A Withdraw is NOT a defeat!! [Archive]

Colovion

10-10-2004, 22:55

:furious3:

I invaded the Italian Penninsula, setup a sige with a single Militia Cav to wait for my other troops with. The enemy - One unit of Hastati and a General's Cav sallies forth. THe hastati take a bunch of casualties from my Militia Cav and after using all their Javs up I withdraw them off the battlefield.

"Clear Defeat" ~:confused:

I didn't lose any men! :furious3: I Pressed "Withdraw" They die on the campaign map so there goes THAT idea of having a screening army to pen up a city.

two steps forward, one step back, one shoe missing

Rome: Total Waltz

~:mecry:

Scorpion

10-10-2004, 23:41

Wait a minute....you withdrew your troops and found them wiped out at the campaign map?

discovery1

10-10-2004, 23:56

Yeah, thats what tends to happen when you withdraw from a assault/sally. We think it has something to do with have a clear avenue of retreat.

Oaty

10-11-2004, 01:37

Well I do see it as a defeat Colovian, because the attacking army did there intentions. Chased you away.

But losing the cavalry is plain dumb I know how you feel on that. Hopefully CA fixes this problem

Colovion

10-11-2004, 01:49

Yeah, thats what tends to happen when you withdraw from a assault/sally. We think it has something to do with have a clear avenue of retreat.

THat isn't true. I thought it might be but I was invading the boot of Italy, had my troops just coming off the boat but not enough movement points to get to the town to siege so I sent the Militia Cav as a screen, then he did his duty of killing some of their guys and then Withdrew. Sure, they did what they were meant to and I don't really care if it says Defeat - I just care that you can't Withdraw from a siege without losing all of your troops.

andrewt

10-11-2004, 01:51

discovery1

10-11-2004, 01:59

Agreed. I thought at first that it's related to percent of casualties but apparently there's some other factors involved producing weird results. I've had a defender sally using an outside army, get obliterated except for one lone hoplite and I still had to assault that one lone hoplite.

What? When they sally with outside support and I destroy them I just walk into an empty city. Then again , I do tend to aggresively ride down routers. The one time I didn't the seige continued. Then again, perhaps I just kill all of the troops from inside the city usually.

The_Emperor

10-11-2004, 11:38

Thoros of Myr

10-11-2004, 12:06

I've yet to withdraw from a seige but in my 1st Parthian campaign I was under siege by Egypt. My army inflicted heavy casualties on thier main assualt force. They had another, smaller force waiting out of arrow range that withdrew when they saw the death of that force, I was granted a victory but thier 3-4 units that withdrew where untouched and still existed on the camp map...so is it only working for the AI or it's something to do with army size?

Derfal Cadarn

10-11-2004, 13:03

Bob the Insane

10-11-2004, 13:41

If your army withdraws from a sally it is an automatic defeat.

The army that sallies has a clear objective: To break the siege by killing you or chasing you off. As the besiegers it is your duty to kill them all and still be there at the end of the battle, or to take the city in the chaos.

Totally agree...

Note that if you are the one Sallying (spelling?) and you get all you troops back inside the gates and then end the battle (hit escape and choose Exit Battle) it is registered as a Draw...

The AI does not appear to do this and only sallies if it thinks it can defeat you or if the siege time is about to run out...

What happens if the battle timer runs out during a battle where the AI is sallying, but you are still in the fight????

As for the other issue of a withdrawing army disbanding, well it is a bit odd and I don't really understand it yet but I have seen the AI withdraw their full army from the battlemap before any casualties occured, I get a clear victory and the enemy army moves a huge distance away back in the direction of it's own borders...

Ulstan

10-11-2004, 15:25

I fought a massive battle vs the gauls (I do not think it was a siege, don't remember there being a town).

Anyway, I was outnumbered by a lot, but since they are gauls they managed to start their chain rout and start fleeing off the field after a long fight.

My archer unit was completely out of ammunition at some point and I had them withdraw because the barbarians were charging my lines and I didn't want the archers caught and killed unnecessarily and figured that it was just best to have such fragile troops out of the way.

Anyway, it came down to one formed unit of the gauls left on the map, with 2k of them dead and maybe 300 of my own men dead. I lost the battle (no problems there) but when I got back to the campaign map my archers were completely gone!! That is quite silly.

Bob the Insane

10-11-2004, 15:32

but when I got back to the campaign map my archers were completely gone!! That is quite silly.

