Battle of Courtrai

[Mori Gabriel Syme]

I'm having difficulty finding more than basic information about the battle of Courtrai in 1302 (the wake-up call which the French proved they had ignored at Crecy). Does anyone know of a good source? I'm particularly interested in knowing the melee weapons used by the Flemish & the background of their leader(s).

& if people feel like discussing the battle here, that would be great.

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Once more into the breach, dear friends; once more consign their parts most private to a Rutland tree! & men in London, still a-bed, shall think themselves accursed they were not here & hold their manhood cheap while others speak who fought with us on Ralph the Liar's Day!
--Richard III
The Black Adder: Ep. 1-The Foretelling

[Hulegu]

J.F. Verbruggen, The Battle of the Golden Spurs: Courtrai, 11 July 1302, ed. Kelly DeVries, trans. D.R. Ferguson, Boydell Press, Woodbridge 2002, is more or less all there is in print in English that's accessible. Note first published 1952. Having only recently acquired it myself I can't tell you whether it answers your specific questions.

[the Count of Flanders]

Absolutely the best website is the liebaert: http://www.liebaart.org/
Both the weapons and the leaders are (briefly) discussed on this website.
Plenty of books out there, I would recommend the book that came out this year (in 2002 the 700th anniversary of the battle was celebrated here): but I'm not sure whther it was translated (and I can't remember the writers). The translated title should be something like "the flemish revolution" .

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Proud member of the OOOO (http://www.oooo.freewebspace.com)

[This message has been edited by the Count of Flanders (edited 10-21-2002).]

[BlackWatch McKenna]

great site.

I sent an email to their organization telling them what a great job they did.

Man - those Flanders Folks sure like their history.

[Liebaart]

Actually, they mostly don't.
Few people know the history behind this battle. That's one of the reasons I made that site, to educate.

Joris

[ShadeFlanders]

Wow, ben jij die gast die op de site staat met volledige wapenuitrusting? (nogmaals, supergoeie site)
btw you should check the Medieval: total War forum, in the thread "the myth of the cav charge": Courtrai 1302 is a point of discussion in there. Your input would be greatly appreciated.

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Proud member of Clan Shades (http://www.shadesmtw.com) and the OOOO (http://www.oooo.freewebspace.com)
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the bum previously known as Count of Flanders

[BlackWatch McKenna]

Hjey, Joris!

I sent you that email from Southern California.

[Mori Gabriel Syme]

Thank you all for the answers; it looks like I will have much to study.

& it's a real treat to have a post from Liebaart!

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Others enslave by victory,
Their subjects, as their foes, oppress;
Anna conquers but to free,
And governs but to bless. -- Edmund Smith (Anna stands for England)

[Hakonarson]

I'vev just found a reference to a book on the battle -

THE GOLDEN SPURS OF KORTRIJK
How the Knights of France Fell to the Foot Soldiers of Flanders in 1302
By Randall Fegley

does anyone know of the author or if it's any good?

It's for sale via George Nafziger's website - http://home.fuse.net/nafziger/Ancient.htm

[Liebaart]

You can find a bibliography of the battle here : http://www.liebaart.org/biblio_e.htm

The Fegley book is a good introduction. He even references back to my site. A review can be found here : http://www.deremilitari.org/review13.htm

Joris

[Hakonarson]

Thanks - it's a prety damning review if you want the book for some history!!

On the subject of your web site - you say that spears were 2-3 metres long and lances 3-4 metres - all the other sources I have reckon that Flemish spears of that time were 10-12 feet (3-3.5 metres), and I have never seen any reference to cavalry lances that long from the period - where does this info come from?

[Liebaart]

The review is not as "damning" as you would think. The reviewer clearly says :
"The book does not fit easily into either the category of scholarly monograph or that of popular history but as the only text in English on the topic brings a notable incident in the history of warfare to a wider audience."

