View Full Version : Facing cavalry charge - charge OR stay?
Hello: ~:)
I remember in the tutorial campaign, we were hinted to "chrage" our triariri towards the charging enemy cavalries. However, another battlefield hint says we better "hold" the spearmen when facing an enemy charge.
So I wonder, which way is more effective for infantries defending against the cavalry - hold the lines, or charge face to face? :bow: (for example, with hastati, triariri, etc.)
Morindin
10-04-2004, 21:34
I always counter-charge cavalry, might not make sense in MTW but usually seems to work in RTW.
Spearmen such as Triarii always seem to have much more success if they surround the cavalry, so, countercharging usually works for me.
Hehe... I always hold them and let them take the charge standing still, because this makes them less able to pull back and charge again. The horses leap over my formation and get mired in my spearmen, so the unit is "stuck" there until they either get out our get killed.
I can definitely see Morindin's point though... 'tis a tough call.
I remember in STW there used to be a "hold" command for the spearmen. I didn't see it in RTW, though. So if I choose to "stay calm", I really don't have to give any command? ~D
Big King Sanctaphrax
10-04-2004, 21:54
You might want to try putting them on Guard, if you intend to take the charge.
In MTW, a developer said it was better to stay but I never felt that was correct.
Spears get a pretty hefty charge bonus (+7 for triari in RTW), so I would say charge to try to kill some of them quickly. This may be particularly profitable against early cavalry with a low defence (or where the attack factor is exagerated, e.g. by attacking downhill). I confess I don't yet have experience of phalanxes so I am not sure this applies to them. However, under Alexander the Greek, Macedonian pikemen also used to charge into combat (as, I believe, did the medieval Swiss).
With my hastati, I used to alt-double click to charge but their charge bonus is rather low (+2) so now I tend to leave them on fire at will and stay unless really rushed. They don't reliably get off their pila before they are hit, but even if hit, the rear ranks may still fire some off. And with a decent front of several units, you may be able to maul one or two attacking cav.
Morindin
10-04-2004, 22:11
Hehe... I always hold them and let them take the charge standing still, because this makes them less able to pull back and charge again. The horses leap over my formation and get mired in my spearmen, so the unit is "stuck" there until they either get out our get killed.
I can definitely see Morindin's point though... 'tis a tough call.
Fighting cavalry I have a double wall of infantry, spears to the front, legionares/whatever just behind, so the cav that breaks through my spear charge runs out of momentum and usually mauled by my infantry.
Colovion
10-04-2004, 22:55
whatever you do just make sure your formation is deep and on gaurd mode, it makes for a much mroe cohesive unit which is mroe difficult to break out of formation
Morindin
10-04-2004, 23:02
whatever you do just make sure your formation is deep and on gaurd mode, it makes for a much mroe cohesive unit which is mroe difficult to break out of formation
Again unlike MTW, I never have deep formations unless they're hoplite units. 3 deep spears backed up by 2 deep infantry.
From my experiances spearmen in RTW dont act like spearmen in MTW, and so they shouldnt.
Breaking out of formation is often a good thing in RTW, because otherwise you end up with 2/3's of your unit milling around at the back of a fight not doing anything.
When facing a cavalry charge you're going to lose men wether your formation is deep or not, so its best to surround and kill the cavalry as quickly as possible before it can get away and charge you again.
The only time when I'd deepen my formation is when facing chariots, id definately NOT recommend a deep formation against Elephants.
Del Arroyo
10-04-2004, 23:10
Sounds like the system is completely broken, at least from a historical/realism perspective.
I stand still usually as it kills the charge much quicker, as if you charge them you are lossening up your formation and the cavalry charge adds to this and thus may allow their charge to keep its momentum.
The wargame aspect of the game is broken in tactical regards. The strategic map is much better, but well.
The battles are dumbed down - MTW had some issues, but in RTW spearman are nothing Cavalry must fear, they completely dominate.
Mr. Juice
10-05-2004, 08:46
...in RTW spearman are nothing Cavalry must fear, they completely dominate. Indeed. I avoided spearmen at all costs with my cavalry until I had to charge some Auxilia out of desperation with either Roman or Legionary Cavalry. They just steamrolled into them like it was no different from any other unit.
:no:
Indeed. I avoided spearmen at all costs with my cavalry until I had to charge some Auxilia out of desperation with either Roman or Legionary Cavalry. They just steamrolled into them like it was no different from any other unit.
:no:
Was the A.I. moving that unit or was it embraced for the shock? If it was standing still then I do'nt see how it won unless they had morale penalties that got them to route.
Now I'm guessing the cavarly charge was a frontal assault? because if it was a charge in the rear then the cavalry should have won or at least wreak havoc until they could turn around
hotingzilla
10-05-2004, 13:30
In MTW, spearman had a weak attack and charging the lines will just make them lose the rank bonus plus are unable to negate the enemy charge.
They will take more casualities.
In MTW, spearman had a weak attack and charging the lines will just make them lose the rank bonus plus are unable to negate the enemy charge.
They will take more casualities.
Not sure about this. Yes, you would not get the rank bonus initially, so will have a lower defence (a difference of 2 points?) and intially will take more casualties. But I am pretty sure you will still negate the cavalry charge bonus all the same - if you mod the text files, I think it is a hard coded property of having a weapon coded as a spear whereas the rank bonus can be altered directly. The positive is that you get your own charge bonus (a difference of 5 points) and so may take a few of the enemy down. The maths would seem to favour the spears charging (+5 attack seems better than +2 defence), unless you have no hope of killing the knights anyway. If you are right about being unable to negate the charge bonus, then the maths would definitely favour standing.
I saw the benefits of charging spears most dramatically when I charged a defensive unit of feudal sergeants down a steep hill into some royal knights charging uphill. The entire first line of the knights seemed to instaneously fall and the unit was overrun within seconds. It was beautiful.
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