View Full Version : Another stupid bug
When you have reinforcements (non-AI) waiting to enter the battle, and the AI withdraws (i.e you hear them going "retreat" and then they walk off the map) sometimes they walk into your reinforcements.
The withdrawing enemy units then get stuck on them (and start killing your reinforcements who don't fight back) and you end up either having to run your army across the entire map to get them or take unecessary losses.
Please take note CA
When you have reinforcements (non-AI) waiting to enter the battle, and the AI withdraws (i.e you hear them going "retreat" and then they walk off the map) sometimes they walk into your reinforcements.
The withdrawing enemy units then get stuck on them (and start killing your reinforcements who don't fight back) and you end up either having to run your army across the entire map to get them or take unecessary losses.
Please take note CA. Did you have ANY kind of QA at all on this game?
Yeah, I seen that too but with routing cavalry units "stampeding" over reinforcements and causing casualties. This happens slightly beyond the red line, so I can't take command of the units and can only watch while causualties mount! A bug or feature?
I've always seen the A.I. (skirmish) route away from these guys. And as far as routers killing you it seems odd as the only routers I've had kill my troops are chariots
Gregoshi
10-13-2004, 20:58
GFX707, a nice bug report sandwiched between two insults: "Another stupid bug" and "Please take note CA. Did you have ANY kind of QA at all on this game?" I don't know why CA should be expected to take note of anything with this kind of tone.
A word to all patrons: constructive and helpful comments and criticisms are needed and welcome by here at the Org and, I'm sure, by CA. However, it seems to have become the norm in this forum that every problem with RTW, whether real or merely perceived, must include insults or condesending remarks. Even the tiniest, insignificant things in the game have garnered insults. I read one post in which a title used in the game was called "stupid". That kind of stuff, whether trivial or not, is unwarranted. The total lack of decency and respect shown to the CA employees at times is quite unsettling. Everyone is clamoring for CA to listen to them. Well, they are. We are fortunate enough to have them visiting our forums and reading our posts. Today I saw three of them online here at the same time. Yet their visits to the Colosseum may become less frequent or disappear all together if they are constantly barraged by abuse. It has happened before with CA's visits to these forums. Even the thickest skinned person will get worn down after awhile. We ask our patrons to be civil to each other when posting here. Let's extend that same courtesy to the CA employees.
BTW there is a thread stickied at the top of this forum for reporting bugs.
Turbo, have you tried selecting the unit with its unit card in the bottom, central panel?
Oh I see, because it's "sandwiched between two insults" it doesn't exist right?
*imagines CA staff member sitting in front of PC crying eyes out at all the nasty words*
Gregoshi
10-13-2004, 21:24
* Imagines GFX707 sitting in front of his PC - red faced, foaming at the mouth and screaming at the top of his lungs over that nasty bug.*
:no:
Colovion
10-13-2004, 21:28
GFX707... do you realize that the devs don't owe you anything?
crazyviking03
10-13-2004, 21:32
Judging from his tone in other posts, I think he may have an attitude problem.
motorhead
10-13-2004, 21:33
look, i found a picture of gfx
http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/assets/Yapper.jpg
Gregoshi
10-13-2004, 21:44
Okay folks, thanks for the support, but let's not gang tackle GFX707. I was not picking on him exclusively. There are quite a few others posting with attitudes too. I just ask everyone to show a little respect for each other. Simple as that. ~:)
Hosakawa Tito
10-13-2004, 21:52
No more Transgressions please. If one wants respect, one must give respect. :bow:
GFX707... do you realize that the devs don't owe you anything?
Oh really? I paid for my copy of their game. So yes, they do owe me something. What a stupid thing to say considering that I am practically paying their wages! The way you talk it's like they gave me it for nothing. WE ARE NOT PLAYING THE DEMO ANYMORE!
We have a right to expect the game to work....you must get stiffed a lot in real life.
You people are so fragile. Sticks and stones....
Gregoshi
10-13-2004, 22:27
No, not "fragile". We just prefer these forum be a place where you can engage in civil discussion in a friendly atmosphere. The kind of dialog you are endorsing GFX707 leads to flame wars - which are not welcomed here. Just look how "informative" this and the last 10 or so posts in the "crappy battle speeches" topics have become. My RTW experience has not been enhanced in either case.
Colovion
10-13-2004, 22:47
Oh really? I paid for my copy of their game. So yes, they do owe me something. What a stupid thing to say considering that I am practically paying their wages! The way you talk it's like they gave me it for nothing. WE ARE NOT PLAYING THE DEMO ANYMORE!
We have a right to expect the game to work....you must get stiffed a lot in real life.
Have you ever played a PC game of this scale and hype that didn't have a patch released for it in the last few years? Probably not. Just like you I also really want a patch to be released for this game soon (and they have said that there will be). You have to come to realize that games out of the box now adays are not going to be examples of perfection. I get annoyed at the same problems as you do and rant about very similar bugs - but I never put the developers down because they didn't have enough time to test the game as fully as we, and they, wanted.
They don't owe you a patch, but it's strongly encouraged by everyone - to get good sales figures, to keep the community on their side and probably also the developers take pride in their work and want it to be perfect. This is a form of entertainment, if you had a Tennis racket break on you what would you do? Probably return it. The developers of the Tennis Racket would look at the problems of customer satisfaction and attempt to release a new model without those problems. If those developers didn't do what the Production company wants the Company would look elsewhere for Developers who could come up with something that satisfies customers better. There are lots of games out there, it's not your right to have a flawless product, it's just in the Developers best interest to create one which satisfies you the most.
I'm sure that CA is working on a patch so I've tried to dumb down my wehing and accept it as it is for now.
LOL! That could be one of several people I know who play this game. Best thing is to report the bugs and try not to be offensive doing it, but even I'm kind of stunned at the number of problems in the released game. There must have been a lot of momentum to release the game instead of test it more thoroughly.
