Europa Barbarorum

[PSYCHO V]

Oh don't worry, I for one am itching to get into the Iberians and Celtiberians..the Briton..the Germans...! ~:cheers:

Ok guys a poll. Minor thing but better we sort it out early. We were considering touching up the faces and thought it best we run it by you guys. Here are four examples. Please let us know which one you prefer. Just consider the faces, nothing else.

A) The Originals (https://usera.imagecave.com/PSYCHO/A.jpg )

B) The Light Mod (https://usera.imagecave.com/PSYCHO/B.jpg)

C) The Medium Mod (https://usera.imagecave.com/PSYCHO/C.jpg)

D) The Heavy Mod (https://usera.imagecave.com/PSYCHO/D.jpg)


Thanks

* Also who is ready to start coding in unit features and stats?

[Dead Moroz]

Ok guys a poll. Minor thing but better we sort it out early. We were considering touching up the faces and thought it best we run it by you guys. Here are four examples. Please let us know which one you prefer. Just consider the faces, nothing else.
Medium. But with red hair.

[[cF]HanBaal]

BTW, welcome to the ORG and to the EB thread. Wouldn't you be interested in joining our effort? :wink2:


Happy to be here :sunny:


About joining your effort I'm afraid that I can't do much to help apart from helping with info since I'm a n00b in modding. The only things I can mod in RTW are the existing units' stats and change their place in the construction tiers... you must have guessed which I have modded right :sunny: I improved both the "Iberian Inf" and the "Iberian Scutari" stats and also the Iberian cavs too a bit (I would like for you guys to turn the Scutariis' primary weapon to a spear btw as I believe that was the correct way though I'm not sure if they thrown it before contact).

What I especially REALLY would like for you guys to change is the Balearic Slingers stats as I did: I increased their range to outdo every ancient archer....200 in range contrary to 170 (though I haven't changed the stats much of the n00b slingers, only equaling them to n00b archers' range). You may say that is ridiculous but in fact I'm being conservative! The problem with the sling is that you need to be a pro to use it right.... the balearics trained from childhood. Once a pro you could outdo ANY ancient archer and that is why, for example, both Hannibal and Julius Caesar preferred them. Here's a VERY interesting and informative piece I wrote some time ago:



ARCHERS vs SLINGERS:


"Hannibal's light troops were in a different class from those of the Romans. They were very highly trained and were capable of inflicting much damage on the enemy. Of particular importance were the Balearic slingers. These were organized into two corps, each a thousand strong. They were armed with three types of sling for employment at different ranges. Such was their accuracy and their volume of fire that they were deemed more useful than archers"

from: Cannae 216 BC: Hannibal Smashes Rome's Army" (Osprey Campaign Series # 36)

---

"To get good range with a sling takes practice. With one of my slings, I might sling a stone a bit bigger than a golf ball only seventy yards or so. Ancient slingers with much more skill than me could get a stone well over twice this distance. There are peasant boys in Africa who use slings to herd sheep and goats. They sit in the shade of a tree, and if they see an animal straying, they sling a stone in front of it to scare it back into the flock. To gain this sort of skill, I am told it is necessary to start young. Good slingers in antiquity were in demand. Particularly famed for their skill with slings were the men of the Balearic Isles (islands in the Mediterranean including Majorca, Ibiza and Minorca). These slingers practised their skill from a very early age, their original purpose being to hunt and to scare pests."


"Both Roman and Greek writers say that the sling could out-range the bow. The advantage of range is repeatedly stressed. This could, it seems to me, be because the sling had a greater effective range, arrows losing their power to air-resistance after a while, and falling out of control onto their target, whereas a sling stone might build up a more dangerous speed just from falling. The effective range of slings seems to be in excess of 360 yards. Also assyrian reliefs show slingers attacking cities from further away than the archers. Perhaps this is because the archers were used to shoot straight at defenders on the walls, while slingers dropped stones into the city, or perhaps it is just another clue to the greater range of slings.

The Roman military historian Vegetius (ca 400 BC) recommends a practising range of 180 m for archers. This says something for the armourers of the day, considering that even a modern bow and arrow are not acceptably accurate beyond a range of about 200 m. Yet even in King David’s time slingshots were accurate at ranges of 250 m]. Xenophon reports a range of 400 m

Writers tell of the terrible wounds that slings would inflict, especially [toxic hardly compressed lead] bullets. The Romans developed a special pair of tongs designed for getting bullets out of people. Arrows, unless barbed and deep in the victim, are easier to extract.

The power of slings is famous. When iron plate-armoured Spaniards went into South America against the Aztecs, only the slings of the Aztecs were feared. The stone-tipped arrows would glance off or shatter against the armour, but the sling stones would damage the Spaniards by sheer smashing force."


Adding to these effectiveness advantages, comes the economical and pratical ones, especially during military campaigns:

"The sling is very easy and cheap to make. Most in the past were made of leather, some being rush or twisted cord. The amount of material needed is minimal, and anyone who knows what a sling should look like could make one in a few minutes. Bows take far more materials, and rarer materials too. Bows take more maintenance, can break when you fall over, take far more time and skill to make, and are more cumbersome. A slinger could carry half a dozen spare slings easily, while an archer would worry about damage to his one bow.

A sling might be carried without ammunition, with the thought that some could be found when needed. Bows take very specialist ammunition which needs to be well-made in advance, and maintained. An archer would want to recover as many of his arrows as possible after use. Arrows are expensive, and can warp in damp weather. Arrows are long things need to be carried in an awkward quiver which flops about as the carrier runs. A pouch of sling stones can be a neat bundle, a more manageable load.

It is well known how bows are affected by weather. Battles have hinged on whether one side, with superior archers, has been able to make use of its bows effectively. Even quite light wind will blow arrows off course badly, and rain will spoil bow strings, and drag arrows down from the air. Slings, while still adversely affected by wind and rain, suffer not nearly so much from bad weather. This may explain why armies with archers often valued having slingers as well.

Slingers are generally more mobile than archers. They find it easier to shoot on the move and have the great advantage of needing only one hand to shoot, which allows them to use a shield in their free hand to protect themselves. It is possible to load a sling one handed, and I find that the best way to do this is to kneel down quickly and use the ground as a third hand: put the sling down letting go of one string, get a stone, put the stone in the sling, then pick up the sling again by the loose string and stand up again. While doing this, you would want to have a shield for protection, since you have to take your eye off the enemy. One can sling while kneeling, but the shot will not be as powerful or accurate. Archers in ancient armies often wore armour; they needed it more. While some archers did sometimes carry shields, these could not be used for parrying while shooting. All this may explain while slingers were often deployed as skirmishers on the field rather than in huge formations.

Arrows can be seen raining down upon an enemy, and even when they are flying on a fairly flat trajectory, are visible to an enemy expecting them. Sling stones are much more difficult to see in flight, especially from a distance. It is also more difficult to judge which way they are going, as they are seen as a dot rather than a line. Sling bullets, which are cast lead shot, are especially difficult to see."


http://www.staff.ncl.ac.uk/nikolas.lloyd/weapons/anisling.gif
Contrary to popular belief as well as in RTW, the sling is not whirled above the head several times, building up speed, before the stone is released. A sling might be whirled a couple of times slowly if the slinger had time, to get the feel of the weight of the stone, and while sizing up the target, but it is one big movement which sends the stone on its way.

from: http://www.staff.ncl.ac.uk/nikolas.lloyd/weapons/sling.html

Concluding, the slingers stoped being used due to the very high amount of training it required (many say only starting young), and we all know how more and more important it became with time to quickly train new HIGH number of recruits. For example, when the muskets appeared the longbows were still far more effective both in range and accuracy... however the armies started to be filled with ranks of muskets only. This goes out to show that as well as the musket replaced the bows due to amount of training required... so did the same hapened with the sling.

