HA in RTW

[Doug-Thompson]

Won the Roman campaign yesterday evening, played Parthians all night.

For the first time ever, I applauded a computer game out loud. When a big battle with the Seleucids was over, I felt like CA deserved a hand.

The problems infantry players have with this game are pretty obvious -- the foot troops run around like winged Mercury. However, this is a GREAT game from a cavalry player's point of view, and I'm not talking about cavalry being overpowered.

1. Skirmish mode actually works. HA hit and run from the closest unit, not the one they're firing at, or seem to so far.

2. The keyboard commands for wheeling, or rotating a unit's facing, are perfect. So are the commands for widening or shortening the formation, which appear to work while the unit is on the run.

3. You get to deploy before you attack, a big improvement over M:TW where you could only deploy properly when you were defending. All units may benefit from careful placement, but HA do in particular.

4. HA fire on the move.

5. Galloping through a routing unit works very well.

But first, foremost and above all: The strategic map is a cavalry player's dream come true. Cavalry can explore and raid almost at will. Even if an infantry-based army has some decent cavalry, that cavalry will be badly outnumbered if it detaches from the army to chase my cavalry.

Three armies of cavalry converged on one invading Egyptian army in my current game, coming hundreds of miles from each direction. Then the commanding general hired more cavalry mercenaries. This is great. I get to finish that battle tonight and fully expect to give the Egyptians a thorough humbling.

In the earlier battle, the one I applauded, the Seleucids had a general, his unit of bodyguard cavalry and a good unit of light cavalry -- the ideal anti-HA unit -- but were short of missile troops. They had one unit of peltasts among the phalanx and peasants. Less than 500 Parthian cavalry, all HA except for two units of 54 cataphracts each, killed more than 700 Seleucids and routed the rest in an open battle. I wrote the figures down at home but, if I remember, I lost between 5 and 10 men.

[Sleepy]

I felt like CA deserved a hand.Something not said enough on these fora, amidst all the whinging.
Three armies of cavalry converged on one invading Egyptian army in my current game, coming hundreds of miles from each direction. Then the commanding general hired more cavalry mercenaries. This is great. I get to finish that battle tonight and fully expect to give the Egyptians a thorough humbling.Famous last words perhaps ...

[71-hour Ahmed]

I was feeling about the same regarding horsy troops till my Scythian army (I changed the unlockable factions if you are wondering how) fought the germans in winter. I don't know if they were fighting on an ice rink or something, but when the HA were riding towards the "Screeching Women" (such a bad unit) the ladies starting storming towards them.... so I turned them to the right and away to keep them a safe distance.... and several fell over! Not a joke - they fell over trying to turn to the side and died. The enemy was never closer than 100 yards and had no ranged weapons but I lost ~ 10 soldiers, and it can't have been friendly fire when no-one was shooting.

Incidentally, anyone else killed an amazon general yet? If you do, there seems to be a graphical glitch, she turns into a male corpse as she falls to her death. ~:eek:

[buujin]

I personally think horse archers are over powered, eccpecially from a multiplayer perspective

I like the way they fire on the move , but they should be less accurate.
When in cantabrian circle they are almost impossable to hit by other missles but can still fire just as well. This means that they can destroy infantry missle troops in a shootout and also have the speed and power advantages of being cavalry.

[Doug-Thompson]

... When in cantabrian circle they are almost impossable to hit by other missles but can still fire just as well. This means that they can destroy infantry missle troops in a shootout and also have the speed and power advantages of being cavalry.

A-ha! So that is what cantabrian circle is for.

If foot archers are no longer a good counter, you're right about them being over-powered.

~D

I can't wait.

[Doug-Thompson]

I was feeling about the same regarding horsy troops till my Scythian army (I changed the unlockable factions if you are wondering how) fought the germans in winter. I don't know if they were fighting on an ice rink or something, but when the HA were riding towards the "Screeching Women" (such a bad unit) the ladies starting storming towards them.... so I turned them to the right and away to keep them a safe distance.... and several fell over! Not a joke - they fell over trying to turn to the side and died. The enemy was never closer than 100 yards and had no ranged weapons but I lost ~ 10 soldiers, and it can't have been friendly fire when no-one was shooting.



That's wild. They must have simulated ice. There's no other explanation.

I'm not sure how accurate that would be, though. The Mongols, for instance, prefered to attack in the dead of winter because rivers were frozen over and the ground was always firm.

[Colovion]

Yeah HA's are awesome - the improved AI firing/skirmishing ability has really helped to bring them to what they really are - unbeatable without the right forces. I just did a fun test. 5 Persian Cav against 5 Princeps. I'm guessing the results would have been the same for any infantry, really - they all died without killing one of my soldiers.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Won the Roman campaign yesterday evening, played Parthians all night.

For the first time ever, I applauded a computer game out loud. When a big battle with the Seleucids was over, I felt like CA deserved a hand.

The problems infantry players have with this game are pretty obvious -- the foot troops run around like winged Mercury. However, this is a GREAT game from a cavalry player's point of view, and I'm not talking about cavalry being overpowered.

1. Skirmish mode actually works. HA hit and run from the closest unit, not the one they're firing at, or seem to so far.

2. The keyboard commands for wheeling, or rotating a unit's facing, are perfect. So are the commands for widening or shortening the formation, which appear to work while the unit is on the run.

3. You get to deploy before you attack, a big improvement over M:TW where you could only deploy properly when you were defending. All units may benefit from careful placement, but HA do in particular.