Maybe if the developers of modern games spent less than 95% of development time on graphics and more on the game, we wouldn't have these problems. We wouldn't be playing prettier versions of the same games from 15 years ago either.
and being vocal about bugs is what gets them fixed. I shouldn't have to pussyfoot around and kiss ass in order to do it.
Papewaio
10-13-2004, 23:30
Politeness is free.
What would happen in a bar if you treat the barmaid like that?
'Hey stupid where did you learn to pour a beer like that?'
Or a police officer (your taxes pay for his job).
'Did you ever learn how to use a radar gun or a alcohol tester? The way you use it is stupid.'
That attitude will not get you far in life. Be polite, particularly with someone you are angry with and play the ball not the man.
Turbo, have you tried selecting the unit with its unit card in the bottom, central panel?[/QUOTE]
It doesn't work because the reinforcements are on the map yet and aren't available. There is a dead zone slightly outside the withdrawel area that still allows kills. You may have seen when pursuing routed units that you can continue to inflict losses even though your unit is across the red withdrawel line. You can see the bodies piling up but until your reinforcements cross the red line, you don't get control.
Gregoshi
10-14-2004, 00:32
D'oh! Sorry Turbo. I wasn't thinking properly - as usual.
Oh really? I paid for my copy of their game. So yes, they do owe me something. What a stupid thing to say considering that I am practically paying their wages! The way you talk it's like they gave me it for nothing. WE ARE NOT PLAYING THE DEMO ANYMORE!
We have a right to expect the game to work....you must get stiffed a lot in real life.
Ah, good point. I for one think that the developers have a responsibility to their customers to deliver a working product. At the very least I would like to see just one post from CA just acknowledging these problems and letting people know that a patch will be forthcoming.
Hosakawa Tito
10-14-2004, 00:38
and being vocal about bugs is what gets them fixed. I shouldn't have to pussyfoot around and kiss ass in order to do it.
One doesn't have to be rude and hostile to get their point across. Utilizing good interpersonal relationship skills will gain better results than being insulting. There's a sticky for bug reports, use it. :bow:
GFX707, a nice bug report sandwiched between two insults: "Another stupid bug" and "Please take note CA. Did you have ANY kind of QA at all on this game?" I don't know why CA should be expected to take note of anything with this kind of tone.
A word to all patrons: constructive and helpful comments and criticisms are needed and welcome by here at the Org and, I'm sure, by CA. However, it seems to have become the norm in this forum that every problem with RTW, whether real or merely perceived, must include insults or condesending remarks. Even the tiniest, insignificant things in the game have garnered insults. I read one post in which a title used in the game was called "stupid". That kind of stuff, whether trivial or not, is unwarranted. The total lack of decency and respect shown to the CA employees at times is quite unsettling. Everyone is clamoring for CA to listen to them. Well, they are. We are fortunate enough to have them visiting our forums and reading our posts. Today I saw three of them online here at the same time. Yet their visits to the Colosseum may become less frequent or disappear all together if they are constantly barraged by abuse. It has happened before with CA's visits to these forums. Even the thickest skinned person will get worn down after awhile. We ask our patrons to be civil to each other when posting here. Let's extend that same courtesy to the CA employees.
BTW there is a thread stickied at the top of this forum for reporting bugs.
Turbo, have you tried selecting the unit with its unit card in the bottom, central panel?
Gregoshi, the frustration being expressed on the ORG is being expressed on the official site, and TWCenter. I'll agree that insults are not constructive, but I do not think that the official silent treatment people are getting is helping matters at all. Take a look at the official site, there are tons of posts from people not able to get the game running without crashes. The bug reports are staggering. If you read through the posts, you will NOT see any posts from the developers or Activision making even a token effort to help or address the situation. I am sorry, but I don't think this is the right way to treat people that are your customers.
Papewaio
10-14-2004, 00:51
CA did post here at the Org more often because we were more civil and nice to them then at the Com. I think our standards have dropped and we are seeing the consequences of that with less posts.
Essentially they can either
a) fix the bug or
b) reply to posts about it and get abused.
Which option would you chose?
CA did post here at the Org more often because we were more civil and nice to them then at the Com. I think our standards have dropped and we are seeing the consequences of that with less posts.
Essentially they can either
a) fix the bug or
b) reply to posts about it and get abused.
Which option would you chose?
Have you seen a post from CA anywhere that indicated that they intended to fix any bug or address the SP problems? You know what they say about making assumptions...
Yeah, that's true....you only ever seem to see them in threads about gameplay formulas or congratulations CA, etc. etc.
Maybe they can't comment without going to Activision or something....
Papewaio
10-14-2004, 01:03
Turbo this is a fansite not the official site. They have no obligation to post here over any other fansite out there.
It is the courtesy that we extend patrons and by extention CA patrons that has meant that we get more posts from developers and normally in their personal time.
Boils down that we get CA developers posting because we are to the point, factual and can do that in a mature polite manner.
So I do think we should point out bugs, but like all posts they should be informative not insultive. No point beating them over the head with sticks and hurling holy hand grenades when they can chose to go somewhere else in their freetime.
Colovion
10-14-2004, 01:09
Have you seen a post from CA anywhere that indicated that they intended to fix any bug or address the SP problems? You know what they say about making assumptions...
Yes I have. For one, Jerome came online to state that the Protectorate Bug would be fixed in 1.2.
Yeah, that's true....you only ever seem to see them in threads about gameplay formulas or congratulations CA, etc. etc.
Maybe they can't comment without going to Activision or something....
I hadn't thought about them needing permission from Activision. I recall a post by one of the developers regarding MTW Viking and the automatic death at a certain age. He mentioned they needed Activision's permission before they could release a patch.
Yes I have. For one, Jerome came online to state that the Protectorate Bug would be fixed in 1.2.
