of sense. A hit from an onager should certainly kill. I remember one time, incinerating and entire generals bodyguard and general in one nice salvo. Made a nice general's death video.....

Thank you! Yeah, it's been pretty good so far.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Sarissas all had a butt spike. I think the game recognizes that by making them surprisingly lethal from the rear. However, I also suspect it is tied in with the graphics -- spear held level forward etc.

[Guyus Germanicus]

Sarissas all had a butt spike. I think the game recognizes that by making them surprisingly lethal from the rear. However, I also suspect it is tied in with the graphics -- spear held level forward etc.

Ahh yes!! Good thinking Master Moderator. That would make sense.

Long time no see, Seamus. Good to hear from you once again. Hope you are well.