That makes it in my view an ideal book for someone who does not look for a scholarly work, but still wants something more than just a tour guide.

My information on lances and spears comes from different sources. One has to differentiate between these two terms. A spear is intended to be thrown, a lance is intended to thrust or to accept impact.

Try throwing a 3 meter spear.... nearly impossible.
Try to go into battle with a lance shorter than 3 meter.... your opponent will hit you first.

Joris

[Hakonarson]

Umm..no, psears were NOT meant to be thrown - they could be - anything can be thrown - you can throw a 6m pike if you want to!!

"Spears" that are ment to be thrown are normally called javelins, and AFAIK there's no evidence at all that Flemish spears were meant to be thrown!!

However there are some odd things in history, for example Byzantine infantry called Skutatoi in the 6th-7th centuries AD were supposed to use their long spears butted into the ground to fend off cavalry, but to throw them at enemy infantry and to fight with swords.

[Del]

Well, actually javelin would usually refer to a weapon intended more or less exclusively for throwing. A dual purpose weapon is usually referred to as a "throwing spear".. although I must admit no true expertise and say that it's probabably not as clear cut as all that anyway..

Del

[Liebaart]

You are correct about javelins. That was my limited knowledge of the english language. With "spear" I do mean a javelin, like "speer" in my mothertongue Dutch.

Spear seams to be some kind of generic term? That's why perhaps we can better focuss on words like javelin, pike and lance.

Joris

[Hakonarson]

Quite right Del - strictly a javelin is somethign that is ONLY thrown, while a "throwing spear" is a better description for something used to throw or thrust.

Lieebart - the term spear is simply means a stick with a point, and so javelins and pikes can both be described as spears.

A pike is either a spear used 2 handed, or one that is significantly longer than others of the era. For example my sources call Scots and Flemish spears of 1300 pikes - yet they are used 1 handed. Contemporary accounts call them "pike" because they weer significantly longer than the normal spear of the age.

A lance is invariably a spear used by a horseman, but also implies that it is relatively long (for a cavalry spear), is thrust, and is of medieval or later origin.

Confusing I know - even for native english speakers!!

[Del]

I thought lances could also be short..

And I always thought the lowlander Scots used two-handed pikes.. as a matter of fact I'm certain of it.

Del

[Hakonarson]

Lances can be any length - norman ones of 1066 fame were 6-7 feet - not very long at all!

In 1300 (the time of William Wallace) Scots spears were 10-12 feet long and typically used one handed with a small buckler held in the other hand.

By later times (eg Flodden 1513) they had increased along with the rest of Europe to require 2 hands for their use (say 15+ feet).

The 10-12 foot spear has a long tradition of use in Scotland - it seems to have been the same length as that used by the Picts until they were over-run by the Scotti about 800 AD (I think) - Romans noted the spears of the Picts when they founght them in the 1st century AD.

Lowland Scots spearmen seem to have used the weapon as a matter of habit.

Sources are the WRG Armies series - Armies and Enemies of Imperial Rome (Phil Barker), and Armies of the Dark Ages 600-1066 and Armies of Feudal Europe 1066-1300 both by Ian Heath.

[This message has been edited by Hakonarson (edited 10-31-2002).]

[Del]

How the heck would they have managed to use that weapon with only one hand???? I am mystified.

Additionally, it would be impossible to form a schilltron using the weapon with only one hand. I believe you are mistaken my friend.

Del

[Hakonarson]

It's not hard - I've held a 10 foot simulated spear in 1 hand without bother, and you make a schiltron by placing the butt end in the ground and using 1 hand to support the spear and point it at any incoming target - the same technique was used later on for pikes - which could be up to 21 feet in length!!

Here's a page with a picture of the basic position for a pikeman - a spearman would be the same, but with a shield on his left arm: http://www.luckhardt.com/ecwsa60.html

I'm a little disappointed that you think that it can't happen therefore I'm wrong - ahve you ever considered that you might not be correct??