I stand correct then.
motorhead
10-14-2004, 03:16
I posted a link in one of the 'blinking trade icon' threads to a post at .com where CA confirmed it would be fixed in the next patch. I think the reason you don't see them come on and tick off every single thing they fix is it would only encourage people to clamor for confirmation that their pet bug will be fixed next, then screeching for constant updates. I'd guess CA has their own prioritized list of critical/moderate/minor bugs, to which they're assigning their time and resources accordingly.
This particular issue (withdrawing AI forces smacking into your off-map reinforcements) is probably a moderate bug. To be honest, i've never even encountered it yet.
edit: and keep in mind that a game of this depth and complexity is simply bound to have bugs. The first patch for MTW contained 10 new features, 51 SP campaign fixes, and 14 MP fixes.
Ah, good point. I for one think that the developers have a responsibility to their customers to deliver a working product. At the very least I would like to see just one post from CA just acknowledging these problems and letting people know that a patch will be forthcoming.
They have, I've seen several posts from CA noting specific issues that will be or have been fixed in the next patch.
Grifman
Yeah, that's true....you only ever seem to see them in threads about gameplay formulas or congratulations CA, etc. etc.
Maybe they can't comment without going to Activision or something....
Maybe they don't care to respond to someone being rude . . .
Grifman
Oh I see, because it's "sandwiched between two insults" it doesn't exist right?
*imagines CA staff member sitting in front of PC crying eyes out at all the nasty words*
No because it's sandwiched between two insults who's going to care?
Grifman
and being vocal about bugs is what gets them fixed. I shouldn't have to pussyfoot around and kiss ass in order to do it.
So how many bugs have you gotten fixed so far?
Grifman
I reported a bug somewhere here and got two replies from Jerome. I've also seen the protectorate comment.
motorhead
10-14-2004, 06:53
I reported a bug somewhere here and got two replies from Jerome. I've also seen the protectorate comment.
but if you had really worked hard and thrown in a bunch of insults, i'm sure you could have gotten 3, maybe 4 replies from him. :smartass2:
No because it's sandwiched between two insults who's going to care?
Grifman
Well hopefully CA is :rolleyes:
Colovion
10-14-2004, 11:07
you're missing the point there - would you eat steak between two loaves of shit?
This "CA don't owe us anything" attitude is stupid. We paid for their product and we have a right to expect that that product works without significant flaws.
I have seen this same stupid "The developers don't owe us anything" crap on hundreds of game message boards for years and it's so infuriatingly stupid and illogical that it makes me want to punch a baby.
We are paying customers. You don't buy a car and then find out that it has a bunch of wiring missing and then go "Oh well the car manufacturer doesn't owe me anything!" and crash placidly into a lamp post, now do you?
I have seen this same stupid "The developers don't owe us anything" crap on hundreds of game message boards for years and it's so infuriatingly stupid and illogical that it makes me want to punch a baby.
I see your point. But tell that to Microsoft. Tell that to the entire software industry. Almost all software I work with - and I do this to earn a living - is delivered late, buggy and broken by companies that, unless you have an ongoing contract with them, don't give a damn. Quite how we fix this short of boycotting all crap software is beyond me; us consumers continue, sheep-like, to buy any old rubbish.
In the games industry it's even worse, because games are produced by developers and released by completely different companies. Good developers lavish care and attention on a game, only to have it forcibly released six months before it's ready with a manual 10% of the size of the one they wanted.
Yes, RTW has annoying bugs. Yes, I am surprised some of them got past QA and playtesting when I was annoyed by them in the first two hours of playing. But being unpleasant to Creative Assembly isn't going to help. In my experience, they care about their games and are good at releasing patches. If you want to raise hell, there's probably some slimy marketing guy at Activision that deserves it.
For what it's worth, I'm sufficiently upset by some of the bugs that I'm probably going back to MTW until a Rome patch comes out. But I'm fairly confident that patched RTW will be a truly great game.
Blimey, we've lurched a bit off-topic haven't we? Sorry.
...Maybe they can't comment without going to Activision or something....
I hadn't thought about them needing permission from Activision. I recall a post by one of the developers regarding MTW Viking and the automatic death at a certain age. He mentioned they needed Activision's permission before they could release a patch.
If I recall correctly a fair chunk of the work done on that patch was in the developers own time (after business hours) in the anticipation that they would get permission. A Patch costs money, wages have to be paid.
I Know the dev's would have wanted to release a perfect game first up,
but they have a schedule to work to, (a project plan)
with hard time cutoff dates,
(just look through the text files in MTW/VI - you'll see notations about cutoff dates all through them)
NOW
we want things fixed, some are critical, some are not
- it is not for me to say which is which.
In Order to get the devs to WANT to fix as much as possible in the time they will have (which WILL BE FINITE!) we need to cooly and calmly list the bugs,
1. what happens,
2. what we expect to happen (but doesn't)
3. what we can do to MAKE them happen (how to replicate the bugs)
Saying "this is stupid" or anything insulting will only get their backs up,
Would you not get offended if your work was harshly criticised?
Yes?
Would you be more willing to investigate the problem if someone plainly stated "dude, i tried to do "this" and "that" happened instead"?
Yes?
PC's crashing or unable to load the game are almost entirely down to:-
1. Generic cheap ass components,
sometimes "non generic" drivers will fix those problems.
2. BAD drivers,
and yes they are out there, Nvidia had a rep for releasing unstable video drivers, they seem to have fixed that but i still tend to use their unified drivers rather than the specific ones for my card.
3. OLD drivers,
it would AMAZE and ASTOUND you just how many people are using outdated drivers, or even the WRONG drivers for their devices!
4. Conflicting Software,
dont tell it dont happen, it happens to me lots when i install some junk shareware or other, I HAVE a persistent problem with my XP machine, one of the old junk pieces of software i regularly uses overwrote some dll's (which it should not have done), and my "program interfaces" are all shot to hell
- i get Win95 interfaces on lots of software, even XP specific software!
