View Full Version : Anyone heard of the goedendag weapon
I was researching the battle of Courtrai in which the Flemish pikes defeated the French in the early 1300's. The Flemish had an unusual weapon called the Goedendag which formed the second rank of their pike formations.
Here is some information:
http://www.liebaart.org/goeden_e.htm
TheViking
10-16-2002, 01:01
Goedentag means Gooday in Dutch. I almost sure of it. i think its weird if some1 calls a weapon like that.
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There I see my father.
There I see my mother, my sisters and brothers.
There I see my line of ancestors back to the beginning.
They call on me and ask me to take my place with them in the halls of Valhalla where the brave may live forever.
[This message has been edited by TheViking (edited 10-15-2002).]
Coeur De Lion
10-16-2002, 01:06
lol maybe good day as in it will be your last :s
Coeur De Lion
Hakonarson
10-16-2002, 02:33
Yes - it's a well known low-countries weapon.
I ahve an illustration of it - think of a long tapering shaft, maybe 6 inches/15cm diameter at the striking end and 4-5 feet long.
The end is flat but the circumference is reinforced with an iron ring, and there's a spike set in the middle.
It's essentially a 2-handed club.
Dionysus9
10-16-2002, 02:36
Hello! Greetings! Good Morning to you...
now YOU DIE!
Quote Originally posted by Dionysus9:
Hello! Greetings! Good Morning to you...
now YOU DIE!
[/QUOTE]
Yeah, that's IS probably how the name of this weapon came about; "Good Day" being the war cry the Flemish militia used back then when they knocked you on the head with this thing! Nice to see sarcasm was alive and well back in the Middle Ages.
deejayvee
10-16-2002, 05:19
In Australia we call it the "G'day".
Guten Tag = "Good Day" In German
solypsist
10-16-2002, 09:04
moved to history
"Goedendag" (with a d, not a t !) is indeed dutch for 'good day'.
It was a weapon used in the low countries, mostly flanders and brabant, by the peasantry.
It was a weapon that can be described as a solid (often with a triangular shaft) dagger mounted on a reinforced wooden handle.
It could be used to punch through armour to some extent, and used to bash with as a club as well.
The origin of the name is uncertain, buth thought to be a word-joke of the day, with 'goden dac' meaning 'good dagger' in old dutch and someone basterdizing it into 'goden dag' which translates to 'goedendag' in modern dutch.
Hakonarson
10-17-2002, 02:28
One source I have says that the name "goedendag" was incorrect and teh correct name is "plancon", pronounced plans-on (withe the little French accent-thingy under the "c")
Does anybody here remember that first boss from Wolf3D? "GUTEN TAG!". hehehe
Damn that guy is hard to beat on Death Incarnate...
As far as the goedendag, I'd also be interested to know what sort of armor/shields/accessories etc. the Flemish militia had besides. Hmm..
Del
[This message has been edited by Del (edited 10-17-2002).]
Hakonarson
10-17-2002, 09:04
Mail hauberk, round/skull cap helm, mail coif, short armed surcoat, heater/kite shield.
Every man? Or just the rich ones? If you've got a militia with every or even most of the unit having that kind of outfit... well that's gonna be a force to contend with. The armor as always is half the gig.
Del
the Count of Flanders
10-17-2002, 15:52
Well goedendag does mean good day and the name apparently comes from the effect the weapon had on knights. The weapon was most effectively used against knights by jabbing it in the area under the chin of the mounted knight, the knights head would then make a "nodding" movement as if he was saying "good day to you, sir", hence the name. This is only one explanation though.
And it wasn't the main weaponry of the peasantry but the most important weapon used by the town militias (which did have some military training). Also the battle of Courtrai wasn't fought by peasants (in contrary to popular belief) but by the cities
militia's.
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[This message has been edited by the Count of Flanders (edited 10-17-2002).]
Hakonarson
10-18-2002, 03:00
Every man - they were the militia of some rich towns remember.
we tend to think of medieval infantry as beeing a rabble when it was far from the truth - see any discusion on here of the effectiveness of spearmen for my take on things!! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
In fact medieval levies were USUALLY quite well equipped - with helmet, shield, spear and sword, often with armour.
There were enough such well equipped troops to form large sectinos of all armies from the earliest times in the MTW time frame in almost every society. Such troops of course represent the best of the common population - many times their number of poorly equiped troops could be called up but normally weren't because of their limited usefulness.
clansman
10-18-2002, 18:21
The Flemish gave no quarter on the day and as the unhorsed French nobles struggled to get to their feet and cried for quarter, the Flemish are alleged to have replied "We don't speak French!" WHAM! LOL! Wonder if they said G'Day first? HaHa!
Mori Gabriel Syme
10-18-2002, 18:35
Quote Originally posted by Jagger:
... the Goedendag which formed the second rank of their pike formations.
[/QUOTE]
I have read that each rank alternated a spear and a goedendag, with a pavise in front of them. The charging knight, squires, and sergeants had to contend both with the braced spears & the swinging goedendags as they hit the ranks.
& thanks for the great link. It's good to see pictures of the tops & the probable reconstruction.
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Others enslave by victory,
Their subjects, as their foes, oppress;
Anna conquers but to free,
And governs but to bless. -- Edmund Smith (Anna stands for England)
Liebaart
10-25-2002, 13:41
My page http://www.liebaart.org/goeden_e.htm tells most of the story.
Now, what Count of Flanders tells about the etymology is not correct. I heard that same story about the alleged nodded head movement when I was a child. It is pure nonsense.
Fact : the Flemings themselves most probably did not use the word Goedendag. They called it a "gepinde staf" or pinned stave in English.
Fact : the word "Godendac" or similar can only be found in French sources.
It is my believe they corrupted the wording "Goede Dagge", meaning "good stabbing weapon".
It is not entirely known how the ranks formed up in Kortrijk. The pikes most certainly were in front line to halt the cavalry charge of the knights. The men with goedendags were immediately behind them, or perhaps indeed alternating pike-goedendag.
The pike stops the horse and the goedendag finishes off.
Joris
ShadeFlanders
10-25-2002, 17:11
Quote Originally posted by Liebaart:
My page http://www.liebaart.org/goeden_e.htm tells most of the story.
Now, what Count of Flanders tells about the etymology is not correct. I heard that same story about the alleged nodded head movement when I was a child. It is pure nonsense.
Fact : the Flemings themselves most probably did not use the word Goedendag. They called it a "gepinde staf" or pinned stave in English.
Fact : the word "Godendac" or similar can only be found in French sources.
It is my believe they corrupted the wording "Goede Dagge", meaning "good stabbing weapon".
It is not entirely known how the ranks formed up in Kortrijk. The pikes most certainly were in front line to halt the cavalry charge of the knights. The men with goedendags were immediately behind them, or perhaps indeed alternating pike-goedendag.
The pike stops the horse and the goedendag finishes off.
Joris [/QUOTE]
Actually I read it in the "Gazet van Antwerpen" in an article after 11/7/2002. But thanks for sorting that out anyway.
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