As I said in the begining, the Balearic Slingers MUST be ubberly improved in range (so to surpass even the best archers' range) and also in attack a bit (to express their high accuracy) maintaining their costs low as is justified above. The only 'if' needed to reflect the difficulty in geting a lot of these especialised units is already in the game... one can't train Balearic Slingers and only hire them as mercs ~:)

[chemchok]

OK, here's some feedback on the mod. [Playing as the Julli on N/N]

I like the lower movement speed, primarily b/c I used far less pausing during battles than I did during vanilla RTW. The defense bonus wasn't noticeable, but at the same time, it seemed to have helped slow down the battles somewhat by making infantry melees longer. Kills in ship battles were somewhat larger, but I haven't had enough sea battles to really see how the changes will play out.

Now for some specific notes...

- Massilia/Transalpine Gaul: The intital campaign setup is w/ Voconti rebels holding the town. I though the Voconti were a Gallic tribe, but the game has them set up as a Greek rebel faction, with militia hoplites and a temple to Athena.
- Don't know if this is related to mod or not - I had a unit of velite gladiators (given by the senate as a mission reward) survive a battle with only 4 soldiers left and not dissapear when I returned to the campaign map.
- A Julli spy starts off in Ariminum instead of Arretium.
- I noticed a group of Sicilian rebels outside Messana; there was one unit of Triari and one unit of Principes, but both had the "peasant" unit card (looked like triari and princ. on the battle map).
- Same deal as above with archers and macedonian cavalry in Syracuse
- Same deal - 2 units of Falxmen in Campus Getae
- Same deal - 3 scythian horse archers/3 archer warbands @ Campus Alanni
- Same deal - 2 cataphract units @ Campus Sakae
- Armenian diplomat starts near Kotais
- 1 Parthian bireme unit still starts near Campus Sakae
- Macedon was destroyed by the summer of 247 BC (w/o any of my own intervention). They either need more resources to begin the game or more territory; the fact that they start out with two provinces isolated from each other seems to be their biggest problem.

Oh, and for fellow testers, entering the console and typing "toggle_fow" makes the entire map visible. This will probably be useful later on when we're more concerned with faction balancing in regards to the initial unit/province setup.

[khelvan]

HanBaal']
What I especially REALLY would like for you guys to change is the Balearic Slingers stats as I did: I increased their range to outdo every ancient archer....200 in range contrary to 170 (though I haven't changed the stats much of the n00b slingers, only equaling them to n00b archers' range). You may say that is ridiculous but in fact I'm being conservative! The problem with the sling is that you need to be a pro to use it right.... the balearics trained from childhood. Once a pro you could outdo ANY ancient archer and that is why, for example, both Hannibal and Julius Caesar preferred them. Here's a VERY interesting and informative piece I wrote some time ago:

I agree on the Balearic Slingers, in addition I feel their attack should be stronger than any other slinger as they used a weight (if Roman historians can be believed) that was twice that of other slingers.


HanBaal']"Unfortunately, using your source, this would place the adoption of the pila well past Livy (c. 240 BC)." - khelvan

You repeat several times to defend your argument Livy's quotes suposing he wrote around 240BC..... Livy was born in 64 BC and died in 12 AD! He based lot of his writings in Polybius so how could he be prior to him?! Unless you're talking of a different Livy. So I totally am with Aymar that, just like the gladius was adopted from the Iberian falcata... so was the pilum from the Iberian soliferra.


- The above quote was intended to show that should we assume the legion adopted the pila after one of the Punic wars that it would not be available until at least around 240 BC, not the period that Livy writes about.

- Perhaps I misstate my point, or I did not write clearly, but I never intended to say Livy -lived- c. 340 BC, I intended to say that he wrote about the legion c. 340 BC. We are talking about Titus Livius, Roman historian, are we not?

- Peter Connolly, respected historian and author of "Greece and Rome at War," states quite clearly that "we" (being the body of historians) know that the pila was in use c. 340 BC and thus he assumes that where Livy neglected to mention the armament of the early republican hastati and principes, we should assume they have pila. So it seems Connolly disagrees with you.

Please note that this thread is intended to be a place to discuss the technical aspects of putting together the mod. Long posts with lots of historical information are more than welcome in EB, and we appreciate your input, but I would ask that we move that sort of discussion over to the other thread so we don't confuse things (at least until we have a better forum structure to work with):

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=33417

Cheers,

-khel

[khelvan]

* Also who is ready to start coding in unit features and stats?
I can code it in, but I would prefer the experts in the faction say where they should fall between units in the different stat categories.

[[cF]HanBaal]

I agree on the Balearic Slingers, in addition I feel their attack should be stronger than any other slinger as they used a weight (if Roman historians can be believed) that was twice that of other slingers.

Here's sth about it:
"Missiles from different eras and different countries showed considerable difference in weight and size. For example, missiles found in the near East varied from 13 g, a mere pebble, to 185 g – a fair sized stone. Balearic missiles were sometimes 63 mm in diameter – about the size of a tennis ball."
from: http://www.africanarcher.com/survivor/art_sling.htm

can you imagine a rain of hardly compressed lead 'bullets', of the size of tennis balls flying in your direction ~:eek: :dizzy2:

---


- Perhaps I misstate my point, or I did not write clearly, but I never intended to say Livy -lived- c. 340 BC, I intended to say that he wrote about the legion c. 340 BC.

Yup, I had a lil doubt that you might have intended in that way though I got the strong impression that you were refering as the other way. My mistake then.



- Peter Connolly, respected historian and author of "Greece and Rome at War," states quite clearly that "we" (being the body of historians) know that the pila was in use c. 340 BC and thus he assumes that where Livy neglected to mention the armament of the early republican hastati and principes, we should assume they have pila. So it seems Connolly disagrees with you.

well I don't know how can someone, who was a self called mainly military historian like Livy, could 'forget' to mention the use of a deadly throwing javelin like the pila in his own country's army description... so yes I 'disagree' with Connoly's "assumings". And, btw, a bit off the subject but I found the overnationalistic Livy of little to no credibility ESPECIALLY when talking of sth directly related to rome or rome's enemies ~;)

---


Please note that this thread is intended to be a place to discuss the technical aspects of putting together the mod. Long posts with lots of historical information are more than welcome in EB, and we appreciate your input, but I would ask that we move that sort of discussion over to the other thread

Yes I know, and I tried to do what said. My rebuttal to your quote regarding Livy was even from that other thread and was logical that I tried to do it there first, but there's a problem... I can't post in the 'colosseum'. Don't know quite how things work in this forum but I think I was not 'qualified' to post in that area :embarassed:

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

I greatly changed Eastern European part of RTW's map.
:shocked: :stunned: Awesome, Dead Moroz!!! In so little time? :surprised:


1. New provinces:
- Caledosia(4) (not sure)
Isn't it Caledonia? Land of the Caledonians?

It would be great to add this one, because The_Emperor's Historical research, mentions that the main inspiration for Woad Warriors were the Caldeonian's depiction in those days. He said it was best to rename Woad Warriors as Caledonian Warband.


Let's discuss it!
OK, but your post needs a lot of investigation to comment on...

I'll comment in the next post.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Oh don't worry, I for one am itching to get into the Iberians and Celtiberians..the Briton..the Germans...! ~:cheers:

Ok guys a poll. Minor thing but better we sort it out early. We were considering touching up the faces and thought it best we run it by you guys. Here are four examples. Please let us know which one you prefer. Just consider the faces, nothing else.

A) The Originals (https://usera.imagecave.com/PSYCHO/A.jpg )

B) The Light Mod (https://usera.imagecave.com/PSYCHO/B.jpg)

C) The Medium Mod (https://usera.imagecave.com/PSYCHO/C.jpg)

D) The Heavy Mod (https://usera.imagecave.com/PSYCHO/D.jpg)


Thanks

* Also who is ready to start coding in unit features and stats?
The medium.