SUMMARY
you want bugs fixed? list em in the bug report thread and
BE CALM,
GIVE PRECISE REPORTS,
EXPLAIN HOW TO REPLICATE THE BUG (so they can "see" it on their PC's)
Papewaio
10-14-2004, 17:35
This "CA don't owe us anything" attitude is stupid. We paid for their product and we have a right to expect that that product works without significant flaws.
I have seen this same stupid "The developers don't owe us anything" crap on hundreds of game message boards for years and it's so infuriatingly stupid and illogical that it makes me want to punch a baby.
We are paying customers. You don't buy a car and then find out that it has a bunch of wiring missing and then go "Oh well the car manufacturer doesn't owe me anything!" and crash placidly into a lamp post, now do you?
A reminder that we have ten year olds on this board so stop the swearing and violent attitude.
The bugs are not safety issues. You are screeching like someone who got the wrong shade of paint.
'Oh myyy gawddddd I can't believe that is an apricot pastel, I spefically said to the intewior designa that I wonted a strawbewwy pastel with hints of goldenwod.'
If you have an issue it would be better to state it clearly and stop the theatrics. The steam only clouds up the issue and hinders resolution. Always work towards the answer don't agitate over the fairness or unfairness as that will not make resolution happen any quicker.
So if you really want to resolve the issues quicker then state the bug, how it occured, rate of frequency and leave the snide comments out.
Show me where I swore.
My metaphor was perfectly acceptable, the bug I describe is not cosmetic, but a problem of the game mechanics.
Papewaio
10-14-2004, 18:04
violence:
infuriatingly stupid and illogical that it makes me want to punch a baby
swearing :
crap it is a swearword in the context that this site has under thirteens and more importantly the style/vitriole in which you use it.
Don't post with an attitude that you would not want your mum, grandma to see.
Oh please. There's more violence and swearing in the saturday morning cartoons that every 10 year old watches. Not to mention that we are here discussing a game that REVOLVES around violence.
Barkhorn1x
10-14-2004, 21:54
Oh please. There's more violence and swearing in the saturday morning cartoons that every 10 year old watches. Not to mention that we are here discussing a game that REVOLVES around violence.
I have 11 year olds - and he has a point Papawoi. You pretty much over reacted here.
I have 11 year olds - and he has a point Papawoi. You pretty much over reacted here.
i don't think so
within the guidelines of this forum a level two warning is warranted,
further transgressions would incur a level four (ban)
Further I can assure that in some parts of the world saturday morning cartoons do NOT allow swearing and violence.
This forum is designed to fall into PG13 category,
and to conform to the lowest level of violence and language accpetable under that category,
NO swearing
NO threats
NO stalking
have i made myself perfectly clear?
i have no problems using the moderation tools available to this board if you are having any trouble understanding me
Barocca
Colovion
10-15-2004, 03:08
About the whole "if anyone, blame Activision" ideas - I would have to disagree, to a point.
They were the people who gave CA an extra YEAR in developement to make the game Awesome with almost everything implimented that they could. Heck, there's still things that they only got around to partially impliment but put in anyway because they know the mod community is so great. These things are the code which someone at TWC found for a Blood Mod - code which just needs to be "unlocked" to have it work. In my mind this is an amazing thing on CA's side as it makes it that the game can have blood, but it also makes it so that it needs to be modded in and won't stunt their sales by giving the game a Mature rating. There are also things like the Reflections mod which unlocks yet another piece of code which CA didn't impliment. It seems this one was left out because it doesn't work with some graphics cards, but when it does - WOW (http://montinola.org/pics/rome/shine.jpg) CA wanted this game to be amazing and it shows - I think we can cut them some slack right now. I've been pissed off from a number of bugs and oversights - but overall I can sidestep them and pretend they dont' exist for the moment; it isn't easy, but it's possible.
My point is that CA and Activision deffinately know that the game has problems and are well on their way to fixing them. All games and software now adays has patches and whatnot to make it run perfectly (and even then it isn't so). I agree that it's frusterating when a game loses some things as it evolves but hopefully we can adapt to those things or mod them to our likings.
This "CA don't owe us anything" attitude is stupid. We paid for their product and we have a right to expect that that product works without significant flaws.
Who said they don't owe us anything? Sure we ought to point out bugs to them and they ought to fix them. We're just saying you don't have to stupidly rude about it! Talk about illogical - get a clue!
Grifman
Gregoshi
10-15-2004, 04:58
Interesting information about the blood and reflections hidden code, Colovion. As cool as it is, I'd beware of opening Pandora's Box... ~;)
One thing to consider regarding "buggy" software today: go back to your hard drive and look at the folder sizes of some 4-5 year old games in which you did a full install and compare this to the full install of games like RTW. There is a dramatic increase in the size of the programs, graphics, etc. The power of hardware keeps increasing by leaps and bounds every year, but I don't think software development has changed too much in that same time. The more complex you make a program, the more chance there is to introduce bugs and the more difficult it is to test every possible situation. If you doubt the point about testing, just look at many of the bug report threads. For just about every bug, there always seems to be one or more people saying they have never encountered that bug. Maybe that was also the case with the tester. That, at least, is my optimistic take on the subject.
Duke John
10-15-2004, 09:43
Try making a mod and make it as perfect as possible. Make it public and then bet for your Org membership that no one will find a single bug and that you have satisfied everybody.
That CA is making a great game doesn't mean that they can only deliver a perfect product. They do strive for it, but they are only humans. If your mailman delivers you a letter for your neighbour, will you then storm out and calling him a piece of ****? I really hope not or else you might better go live in a hidden valley until you discover the meaning of living in a society.
Besides you could have downloaded the demo before you bought the game. You would have then discovered how the voice acting was. If it really was such a problem then you can only blame yourself for buying a product that you didn't like in the first case.
i don't think so
within the guidelines of this forum a level two warning is warranted,
further transgressions would incur a level four (ban)
Further I can assure that in some parts of the world saturday morning cartoons do NOT allow swearing and violence.