You might need to search a little because I have seen defeated armies disappear into nearby towns (yours obviously) or even onto nearby ships if they are accessable...

But there is also this disbanding mechanic that comes into play if a certain percentage of your army is destroyed or something like that... Don't quite understand that one yet...

Encaitar

10-12-2004, 07:59

The_Emperor

10-12-2004, 09:23

Emperor

Maybe it was the generals reputation that made the enemy withdraw without engaging, hence if a general is good enough to cause that much fear in teh opposition he deserved to be rewarded for being able to conquer a land without losing any casualities.

No it was the fact that I outnumbered them. Besides I never even got to the battle deployment, the enemy army just backed away on the campaign map, and my General levelled up without doing anything on the battlefield.

This is a bad exploit in my view. Next time you get an army of rebels appear in your territory and you outnumber them attack and force them to withdraw, then instead of pursuing them to combat right away go onto the next turn. You can then rinse and repeat and your general will keep on levelling up chasing rebels around the map.

Armies have strategically withdrew in history to choose the ground for battle beforehand. Hannibal was being pursued by the Romans (and didn't give battle) up until Lake Thrasymene, where he laid an ambush for them on ground of his choosing...

Likewise Napoleon chased the Russians into Russia, only to lose his army there.

So a strategic withdraw is not really a victory, yet in this game it is and for each time your army withdraws in RTW the better the enemy Commander gets and the stronger his army will be.

mambaman

10-12-2004, 15:46

I am in total agreement with most of the ppl on this thread in that i had apowerful army (with young faction heir) attack the Numidians last fort/settlement. Now i had heard that elephants could attack forts with wooden walls...no such luck!! It just wouldnt work (was i missing something?).

For that reason it made sense to beat a tactical withdrawal in order to build some seige machinery. What happened when i did that? The whole army and the faction heir lost!!! Now that is plain silly (and highly unrealistic). Surely you should be able to build seige machinery in the field (i.e. on the battle map) and why would my army be defeated in circumstances like this

CA an explanation would be nice.......... :furious3:

Bob the Insane

10-12-2004, 15:53

Love to know what would have occurred if you had just hit escape and choose exit battle rather than withdraw???

Might have been exactly the same result I guess...

mambaman

10-12-2004, 15:59

yeah Bob so would i-still we never know-i'd rather not risk throwing away that sort of high value Army and the faction heir again.....

Mori Gabriel Syme

10-12-2004, 16:09

An army that is defeated in non-friendly territory will attempt to withdraw to the nearest fleet or friendly border (or possibly fort as well, I don't recall if it's a valid option). If that distance that it must withdraw is greater than 3 turns worth of movement points, then the army is destroyed.
Thanks, that's good to know. It also helps explain the Greek army that backed all the way from Thermon to Athens, around the bend & back past Corinth to stand just across the water from where he started!

ToranagaSama

10-12-2004, 16:10

An army that is defeated in non-friendly territory will attempt to withdraw to the nearest fleet or friendly border (or possibly fort as well, I don't recall if it's a valid option). If that distance that it must withdraw is greater than 3 turns worth of movement points, then the army is destroyed.

WHERE did you get this information?? Please confirm.

Nelson

10-12-2004, 16:14

Now i had heard that elephants could attack forts with wooden walls...no such luck!! It just wouldnt work (was i missing something?).

I have seen elephants break wooden gates. I have never tried to hit a wall with them.

nokhor

10-12-2004, 16:40

in the readme file on cd 1, it says that an inf unit that ends up with 6 guys or less after a battle is automatically disbanded. and i can't remember whether that pertains to defeats in particular or just battles in general.

Bhruic

10-12-2004, 16:49

Elephant units should be able to target wooden gates and walls - I've done so in my Carthagian campaign.

I'm curious, has anyone tried to just take the draw? I mean, as attackers, the AI defenders almost never come out (I've only seen it by accident), so if you just up the timer to 3x, and wait, you should get a draw. Would that 'eliminate' the troops as well? A draw when attacking as defenders (or the besieged) doesn't eliminate them, so it shouldn't.

Wouldn't help if you've turned the timer off, I guess, but otherwise would be a semi-decent compromise.

Bh

Bob the Insane

10-12-2004, 22:25

Just did some tests and it does not look good.....

Playing a Carthage besieging a Roman Scipii settlement I out number and out power the defending force...

After one turn of seige I start an assault...