4. HA fire on the move.

5. Galloping through a routing unit works very well.

But first, foremost and above all: The strategic map is a cavalry player's dream come true. Cavalry can explore and raid almost at will. Even if an infantry-based army has some decent cavalry, that cavalry will be badly outnumbered if it detaches from the army to chase my cavalry.

Three armies of cavalry converged on one invading Egyptian army in my current game, coming hundreds of miles from each direction. Then the commanding general hired more cavalry mercenaries. This is great. I get to finish that battle tonight and fully expect to give the Egyptians a thorough humbling.

In the earlier battle, the one I applauded, the Seleucids had a general, his unit of bodyguard cavalry and a good unit of light cavalry -- the ideal anti-HA unit -- but were short of missile troops. They had one unit of peltasts among the phalanx and peasants. Less than 500 Parthian cavalry, all HA except for two units of 54 cataphracts each, killed more than 700 Seleucids and routed the rest in an open battle. I wrote the figures down at home but, if I remember, I lost between 5 and 10 men.
All of this makes me hopefull for three things:

-The possibility of a MedMOD 4.0 for RTW.
-In that event, I can finally stop micromanaging my Mongol Horse Archers.
-The Strategical map will allow me to use Subodei and Jebei's strategic pincer manouvers to cut reinforcement routes and encircle enemy armies with my toumans. :wink:

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Incidentally, anyone else killed an amazon general yet? If you do, there seems to be a graphical glitch, she turns into a male corpse as she falls to her death. ~:eek:
Ooops!!! :stunned: You've found out the secret CA was trying to hide!! They're MEN!!! :wink: :laugh4: :joker:

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

This means that they can destroy infantry missle troops in a shootout and also have the speed and power advantages of being cavalry.
That is why they aree called HORSE Archers... :wink2:

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Double post...

[Morindin]

I was feeling about the same regarding horsy troops till my Scythian army (I changed the unlockable factions if you are wondering how) fought the germans in winter. I don't know if they were fighting on an ice rink or something, but when the HA were riding towards the "Screeching Women" (such a bad unit) the ladies starting storming towards them.... so I turned them to the right and away to keep them a safe distance.... and several fell over! Not a joke - they fell over trying to turn to the side and died. The enemy was never closer than 100 yards and had no ranged weapons but I lost ~ 10 soldiers, and it can't have been friendly fire when no-one was shooting.

Incidentally, anyone else killed an amazon general yet? If you do, there seems to be a graphical glitch, she turns into a male corpse as she falls to her death. ~:eek:

I had a situation where I had 40~ Equites charging a lone Numidian Spearman who was ROUTING. Upon impact (in the desert) with the fleeing Numidian about 10 of my Equites promptly fell over and died.

[andrewt]

Watch out for the Egyptians and their chariot archers and archers. What I did was build up valor using Seleucids as target practice. I barely lost anything to the Seleucids. Many of my losses were friendly fire. You're going to need those chevrons against the Egyptians.

Also, keep an eye out for the corner of the map. HAs don't know how to skirmish out of corners or against obstacles. The skirmish AI thinks they are passable at first and skirmishes out too late.

[Doug-Thompson]

All of this makes me hopefull for three things:

-The possibility of a MedMOD 4.0 for RTW.
-In that event, I can finally stop micromanaging my Mongol Horse Archers.
-The Strategical map will allow me to use Subodei and Jebei's strategic pincer manouvers to cut reinforcement routes and encircle enemy armies with my toumans. :wink:

Now that would be wonderful. And it would work. I've done similar things to the Egyptians already. I hit an army with one force from Armenia and moved another, small force that couldn't make it to the big battle to the only crossing of a river. When I slaughtered the main body, the renants fled -- toward the river crossing.

They didn't even get to get their feet wet.

=========

Come to think of it, horse archers are just as deadly in M:TW. Learning the micro for them, though, was an ordeal. At least it was for me.

Now people who aren't totally obsessed with HA can get the same results I got in M:TW, and better.

HA in R:TW aren't overpowered. Skirmish mode works now. Who wants to argue that CA should break it?

Combine that fix with a elegant way to wheel your formation around. Those two things alone account for most of the improvement to HA.

[Akka]

so I turned them to the right and away to keep them a safe distance.... and several fell over! Not a joke - they fell over trying to turn to the side and died. The enemy was never closer than 100 yards and had no ranged weapons but I lost ~ 10 soldiers, and it can't have been friendly fire when no-one was shooting.
If there was woods nearby, it's possible that it was a hidden units firing at your horsemen.
(though I think that if firing, they go out of hiding, but...)

[Oleander Ardens]

Some thoughts about HA in RTW..

1. Yes, the skirmishing finally works like I suggested in the .com a year or so ago, with a wellthought thread of how to implement this changes. Took me some hours to describe a system which could do that, although I have to confess that I didn't thought about the edges of the map...

I don't know actually if they used this, in any case I'm happy that my Guys do now some nice skirmishing...

Here is it, btw, some kind of self-advertising

"A novel approach to skirmishing

All of us MTW players share the same problem when telling skirmishers to skirmish. Your unit of Bulgarian Bandits evades the fearsome peasant unit just to run into a full nice stack of Janissary Heavy Infantry… So a effective use of many skirmishers did mean especially on thing: much much mircromanagment. But how could we avoid this sometimes unsuccesful and often frustrating clickfest?

The solution is quite simple; Enable them to skirmish not just against one but against all enemy units which come to near. This means that the the skirmisher falls back in the opposite direction when a unit crosses it’s “safe distance” setting, trying to reestablish with a buffer distance which enable it to turn and shoot

So far so good but what happens when two enemy units come from two different directions too near? Easy the computer calculates the distances between your Unit S, Unit A and Unit B and than selects point C, which is in the center of line AB. Than it orders your Skirmisher to fall back in the opposite direction of point C.