This forum is designed to fall into PG13 category,
and to conform to the lowest level of violence and language accpetable under that category,
NO swearing
NO threats
NO stalking
have i made myself perfectly clear?
i have no problems using the moderation tools available to this board if you are having any trouble understanding me
Barocca
You can say "cr*p" in a PG13. Saturday morning cartoons like Batman are extremely violent (and a lot include words including and worse than cr*p) but just because it's good guy versus bad guy most people (no offense but especially americans) don't recognise this as violence. Besides, as I said before, RTW revolves exclusively around killing and violence, and if a 10 year old can experience that then why not this? And should they even be here?
I am not trying to stir up trouble but I just think you mods are overreacting here.
Who said they don't owe us anything?
GFX707... do you realize that the devs don't owe you anything?
This person said it Grifman. On page 1 of this very thread.
motorhead
10-15-2004, 13:25
Who said they don't owe us anything?
GFX707... do you realize that the devs don't owe you anything?
This person said it Grifman. On page 1 of this very thread.
it was a rhetorical question... :jester:
No it wasn't. Of course *now* the original asker will say it was. What a waste of time.
GFX707, you can't use the word "C**p" on tv here in Australia during pg13 viewing time, and seeing we use lowest common denominator we'll go with that one.
(thanks for not swearing, appreciated)
B.
GFX707, isn't this all a little rediculous? We're now on a 2 page thread for the sole reason that you can't post a bug without putting the word 'Stupid' infront of it. Theres no need man.
CA did a great job, Rome is one of the best games I've ever played. You can't go running round saying 'They owe me this!' or 'I demand they fix that!'. I can understand your frustrated, hell aren't we all sometimes, when that really important battle doesn't go our way because of a bug in the software. But your talking like they owe you your whole $50 all over again which simply isn't true.
I think to be this angry, you must really like this game. I think for the bugs to upset you as much as they obviously have, you must be tearing your hair out and selling your shoes just to get the chance for one more sweet drop of that oh-so-addictive gameplay that Rome can, and does, deliver. And If this is true, and I'm fairly sure it is, then CA don't really owe you anything. They've delivered you a game that is unlike any other game. A game that makes you think, and involves you, and starts to take up disturbingly large amounts of your free time, and when those bugs come along, and wake you from your day dream, you snap and become enraged because you love this game so.
So maybe next time you want to bring something to CA's attention, instead of writing down the first insult that comes to mind, take a second to think about how much fun you had because of those guys, then speak.
Anselm
SpencerH
10-15-2004, 14:42
If the thread originator had called the developers at CA 'stupid' then I would agree with the mods here. He didnt, he called a bug 'stupid'. I interpret that comment to mean 'a bug that should have been observed and fixed before the game was shipped'. If I bought a car with the typical, overpriced, factory-installed radio in it and the radio didnt work because there was no power harness designed for the car, I would call that 'stupid' too. Some bugs are acceptable, others are not. Too many of the bugs with this and many other games should have been fixed prior to shipment. Companies like Activision and Infogreed take the heat for pushing these product out the door before the developers are finished/happy (whatever), and I understand the contractual obligations to provide a product on time, but I'd like to know how it benefits the developers or distributors to ship products that are not ready? Where is the commitment to providing a quality product to the consumer?
Thank you SpencerH. That was exactly what I meant.
Jugurtha
10-15-2004, 16:18
Do unto others as you would have done unto you. That includes accepting that there may be aspects of a game that you don't agree with. It also includes realising that there may be some bugs in a piece of software this complicated.
Consumer rights have been used as an example of CA failling. When you buy a book bassed on the description on the cover and it doesn't turn out to be the one you expected do you demand redress?
As for the violence and swearing thing, as has been stated, in some areas of the world the standards you describe are not acceptible, this is an international forum, try and respect that. In any event, just because it happens doesn't mean it's right - personal responsability.
I wonder if the ratio of froth and rage is related to the kind of game RTW is and the kind of people who really get into it. An ancient history war game of this complexity (not a simulator) is bound to attract a lot of people who feel disenfranchised by the run of the mill games. MAybe they aren't used to civil social interaction? Maybe they just think this is their one opportunity to have the game of their fantasies. CA are the poor saps that have take the flak when some detail doesn't align with these boors' preconceptions.
State your problem politely. If and when CA show absolutely no inclination to address any of the bugs start jumping up and down. Till then....
Type the word cr*p (I can't believe I have to censor it) into the search engine and you will see plenty of people using it.
motorhead
10-16-2004, 05:42
Type the word cr*p (I can't believe I have to censor it) into the search engine and you will see plenty of people using it.
sigh...you're missing the whole point. it's not just about "plenty of people using it", it's about discussing things in a non-flaming, non-trash talking environment, so we can focus our energy on the issues. I can plug in f*** into google and it returns +22million hits. Does that justify using f*** on the daily news? would you tell your mother, teacher or boss to "F*** off!" and then explain "well, plenty of people are using it"?
Papewaio
10-16-2004, 05:50
Okay for the purposes of teaching I am going to swear.
Now since I grew up on a farm, worked in the mines and am an Australian swearing is about as natural as sand on a beach. But I do minimise my swearing in the boards when I am not ranting.
It is not just the swearing it is the attitude and context in which it is used.
Bloody... swear word or adjective.
My bandage is bloody the wound is still healing. Adjective
Bloody hell that was stupid. Swearing.
Essentially would you use the word and attitude in front of/towards your Grandmother, child, preacher or boss. If not then don't use it at the Org.
motorhead
10-16-2004, 07:39
Not to beat this thread to death (too late :whip: ), but to counter the "being vocal about bugs is what gets them fixed" argument, here's a quote from a developer about user comments:
Reasoned comments get through the signal-to-noise filter; unreasoned - and unreasonable - rants tend to be treated as the work of monkey typists.
...and...
...we tend to share the details of the wittier/funnier/more trenchant/well argued posts too.
So flinging your muck about the cage doesn't attract developer notice, they flip the page and move on.
