Will Shogun engine be used for other time periods? [Archive]

Nagao Kichigai

01-01-2001, 14:26

Has there been any discussion (geez, there must have been), or has CA dropped any hints about using Shogun's engine for conflicts set in other time periods, say, particularly the 18th and 19th centuries? I would love to see both a Napoleanic game and a Civil War game designed along the lines of Shogun (well, the Napoleanic one would have to be a bit different in the strategic department).

However, the thing I would like to see most of all is a recreation of the American Revolutionary War--not, again, along strictly historical lines, but in the way Shogun is designed, where you can build and assign your own resources; where you get a strong feel for the general mood and conduct of a war, without being tied down by strict, historical tethers. There has never, to my mind, been a satisfactory wargame made about the American Revolution, and I think this engine, using Shogun's hands-on approach, could deliver one.

Any thoughts?

Warmaker

01-01-2001, 14:55

I don't know about more recent warfare, even the Napoleonic on down for the current engine(with so much emphasis on ranged warfare, well, except when fixing bayonets for a charge, baby!). I see it doing best with Medieval on back though. My suggestion would be the conquests of Alexander the Great esp. against Persia. Or how about the Roman Republic/Empire? Pick any era, you'd have a plethora of armies/barbarians to fight against. Just the thought of seeing the Roman war machine at work should be a sight to behold.

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There's no such thing as overkill, just ensured victory!

Didz

01-01-2001, 16:08

There was quite a lot of discussion on this subject before the game extension was announced.

The conclusion was that the main obstical for most other era's would be the shear size of the armies involved.

But we live in hope.

theforce

01-01-2001, 17:20

It can handle it , i think.
The maps must be bigger though.
Also l would love to see what some cannons can do http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
The American civil war would be awesome.

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Don't use only honour, use theforce, too.
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Enter the Darkside...

Dark Phoenix

01-01-2001, 19:35

There was a brief mention of there being a Roman game using the Shogun engine on Gamecenter a while back, though that was not offical and has not been mentioned anywhere else.

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DoragonPhoenix of the Clan Doragon

Nagao Kichigai

01-01-2001, 22:33

Warmaker,

I don't think the size of the maps would necessarily preclude a Revolutionary-era wargame. The accuracy of the rifles of that period was not very great--certainly not great enough to justify wasting ammo and supplies on long shots.

But I'm an advocate of bigger maps, anyway. The current game could use them, for example, to help keep defenders from hugging the map edges.

theforce

01-01-2001, 23:27

The "guns" weren't accurate but there were cannons that could shoot from great distances. Cannons were usually used to fuck up the formation of the advancing army, to kill the enemy lol, and reduce the morale ala muskets in Shogun. If there aren't big maps these cannons woulb be useless http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

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Don't use only honour, use theforce, too.
http://www.darksideshogunclan.cjb.net
Enter the Darkside...

Nagao Kichigai

01-02-2001, 01:07

It's true that cannons could potentially shoot from long distances. However, the lack of radio communications must have pretty much ruled out much in the way of spotting. I imagine most cannon fire of that era depended on the line-of-sight of the firing unit, and it seems to me that that's the way it's always depicted in period paintings. Am I wrong about this? (I'm not exactly a student of the era with regard to the specifics of military organization!) http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

johnmcd

01-02-2001, 02:37

I'd like to see the Scottish wars of independance done, there is the same island constraint as Shogun and the battles were also very often relatively small, its just a shame that Braveheart totally cocked up those battles...

What about Aztec/ Olmec/ Inca/ Whatever game? The armies weren't vast, it is an interesting time, there is not too much reliance on ranged weaponary etc..

Slyspy

01-02-2001, 07:56

I still say a fantasy setting or, my favorite, an English Civil War game.

After all, this would include cavalry of various types, blocks of pikemen and other infantry, matchlock gunners and light cannon. The firearms and artillery at this time were not a dominant force on the battlefield and therefore would not dominate the game like they would in Napoleonic/ACW settings. This would fit more easily with the scale of STW, as would the idea of conquering a country province by province.

It is hard to find a suitable war with as many different factions as STW though!

I've probably already said this on another thread, so sorry if I'm boring you.

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"Put 'em in blue coats, put 'em in red coats, the bastards will run all the same!"

Magyar Khan

01-02-2001, 07:59

for most settings we need much larger maps, at least 2*2 bigger

Shiro

01-02-2001, 08:05

How about better unit graphics? Not that the engine need to be much better but I think improved unit graphics would go a long way for the engine and make it look nicer.

Warmaker

01-02-2001, 12:26

Your guys' mention of the English civil war sounds interesting. Since I'm in the USA I know next to nothing about that. Those various types of units does make it sound like it would be a much easier adaptation of the STW engine.

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There's no such thing as overkill, just ensured victory!

Anssi Hakkinen

01-02-2001, 21:36

Yes, as SlySpy mentioned, an English Civil War setting could be adapted to the STW engine much more easily than "all-guns" era wars (like Napoleon and the American Civil War). The problem is, the English Civil War has only two sides, who are at war against one another by default. So there would be even less diplomatic options than in STW.