An example will get the point across. Imagine your Balearic Slingers come from the North and attack some Velites in the south. The Balaearic slingers skirmishs against a unit of Velites. Both are equally fast, so that when the Velites try to engage the your Balearic Slingers, they simply run away in the opposite direction, also northwards with the velites chasing them. The distance between remains stable, let’s say 50m. Suddenly an hidden Velite unit charges out of some scrub and attacks the Balearic slinger from Eastnortheast. Once they cross the “safe distance radius” of the Slingers the computer calculates Point C which lies in Eastsouteast, with the result that the Slingers turn towards Westnorthwest; Result: your valuable Balearic funditores escape…

If more than two units engage your unit the procedure remains the same as in any case the distance between a pair of units which is the greatest will determine point C. This system works fine as long the enemy are of equal speed or slower that the Skirmisher, and as long the enemy doesn’t encircle him, but this not a question of AI but of HI.

So this system works beatifully, but what if a Velite and a Numidian horse do engage your Sythian Horsearchers? As before the the computer takes into account the distances between the three units after the Numidian horse and the Velites crossed the “security radius” of the Skythians (unit S). But as the Numidian Horse (unit B) closes faster in as the Velites (unit B), thus with a smaller growing distance between the Numidian Horse and the Slinger, with the distance Velites – Slingers remainig constant. Only initially point C is in the center of the line VN (Velites-Numidian horse), as it shifts toward the Numidian Horse. Why? Point C is determined by the relation between distance AS and distance BS. Initally we have a 50m:50m (1:1) relationship, but as the Numidians come nearer also distance BS becomes smaller, with the relation changing after five seconds in a 50m:25m. (2:1). Point C will therefore shift over this five seconds proportionally toward unit B, the Numidian horse, until the line BC is just half as long as line AC. Accordingly The Scythians will change direction and run away more from the more dangerous Numidians than from the Velites, withour getting closer to them or any other enemy unit, if possible. Plus the Sythians will increase their speed to reestablish the safe distance between the Numidians. To sum it up: the skirmisher skirmish in a intelligent way, avoiding elegantly all enemy units…at least as long they are fast enough and don’t get engaged from all sides. But this is a question of HI not AI…

But what happens when three or more units attack our poor Scythians from three greatly different directions, let’s say Velites drive them from West eastwards towards an unit of Hastati in the Southeast and Numidian horse in the Northeast? The Numidians close faster in than the Hastati and the Velites, becoming danger Number one. Now the computer calculates once again the distances between all the units, but point C lies on the longest line between the nearest enemy unit and an other enemy unit, in this case between the Numidians and the Velites.

This pocess is calculate again after a certain amount of time with the result that the Skirmisher gets almost of all weird situations out as long he is fast enough. If implementated this System RTW will have the first intelligently skirmishing units in a computergame, with them acting

2. True. The Keyboard function are very handy and allow you a quick control. Wheeling and the formations change work neatly, as the use of control groups. There is only one problem: You can't assign a number to a single unit and sometimes they are kinda hard to select due to the shallow ranks...

3. Very useful, as you have more room for you HA to skirmish and to kill people

4. Yup, and in every direction, which looks not only great, but it is incredibly useful..


Some other points:

There are some issues with the "stop shooting" command, as even with "disable fire at will" and "stop" they will continue to shoot on the enemy. This cost sometimes too much lifes of your own men..


Tactics:

I had nada problems against enemys weak in missles and cavalry, but I learned to hate swarms of light lancers. With equal low numbers of HA and light lancers I could easilz avoid edge/related problems with micro, wearing them down with arrows, but with 10+ HA and 10 lancers chasing me...
Still it every defeat was still a pyhrric victory of the enemy.

Have still to fight against missile heavy armys, as the Scythians have no such enemy in the West, so I don't know how good the Cant. Circle works against missile units.

Units:

The standard HA is a very good unit, as I conquered most of Thracia, Dacia and Greek with it, being deadly from a distance and fast. Only his morale issues are really a pain; Sometimes I was enraged of the stupidity of this guys.. Instead of picking of the last Hoplite unit from a distances they flee, runnig through the phalanx

Loved the Scythian Noble Archer, a very handy unit, being a perfect medium-heavy HA, while the Noble Woman was a more nimble medium HA.

So what are your impressions so far?

Cheers
OA

[Oleander Ardens]

Creative tactics

A incredible combination is the Persian cavalry with Warelephants and Lancers. Tried this out in the Costum battles. I use Warelephants as ultra-heavy HA, like moving fortresses which protect the nimble HA, the advantages are huge indeed...

A small teaser of OA, waiting for you comments..

Cheers

[Doug-Thompson]

Some thoughts about HA in RTW..

1. Yes, the skirmishing finally works like I suggested in the .com a year or so ago, with a wellthought thread of how to implement this changes. Took me some hours to describe a system which could do that, although I have to confess that I didn't thought about the edges of the map...

I don't know actually if they used this, in any case I'm happy that my Guys do now some nice skirmishing.

If they didn't follow your system, OA, they did something very close. Effective skirmishing was probably very difficult to write in to code, but they've apparently done it.

It's going to take me a while to get used to a skirmisher system that works. I still get nervous leaving it all on autopilot.