Flogging a dead horse,
Motorhead
King Azzole
10-16-2004, 07:53
Are you guys serious? You cant say cr@p here? Cr@p is like a normal word its not even a curse. You guys are wierd... But I guess thats how the internet works. The melting pot of different cultures. For instance, In cuban to say Cuca its like a name, and chocha is the females genitals (in vulgar form). But if you go to Central America, cuca means the females genitals in vulgar form and Chocha is a name for someone! Cultures...
Colovion
10-16-2004, 09:27
yeah I didn't think cr...p was a swear either
sigh...you're missing the whole point. it's not just about "plenty of people using it", it's about discussing things in a non-flaming, non-trash talking environment, so we can focus our energy on the issues. I can plug in f*** into google and it returns +22million hits. Does that justify using f*** on the daily news? would you tell your mother, teacher or boss to "F*** off!" and then explain "well, plenty of people are using it"?
That was possibly the worst "parallel" in history. There is no rule against using the word "f***" (sigh) on the internet but there is for TV. Lots of people are using the word cr*p here and I am the only one to have got a warning for it.
Please do not try to make any more parallels ever again.
Not to beat this thread to death (too late :whip: ), but to counter the "being vocal about bugs is what gets them fixed" argument, here's a quote from a developer about user comments:
...and...
So flinging your muck about the cage doesn't attract developer notice, they flip the page and move on.
Flogging a dead horse,
Motorhead
So they'll just ignore the bug in their game completely if theres a little bit of attitude around it?
I am not allowed to be displeased after I paid £40 for a game and found a defect in it that spoiled my enjoyment of it? and if I am then no one will pay attention to my bug report?
back to the car wiring/lamppost thing again.
motorhead
10-16-2004, 14:50
@gfx - my deepest apologies. it's so obvious that your "type c*** in a search engine...everyone is using it" rationale is clearly not related to my counter argument that because you can find lots of c*** being used on a search engine, it's no justification. yep, clear as a bell :dizzy2: (btw, that's sarcasm. wouldn't want you to get it mixed up, seeing how much trouble rhetorical questions give you)
So they'll just ignore the bug in their game completely if theres a little bit of attitude around it?
- hmmm..that's not what i read, but how you see it. "Reasoned comments get through the signal-to-noise filter" - i.e. braying goats bleating and screaming about a bug gets ignored. If something is a true bug, they know a calm, rational, non-wailing infant, will clearly explain it. Hence, when they see noise (i.e. what you call "being vocal") they tune it out.
anyway, this thread is getting rather redundant, and you obviously just don't get it. continue your pointless rants at me, you'll "win" since i'm just going to flip by this thread. ~:wave:
@gfx - my deepest apologies. it's so obvious that your "type c*** in a search engine...everyone is using it" rationale is clearly not related to my counter argument that because you can find lots of c*** being used on a search engine, it's no justification. yep, clear as a bell :dizzy2: (btw, that's sarcasm. wouldn't want you to get it mixed up, seeing how much trouble rhetorical questions give you)
- hmmm..that's not what i read, but how you see it. "Reasoned comments get through the signal-to-noise filter" - i.e. braying goats bleating and screaming about a bug gets ignored. If something is a true bug, they know a calm, rational, non-wailing infant, will clearly explain it. Hence, when they see noise (i.e. what you call "being vocal") they tune it out.
anyway, this thread is getting rather redundant, and you obviously just don't get it. continue your pointless rants at me, you'll "win" since i'm just going to flip by this thread. ~:wave:
You just said "if you use attitude they completely ignore it". Learn to read!
If something has "attitude" around it it's not a bug? You are not very bright. Your parallel was stupid. There is no rule against swearing on the internet, but there is against swearing on the news. That is why no one swears on the news. YET if you type in cr*p into the search here you will find lots and lots of people using it without reprimands and yet it is only me that gets a warning!
L e a r n t o r e a d!
...yet it is only me that gets a warning!
not true, we have warned dozens, perhaps hundreds of people about it,
if i recall correctly before Pape became a moderator he had his share of warnings too,
Even I got a Warning in my Early days here at the Org,
(i have also had warnings and even thread closures and post deletions at other forums i frequent in the past)
the staff here cannot be everywhere at once,
we cannot read every post in every thread in every forum here at the Org,
we also are players of the game, have real live's, job's, school etc etc,
we try and thats the best we can do.
So we ask everyone to help us moderate these boards by moderating themselves.
I wont get into an argument of "he does it, why can't I?"
because "He" should not be doing it,
and when i see "Him" doing it i will say something about it.
The safest course of action is to not do it. Simple and easy.
King Azzole
10-16-2004, 22:03
Can someone please lock or delete this thread. Its ruining the image I had of this forum.
:help:
sunsmountain
10-17-2004, 04:15
here here. After being finally allowed to post in other places than the entrance hall i admire your efforts to educate 1 person who has no intention to learn.
There are only a few real bugs in the game, while the main gripe i have so far is things that were promised yet not implemented (destroying buildings by fire arrows, horses refusing a charge, etc.). But you can't really complain about that, can you? I mean if not implementing means Rome is stable, then all is well. And Rome is more stable than Medieval.
Sometimes units behave according to their individual AI, or group AI, even if you don't want them to. Like principes/hastati throwing their pilums they don't have any more, stopping their charge and taking away all their momentum. Or units that have been grouped performing path finding as a group, instead of as individual units. Or, to remain with this peculiar topic, retreating units colliding with your reinforcements and killing them...
I hope these can be patched.
One last time for all the uptight goody two shoes's:
1) I called the bug stupid and not CA.
2) This is only the internet. Don't be so thin skinned. Sticks and stones
It's not a point about being thin-skinned.
It's more :
a) You are CONSTANTLY throwing insults at CA.
b) You don't report the bug in a civilized manner.
If you're unable to talk like an educated, polite person, it's not the other who are too sensitive. It's YOU who have an attitude problem.
Show me where I talk like an uneducated person.