Now if I immediately witdraw all my forces I get 0 casualties on either side and I suffer a Crushing Defeat... My army disappears and the General commanding is reported dead... ~:eek:

Now reload and start the battle again but this time immediately hit escape and then exit battle, I get a warning that I lose the battle, I suffer a random 60 odd casualties and the enemy about 10 and I get a Close Defeat... My army breaks the siege and withdraws a couple of spaces...

Note: this battle took place only about 5 moves from my border and about 12 moves from my nearest settlement...

I tried the second method again but attacked with missile troops and broke open the gates (using elephants!) I also got a Close Defeat but caused about 250 casualties to the enemy, but still suffered about 60 random casualties of my own...

So.... WTF!?!?!?!? :help:

As a defender in a siege I can sally out kill a few attackers retreat into the city, hit escape and exit battle and get a draw... But I can't attack a city and withdraw without trying to take it????

An occurance that was discribed as a possibility during the development (i.e. attack a city with catapults destroying the infastructure and then withdrawing without taking the city...) can't be carried out without either lossing your army or suffering mysterous casualties!?!?!?

I do not mind the defeat results but the random casualties or losing your army is wack....

Orvis Tertia

10-12-2004, 22:50

Nice discussion. Here are a few random observations that pertain to several points made here:

1. If you want to use a screening force to soften up or delay an enemy, for instance if you want to send some cavalry ahead to engage the enemy while you assemble your army (on the strategic map, I mean), then don't take your general--use a captain. As far as I know, the loss you will get won't give you any negative traits if there is no general in your army.

2. Withdrawing might sometimes be smart and even more damaging to the enemy than to you, but it can still be perceived as a loss by the troops. For instance, Robert E. Lee took a lot of flak for digging in and being defensive at the Battle of Vicksburg (in the American Civil War) even though it was smart. So at the Battle of Gettysburg, Lee rejected the wise advice of his general Longstreet, who advocated digging in and using the defensive terrain to his advantage. Instead, he decided that he didn't want to get pegged as a timid defender, so he attacked. We all know how that panned out. I know this isn't relevant to a lot of the situations in-game, but it does bolser the case for making a withdrawal equal a defeat.

3. Pushing an enemy back who chooses not to engage you can give you a command star, but not every time, and it seems to grow less likely as your general gets more powerful. I have found that it's not possible, or at least not easy, to abuse this mechanism.

Bob the Insane

10-13-2004, 09:41

Thinking about the test I did, I guess I understand that hitting 'escape 'and 'exit battle' should never be of benefit to the player or you could always do this if a battle went bad, so I guess making you lose the battle with some casualties is not so bad... Ideally I think performing this action in a normal battle should force the battle to be autoresolved from this point, but well...

But I find the logic behind withdrawing really odd, you withdraw your troops from a battle in good order and they all just vanish, I understand the fact that you effectively lose the battle, but how can an large, intact and in good order army simply disappear!?!?... I would love to see the logic documented...

Personally I think that withdrawing army should just move back a space or two and if it can not withdraw because there is no space (back against the mountains or the sea with no ships waiting) then it may be fair that the army is lost, but perhaps in that case the withdraw option should be disabled for the battle....

I wonder if withdrawing is only this devistating for the attacking player???

Tricky Lady

10-13-2004, 09:53

Pushing an enemy back who chooses not to engage you can give you a command star, but not every time, and it seems to grow less likely as your general gets more powerful. I have found that it's not possible, or at least not easy, to abuse this mechanism.

I think so too. In my current Brutii campaign, I send a young family member (only 2-stars) around to find and destroy some rebels. I managed to get him 3 additional stars. Now he doesn't gain stars that easily anymore, even when rebels retreat without putting a fight. Another family member who's leading my main army (who's campaigning against the Greeks and Macedonians) got some trait increases (Good commander - superb commander and so on) up to 8 stars I believe, because I managed to defeat a few Greek/Macedon armies against the odds. So in my opinion this system works well.

Mori Gabriel Syme

10-13-2004, 15:10

3. Pushing an enemy back who chooses not to engage you can give you a command star, but not every time, and it seems to grow less likely as your general gets more powerful. I have found that it's not possible, or at least not easy, to abuse this mechanism.
Also, I had a general defending Athens against waves of Macedonian troops. Often, he would sally against a small force when there were no Macedonian reinforcements around, & knock it back, but there were so many forces nearby that he couldn't pursue to engage it for risk of not being able to return to the city. Then, he knocked back one small force, & a new trait appeared: "Doubtful Courage."