As for the shields and pants (I know it's not supposed to be commented), any of the non-originals looks great!! :thumbsup:

[Steppe Merc]

I liked the mediums face... though I wish we could get the units to have true long hair tather than braids... I think CA hates long hair... :embarassed:

[khelvan]

HanBaal']
- Peter Connolly, respected historian and author of "Greece and Rome at War," states quite clearly that "we" (being the body of historians) know that the pila was in use c. 340 BC and thus he assumes that where Livy neglected to mention the armament of the early republican hastati and principes, we should assume they have pila. So it seems Connolly disagrees with you.
well I don't know how can someone, who was a self called mainly military historian like Livy, could 'forget' to mention the use of a deadly throwing javelin like the pila in his own country's army description... so yes I 'disagree' with Connoly's "assumings". And, btw, a bit off the subject but I found the overnationalistic Livy of little to no credibility ESPECIALLY when talking of sth directly related to rome or rome's enemies ~;)
I do not think it is safe to assume that Livy "forgot" to mention the pila's use. As I am sure you are well aware his works cover many centuries, and the area Connolly draws from in describing the 4th Century legion is mainly Livy's description of the Latin War of 340-338. It seems that in this case Livy did not list every single detail of the equipment of the legion, only bits and pieces. It isn't as if he mentioned one of the heavy infantry weapons and we (or Connolly) are assuming he forgot another. He didn't describe the weapon(s) of the hastati or principes at all. Connolly states that the pila was in use at this time, and unless we have a historical source stating what, exactly, the 4th Century hastati and principes DID wield, for the purposes of this mod I see no reason NOT to assume, as Connolly has done, that the hastati and principes were using the pila.

The assumption may be wrong, but simply stating that you feel the reasoning behind the assumption is faulty without providing the information that describes the alternative isn't helpful, as we're trying to model the unit (and the heavy infantry wouldn't be very useful without weapons! ~D).



HanBaal']Yes I know, and I tried to do what said. My rebuttal to your quote regarding Livy was even from that other thread and was logical that I tried to do it there first, but there's a problem... I can't post in the 'colosseum'. Don't know quite how things work in this forum but I think I was not 'qualified' to post in that area :embarassed:
After so many discussions, they tend to blend together, so forgive me if I don't know which thread you're drawing quotes from days to weeks ago from ;)

I never had to go through a posting restriction, so I tend to forget that new members these days have one. I apologize.

-khel

Edit: By the way, if you want to join the mod team and contribute but don't feel you have the necessary skill, feel free to take over the role of trying to make the Roman factions (in starting position, units, skin & textures, unit model, names, family tree, and so on) more historically accurate. You don't have to do any editting yourself, just take on the role of making sure the units are done as well as possible. If you follow the threads you will see much discussion has happened already, and I took a leadership role in that only because I had the motivation to do it. I would be happy simply inputting new data in should someone who knows more than I do (that isn't hard) want to take over responsibility for it.

Note to everyone: Don't feel that because you've never played around in the text files or with Photoshop or 3D Studios you can't contribute. There are a few of us who are willing to do most or all of that sort of work, right now more than anything what is lacking are individuals who are -active- and taking on responsibility for making sure each faction looks and feels historically accurate, that the units and starting position fit into the game as historically as possible, and in general coordinating the work that is happening for the faction.

I know Aymar is working behind the scenes to make sure the right people are in place, so contact him if you feel you can add that sort of contribution.

[Stormy]

~:eek: Nice map Dead Moroz and excellent model/skin PSYCHO V


PSYCHO V I like the medium for its pant and shield.

Dead Moroz, you perhaps can add 3 eastern provinces like caucasian Iberia, Aghbania and Characene ? I had found a good map reference site about Caucasian - Parthain provinces but I lost it :embarassed: :embarassed:


Hmmm, Melita province maybe should be renamed Malat ( In Phoenician ) and it's city can be named Mdina.

The centre of power in the Phoenician empire shifted from the main land in present Lebanon to the colony of Carthage in what is nowadays known as Tunisia. Against the Carthaginians, the Romans fought several battles, the so called Punic Wars. During the second Punic war, in 218 BC, Malta fell into the hands of the Romans. The Romans called the island Melita , probably a corruption of the Phoenician Malat . The present name Malta is derived from it. The capital was also called Melita and was situated at the hilltop of the present city of Mdina. But Melita was larger than Mdina and included parts of Rabat. In Rabat there are still some traces of the Roman presence in Malta, like the mosaic floors of a Roman house from the 1st century AD. Furthermore there are some catacombs in Rabat, subterranean burial complexes that were in use during the Roman and early christian period.

More on Malat/Melita here (http://home.wanadoo.nl/bezver/romans.html)

[Stormy]

A super High Five to all for their superb work!

http://www.wwt.uk.com/UploadedImages/476_High%205.jpg

~:)

[S.O.F]

Junior member here (not certain why you folks do that here but I suppose the number of youthful types that refuse to use the search function are best kept out of other parts of the boards) who is more then willing to help.

I see some folks have keyed into Warhammer Ancient Battles, I play the game, sadly rarely even less then games of FB, and quite right it is very good a cover the ranges of armies in some depth in a form much easier to work from then pouring through Osprey series books for information on units.

However I must say for the most part the Barbarian end of RTW is by far not lacking as much as the abomanable Egypt they put in (where are the Hittites and Sea Peoples to fight them is what I wondered :furious3:) but folks need to start somewhere and the Barbarian types seem to be quite popular for folks to fix.

So if there is anything in particular from the historical end such as unit types and the like question about WAB lists for the Various Barabarian groups or anything you folks need help with I'm more then willing to contribute so just ask.

Probably sort through all these posts in this thread and give some more specific coments when I have the time. I really hope this expands to cover both "Civilized" and Barabarian types for realism in the end.

Soldier of Fortune

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

HanBaal']About joining your effort I'm afraid that I can't do much to help apart from helping with info since I'm a n00b in modding. The only things I can mod in RTW are the existing units' stats and change their place in the construction tiers... you must have guessed which I have modded right :sunny: I improved both the "Iberian Inf" and the "Iberian Scutari" stats and also the Iberian cavs too a bit (I would like for you guys to turn the Scutariis' primary weapon to a spear btw as I believe that was the correct way though I'm not sure if they thrown it before contact).
Yes, it is possible and was one of the alterations I had planned.

As for the throwing spear, I'm afraid you're wrong. They used a combo (spear+solifera), but didn't throw the spear.



HanBaal']What I especially REALLY would like for you guys to change is the Balearic Slingers stats as I did: I increased their range to outdo every ancient archer....200 in range contrary to 170 (though I haven't changed the stats much of the n00b slingers, only equaling them to n00b archers' range). You may say that is ridiculous but in fact I'm being conservative! The problem with the sling is that you need to be a pro to use it right.... the balearics trained from childhood. Once a pro you could outdo ANY ancient archer and that is why, for example, both Hannibal and Julius Caesar preferred them. Here's a VERY interesting and informative piece I wrote some time ago:


ARCHERS vs SLINGERS:
Excellent article!!! I had read it somewhere. I haven't tried slingers in RTW yet, so I wasn't aware that they had lesser range. That, of course, is ludicrous. But I think you have been too conservative in range. I propose:

-Balearic slingers - 300m
-Rodean slingers - 260m
-Other slingers - 220m

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Update on the work list:


-campaign map/province/city changes:

khelvan
Oleander Ardens
Dead Moroz
...
...


-faction name changes/new faction implementation:

Silver Rusher
...
...
...


-unit changes/new unit implementation/3d and 2d graphics:

I've taken the liberty of subdividing the team in faction groups, according to your interests.
Please PM me if you don't agree with your assignement.

Gauls and Britons:
Vercingetorix
PSYCHO V
reconspy

Germanics:
Stefan the Berserker
SaFe
...

Iberians:
Aymar de Bois Mauri
...

Carthage:
Aymar de Bois Mauri
...

Dacians and Thracians:
TigerVX
Dead Moroz
The samnite
...

Scythians/Sarmatians/Parthians:
Dead Moroz
...
...

Other factions (PM me to coordinate):
...
...
...
...
...
...


-battle system changes:

Steppe Merc
Aymar de Bois Mauri
...
...


-naval battle changes:

khelvan
Colovion
...
...


-economic/population model changes:

khelvan
Oleander Ardens
...
...


-Coordination of the EB Historical thread:

Teutonic Knight
Aymar de Bois Mauri
...
...