2. True. The Keyboard function are very handy and allow you a quick control. Wheeling and the formations change work neatly, as the use of control groups. There is only one problem: You can't assign a number to a single unit and sometimes they are kinda hard to select due to the shallow ranks.

We can't click select a unit on the mini-map anymore, either, which is a pain.



There are some issues with the "stop shooting" command, as even with "disable fire at will" and "stop" they will continue to shoot on the enemy. This cost sometimes too much lifes of your own men.

It got so bad in one battle, I left only one unit in place to fire and moved the others away.



Tactics:

I had nada problems against enemys weak in missles and cavalry, but I learned to hate swarms of light lancers. With equal low numbers of HA and light lancers I could easilz avoid edge/related problems with micro, wearing them down with arrows, but with 10+ HA and 10 lancers chasing me...
Still it every defeat was still a pyhrric victory of the enemy.

I started hiring and keeping camel and Arabic light horse mercenaries in the desert. There's plenty of them in Parthian lands. I used a few camels at first as a "bodyguard" unit for my general, then found the Arabic light horse were very good at catching enemy generals once their bodyguard units had been shot to pieces by HA. They support HA very well, too. The enemy cavalry gets worn out chasing the HA. Then the HA turn around and pour fire into the melee as soon as the Arabic cavalry arrive.



Have still to fight against missile heavy armys, as the Scythians have no such enemy in the West, so I don't know how good the Cant. Circle works against missile units.

All I can say about the circle is that is certainly doesn't hurt. Multiplayers who have run up against it say it is effective.




Units:

The standard HA is a very good unit, as I conquered most of Thracia, Dacia and Greek with it, being deadly from a distance and fast. Only his morale issues are really a pain; Sometimes I was enraged of the stupidity of this guys.. Instead of picking of the last Hoplite unit from a distances they flee, runnig through the phalanx

Loved the Scythian Noble Archer, a very handy unit, being a perfect medium-heavy HA, while the Noble Woman was a more nimble medium HA.

So what are your impressions so far?



Persian cavalry are very good, considering the low building requirements. Other than that, I don't have enough experience with other types to comment, OA.

[MadKow]

Hi
One thing about the Cantabric Circle. When doing that on a bridge battle, be sure to be far enough from the river because, if the center of the circle happens to be too near the margin, you may witness the circle of death, as the horsemen go round and drown.

[Bhruic]

It's going to take me a while to get used to a skirmisher system that works. I still get nervous leaving it all on autopilot.

To say that it "works", in general, would be incorrect. It certainly is better. But it suffers from a bad case of "border-itis". That is, it is quite easy to chase a unit (or have a unit chased) to the border, where it stops and stand there shrugging helplessly.

That, and I think they should have made player orders override skirmish orders, instead of vice-versa. Having to constantly toggle skirmish just to be able to have my units not head towards the border (which is a few steps away, compared to the vast open space the other direction) is just plain annoying.

Bh

[Doug-Thompson]

I've had a few units get "stuck" on the border. They touch the border and then stay there, even though their target has gone away. Weird.

Also, you're right, Bhruic. "Works" is perhaps too strong a word, but its certainly so much better that you don't have to be an HA fanatic to use HA any more. A little tidying, a little wheeling, a little avoidance of borders and a little rounding up of stray units sure beats the intense micro of M:TW.

[Steppe Merc]

Something not said enough on these fora, amidst all the whinging.
So we notice mistakes... Is that bad?

Any way, cavalry is extremely fun. Sadly, the HAs tend to kill each other when chasing routing troops, as you will evantualy see.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Now that would be wonderful. And it would work. I've done similar things to the Egyptians already. I hit an army with one force from Armenia and moved another, small force that couldn't make it to the big battle to the only crossing of a river. When I slaughtered the main body, the renants fled -- toward the river crossing.

They didn't even get to get their feet wet.
Excelent!!! I'm getting really pleased by this hability. Indeeed... :smile:



Come to think of it, horse archers are just as deadly in M:TW. Learning the micro for them, though, was an ordeal. At least it was for me.
For me they were too.


Now people who aren't totally obsessed with HA can get the same results I got in M:TW, and better.

HA in R:TW aren't overpowered. Skirmish mode works now. Who wants to argue that CA should break it?

Combine that fix with a elegant way to wheel your formation around. Those two things alone account for most of the improvement to HA.
Thanks for the tips. I can't wait to try it... :grin2:

[Doug-Thompson]

Sadly, the HAs tend to kill each other when chasing routing troops, as you will evantualy see.

This is so common, I stopped using HA with arrows to melee-chase routers. Arabic mercenary cavalry are relatively cheap, about $110 a turn in upkeep, if memory serves. They are better router chasers anyway. HA who are out of arrows will do, too.

Another thing that seems to work very well is to double-click on the ground right behind the routing unit, and keep doing so until you can see the galloping HA on the bottom edge of the screen in a close up. They're really close then. THEN order the pursuing HA to fire, not to melee.

The HA stop and let loose a volley at point-blank range straight into the backs of the fleeing unit. They can get off several close volleys before you have to repeat the process. If you have to.

To state the obvious, HA do much better at close range. Much of the micro now is ordering them to close in on the flank or rear of a marching unit and pour in that fire. Make every arrow count.

Finally, I have a few friendly fire problems but nothing like the problems that afflict some of the players. I can't account for that, unless it's because I always use formations only two ranks deep, and string all the units out in a very long, thin line. Units that don't get in action right away wrap around the enemy. There's usually plenty of targets for everybody.

[Doug-Thompson]

Thanks for the tips. I can't wait to try it... :grin2:

You won't be disappointed. :2thumbsup:

[Steppe Merc]

I also use 2 ranks deep, but then again it's on huge size, and I use massed numbers... Mabye too massed.