Show me these "constant" "insults". For a bug like this to slip through QA suggests that the QA is kind of rubbish. What's wrong with saying that? You all act like after paying for this game I should just accept any bugs that came with it and pray every night to the CA that can do no wrong in the hope that maybe they'll descend from heaven and fix my bug....and if they do it's the hugest favour on earth and I should give them my kidneys or something.
REMEMBER. This is a product that we are paying for. This is not something that someone made for us out of the kindness of their own hearts, and they are all making money off of us.
SpencerH
10-17-2004, 13:57
Can someone please lock or delete this thread. Its ruining the image I had of this forum.
:help:
I cant tell if thats sarcasm or not; didnt a CA employee call you a thief in the thread about a no cd patch?
Jango Fett
10-17-2004, 15:05
take a chill pill, even i enjoy a good flame now and then, cr@p bucket!
King Azzole
10-17-2004, 16:43
I cant tell if thats sarcasm or not; didnt a CA employee call you a thief in the thread about a no cd patch?
No. Whats your point? This thread needs to be locked I dont understand why its allowed to continue. Either way I wont be returning so if you care to start a flame with me take it to PM. I am not 13.
SpencerH
10-17-2004, 21:14
No. Whats your point? This thread needs to be locked I dont understand why its allowed to continue. Either way I wont be returning so if you care to start a flame with me take it to PM. I am not 13.
Unfortunately, the thread I was refering to seems to have been axed. Since you say it wasnt you, then I guess it wasnt you, and I apologize for that.
Since I did think it was you, however, I found it rather ironic that someone who bought RTW with his brother (and wanted to load it and use it on two computers), who was called a thief by a CA employee, to be ******** about another word for poo-poo (hopefully that word wont ruin any images you have).
Again, since it wasnt you and I'm not trying to flame anyone, I apologize for my error. I'm glad you're not 13.
You get branded a thief for that these days? I remember the days when me and my friends used to take stuff like Wing Commander 2 around to each others houses and share all the stuff we bought. I bet at least CA employee has done that too. It's a TAD harsh to call someone a thief for that....I bought RTW from ebay....does that make me a thief?
I cant tell if thats sarcasm or not; didnt a CA employee call you a thief in the thread about a no cd patch?
No, that was me.
Because I said I always DL a game before buying it. Wonder how I can be a thief when I end up buying the thing full retail price, but well... I don't blame him. It's hard not to become emotional when it comes to your creation and your way to make a living, especially when both are the same.
Colovion
10-18-2004, 03:04
It makes sense that you would be dubbed a theif for that.
However, I got into playing Age of Kings by a hacked version which I downloaded and got the Expansion pack for illegally as well. At the time I was a lot younger so I didn't really think twice about it. The game was awesome - nothing was missing besides the music track and at the time I didn't care. I played that game for countless hours and I'm possitive that if I didn't have those hours of play with that game I wouldn't be here today. After about a year or so playing the game I wanted to support Ensemble Studios for putting forth such a great game and went and bought the game and XP - mainly just because I'd never played it with the music track - and cause Age of Mythology was due out in six months. It's strange - I started by illegally downloading that game and ended up with such respect for the developer that I bought AoM soley because I respected the developers work; very similar to Creative Assembly now.
Oh yeah - don't download games, kids - it's wrong.
Papewaio
10-18-2004, 04:36
You get branded a thief for that these days? I remember the days when me and my friends used to take stuff like Wing Commander 2 around to each others houses and share all the stuff we bought. I bet at least CA employee has done that too. It's a TAD harsh to call someone a thief for that....I bought RTW from ebay....does that make me a thief?
If the license was for a single machine at a time and you loaded the game onto multiple machines without deleting it off previous machines then you would be breaching your licensing agreement.
Now you wonder why a lot of game design companies have gone and why games are costing so much more. It is only partially true to blame it on piracy. It is the large companies that produce the games (not design them) and the selling points that are making the money from the markups. The design companies are not getting a large enough slice of the retail price. Markups are for the explicit cost of advertising, production and retail space. They use piracy as an implicit cost and excuse for the markups.
Jugurtha
10-18-2004, 10:16
Show me where I talk like an uneducated person.
Show me these "constant" "insults". For a bug like this to slip through QA suggests that the QA is kind of rubbish. What's wrong with saying that? You all act like after paying for this game I should just accept any bugs that came with it and pray every night to the CA that can do no wrong in the hope that maybe they'll descend from heaven and fix my bug....and if they do it's the hugest favour on earth and I should give them my kidneys or something.
REMEMBER. This is a product that we are paying for. This is not something that someone made for us out of the kindness of their own hearts, and they are all making money off of us.
If you feel so strongy that your consumer rights have been infringed why don't you do something about it? Instead of whingeing on about things here? This isn't even the official web site.
If you take the time you'd find the following info for questions, bugs and complaints. When you get a reply, let us know and we'll all be grateful. Not that I have seen what you describe happen.
I've put the UK details in because I assumed that's where you are from - used the £ symbol somewhere.
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PS installing WC2 on all your mates computers is theft if you don't delete first. It isn't alright just because all your mates do it. It won't be till you and "all" those people who do use their democratic right to change the legislation. Not that it would anyway since it is so self evidently wrong to do that in the first place.
It makes sense that you would be dubbed a theif for that.
I can understand why I would be dubbed a thief for that, but I just say it's false ^^
A thief don't pay for what he steal.
I do (and I don't steal, I copy. Which is a form of infringement on copyright, but not a "theft" in the strict meaning, as nobody actually lose something during the copy, they just don't gain something).
It's strange - I started by illegally downloading that game and ended up with such respect for the developer that I bought AoM soley because I respected the developers work; very similar to Creative Assembly now.
Same here (except I wasn't too thrilled by AoM).
Oh yeah - don't download games, kids - it's wrong.
No. What's wrong is to not buy a game you have liked.
Reward the ones who deserve it.
Now you wonder why a lot of game design companies have gone and why games are costing so much more.