The solution: the Thirty Years War. Same era than ECW, same technology (same units used by all sides), and, most important of all, *lots* of different factions. In addition to the myriad of German feudal vassals warring with one another, more than a dozen different foreign powers intervened in the Thirty Years War. A lot of possibilities for diplomacy here.

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"Crystal clear, / Sharp and bright, / The sacred sword / Allows no opening / For evil to roost."
- Ueshiba Morihei O-Sensei

johnmcd

01-02-2001, 22:00

The English Civil War also didn't really last long enough for many of the improvementy things to really matter, the thirty years war would be about the right timespan too...

Buccaneer

01-02-2001, 23:57

Actually, I've been fighting the Shogun battles using American Civil War tactics. I completely ignore the historical formations and set up/fight as if they were ACW artillery/infantry/cavalry. I've studied ACW strategies/tactics for 20+ years and I know that alot better than I do medieval warfare.

Using this engine for 18th/19th century warfare (along with the appropriate campaign maps) would be a perfect game (not like the schlocky, unplayable Sid Meier's Gettysburg/Antietam, imo). ACW games tend to focus on either the strategy part or the tactical part, but not both. The STW engine has both which gives it so much potential if they were fleshed out more. I understand that fundamental changes would have to be made to account for an all-gunpowder battles, but here's to hoping someone would do it.

hotomori

01-03-2001, 04:00

Another period that I for one would find interesting is 12th-13th century Italy.
A lot of small factions and quite a number of different troops, including missile troops. In addition it is a quite long period and significant changes were made during the period.
It has to be noted however, that there are some disadvantages to Italy. There is no "real" goal like there is in Shogun. Of course you could set out to conquer Italy, but you then hit another of the snags. The Italian armies were largely militia based and were thus not usable in any long conflict.
Still, I think it would be an interesting game.

Nagao Kichigai

01-03-2001, 10:17

I'm in full agreement with Buccaneer. What I think a lot of people fail to see is that Shogun is a fantastic success as a *wargame*. This game represents the absolute Holy Grail--in principle, if not yet fully and completely realized--for many grognard wargamers. At least, it's the Holy Grail for those who got into the business because of their love for matters military rather than simply a love of chess. Think of all the wargaming miniatures fanatics out there, for instance. What the hell else have they been trying to create all these years but, in essence, Shogun?

Consequently, my inquiry had more to do with getting a feel for whether anyone had yet realized or recognized the Shogun engine's success as a wargaming platform and what that could mean for the future of *wargaming*. I wasn't so much concerned with whether you could or couldn't cram the American Revolution or the English Civil War into Shogun's strategic wrapper. Of course that part of the game would have to be redesigned to accommodate the differing circumstances of differing times. But it's the battlefield engine that particularly excites the imagination of this particular wannabe general.

colour

01-03-2001, 13:27

maps, have you seen the map used in 3DMark2000 used in the helicopter benchmark? STW maps could be that detailed then GREAT! BTW, 3DMark is videocard benchmarking software for those who dont know.

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How about a chinese Total War?

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Ignorance is the night of the mind, a night without a moon or the stars.

johnmcd

01-03-2001, 16:57

Good grief, what is the population of Hawaii? Do you all post here? I would suggest that a battle set on Hawaii would be massive seller for a follow up given Shogun’s core market…

I agree with the helicopter comment. Those who have played something like Commanche – Hokum will know the level of detail and the number of units that PCs are capable of. There is no reason except manageability that I can think of to stop the battle maps being vast, in fact the size of a province. It might be harder to rout and some battles might take way to long, but mega maps could surely be turned on as an option so those that want long wars can have them and those that do not could choose a smaller battlefield area down to about the current size. It would make more of an issue around where the battle was fought, scouting capturing towns, real time peasant revolts, raising building etc, a lot of the things many of us seem to think are missing just now.

Nagao Kichigai

01-04-2001, 14:06

I just found an interesting ad in a computer gaming magazine. It's for a game called "Cossacks -- European Wars" to be designed ("Coming Soon") by Strategy First and published by Infogrames. I went to each respective website, but found nothing on the game. Anyway, the bullet points listed under "Features" in the ad are:

* Huge battles up to 8000 units
* 16 rivaling nations with their own distinct graphics, economics, and technical development
* More than 85 real historical large-scale wars and battles of XVI-XVIII centuries
* A huge technological hierarchy of more than 300 upgrades
* Unlimited variety of tactical and strategic methods of land or sea war against enemies
* Full 3D landscape with real world physics

The screenshots don't look anything like Shogun's battle scenes--they look more like sprites at this point, more like AoK's graphics, though the ad says the game's going to be fully 3D--but the thrust of the game seems clear enough. From the ad:

"Cossacks -- European Wars is a historical real-time strategy based on events during the XVI-XVIII centuries in Europe when nations and states were created and demolished, gold was turned into numerous armies, and never ending wars shed oceans of blood."

Hehe. Can't wait.