[Doug-Thompson]

I use large. Tried huge, but got a crash. However, I'll try again because there's apparently some glitch in the Parthian campaign start. At least there was for me.

Also, my next upgrade will be more memory. I have only 256k.

=========

There's less value in chasing routers now. A big ransom was nice in MTW, but now that incentive is gone. I still do it against disciplined units, especially, to prevent a rally.

I do like to chase down generals and family members. Leaves the opposing factions without heirs.

[andrewt]

I also hired all the mercs. Especially at the beginning, I kept checking for Bedouin Warriors, Bedouin Archers and Arab Cavalry. I just stopped recently because I have lots of them already. I'm still hiring Sarmatians every chance I get, though.

The Parthians have some fun HAs though the Scythians do have the better selection. I can now build elephants and cataphracts so I'm going to supplement my army with those, especially the cataphracts.

[Medieval Assassin]

Hi
One thing about the Cantabric Circle. When doing that on a bridge battle, be sure to be far enough from the river because, if the center of the circle happens to be too near the margin, you may witness the circle of death, as the horsemen go round and drown.
Ouch, Ive seen that bridge bug around some lately.

[Doug-Thompson]

I also hired all the mercs. Especially at the beginning, I kept checking for Bedouin Warriors, Bedouin Archers and Arab Cavalry. I just stopped recently because I have lots of them already. I'm still hiring Sarmatians every chance I get, though.

How are the Bedouin Archers? I haven't hired any because Parthians there's plenty of cavalry archers.

Bedouin Warriors saved my bacon once, and Arab Cavalry a couple of times.

[Oleander Ardens]

@Dough: My primary problem against these light lancers was the fact that even my Noblemen lancers had great difficulties to beat them sometimes - at least on (very hard)/very hard - if you have them in the first ten years or so at all...

I had annihilated the Thracians and was becoming the number 1 scorewise; The others didn't wanted it, so I was in a matter of two turns also at war with Dacia, Macedonia, Rom, Pontus, Greece, all of them breaking an alliance with me; So I had to use my units rather well... :charge:


Talking about controlling the HA and other units:


The small map in the left upper corner is key when using many HA, especially against light cavalry. With good grouping and "tab" one can pretty fast identify the unit which is going to have troubles. Now after you have selected the chased cavalry unit running towards the edge I take off skirmish and immediatly doubleclick on a safe spot of the stratmap. It is best if you learn to do so on the small stratmap itself. With some experience with the angle of directionchange it usually works fine so that I can micro another unit in the meantime; After a short period of time I reselect it and put it once again on A.I skirmish..

So with Small Groups and tab selecting your guys work well if you get used to it. But there are some problems too with it. For example I use a group "1" consisting of three Numidian Cavalry units and tab to scroll through them. So I press "1", selecting all and "tab", which gives me not the first one of the group, but the second one. This limits the usefullness of the "tab" which is still handy.


About "supporting" units:

I've used the Camelborn troops to suppport my Seleucid Milita Cavalry, and it really helps against other cavalry. Still War Elephants and Cataphracts/Camelcataphracts are a huge step above and are a incredible powerful addition to your Persiancavalry, as enemy cavalry will lose horrible against this guys.

So only massed archers with very good infantry could pose a thread, but usually superior tactics will finish also this danger of, especially since the flaming arrows seem not be the favorite of the enemy archers..

Cheers
OA

[Oleander Ardens]

BTW er I forget a major bonus for HA and all missiles in RTW:

Experience increases also the ranged skill making your guys more and more deadly. High value missiles will actually kill now better than low value counterparts, so it is really worth to keep a close look on your lads

My best buy was a Slinger from Rhodus which I buyed at turn two as Seleucid an which became a 2 sliver slinger after only 3 turns, without loosing a single man ~D

OA

[andrewt]

How are the Bedouin Archers? I haven't hired any because Parthians there's plenty of cavalry archers.

Bedouin Warriors saved my bacon once, and Arab Cavalry a couple of times.

They're slower than horse archers but have much better armor rating and they have a shield, too. Their total defense against arrows shooting them from the front is even slightly better than Persian cavalry. Their melee attack is just as crappy as that of regular horse archers but with the bonus against horses, you have the option to countercharge light cavalry using them. They would take significant losses, however.

Experience is very good now. I have a gold chevron HA, some silver ones and some Persian cavalry with silver chevrons as well. One Persian cavalry has 3 silver chevrons and a total missile value of 17.

[Doug-Thompson]

Re: Experience

Non-stop war with Egypt leaves me with a huge veteran army that will conquer the world -- IF I can ever break the @#$% Egyptians.

Kill all you want. Egypt will make more. The average quality of their troops is improving, too. It's still early in my Parthian campaign (hard difficulty.) At least a half-dozen of my heroic victory markers spangle the map. My top general is Nidintu-Bel, "the Horseman," which was a promotion over "the Mighty." He has 10 stars and an army of veterans.

In about 30 battles, with as many as four or five in one turn, I've had one defeat. I ran out of arrows and withdrew after killing 872 Seleucids. I lost 7.

At least 10,000 (Seleucids and @#$% Egyptians) killed (large unit size) would be a conservative estimate. This includes at least six family members including a @#$% Egyptian faction heir.

The Seleucids were sent reeling and are on the slide. The @#$% Egyptians just keep coming. They just took Damascus from the weakened Seleucids, which they're fighting while fighting me too. They are also at war with the Numidians. The Seleucids and I are de facto allies now, although I can't get a formal alliance. I saved Damascus more often than they did until it finally fell while I was killing @#$% Egyptians elsewhere.