-Faction and unit Descriptions:

Gauls and Britons:
PSYCHO V
Ranika

Germanics:
Stefan the Berserker
SaFe
...

Iberians:
Aymar de Bois Mauri
...

Carthage:
Aymar de Bois Mauri
...

Aetolian League (former Greek Cities):
chemchok
...

Dacians and Thracians:
Stormy
...

Scythians/Sarmatians/Parthians:
Steppe Merc
...

Other factions (PM me to coordinate):
Stormy
chemchok
Ranika
Steppe Merc
ick_of_pick
...
...
...


-Gameplay testing and debugging:

Colovion
Ranika
Steppe Merc
Monk
Stormy
chemchok
PSYCHO V
Hagbard la Suede
Salazar
Mr. Juice
Dead Moroz
Sol Invictus
Sethik


Post me if you have any doubts about specific assignements within the same work related area



Updated 02:30 - 10/26/04

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Junior member here (not certain why you folks do that here but I suppose the number of youthful types that refuse to use the search function are best kept out of other parts of the boards) who is more then willing to help.
It's bit of a behavioural control system. A trial period to make people polite.


I see some folks have keyed into Warhammer Ancient Battles, I play the game, sadly rarely even less then games of FB, and quite right it is very good a cover the ranges of armies in some depth in a form much easier to work from then pouring through Osprey series books for information on units.

However I must say for the most part the Barbarian end of RTW is by far not lacking as much as the abomanable Egypt they put in (where are the Hittites and Sea Peoples to fight them is what I wondered :furious3:) but folks need to start somewhere and the Barbarian types seem to be quite popular for folks to fix.
I had the same unpleasent impression. I was... ~:pissed:

It started with the "barbarians", then it grew to every faction...


So if there is anything in particular from the historical end such as unit types and the like question about WAB lists for the Various Barabarian groups or anything you folks need help with I'm more then willing to contribute so just ask.
Thanks for offering your help. Much apreciated.

Mostly what we're trying to find is correct Historical information about unit types, unit look, weaponery, flags, etc... that can be related to what is in RTW, regarding each specific faction in the particular span of the game (270BC-14AD). But I don't know what info can be gathered at the WAB.

I might be forgetting something, as my fellow colaborators will soon remind me... :smile:



Probably sort through all these posts in this thread and give some more specific coments when I have the time. I really hope this expands to cover both "Civilized" and Barabarian types for realism in the end.

Soldier of Fortune
Good. It's interesting reading.

BTW, it has expanded... :wink:

[PSYCHO V]

The medium.

As for the shields and pants (I know it's not supposed to be commented), any of the non-originals looks great!! :thumbsup:

Thanks for the feedback guys. Seems medium is the go. If your all happy with that, we'll see if we can add the same detail to all our barb skins.


Dead Moroz, I'd also like to see another rebel 'province' around Gergovia in Gaul if possible. We'll have some unit goodies for the area ~D

khelvan, I'll have some stuff for you shortly.

[Stormy]

Ancient Caucasia region map

Colchis, Mesopotamia, Assyria, Armenia, Albania, Pontos, Iberia, Media
http://www.geocities.com/master8885/Maps/cama_1840.jpg

Armenia, Iberia, Media, Assyria map by Woodward & Peele #1 (http://www.geocities.com/master8885/Maps/1729.jpg)



Armenia, Iberia, Media, Assyria map by Woodward & Peele #2 (http://www.geocities.com/master8885/Maps/1729_2.jpg)


~:handball:

[S.O.F]

Thanks for offering your help. Much apreciated.

Mostly what we're trying to find is correct Historical information about unit types, unit look, weaponery, flags, etc... that can be related to what is in RTW, regarding each specific faction in the particular span of the game (270BC-14AD). But I don't know what info can be gathered at the WAB.

I might be forgetting something, as my fellow colaborators will soon remind me... :smile:


Well WAB covers Republican and Early Imperial Rome, Carthage, Sucessor, and Parthians okay. Barbarians have a generic list since it works as a good base to cover all the Republican and Early Imperial period so it is a bit vague and leaves a bit for interpretation for folks to have Dacians or British Celts out of the same list.

The Punic Wars period has sadly been neglected so far when it comes to the more fleshed out full list books such as have been done for the Late Roman period, Biblical, Medieval, and Viking Northern Europe periods.

I'd really like to see both a diversification of troop types, like making Fanatic Warriors more fitting for each Barbarian group, along with more diverse number of provinces on the map, the Italian penisula could do with a few more provinces in the start such as Reggio at the tip of Bruttium being seperate as it would be a latin colony rather then lumped in with the less imporant Corton which had little care for Roman rule or say the Boii Gauls who's homelands are currently lumped in with Ventia, and a better representation of Roman rule in Italy as of 270 when the campaign starts and none of the this Patrician Houses crap, plays nicer for the later civil wars of the mid 1st century BC and the rise of Imperial Rome rather then for the Mid-Republican period.

Really be nice to have a Punic Veterans regiment for Carthage as well representing seasoned African troops wearing captured Roman mail......just rambling now I suppose.

[DeadRunner]

aymar a idea about elephants, the elephants when "mortal wounded" they rampage in the entiry field atacking everthing ,they only stop when they died our the man that take care of him insert a wood stick in is brain.

Just a idea

[PSYCHO V]

Ok Dead Moroz, here's my recommendations for Gaul.

The original map:

https://usera.imagecave.com/PSYCHO/GAULMAP.jpg

Recommended map:

https://usera.imagecave.com/PSYCHO/GAULMAPII.jpg

Samarobriva (Belgae) I'd make this a rebel town with heaps of troops

Nemetacum (Belgae, Atrebates) I'd make this a rebel town with a good force

I'd start the Germans with lots of troops just across the Rhine.

Vesontia (Belgae in North, Sequani etc in South) I'd make a rebel faction or new faction with the Arverni (Gergovia) and the Allobroges (Vienna)

Gergovia home of the Arverni and Vercingetrix. I'd make a rebel town or include in a new faction as previously stated. I'd give them a strong army.

Vienna home of the Allobroges, allies of the Arverni and Sequani. Same as above suggestion. I'd give them a fairly strong army.

Avaricum the ancient capital of Gaul and home to the Bituriges. Was the most impressive Oppida in all of Gaul with Large stone walls, paved streets etc If we can makeup some nice stone Oppida, I propose we give the Gauls 'stone' walls here.

Bibracte another large Oppida of stone and home to the Aedui

Darioritum captial of the Ventii

Tolosa (modern Toulouse) captial of the Volcae



Basically these changes will present the player with a more historical scenario. Playing Gaul, you will face the historic reality of having to contend with winning the civil war before the Germans and Romans over run you. Playing against Gaul, you will have a more interesting time conquering the various areas and those different troop types ~;)

[Meneldil]

This map is way better, as it would allow you to split the gauls into possibly 2 or more factions.
Also, revomming Alesia is a great idea, since
1 - It was only a fortified village, and by no way a capital
2 - From recent researches, Alesia was in west/south-west part of current France.

[The Wizard]

Personally, I think we should go with hill forts/strongholds with the barbarian factions, since these peoples didn't have any real cities (excluding the Iberians and the Celtiberians, the latter to an extent). These could then be expanded like in MTW and STW.

Of course, this little idea of mine might've been proposed before, since I haven't read most of the EB thread after RTW's release.

Also, I think we should extend the map a bit to the east if that's possible, like the older versions of the map we saw in screenshots before the release, since there isn't much changing to the provinces of Elymais and Media. However, in 270 BC the Parthians under their Arsacid kings hardly controlled any of Persia (in fact, they were still part of the Dahae confederation out on the Central Asian steppes, but I'm willing to take that liberty); solely a region along the southeasternmost coast of the Caspian Sea. I believe its Persian name was Gurgan. It was a region of soft climates, almost an oasis of temperate weather, flanked by mountains on the west, south and east, and on the north by desert.

The early Arsacid Parthians (or a better term for the Parthians at the time: the Parni) controlled the old satrapy of Gurgan and a part of the satrapy of Parthia, which lay to the east and north. For greater accuracy regarding the starting position of the Parthians (and probably a more interesting game with them), I'd say it would be worthwhile to extend the map a bit to the east to control the west half of Central Asia, and the satrapies of Gurgan, Parthia, Persis, Media, and Elymais (Susiana).