Well, actually, the games aren't costing more. They even cost less than before (remember the first CD games, totally unpiratables, which costed nearly half more than the ones today, while the price of the support was the same ?).
What's fun, is that you can see the prices of games following more or less exactly the level of piracy : the more there is piracy, the cheaper the games are. Somehow revealing :)
And if companies go away, it's mainly because of the investment necessary to make a game. Some years ago, it was barely some hundred of thousands bucks. Even some tens of thousands sometimes.
Now, it's several millions at the bare least.
It is only partially true to blame it on piracy. It is the large companies that produce the games (not design them) and the selling points that are making the money from the markups. The design companies are not getting a large enough slice of the retail price. Markups are for the explicit cost of advertising, production and retail space. They use piracy as an implicit cost and excuse for the markups.
That's very, very true.
Jugurtha
10-18-2004, 11:25
What's fun, is that you can see the prices of games following more or less exactly the level of piracy : the more there is piracy, the cheaper the games are. Somehow revealing :)
.
Yes it's hilarious. How long do you think it took to develop RTW? 3-4 years? How many people worked on it for all that time and how much do you think they get paid? How much do you reckon all the other resources allocated to this game over the life of the project cost?
Those evil marketing types (who always seem to be able to fool everyone else but not us) get involved to spread the game to as many people who wouldn't be likely to pick up a game like RTW. If it wasn't for them persuading a whole lot of people to buy this game we, who spod-like wanted this game, would never have got it. The development costs are simply too high.
If the price drops in paralell to piracy this is simply a reflection of normal market demand and supply being skewed by theft. They have to try and cove their costs.
I did my Honours dissertation on software copyright theft about ten years ago. The rates of piracy in Western Europe were about 40-50% of all software. In Russia and the Far East you are (were?) looking at 95% of all software was pirated. Is it any wonder that Microsoft Office cost so much?
My brother keeps getting ripped copies of stuff, to be honest I'm not interested. I'd rather pay for a game like RTW.
Why the useless rant ?
I DO buy every game I like. I consider that good creation MUST be rewarded.
But I fail to see the link with marketing garbage or the hypocrisy and lies of the publishers ("games are expensive because we're ruined by pirates *cries* We don't want to, but we're forced to recoup our losses due to evil, evil pirates", but funnily enough, the prices racks up when there is no piracy, and decrease when there is...).
Jugurtha
10-18-2004, 14:12
Why the useless rant ?
I DO buy every game I like. I consider that good creation MUST be rewarded.
But I fail to see the link with marketing garbage or the hypocrisy and lies of the publishers ("games are expensive because we're ruined by pirates *cries* We don't want to, but we're forced to recoup our losses due to evil, evil pirates", but funnily enough, the prices racks up when there is no piracy, and decrease when there is...).
I'm glad that we both agree on that then.
Exactly how are they supposed to get their money back with piracy rates that high? Of course the price will go down on a product like RTW, unlike Office or Windows it only has a very short shelf life and has to make as much money as possible as fast as possible. If there is loads of piracy they need to try and compete with that supply of free games, so prices go down.
You don't quite get the point about the marketing do you? If it wasn't for them the only people playing this game would be history nerds like us.
The game would have significantly worse production values and be a lot worse to play. You've got to get a wide audience playing the game for it to get the kind of resources RTW has had. It's also another cost to be recouped.
Exactly how are they supposed to get their money back with piracy rates that high? Of course the price will go down on a product like RTW, unlike Office or Windows it only has a very short shelf life and has to make as much money as possible as fast as possible. If there is loads of piracy they need to try and compete with that supply of free games, so prices go down.
If the publishers can lower their prices and sell a bit less games, and still make a load of benefits (I'm thinking particularly to EA and their crappy sport-license games), then it simply means they were selling overpriced when there was less piracy, and that they take a larger part of the pie they should (ripping off the actual designers of the game, who are the one who have the real credit of the creation...).
Don't expect me to give them (the publishers) the moral higher ground or to pity them, then.
You don't quite get the point about the marketing do you? If it wasn't for them the only people playing this game would be history nerds like us.
The game would have significantly worse production values and be a lot worse to play. You've got to get a wide audience playing the game for it to get the kind of resources RTW has had. It's also another cost to be recouped.
Oh, yes, I see the point of the marketing, sadly.
I know how marketing is necessary on an economic point of view. But more than anything, I see how marketing and "large audience" ruined the video game world.
And I don't buy the "the game would be worse to play". I have started to play on Amiga, Commodore 64, CPC and NES, in a time where a computer was something unknown to half the people, and when we barely had one guy in the classroom having one at home. The games of the time were shorter, ugly and overall lacked anything a big budget can get, but many of them had LOADS AND LOADS of inventivity, creativity and originality. They weren't in any way "worse to play". And there were DOZENS of them each months, because you did not required to have millions dollars to make one.
Look now. Jewels such as RTW are exceptionnal. Even good games, fit for being bought, appear only once every so many months. Sometimes only one or two a year. I remember a time where I was drooling on something like ten or fifteen game EACH MONTH, that made me dream. Now, I barely raise an eyebrow once a month, and I drool for a game once a year.
Marketting and large audience, simply raised the budget level to a point where games need to be sold in hundred of thousands to fund themselves, kicking out all but the biggest publishers, and transformed a mainly passion-based microcosm, in a money-driven macrocosm.
No, thank you. I know that's how economics work, but I certainly won't thank it for that.
The ony REAL threat from piracy is stealing potential customers, i.e if someone was going to buy the game but instead chose to download it or buy a pirate version.
I am sure that not that many people fall into that category. Most of the people who get pirate versions are people who a) wouldn't have paid full price anyway or b) wouldn't have been interested otherwise
There are many cases of people not being interested in a game until they downloaded the pirate version and then bought the retail version because it got them into it! The publishers and fatcats use this stuff as excuses and for propaganda. As for me I like to buy the games that I feel are worth supporting.
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