The end result of this winning streak of crushing victories? Two provinces taken from the @#$% Egyptians; the wastelands of Palmyra and Arabia. I took Bostra for one turn, but had to pillage and abandon it. My big gains -- Assyria and Babylonia -- were taken from the Seleucids. I also took Phraaspa from rebels and Campus Alanni from the Scythians.

I accepted a ceasefire with the Scythians and have now invaded the Armenians, which should be a cakewalk compared to fighting @#$% Egyptians. I fully expect the war with Egypt to rage on, but I want to make some progress somewhere.

When I take Egypt, I'm going to plunder every town just out of spite.


======

OA, I'll get back to your points. Just had to rant a bit.

[Doug-Thompson]

My primary problem against these light lancers was the fact that even my Noblemen lancers had great difficulties to beat them sometimes - at least on (very hard)/very hard - if you have them in the first ten years or so at all...

I wish I could help, OA. I spend more time in the desert (fighting @#$% Egyptians), where their Desert Cavalry evaporate as soon as they come within sight of a camel.

As for the war against everybody, glad to hear you're not bored. ~;) Kind of like playing the Hungarians, isn't it?

======

That's a good tip on using the mini-map to find "cornered" units. I'll try that tonight.

============


I've used the Camelborn troops to suppport my Seleucid Milita Cavalry, and it really helps against other cavalry. Still War Elephants and Cataphracts/Camelcataphracts are a huge step above and are a incredible powerful addition to your Persiancavalry, as enemy cavalry will lose horrible against this guys.[quote]

Camels to panic enemy horses while your horses charge from another direction is deadly. Chariots, for example, can go out of control just like elephants. Occasionally, I've had camels start a panic while a melee-cav attack and massed HA tore the chariots to pieces before the enemy drivers could regain control.

[quote]So only massed archers with very good infantry could pose a thread, but usually superior tactics will finish also this danger of, especially since the flaming arrows seem not be the favorite of the enemy archers.

Superior tactics and superior mass. The ability to concentrate cavalry units on the strategic map is the real "secret weapon" here. A few light units of cavalry can make the "mobility gap" even worse. They can block the path of opposing armies, then refuse battle, thanks to their speed. Since captains don't seem to get vices, you can withdraw all you want.

Skirmishers like peltasts seem useless against HA. I don't think slingers have the range, either.


Cheers
OA

You bet.

[Doug-Thompson]

They're slower than horse archers but have much better armor rating and they have a shield, too. Their total defense against arrows shooting them from the front is even slightly better than Persian cavalry. Their melee attack is just as crappy as that of regular horse archers but with the bonus against horses, you have the option to countercharge light cavalry using them. They would take significant losses, however.

Hey, these troops can be used with the "one-two" combination described earlier: Camels to panic horses, melee cavalry to assist. With the high valor units and generals from numerous battles, the other side's horses will panic first.

[Bhruic]

Hmm, ok, they definitely need to work on skirmishing. I was doing some HA battles, and had the typical "run for the borders" going on. So I was turning off skirmishing, moving them myself, and then turning it back on.

This worked until one of the enemy units got between my HA and the border. Apparently, my HA decided that proper skirmishing tactics require running through the enemy unit. Needless to say, they were decimated.

Ok, so I figure it's time to withdraw. One of my units is at the border, so I withdraw them right away. Do they run over the border? Nope, they turn and try and run through a unit that was chasing them. Another unit down.

Hmm. Ok, so I try and manage a unit to get them away from the unit that is after them, and get them to the "right" border. But because of the other routing units, they panic and rout too. But instead of routing for an open border, you guessed it, they rout right through the unit that was chasing them.

So that was 3 HA units down, all because the AI's method of picking a path to take is extremely bad. And it would be a relatively simple thing to deal with.

1) Always skirmish away from a unit.
2) If at or near border, skirmish to the left or right.
3) Always rout or withdraw along a clear path.

These things would seem to be common sense. Especially (3). I mean, if you are in a battle, and you panic and flee, do you think you'd be fleeing towards or away from the enemy? I know which way I'd be going.

Bh

[ChaosLord]

Don't they always skirmish away from the enemy? The can sometimes go into an enemy when trying to avoid another though. As for the retreating stuff, I believe they try to go to the side they originally entered from. So if they're on the opposite side of the map they'll try to make it back to the other to regroup with their army, as running into the enemy controlled lands would probably result in getting killed. The AI is fairly good about not getting caught up on the map edge, though I have witnessed it once or twice with corners.

This is only from my limited exeperience using Briton Light Chariots and watching the AI's skirmishers though.

[Bhruic]

Don't they always skirmish away from the enemy? The can sometimes go into an enemy when trying to avoid another though.

You'd think so, but you'd be wrong. That example I posted above isn't the only time I've had them skirmish straight into the enemy. As as it was the only enemy unit within a large radius, I don't believe it had anything to do with "avoiding another".


As for the retreating stuff, I believe they try to go to the side they originally entered from. So if they're on the opposite side of the map they'll try to make it back to the other to regroup with their army, as running into the enemy controlled lands would probably result in getting killed. The AI is fairly good about not getting caught up on the map edge, though I have witnessed it once or twice with corners.

Again, that's what I'd have thought, except I've seen it not happen that way too many times. More often with the AI, of course, since it's routing in my games more than I am. But I've seen them scatter in all 4 directions. And exit the map on all 4 sides. So if that's possible, which is obviously is, wouldn't it make sense to have units rout away from the enemy?