~Wiz

[Steppe Merc]

I agree that evauntauly we should extend the map, but mabye we should save that for a bit later.
Also, would Alexander era pics of Macedonian armies be helpful? As of now the Macedonians are pretty darn wrong, and I know at least some Alexanderian influence continued for a while...

[Octavius]

Are there any estimates of a release date/time frame for this mod?

[Colovion]

"Not Soon"

[Duke John]

I saw that you got a subforum in the Total War Series - Hosted Mod section. Do you want me to move this thread to that forum?

[khelvan]

Yes, please do. If we could leave a pointer to that area that would be awesome.

[Duke John]

Hum... I think something went wrong with creating the forum. Or did you ask for a passworded subforum within the EB category? It's not possible to post in there and the pasworded subforum is nowhere to be seen. I am asked to give a password when moving the thread to the EB subforum.

I assume that you asked Tosa, but what did you ask? Do you want a subforum within a EB category and do you want it to be passworded?

[khelvan]

Aymar worked out the details. My requests to him were a place where we could lay out work in different threads, and a place where only EB members would have access. I'm not sure if those two requests ended up as one in the same, so I'll let you, Tosa, and Aymar figure out the structure.

Thanks!

[Dead Moroz]

I'm working hard on editing the map. And found some problems. The more you change the map, the more is the chance to have some casual bugs. Because changing of some area of map will cause the game to make small changes throughout all area of map. So small graphical bugs may appear just "out of nowhere". They may disappear after next regeneration of map... or may not.
I'll try to make all necessary changes and expand the map to north (to include Caledonia) and east (to enlarge Parthia). But it will take long time. And I'm not sure in good result.

For now I changed borders of many African provinces (made them more historically accurate and landscape oriented) and created new provinces - Bosporus (Crimea), Corsica, Rhaetia (west Alps) and Marmarica (between Cyrenaica and Egypt). Planning to create Melita (I'm sure it must have Latin name, not Phoenician), Iberia and Albania (both in Caucasus).

@PSYCHO V: Could you give me "real" map of this region?

@The Wizard and Steppe Merc: Do you have detailed maps of Parthia?

[PSYCHO V]

PSYCHO V, Could you give me "real" map of this region?

What sort of info are you after? Are you going to completely re-do the topography? That would be fantastic..but a hell of a job! I thought we could just add some towns and realign borders. Though no doubt that's a pain in the butt too.

[Oleander Ardens]

Sorry for the late replays, I had a great deal of things to do...

khelvan : I will try to get as much info about the economy in RTW as I can, so that we can tweak it as we wish. I will keep track of my new Ma. campaign... The timeframe and the province-changes need definatly a good discussion...


Dead Moroz : Very nice change, the Regnum Bosbororum would be a nice additon, even just as rebels. I will discuss more with you soon via PM

Aymar : I will definatly have to focus on the strat. map and the economy, but I will help with the historical research and the balancing of the missile weapons. I already made some rough map of the various missile weapons/bows and tried to model them accuratly....

Cheers
OA

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Ancient Caucasia region map

Colchis, Mesopotamia, Assyria, Armenia, Albania, Pontos, Iberia, Media

Armenia, Iberia, Media, Assyria map by Woodward & Peele #1 (http://www.geocities.com/master8885/Maps/1729.jpg)

Armenia, Iberia, Media, Assyria map by Woodward & Peele #2 (http://www.geocities.com/master8885/Maps/1729_2.jpg)


~:handball:
Beautifull maps, Stormy. Just what we need. :thumbsup:

BTW, I didn't know there was another region called Iberia?!!! :surprised:

[Dead Moroz]

BTW, I didn't know there was another region called Iberia?!!! :surprised:
So, you didn't know that inhabitants of Pyrenees and our "Russian" Osetians are relatives? ~;)

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

aymar a idea about elephants, the elephants when "mortal wounded" they rampage in the entiry field atacking everthing ,they only stop when they died our the man that take care of him insert a wood stick in is brain.

Just a idea
I believe that something like that is already implemented in the game. I might be wrong though... :thinking:

[Dead Moroz]

What sort of info are you after? Are you going to completely re-do the topography? That would be fantastic..but a hell of a job! I thought we could just add some towns and realign borders. Though no doubt that's a pain in the butt too.
I mean the map of ancient Gallic regions, to see it all "from first hands".
About topography. Think I will keep original. Because as I said before great changes cause bugs on the map.

What about Celtiberia? Will it be as it is now?

@Stormy: Thanks for maps and ideas! ~:wave:

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Ok Dead Moroz, here's my recommendations for Gaul.

Samarobriva (Belgae) I'd make this a rebel town with heaps of troops

Nemetacum (Belgae, Atrebates) I'd make this a rebel town with a good force

I'd start the Germans with lots of troops just across the Rhine.

Vesontia (Belgae in North, Sequani etc in South) I'd make a rebel faction or new faction with the Arverni (Gergovia) and the Allobroges (Vienna)

Gergovia home of the Arverni and Vercingetrix. I'd make a rebel town or include in a new faction as previously stated. I'd give them a strong army.

Vienna home of the Allobroges, allies of the Arverni and Sequani. Same as above suggestion. I'd give them a fairly strong army.

Avaricum the ancient capital of Gaul and home to the Bituriges. Was the most impressive Oppida in all of Gaul with Large stone walls, paved streets etc If we can makeup some nice stone Oppida, I propose we give the Gauls 'stone' walls here.

Bibracte another large Oppida of stone and home to the Aedui

Darioritum captial of the Ventii

Tolosa (modern Toulouse) captial of the Volcae
Good descriptions. You're quite right about the oppidum in Bibactre and Avaricum. We'll just have to model some Celtic-type stone walls (those built with structural wood squares).

BTW, it's Vercingetorix or Vercingetrix? :thinking:



Basically these changes will present the player with a more historical scenario. Playing Gaul, you will face the historic reality of having to contend with winning the civil war before the Germans and Romans over run you. Playing against Gaul, you will have a more interesting time conquering the various areas and those different troop types ~;)
Several Gaullish factions? How many did you had in mind?

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

I agree that evauntauly we should extend the map, but mabye we should save that for a bit later.
Also, would Alexander era pics of Macedonian armies be helpful? As of now the Macedonians are pretty darn wrong, and I know at least some Alexanderian influence continued for a while...
Yes, they would be...

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Hum... I think something went wrong with creating the forum. Or did you ask for a passworded subforum within the EB category? It's not possible to post in there and the pasworded subforum is nowhere to be seen. I am asked to give a password when moving the thread to the EB subforum.

I assume that you asked Tosa, but what did you ask? Do you want a subforum within a EB category and do you want it to be passworded?

Aymar worked out the details. My requests to him were a place where we could lay out work in different threads, and a place where only EB members would have access. I'm not sure if those two requests ended up as one in the same, so I'll let you, Tosa, and Aymar figure out the structure.

Thanks!
Well, I really think I was quite explicit in my requests for Tosa Inu, so I believe he is on top of everything. The problem might be related to my lack of experience with these things. Let's hope we are back on track soon.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

I'm working hard on editing the map. And found some problems. The more you change the map, the more is the chance to have some casual bugs. Because changing of some area of map will cause the game to make small changes throughout all area of map. So small graphical bugs may appear just "out of nowhere". They may disappear after next regeneration of map... or may not.
I'll try to make all necessary changes and expand the map to north (to include Caledonia) and east (to enlarge Parthia). But it will take long time. And I'm not sure in good result.
Take your time. The most important aspect will be stability. Don't rush it. Be certain of the things that are running well and of the possible things that are failling to work.


For now I changed borders of many African provinces (made them more historically accurate and landscape oriented) and created new provinces - Bosporus (Crimea), Corsica, Rhaetia (west Alps) and Marmarica (between Cyrenaica and Egypt). Planning to create Melita (I'm sure it must have Latin name, not Phoenician), Iberia and Albania (both in Caucasus).
Great. Keep going. :thumbsup:

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

So, you didn't know that inhabitants of Pyrenees and our "Russian" Osetians are relatives? ~;)
LOL :laugh4:

Try justifying that with migratory research... :wink:

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Sorry for the late replays, I had a great deal of things to do...
No problem.


khelvan : I will try to get as much info about the economy in RTW as I can, so that we can tweak it as we wish. I will keep track of my new Ma. campaign... The timeframe and the province-changes need definatly a good discussion...
There was a rumor (Dead Moroz) that you were working on a 300BC map. I guess it was just a joke... :smile:


Aymar : I will definatly have to focus on the strat. map and the economy, but I will help with the historical research and the balancing of the missile weapons. I already made some rough map of the various missile weapons/bows and tried to model them accuratly...
Great. I'll update the list. :thumbsup:

As for the new projectiles, I've analysed the files and I'm pretty sure we can had multiple ones. I even think we will be able (with a lot more work) to had exotic projectiles like throwing axes (new projectile graphics and animation though).

[S.O.F]

Now with this new sub-forum to play with are there going to be individual topic threads popping up about particular factions and the like? I jotted down some notes on early Germans and Iberians yesterday and if specific threads for such things are going to start up I thought it best to save them for there rather then posting it here.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Now with this new sub-forum to play with are there going to be individual topic threads popping up about particular factions and the like? I jotted down some notes on early Germans and Iberians yesterday and if specific threads for such things are going to start up I thought it best to save them for there rather then posting it here.
Yes. In about five minutes. I'll get on it.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Update on the work list:


-Campaign map/Provinces/City changes:

khelvan
Oleander Ardens
Dead Moroz
...
...


-Economic/Population model changes:

khelvan
Oleander Ardens
...
...


-Faction name changes/New faction implementation:

Silver Rusher
...
...
...


-Menu Flags/ Battle Flags (2d graphics):

Aymar de Bois Mauri
...


-Unit changes/New unit implementation/3d and 2d unit graphics:

Gauls and Britons:
Vercingetorix
PSYCHO V
reconspy

Germanics:
Stefan the Berserker
SaFe
...

Iberians:
Aymar de Bois Mauri
...

Carthage:
Aymar de Bois Mauri
...

Dacians and Thracians:
Dead Moroz
The samnite
...

Scythians/Sarmatians/Parthians:
Dead Moroz
...
...

Other factions (PM me to coordinate):
...
...
...
...
...
...


-Battle system changes/Unit testing:

Steppe Merc
Aymar de Bois Mauri
...
...


-Naval battle changes:

khelvan
Colovion
...
...


-Coordination of the EB Historical thread:

Teutonic Knight
Aymar de Bois Mauri
...
...


-Factions and units - info and descriptions :

Gauls and Britons:
PSYCHO V
Ranika

Germanics:
Stefan the Berserker
SaFe
...

Iberians:
Aymar de Bois Mauri
...

Carthage:
Aymar de Bois Mauri
...

Aetolian League (former Greek Cities):
chemchok
...

Dacians and Thracians:
Stormy
...

Scythians/Sarmatians/Parthians:
Steppe Merc
Dead Moroz
...

Other factions (PM me to coordinate):
Stormy
chemchok
Ranika
Steppe Merc
ick_of_pick
...
...
...


-Gameplay testing and debugging:

Colovion
Ranika
Steppe Merc
Monk
Stormy
chemchok
PSYCHO V
Hagbard la Suede
Salazar
Mr. Juice
Dead Moroz
Sol Invictus
Sethik


Post me if you have any doubts about specific assignements within the same work related area



Updated 18:11 - 10/27/04

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

The new threads, concerning the specific workgroups, are up. Please post specific info in the relevant thread.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

This was posted by Dead Moroz at the EB thread at the Colosseum:


How about to move this thread into "Hosted mods" section and rename it into something like "Historical research"?
So, what do you ALL think about it? Answers, please...

[khelvan]

I like having everything centralized. Since this area can be accessed by everyone I think it is a good idea to have the historical research here.

We should have some discussion about what things we should keep here and what should be moved to the passworded forum. Let's give everyone access there and I will start that discussion.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

I like having everything centralized. Since this area can be accessed by everyone I think it is a good idea to have the historical research here.

We should have some discussion about what things we should keep here and what should be moved to the passworded forum. Let's give everyone access there and I will start that discussion.
I'll send the info to the relevant people.

[Sethik]

I have a few questions about the building times in the game. I think they are too long. I can understand walls, government, or religious buildings taking years to be built, but why on Earth would a blacksmith take a year and a half to build? Same goes for some military buildings (especially Barbarians). How long would it actually take a barracks to be built? Historically speaking, of course.

Whoops, didn't see the fourm change. I'll move this post into the city thread.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Update on the work list:


-Campaign map/Provinces/City changes:

khelvan
Oleander Ardens
Dead Moroz
...


-Economic/Population model changes:

khelvan
Oleander Ardens
...
...


-Faction name changes/New faction implementation:

Silver Rusher
...
...
...


-Menu Flags/ Battle Flags (2d graphics):

Aymar de Bois Mauri
...


-Unit changes/New unit implementation/3d and 2d unit graphics:

Gauls and Britons:
Vercingetorix
PSYCHO V
reconspy

Germanics:
Stefan the Berserker
SaFe
...

Iberians:
Aymar de Bois Mauri
...
...

Carthage:
Aymar de Bois Mauri
...
...

Aetolian League (former Greek Cities):
...
...
...

Dacians and Thracians:
Dead Moroz
The samnite
...

Scythians/Sarmatians/Parthians:
Dead Moroz
...
...

Ponthus/Seleucids/Ptolemaic Egypt (Successor States):
...
...
...

Other factions (PM me to coordinate):
...
...
...
...
...
...


-Battle system changes/Unit testing:

Steppe Merc
Aymar de Bois Mauri
...
...


-Naval battle changes:

khelvan
Colovion
...
...


-Coordination of the EB Historical thread:

Teutonic Knight
Aymar de Bois Mauri
...
...


-Factions and units - info and descriptions :

Gauls and Britons:
PSYCHO V
Ranika
The Wizard

Germanics:
Stefan the Berserker
SaFe
The Wizard

Iberians:
Aymar de Bois Mauri
...
...

Carthage:
Aymar de Bois Mauri
...
...

Aetolian League (former Greek Cities):
chemchok
...
...

Dacians and Thracians:
Stormy
...
...

Scythians/Sarmatians/Parthians:
Steppe Merc
Dead Moroz
The Wizard

Ponthus/Seleucids/Ptolemaic Egypt (Successor States):
The Wizard
...
...

Other factions (PM me to coordinate):
Stormy
chemchok
Ranika
Steppe Merc
ick_of_pick
...
...
...


-Gameplay testing and debugging:

Colovion
Ranika
Steppe Merc
Monk
Stormy
chemchok
PSYCHO V
Hagbard la Suede
Salazar
Mr. Juice
Dead Moroz
Sol Invictus
Sethik


Post me if you have any doubts about specific assignements within the same work related area



Updated 23:57 - 10/27/04

[The_Emperor]

I'd like to try and help out if I can, though my modding skills are totally nonexistant...

Feel free to use the info I posted on the Brits, though Psycho seems to have a bit more material now than I had.

Anyway lets see how this mod goes.

[SaFe]

The Germanic faction:
Some details for the modders to build up some interesting and historical units.

THE GERMANIC FACTION



Sahsnotas ("Swordbondsmen") : (Medium Infantry / Sword Warband)

Rome Total War Unit Abilities:Warcry, Expert at hiding in woods, may charge without orders, Combat bonus in woods and snow, Good morale.
Appearance:
long flowing hair without plaits and preferential without the suebian knot, germanic full beard, cloak, trousers in faction colour,
round shield with symbol of a white horse or germanic runes, Spatha-Sax , a long Cutting Sword.

These adept Germanic Swordfighters were known for their abilities with the sax, the saxon sword that gave this tribe its name.

They can be raised in the province Tribus Saxones.


Chatti Fanatics : (Light Infantry)

Rome Total War Unit Abilities:Warcry, Expert at hiding in woods, Excellent Morale, may charge without orders, Combat Bonus in woods and snow.
Appearance:
long flowing hair, but without plaits or the celtic spiked haircut, germanic fullbeard, naked chest, trousers in faction colour, round or hexagonal long shield and a spear or axe.

The Chatti, which means "the Distinguished" was a turbulent tribe that often clashed with the romans and fought decades against the Hermunduri, a rome-friendly tribe.
It was common for their young warriors not to shave their beards or cut their hair until they killed their first opponent in a battle.
After doing this, they often inflict some ritual scars on their own skin over the body of their fallen enemy to praise their gods.

They can be raised in the province Tribus Chattii.


Germanic Framaemen : (Light Infantry)

Rome Total War Unit Abilities:
Warcry, Expert at hiding in woods, Combat Bonus in woods and snow, Combat Bonus vs. Cavalry, may charge without orders.
Appearance:
The appearance of the Germanic SpearWarband fits well. Preferable would be some kind of cloak over their bare chest.
The Framaemen are the bulk of any germanic force. Their weapon, the framae was a spear with a short sharp ending, ideal for thrusting and throwing. They can work in close or open formation and are trained to form shield walls if necessary. They can throw or thrust with their spears which are suitable for melee as well as missile combat.
They should be a mix of the Spear Warband combined with the Skirmisher Warband.They can be raised all over Germania.


More to follow...
P.S.
Aymar, i hope this is the correct forum and the skinners and modders take a look at the information.

[The Wizard]

@The Wizard and Steppe Merc: Do you have detailed maps of Parthia?http://www.iranchamber.com/history/parthians/images/parthian_empire_map.gif

This is a map of Parthia at its height; it shows the name of all major cites and regions.

http://abuss.narod.ru/Biblio/Maps/map229.gif

Here's a map that you could perhaps use; it's in Russian, shows the extent of the Parni Arsacid kingdom, and the extent of Armenia under Tigranes the Great (I presume), plus the expansion of Parthia over time.

[Dead Moroz]

http://www.iranchamber.com/history/parthians/images/parthian_empire_map.gif

This is a map of Parthia at its height; it shows the name of all major cites and regions.

http://abuss.narod.ru/Biblio/Maps/map229.gif

Here's a map that you could perhaps use; it's in Russian, shows the extent of the Parni Arsacid kingdom, and the extent of Armenia under Tigranes the Great (I presume), plus the expansion of Parthia over time.

:bow:

Just interesting - how did you find Russian map?

[sharrukin]

Hey Dead Moroz I found some info on a people/place around Moscow called Meshcherka/Meshchera/Meschersky but most of the articles were in Russian which I do not speak. Also Morden who I think are the Mordvins. As a historical name replacement for Hyperborea. I like Hyperborea but I'm not sure how historical it is. What are your thoughts on this and do you know anything more about them. :bow:
Thank's Sharrukin

[Dead Moroz]

Also Morden who I think are the Mordvins. As a historical name replacement for Hyperborea. I like Hyperborea but I'm not sure how historical it is. What are your thoughts on this and do you know anything more about them. :bow:
"Mordvins" or "Mordva" is Russian name for dwellers of Mordor. So the proper name for Hyperboria would be... Mordor. ~D

[sharrukin]

I LIKE THAT! Now we have to work on those Uruk-Hai units. ~:cool:

[The Wizard]

I simply found the map on Google, and found that it was quite helpful, Moroz. You Russians are good map-makers!



~Wiz

[chemchok]

Here's a few Scythian/Sarmatian image links (historical decorative objects to be precise). Enjoy.

From an exhibition (http://www.metmuseum.org/special/se_event.asp?OccurrenceId={FFB57BF5-DEC9-11D3-936E-00902786BF44}) at the Metropolitan Museum of Art in NYC:
- Vessel with relief of a Scythian restringing a bow (c. 325 BC): Link (http://www.metmuseum.org/special/Golden%20Deer/6.L.htm)
- Golden deer shield emblem (late 7th C. BC): Link (http://www.metmuseum.org/special/Golden%20Deer/5.L.htm)
- Golden panther shield emblem (late 7th C. BC): Link (http://www.hermitagemuseum.org/html_En/03/hm3_2_6b.html)
- Detail of comb w/ battle scene (c. 400 BC): Link (http://www.metmuseum.org/special/Golden%20Deer/7.L.htm)

And from the Hermitage (where the Met exhibition was on loan from):
- A gold crescent pectoral (4th C. BC): Link (http://studentorgs.utexas.edu/husa/origins/szkitahist/szkitapectoral.html)
- Plaque of a Scythian horseman (4th C. BC): Link (http://studentorgs.utexas.edu/husa/origins/szkitahist/szkitalovas.plaque.html)

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

I'd like to try and help out if I can, though my modding skills are totally nonexistant...

Feel free to use the info I posted on the Brits, though Psycho seems to have a bit more material now than I had.

Anyway lets see how this mod goes.
Welcome back, The_Emperor!!! ~:wave:

We still need historians to help with buildings and unit looks as well as stats.

Any particular area of interest? Any group you would be more interested in working?

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

P.S.
Aymar, i hope this is the correct forum and the skinners and modders take a look at the information.
I think it would be best to post this in the Factions and units - info and descriptions.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

http://www.iranchamber.com/history/parthians/images/parthian_empire_map.gif

This is a map of Parthia at its height; it shows the name of all major cites and regions.

http://abuss.narod.ru/Biblio/Maps/map229.gif

Here's a map that you could perhaps use; it's in Russian, shows the extent of the Parni Arsacid kingdom, and the extent of Armenia under Tigranes the Great (I presume), plus the expansion of Parthia over time.
I know you had to reply to Dead Moroz's question here, but maybe you should put these maps in the Campaign Map thread too.

[Urnamma]

I'd like to help with research on Carthage and the Successor states. If you guys have room for that, of course.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

I'd like to help with research on Carthage and the Successor states. If you guys have room for that, of course.
Sure. Welcome to the group. I'll add you to the list. You will then coordinate your info with the guys working on each of those particular groups.

[Dead Moroz]

I simply found the map on Google, and found that it was quite helpful, Moroz. You Russians are good map-makers!

~Wiz
:bow:

[Urnamma]

Sure. Welcome to the group. I'll add you to the list. You will then coordinate your info with the guys working on each of those particular groups.

Sweet, Thanks. I'll get started then!

[PSYCHO V]

The Germanic faction:
Some details for the modders to build up some interesting and historical units.

THE GERMANIC FACTION



Sahsnotas ("Swordbondsmen") : (Medium Infantry / Sword Warband)

Rome Total War Unit Abilities:Warcry, Expert at hiding in woods, may charge without orders, Combat bonus in woods and snow, Good morale.
Appearance:
long flowing hair without plaits and preferential without the suebian knot, germanic full beard, cloak, trousers in faction colour,
round shield with symbol of a white horse or germanic runes, Spatha-Sax , a long Cutting Sword.

These adept Germanic Swordfighters were known for their abilities with the sax, the saxon sword that gave this tribe its name.

They can be raised in the province Tribus Saxones.


Chatti Fanatics : (Light Infantry)

Rome Total War Unit Abilities:Warcry, Expert at hiding in woods, Excellent Morale, may charge without orders, Combat Bonus in woods and snow.
Appearance:
long flowing hair, but without plaits or the celtic spiked haircut, germanic fullbeard, naked chest, trousers in faction colour, round or hexagonal long shield and a spear or axe.

The Chatti, which means "the Distinguished" was a turbulent tribe that often clashed with the romans and fought decades against the Hermunduri, a rome-friendly tribe.
It was common for their young warriors not to shave their beards or cut their hair until they killed their first opponent in a battle.
After doing this, they often inflict some ritual scars on their own skin over the body of their fallen enemy to praise their gods.

They can be raised in the province Tribus Chattii.


Germanic Framaemen : (Light Infantry)

Rome Total War Unit Abilities:
Warcry, Expert at hiding in woods, Combat Bonus in woods and snow, Combat Bonus vs. Cavalry, may charge without orders.
Appearance:
The appearance of the Germanic SpearWarband fits well. Preferable would be some kind of cloak over their bare chest.
The Framaemen are the bulk of any germanic force. Their weapon, the framae was a spear with a short sharp ending, ideal for thrusting and throwing. They can work in close or open formation and are trained to form shield walls if necessary. They can throw or thrust with their spears which are suitable for melee as well as missile combat.
They should be a mix of the Spear Warband combined with the Skirmisher Warband.They can be raised all over Germania.


More to follow...
P.S.
Aymar, i hope this is the correct forum and the skinners and modders take a look at the information.


Quick hi from holidays. Have you checked out Tacitus?

[The_Emperor]

What are the plans for Numidia and Carthage in this MOD? Because everything I have read about this period (Start of the 1st Punic War) has shown Numidia firmly under the Control of Carthage in North Africa until Rome (Scipio Africanus) intervened in the 2nd Punic War and bribed over one of their kings.

While I do think the Numidians should be in, I also think that Carthage needs most of North Africa... Numidia should perhaps be confined to the more southern areas of North Africa as an ally or client state of Carthage.

In Polybius histories about the rise of Rome, Carthage was described as a real power in this period and should be a lot tougher than the wimpy Carthage we have at the moment.

(You might want to put me down for general work on the Britons, Carthage and Successor states)

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

What are the plans for Numidia and Carthage in this MOD? Because everything I have read about this period (Start of the 1st Punic War) has shown Numidia firmly under the Control of Carthage in North Africa until Rome (Scipio Africanus) intervened in the 2nd Punic War and bribed over one of their kings.
khelvan and I had a discussion about that. My oppinion was that they were more of a vassal state than a conquest. His oppinion matches yours. Guess I'm wrong then.


While I do think the Numidians should be in, I also think that Carthage needs most of North Africa... Numidia should perhaps be confined to the more southern areas of North Africa as an ally or client state of Carthage.
The big problem here (fortunatelly solvable) is the lack of provinces to keep Numidia and Carthage from being destroyed too quickly. With the new map, with added territories, that will be much easier to avoid.


In Polybius histories about the rise of Rome, Carthage was described as a real power in this period and should be a lot tougher than the wimpy Carthage we have at the moment.
Not at the moment. Only with the RTW release version. The EB MOD Alpha 0.1 has a stronger Carthage. The Alpha 0.2 will have an improved map, making Carthage and Numidia stronger.


(You might want to put me down for general work on the Britons, Carthage and Successor states)
Great. I'll add you to the list. :thumbsup:

[Finnbat]

My opinion is that Carthage is not so weak as you say here. I have played the games factions 2/3 now (all in short campaigns) and Carthage did manage quite well. They have 2 good town with makes quite good money. They have problem only with distances and need of strong fleet.

I decided to make all effort in Africa and after secured mainland try to take back islands and finally throw some troops to Italy. It worked. In history we know that Hannibal decided to walk with his troops over Alps. I waited untill had power to cross the sea and then invaded Italy.

I wonder how come Hannibal didnt get troops in Italy, he got many states under his cause after Cannae, but couldnt enlist troops from those. Did he even try to build up his army in Italy ?

Well sorry for a long post, but I thing Carthage is not to be made too strong. It is allready too easy play (I allways play VH/VH)

[S.O.F]

I wonder how come Hannibal didnt get troops in Italy, he got many states under his cause after Cannae, but couldnt enlist troops from those. Did he even try to build up his army in Italy ?

Well he did, but those Italic states that switched sides merely kept the troops in garrison of their own cities and the Tarantines kept the Romans besiged in the city's citadel. Brutii Tribesmen were enlisted to fight the romans as well as what Gauls could be throw together, but Italic troops generally saw to their own cities rather then being part of Hannibals army.

[eadingas]

Hi,
I was told to come here... maybe you'd be interested in what I'm doing. My mod goes in a similar direction to yours... I've managed already to expand the map to the east 50 pixels, as far as the Aral Sea, and include some eastern provinces for Parthia, as well as change most of the names in Europe to more proper ones, based mostly on Ptolemy and Tacitus... Are you interested in that data?

[sharrukin]

Hi,
I was told to come here... maybe you'd be interested in what I'm doing. My mod goes in a similar direction to yours... I've managed already to expand the map to the east 50 pixels, as far as the Aral Sea, and include some eastern provinces for Parthia, as well as change most of the names in Europe to more proper ones, based mostly on Ptolemy and Tacitus... Are you interested in that data?

Have you had any glitches or other problems with extending the map as you have?
If not them you can help by telling us how to do so. Ded Moroz is the guy working on the map graphics, you should PM him and see what the two of you can come up with.

[PROMETHEUS]

Hi guys , My post is in the other thread , If I can join I would like to contribuite making consulence about historical accuracy of units since I have plenty of tables of historical units shape that I could post , I can use 3dsmax so I would like to make this warrior for the numidian faction , the Garamantes Warrior I think that it should substituite the numidian legionary that i find out of place and useless.....but i dunno how to get rid of the testudo formation style , and anyway this should be a utit of light infantry , bonus in desert , fast mostly a moderate bonus versus cav since it is a spearmen but not with a long spear as the phalanxes , and then could engage in close combat , probably its formations should be not in order so a bit messed like the non professional archers

[PSYCHO V]

Welcome PROMETHEUS. Send Amyar a PM

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Hi guys , My post is in the other thread , If I can join I would like to contribuite making consulence about historical accuracy of units since I have plenty of tables of historical units shape that I could post , I can use 3dsmax so I would like to make this warrior for the numidian faction , the Garamantes Warrior I think that it should substituite the numidian legionary that i find out of place and useless.....but i dunno how to get rid of the testudo formation style , and anyway this should be a utit of light infantry , bonus in desert , fast mostly a moderate bonus versus cav since it is a spearmen but not with a long spear as the phalanxes , and then could engage in close combat , probably its formations should be not in order so a bit messed like the non professional archers
Well, I like your ideas. The testudo won't be a problem. We can assign different pre-defined special habilities to units.

As for joining EB, I've answered to your request in the other thread.

[Dictator Sulla]

Hi guys,

Khelvan directed me to PM Aymar, but I keep getting a "Aymar de Bois Mauri has exceeded their stored private messages quota and can not accept further messages until they clear some space."

Cheers

Dictator Sulla
aka
Dictator in TW Centre
aka
Pedro Gustavo Martins
in plain old real life

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Hi guys,

Khelvan directed me to PM Aymar, but I keep getting a "Aymar de Bois Mauri has exceeded their stored private messages quota and can not accept further messages until they clear some space."

Cheers

Dictator Sulla
aka
Dictator in TW Centre
aka
Pedro Gustavo Martins
in plain old real lifeAnother Portuguese?!!! :grin:

Ainda bem que escreveste o teu nome na vida real. Estava quase a dizer: "Mas quem é este chato que anda a desenterrar threads cheios de teias de aranha?" :joker:

Podes mandar-me um PM, pois já esvaziei a caixa. É melhor para conversarmos sobre o EB.

A propósito, não estás a pensar fazer juz ao nome do teu avatar, pois não? O EB é demasiado democrático para isso... :wink:

[khelvan]

Ainda bem que escreveste o teu nome na vida real. Estava quase a dizer: "Mas quem é este chato que anda a desenterrar threads cheios de teias de aranha?" :joker:I could guess at most of what you wrote above, but what is "teias," and what does it have to do with spiders? :)

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

I could guess at most of what you wrote above, but what is "teias," and what does it have to do with spiders? :)Yes. "Teia" is "Web", as in "spider webs" = "teias de aranha"

The full translation is:

I'm glad you wrote your real life name. I was almost saying: "Who is this nag that is digging up old threads full of spider webs?" :joker:

You can send me a PM because I've emptyed my box. It's better for us to talk about EB.

BTW, you are not planning on justifying your avatar's name, are you? EB is too democratic for that... :wink:

[khelvan]

Hah, silly ~:)