A lost lesson from Sun Tzu

[VoodooChild]

Its been awhile since I have read the Art of War, but I do remember one of its proverbs, and please forgive me since I am retelling this from memory, so some of the details will be wrong. The lesson goes that if a neighboring ruler demands your food, you should give it to them. If the ruler demands your gold you should give it to him. If the ruler demands your wife you should give it to him. If the ruler demands some of your lands you should go to war. It is because of land that all those other things are possible, so they are unimportant when compared to land. Never give up your land.

I am reminded of this after reading some strats on another site. For most of the clans it is suggested that they forget about some of their provinces to reinforce other more important ones. While I see the value of creating smaller fronts or protecting valuable provinces, I can not see my way to not defend my lands. I'll use Uesugi as an example since it makes the least sense to me there.

Hida (output: 120 koku, terrain: mountains, specials: none, borders 1 enemy clan, 3 ronin provinces) Why should I walk away from this province? At the most, it has enough income to garrison two samurai units. At its least it can turn a profit if I station an Ashigaru unit there. I have found that even if I have a 1 man unit as a garrison the Ronins won't attack, and usually Oda has other plans than making a move against me. Now eventually they will, but at least for those couple of years

[Draksen]

If Oda attacks me on Hida province
(as UESUGI clan), it depends...
if I think I can win this battle without too many losses in my army
(Oda-army with YS/YA), I will go to war and fight against Oda.
But if Oda use archers (large group of archers) I will flee to Shinano province.

Defending Hida is a good idea, but if it makes you lose Shinano later...

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http://www.geocities.com/draksen/doragon.JPG

[This message has been edited by Draksen (edited 01-03-2001).]

[Toranaga_Sama]

>>Hida (output: 120 koku, terrain: mountains, specials: none, borders 1 enemy clan, 3 ronin provinces) Why should I walk away from this province? At the most, it has enough income to garrison two samurai units. At its least it can turn a profit if I station an Ashigaru unit there. I have found that even if I have a 1 man unit as a garrison the Ronins won't attack, and usually Oda has other plans than making a move against me. Now eventually they will, but at least for those couple of years

[ShaiHulud]

VC..I like your style! I also agree on Hida. I've had to resolve myself to its loss but abandon it? No! It's been worth a lot before it finally fell and the garrison of two Ashi was no loss.
By forcing my enemies to calculate carefully their attacks I may well delay their plans. Another clan may declare war on them. Their harvests may be too poor to support their desires for a while yet. Remove any doubt, by abandoning a province, and one removes any possible favorable circumstances as well.

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Wind fells blossoms, rain
fells steel,yet bamboo bends and drinks

[Anssi Hakkinen]

Sun Tzu's point in the passage VoodooChild referred to (Chapter I, verse 23, BTW) was that the enemy should be tempted with conceding things that are not important; then, when the enemy grows complacent and thinks you're weak, an attack will catch him unprepared.

As for Hida, in most circumstances it's quite foolish to immediately abandon it. If you have no troops there, it will be taken immediately by either Oda or the Ikkô-Ikki monks of Kaga; it's too valuable to pass up if you don't defend it at all. As they attack your province, a war is declared, which causes them to immediately become more aggressive towards you. Then you have Shinano sandwiched between Hôjô, Oda, Imagawa, Takeda AND the aggressive Ikkô-Ikki.

On the other hand, if you have 1 Ashigaru at Hida, the Ikkô-Ikki (or the Oda) only attack it if they're going to go to war against you anyway. If war is unavoidable, then you can give up Hida, but there's no point in giving it up and making an enemy at the same time.

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"Crystal clear, / Sharp and bright, / The sacred sword / Allows no opening / For evil to roost."
- Ueshiba Morihei O-Sensei

[VoodooChild]

Anssi Hakkinen: Thanks for the correction

All: It looks like I didn't copy paste everything that I had wrote on the subject, below is a recap and the missing text http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

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...While I see the value of creating smaller fronts or protecting valuable provinces, I can not see my way to not defend my lands. I'll use Uesugi as an example since it makes the least sense to me there.

Hida (output: 120 koku, terrain: mountains, specials: none, borders 1 enemy clan, 3 ronin provinces) Why should I walk away from this province? At the most, it has enough income to garrison two samurai units. At its least it can turn a profit if I station an Ashigaru unit there. I have found that even if I have a 1 man unit as a garrison the Ronins won't attack, and usually Oda has other plans than making a move against me. Now eventually they will, but at least for those couple of years I make money. I will often times drive out ronin forces in Noto and Etchu and place simple garrisons there after they come under my total control. Not only will this net extra koku for me, but it will make Kaga that much more difficult for some other clan to take.