Bh

[Doug-Thompson]

I've noticed some pretty weird behavior around the borders too, and not just by HA. Sometimes bodyguard units that I've chased there act, well, confused. They won't cross the border unless they rout, so they turn around and make suicide charges. Or just mill around there while my HA fill them with arrows.

My biggest problem with HA on the borders is the inability to "roll up" a strung out formation on the run. I thought you could before, buy you can't. Hitting the "-" button stops the formation.

This is serious, because it's much more difficult to escape from a corner when the unit's in a long, strung-out firing line. In MTW, i'd just hit "Wedge" formation and squeeze out every time. That option's gone.

[lars573]

Re: Experience

Non-stop war with Egypt leaves me with a huge veteran army that will conquer the world -- IF I can ever break the @#$% Egyptians.

Kill all you want. Egypt will make more. The average quality of their troops is improving, too. It's still early in my Parthian campaign (hard difficulty.) At least a half-dozen of my heroic victory markers spangle the map. My top general is Nidintu-Bel, "the Horseman," which was a promotion over "the Mighty." He has 10 stars and an army of veterans.

In about 30 battles, with as many as four or five in one turn, I've had one defeat. I ran out of arrows and withdrew after killing 872 Seleucids. I lost 7.

At least 10,000 (Seleucids and @#$% Egyptians) killed (large unit size) would be a conservative estimate. This includes at least six family members including a @#$% Egyptian faction heir.

The Seleucids were sent reeling and are on the slide. The @#$% Egyptians just keep coming. They just took Damascus from the weakened Seleucids, which they're fighting while fighting me too. They are also at war with the Numidians. The Seleucids and I are de facto allies now, although I can't get a formal alliance. I saved Damascus more often than they did until it finally fell while I was killing @#$% Egyptians elsewhere.

The end result of this winning streak of crushing victories? Two provinces taken from the @#$% Egyptians; the wastelands of Palmyra and Arabia. I took Bostra for one turn, but had to pillage and abandon it. My big gains -- Assyria and Babylonia -- were taken from the Seleucids. I also took Phraaspa from rebels and Campus Alanni from the Scythians.

I accepted a ceasefire with the Scythians and have now invaded the Armenians, which should be a cakewalk compared to fighting @#$% Egyptians. I fully expect the war with Egypt to rage on, but I want to make some progress somewhere.

When I take Egypt, I'm going to plunder every town just out of spite.


======

OA, I'll get back to your points. Just had to rant a bit.

You want to know how to break the Egyptians do you? Well it's easy one word really, Jerusalem. Take Jerusalem from the Egyptians and you will dry up their massive income. Speaking from experience as the Egyptians themselfs and the Seleucids Jerusalem can have an income of over 4000 denarii per turn. You don't even have to conquer Jerusalem it has a rather large cultural penalty right from the start against the egyptians so if you just besiege the city it will probably rebel against the pharaohs servants.

[andrewt]

Salamis is also important. It has huge trade income with Sidon and Jerusalem. I play on normal/normal and it took around 4-5 heroic victories w/ battle markers before I was able to weaken them considerably.

[Doug-Thompson]

You want to know how to break the Egyptians do you? Well it's easy one word really, Jerusalem. Take Jerusalem from the Egyptians and you will dry up their massive income. Speaking from experience as the Egyptians themselfs and the Seleucids Jerusalem can have an income of over 4000 denarii per turn. You don't even have to conquer Jerusalem it has a rather large cultural penalty right from the start against the egyptians so if you just besiege the city it will probably rebel against the pharaohs servants.

Your post has arrived in a nick of time.

I didn't get a chance to play much last night. I am tired of frontal battles along the Damascus-Palmyra corridor, so I moved my main army south. My plan was to get my veteran, mobile, all-cavalry army where I could strike Damascus, Jerusalem, or Bostra. Surely the @#$% Egyptians couldn't be strong everywhere.

The war has drawn a huge @#$% Egyptian occupation force into Damascus, and a large, well-equipped field army. I annihilated a small @#$% Egyptian army on the east bank of the Jordan. Scouting shows Jerusalem is almost defenseless and within striking distance.

I was wondering whether I should risk a lunge across the Jordan, whether it would do any good if I couldn't stay there long enough for it to fall in siege. I'll give it a shot. Thanks.

[Bhruic]

I can completely sympathize with you. I'm playing the Armenians (again), and have run into the mighty Egyptian empire. They are at war with just me and the Seleucid, who have been whittled down to 2 provinces. I destroyed Pontus, and took a few provinces from Parthia, so I was feeling pretty good. And then the Egyptians come along.

So far it's been an entirely defensive war on my part. I'm mainly playing HA armies, which work decently against the Egyptians, except for their &@$#@ Desert Cavalry. As they have 80 men (large army size), I can't take them down fast enough with arrows to prevent them from hitting the HA (with the typical "chase to the edge" system). So far I've managed to take out their armies, but they've got quite a few full stacks wandering around. Luckily, mainly near the Seleucid.

But I can't figure out how I'm going to take them down. I'm still at war with the Parthians, as well as the Sythians, so I can't afford to leave my provinces lightly defended. But I only make about 3K Denarii a turn, which leaves very little for army building. Right now I'm tempted to make the largest combined army I can manage, and try and sack one of their towns. I should get a nice payoff from it, which might let me have some luck expanding. Although the Armenian cities have quite poor farming, so I can barely grow them at all.

Let me know how the strike on Jerusalem goes, if it works for you, I might make it my choice as well.

