View Full Version : What to do with old troops in Post-Marian?
I finally reached the Marian Reforms in about 235BC. (I agree with the others, WAY too early... I didn't even get to produce a single Triarii unit!) I've got HUGE armies marching around in various places. As far as I can tell, there is no way to upgrade the obsolete Hastati and Principes to their respective level of cohort (which does not make sense btw). So... what is the best thing to do with these guys? Disband them? Pile them up for an invasion of Briton? What did the rest of you do with your obsolete pre-Marian units?
Bob the Insane
10-05-2004, 14:36
It may seem odd to disband them but think of it this way...
If you disband them in City A they will be added to the population of city A and then raise a unit of Legionary troops in that same city the population will be deducted again... So you are not really lossing any people when you do this!
You notice that you lose the ability to even retrain the pre-marian units after the reforms so you can not replace losses in an out of date unit?
So they really have become redundant in the face of the army reforms and whether you simply disband them to add to the population of your cities and send the off in a gorious and bloody battle is up to you...
It better than still having your old FAA running around in the late medieval period kicking arse because they have loads of experience (like 300 years!) and have been re-equiped with the latest weapons...
PS. Total agree on the reforms happening 100 years or so too early... Forgetting the historical outrage it is really poor gameplay wise as you have to fight hard to get Triarii but just as they arrive they are out of date!!!
MonkeyMan
10-05-2004, 14:49
I agree you should be able to retrain them to their equivalent level of post marius unit, but personally i disbanded them. The experience my best units had gained by 220-30 something bc (best had about 1 silver chevron) was totally outweighed by the maius units far batter stats. So all of them were disbanded or sent to guard a backwater.
That included all my triarii too, i had only just built my first 2-3 units and they were unused in battle.
Doug-Thompson
10-05-2004, 15:04
Ship them east, to cities where I had to massacre the population to quell civil disturbances, and disband them there.
It seems disbanding is the proper course then. Unfortunately, I only have one city that can make proper Legionary Cohorts at the moment. A few more will be able to soon, but most of my frontier cities are limited to Early Legionary Cohorts at best. Perhaps it is time for peace in the Empire. Hold the borders static and replace the armies one by one.
I agree you should be able to retrain them to their equivalent level of post marius unit, but personally i disbanded them. The experience my best units had gained by 220-30 something bc (best had about 1 silver chevron) was totally outweighed by the maius units far batter stats. So all of them were disbanded or sent to guard a backwater.
That included all my triarii too, i had only just built my first 2-3 units and they were unused in battle.
Yes, it would be great if we could upgrade pre-Marian Legionaries to post-Marian units. However, do NOT discount the abilities of seasoned pre-Marian legions! Every time a unit gains an experience chevron it's Attack, Missile and Defense Skills increase and it also becomes more resistent to routing. I would sooner use a grizzled veteran Hastati, Principes or Triarii unit in a critical situation than a rookie Legionary Cohort.
Doug-Thompson
10-05-2004, 15:26
I would sooner use a grizzled veteran Hastati, Principes or Triarii unit in a critical situation than a rookie Legionary Cohort.
House of Brutii bonus:
Temple of Mars, +1 valor
Large Temple of Mars, +2 valor
Awesome Temple of Mars, +3 valor
= Veteran-level Reform Army right off the bat. Build them in the Greek cities, which are all in a bunch right there together, and retrain them all in towns with an awesome temple.
When the civil war breaks out, it will be a massacre.
MonkeyMan
10-05-2004, 15:29
Yes, it would be great if we could upgrade pre-Marian Legionaries to post-Marian units. However, do NOT discount the abilities of seasoned pre-Marian legions! Every time a unit gains an experience chevron it's Attack, Missile and Defense Skills increase and it also becomes more resistent to routing. I would sooner use a grizzled veteran Hastati, Principes or Triarii unit in a critical situation than a rookie Legionary Cohort.
True but given you cant train reaplacement members to put these units back up to full strength (I seem to remember), this means the decent units eventually end up with only 10-20 members in (i'm playing on huge units), hardly an effective unit regardless of experience. I think if you check the unit stats in the game, the experience bonuses are added to their stats on the unit info sheet. So two units with the same equipment but different experience, have different stats stated (i think). Even with this my post marius units were superior to my best vets. Maybe if the marius event happened 80 years later then i'd have a few gold experience level units i'd think of saving for something special. Chances are they'd be disbanded all the same though.
"You notice that you lose the ability to even retrain the pre-marian units after the reforms so you can not replace losses in an out of date unit?"
That's just silly :(
(a) The marian reforms happen far too soon - should be about 150-100 bc i think.
(b) You should be able to retrain your veteran hastati, principes, triarri etc into the proper marian units.
I would like to be able to keep using the old ones until aroudn 150 bc, even if the reforms have already happened. I just like having the 3 different types and battlelines :)
True but given you cant train reaplacement members to put these units back up to full strength (I seem to remember), this means the decent units eventually end up with only 10-20 members in (i'm playing on huge units), hardly an effective unit regardless of experience. I think if you check the unit stats in the game, the experience bonuses are added to their stats on the unit info sheet. So two units with the same equipment but different experience, have different stats stated (i think). Even with this my post marius units were superior to my best vets. Maybe if the marius event happened 80 years later then i'd have a few gold experience level units i'd think of saving for something special. Chances are they'd be disbanded all the same though.
Yes but when the reforms took place I saved a good number of my experienced Republican legionary units to avoid that situation. The most experienced units are always at full strengh since they're drawing from the ranks of second most experienced unit after them and so and so forth. To avoid drastic bloodletting I usually keep these units as a reserve in battle or on guard duty in a province with a lesser enemy.
I just think it's a waste to simply disband such experienced troops.
Bob the Insane
10-05-2004, 16:01
This is oddly fitting as experienced troops often end up in cerimonial units using out of date equipment for parade duty....
This still goes on today... ~D
ChaosLord
10-05-2004, 16:18
I know how you all feel, i've only kept one major attacking army so far, the rest are just garrison troops. Some of these Hastati have been with me since the start. I've got one with 4 experience, a few others with 3, and the rest with 1 or 2 per unit. Plus good weapon upgrades. I don't think i'll use them as garrison troops or disband them though, its just not fitting. Instead my mid-50s General shall lead them on one final rampage through Gaul. Who knows, maybe i'll even get a shot at their capital. :P
Chimpyang
10-05-2004, 17:07
On my Julli cmpaign I packed off my most veteran army and they returned with some more chevron, I had 2 units of hastasii with 2 gold chevrons. I'm definately keeping those.
DisruptorX
10-05-2004, 17:16
Roman Cavalry has higher stats than the post-Marian unit that replaces it. I would keep those guys for sure.
Roman cavalry is the post-Marian Equite, IIRC.
I had around 2 full stacks of pre-Marian legionnaires and I just sent them off to conquer Iberia, then Numidia, then Sicily. I just combined stacks when they got too small and used mercs to bolster their ranks. I ended the game with still almost a full stack.
DisruptorX
10-05-2004, 17:46
Roman cavalry is the post-Marian Equite, IIRC.
.
Then it is the other way around, the pre-marian unit is better than Roman Cavalry. By 1 attack point, or some tiny difference.
hastati and principes are not obsolete.
hastati are better than their pm counterpart.
Principes are almost as good.
Triarii are terrible, but they're still very good troops relative to the inf that other factions have.
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