Shinaro (output: 340 koku, terrain: mountains, specials: armoury, borders 4 enemy clans, 1 ronin) Now to walk away from this province is just insane. Above all, if you manage to hold this province it forces the other clans to protect all 7 neighboring provinces. Sure some of these would have to already, but if one of these clans decides to attack, they still need to leave a portion of their armies to defend the staging province. This increases the odds in your favor.

Any army that attacks Shinaro will be hard pressed to deal with your archers (your specialty) on mountains protected by samurai. For each attack a clan makes they will have to spend additional koku to replace troops that might otherwise be spent elsewhere. If positioned well you could take advantage from these weaknesses in other provinces.

Nowhere else will building the two spy structures (forget the names) bring you so much information on your enemies. Taking into fact that Imagawa's strong suit are ninjas having an extra line of defense will likely result in Imagawa losing more resources trying wreak havoc in your only neighboring province.

Now I'm not advocating that Shinaro should be held at all costs, but it should bleed as much as it can from your enemies. A good rules of thumb that I use when playing Uesugi to divide your provinces into two groups. Shinaro, Hida, and whatever other ronin provinces you take, should be in one group while the other be comprised of all of your other provinces. Use whatever profit you gain from holding onto the Shinaro group to defend Shinaro. This way your not taking anything away from your most important provinces. Sure it will take some time before you can get those armored horsemen into the battle field, but it will be less time and cost than if you simply gave up on Shinaro and waited until you could retake Shinaro or conquer Hitatchi. And since your koku is separate you can still take Hitatchi if it fits into your plans, Hitatchi just doesn't HAVE to be your first target. There is value in flexibility.

Comments, criticisms

[Toranaga_Sama]

Can spring come to soon...Boy, this thread makes me ache for MP Campaign, come on CA!!!

Question, do you have regard for the Hojo horde?? No matter which clan I play, but especially Ugeshi, Takeda, Imagawa and even Oda, the number one priority is to effect the horde negatively in every way possible. It is necessary to deal with Hojo first, not crush him immediately, but reduce his Koku.

The Ronin, Oda and Imagawa are of little concern "respectively". Takeda must be respected because of his calvery, gold mine and the high koku producing province below Kai (forget name).

>>Shinaro (output: 340 koku, terrain: mountains, specials: armoury, borders 4 enemy clans, 1 ronin) Now to walk away from this province is just insane. Above all, if you manage to hold this province it forces the other clans to protect all 7 neighboring provinces. Sure some of these would have to already, but if one of these clans decides to attack, they still need to leave a portion of their armies to defend the staging province. This increases the odds in your favor.>Now I'm not advocating that Shinaro should be held at all costs, but it should bleed as much as it can from your enemies. >Nowhere else will building the two spy structures (forget the names) bring you so much information on your enemies. Taking into fact that Imagawa's strong suit are ninjas having an extra line of defense will likely result in Imagawa losing more resources trying wreak havoc in your only neighboring province.>Any army that attacks Shinaro will be hard pressed to deal with your archers (your specialty) on mountains protected by samurai. >Above all, if you manage to hold this province it forces the other clans to protect all 7 neighboring provinces. Sure some of these would have to already, but if one of these clans decides to attack, they still need to leave a portion of their armies to defend the staging province. This increases the odds in your favor.>Now eventually they will, but at least for those couple of years I make money. I will often times drive out ronin forces in Noto and Etchu and place simple garrisons there after they come under my total control. Not only will this net extra koku for me, but it will make Kaga that much more difficult for some other clan to take.

[VoodooChild]

Toranaga_Sama:

Quote Originally posted by Toranaga_Sama:
BTW, what level do you play on?[/QUOTE]

I haven't played since before the first patch, but when I did it was on the hardest level. A few days ago I decide to try and find out the latest on TW:S and started to read some of the strats. I'm still trying to play the game on my new laptop, but having problems, if I can't get anywhere tonight, look for a post on the other board.

Quote Originally posted by Toranaga_Sama:
Question, do you have regard for the Hojo horde?? [/QUOTE]

I only have problems with the horde when playing one of the western (southern) clans, otherwise Hojo is my primary target and is never given a chance to get out of hand. The advantage in playing Uesugi is you can attack four of Hojo's provinces. Hitatchi or Shimotsuke is usually my first target since it forces Hojo to defend his capital at Shimosa, therefore spreading his troops thinner.