Bh

[Doug-Thompson]

Let me know how the strike on Jerusalem goes, if it works for you, I might make it my choice as well.

Will do. I'll post it here.

A few camels and Arabic light cavalry, hired as mercs in the desert provinces, work wonders against desert cavalry. The camels spook them, then the light cav rips them up. Maintenance cost for one of those mercs is only $10 more than for peasants.

[Bhruic]

I've never been a big fan of using mercs in any of the TW series. Something about it just seems too "easy". Probably the fact that I can head out with an extremely light force and then buy 5+ units right before engaging.

But maybe I'll have to make some more use of them. I've started to produce some cataphract archers as an alternative - any light cav charging them will be in for a bit of a surprise.

Bh

[Doug-Thompson]

You want to know how to break the Egyptians do you? Well it's easy one word really, Jerusalem. Take Jerusalem from the Egyptians and you will dry up their massive income. Speaking from experience as the Egyptians themselfs and the Seleucids Jerusalem can have an income of over 4000 denarii per turn. You don't even have to conquer Jerusalem it has a rather large cultural penalty right from the start against the egyptians so if you just besiege the city it will probably rebel against the pharaohs servants.

Worked beautifully.

Also, I discovered something new and useful: cavalry fragments.

I wanted to check out if there were any big @#$% Egyptian armies close by. I had three cavalry units which, after merging and so forth, only had 2-4 men apiece.

I sent these "fragments" across the river first to scout in all directions. The coast was clear. I besieged Jerusalem, attacking from the spot just across the river. I had an all-cavalry army and didn't make any siege weapons. This was a mistake.

When the @#$% Egyptians counterattacked, their main army marched down from the north and used the same crossing over the Jordan. I was higher than them and beat them decisively. The enemy reinforcements from Jerusalem had to march uphill and arrived exhausted and too late. They never stood a chance.

Jerusalem had a garrison of one man after the battle. There was mercenary infantry available to hire. If I'd had one ram, I would have plundered and burned Jerusalem.

Instead, the city revolted, which was good enough. I checked the charts afterward. @#$% Egyptian production plunged more than a quarter of its whole value. We were equal. :2thumbsup:

There was another army coming down from the north, however, from the cost. That's when I did something that needs to be corrected in a patch or expansion. I surrounded the army with cavalry fragments. The next turn the attacked fragment withdrew and my main army had time and space to escape.

I went into the desert and took on some fresh reinforcements. The @#$% Egyptian army I ran from is now about to die before it can finish the siege of Jerusalem. Also, some mercenary infantry of mine is besieging Bostra. Damascus and other enemy cities are stripped of garrisons. Hopefully, the Seleucids will hit the depleted garrison in Damascus.

[andrewt]

I conquered Jerusalem as the Parthians. It's making around 500-600 in land trade per province among 5 provinces. It's making more per province on sea exports including 1000+ with Antioch. Conquering Salamis also is damaging against the Egyptians. Sea trade with Salamis is extremely profitable and it gives huge trade income to Jerusalem and Sidon. If you own these three cities, plus Tarsus and Antioch, just build port and port upgrades immediately and you'll never have a money problem again.

From my experience, Egypt's best provinces, moneywise, are Jerusalem, then Salamis, then Sidon.

[Oleander Ardens]

Yeah this three cities really help your economy, as I found out as a Seleucids ~;)

The Eggies in my Seleucid-game vh/vh were rather dissapointing, maybe due to the Numidian adventure on vh/vh were I was, well slightly outgunned by them in all possible aspects. But it may have been also the early conquest of Sidon, Salamis and Jerusalem, which allowed me to wander into the Nile valley without difficulties, taking Memphis and besieging Theben. Kept my distance from Alexandria as the Plague is there, and started to wonder were the Eggies mighty stacks were, as I defeated unusally few of them.

Well my question got answered, as after two turns two full Eggie stacks with the factionleader himself and loads of chariots turned up in the West, seems that they wanted to do a little walk in the desert...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

To come back to the HA issue:

The ranged attack definatly benefits incredibly more from the upgrades and the experience; Morale is definatly still great, as you don't want to loose the controls over your lads but the other effects are pratically equal to it now.

@Dough: Fine idea for a systematic use of this 2-3 men units, I will try that

Cheers
OA

[Bhruic]

I managed to snag Babylon from the Egyptians, and the 20% bonus to farming income has really helped out (from the wonder). That should give me enough income to continue the battle.

I highly recommend playing the Armenians to anyone who likes a challenge - they are quite poorly situated, have little income, and are likely to get hit from all sides.

Bh

[Doug-Thompson]

Discovered a new tactic. I stretched out HA in a very long, thin line that would skirmish with the enemy and wrap around his sides. However, I'd still have some HA left over in big armies.

I started puting some HA way out on the flanks behind the main line in a very long, narrow formation. Four files wide, 13 ranks deep. These units ride hell-for-leather past the flanks of the enemy army and circle around into the rear. I make them run, not worrying about tiredness.

Once there, they are "unfurled" by ordering a move by "stretching" out a new formation, two ranks deep and 27 files wide. They then run more and close in on the rear of the enemy army. The micro needed for all this is possible because the rest of the HA are skirmishing away from the advancing army.

The result -- total envelopment. It's hard for the enemy to keep up his advance when he's being shot at from behind.

Further, I put Persian Cavalry -- a good dual role archer/melee type -- on the wings of the main line. Lighter HA are in the middle, backed by my best melee cav, camels and Arabic mercenary cav. This makes the main line hard to break.