Quote Originally posted by Toranaga_Sama:
The Ronin, Oda and Imagawa are of little concern "respectively". Takeda must be respected because of his calvery, gold mine and the high koku producing province below Kai (forget name). [/QUOTE]

I agree with everything, but Imagawa. In my games he was the one to always attack Shinano first, plus his ninjas can be very annoying. Takeda's horses I can deal with, but Imagawa's honored archers can be more difficult for Uesugi to defeat than the average forces of Hojo.

Quote Originally posted by Toranaga_Sama:
I do not wish to waste troops and resources repelling attacks from Imagawa, Oda or Takeda [in Shinano and Hida], but rather to spend both in overwhelming a Hojo province. As I've stated no one will attack Shiano (for some time) if it is properly garrisoned. Hida's troops are better used to this purpose. See prior post.
[/QUOTE]

Under my suggestion, keeping 1 As unit in Hida will not break the defenses of Shinano. Plus the extra income from Hida can be used to buy units to defend Shinano. IMHO its a win-win proposition. If someone attacks Hida then by all means retreat, but until that point make some koku.

Quote Originally posted by Toranaga_Sama:
I believe in continual reinforcement of this province [Shinano]to stave off belated attacks. I prefer to receive a "decisive" attack, whose successful defense will weaken the attacker to the point of collaspe. [/QUOTE]

You seem to contradict yourself...but I believe your trying to say something like this:

Keep the defenses in Shinano strong to delay attacks from other clans, meanwhile you devote everything else to attacking Hojo. While everyone builds up forces in and around Shinano, the first clan who attacks wont be able to withstand counter attacks from other clans since so much had to be devoted to the first attack. So they wait until they get the upper hand, which never comes.

While I basically agree with this thought, the strategic situation may not favor the absolute defense of Shinano. Hojo treating my capital and only production center means that Mutsu is far more important than Shinano. I don't mind fighting defensively at Shinano, but not if it means giving Hojo the upper hand. For me I rather fall back from Shinano to Echigo and throw everything at Hojo. In the strats I have read, they do this from the get go, but I say hold onto Shinano for as long as possible, and if fortune smiles on you, you may be able to keep Shinano and make it into the production center that it can be.

Quote Originally posted by Toranaga_Sama:
Getting Shiano's cheap calvary is another extemely strong reason to hold onto it. .....

Slightly confused, the Imagawa clan has the archer "specialty".
[/QUOTE]

Some corrections: Uesugi has cheaper archers than normal, Shinano produce calvary with a +1 Honor bonus and can build an amoury there (not cheaper - that's Takeda). Totomi (Imagawa's capital) can produce archers with a +1 Honor bonus.

Quote Originally posted by Toranaga_Sama:
I can't help the feeling that much of your post isn't from the perspective of Ugeshi. When I play Ugeshi, these provinces are of little concern. Considering the above, including Hida, I estimate that you have, at minimum 6 units of troops tied up in these provinces which gives you at best a Zero Net Gain possibly a negative gain. To what benefit?
[/QUOTE]

Yes it is completely on Uesugi. Attack Noto on the first turn with your As in Sado. As long as you hold the As there, the ronins won't attack. If a rebellion pops up in Noto, then pull back to Sado. Again the ronin wont attack Sado as long as your As are there. The 30 upkeep vs the 100 income (even in 50% harvests) will net some extra koku.

Etchu you will have to wait to see what develops since it will require 2 As and 2 SA at full strength to occupy and pacify this province. If things are going well with Hojo while Imagawa and Takeda start to fight, then it is not inconceivable that these forces might be available. Until Etchu supports you, the upkeep/income is slightly in your favor, and there after with only 1 As unit its almost pure profit.

Also in regards to Etchu, if Oda continues his ronin eradication program in Kaga, then if you overwhelm the ronins in Etchu they will retreat to Kaga, and strengthen the defenses there, forcing Oda to use more resources to take it. Another victory for you. Hida is almost pure profit from the get go if you move your SA to Shinano. If you don't want this extra koku then by all means ignore these provinces.

From the sounds of things your strat isn't that all that different from mine. I just really objected to the strats I was reading that said retreat from Hida and Shinano turn 1. Hopefully I'll be putting my theories into practice soon http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif