Post-Marian Units not worth it?

[Servius]

Granted, once the change occurs you don't have much of a choice between pre-Marian and post-Marian units but this is what I've found (Huge units)...

Unit Name, Tot. Attack, Charge, Tot. Defense, Cost, Upkeep

Town Watch, 4, 4, 7, 150, 100
Hastati, 10, 14, 16, 440, 170
Principe, 10, 14, 18, ?, ?
Early Legion, 10, 14, 18, 610, 210
Prae Cohort, 13, 17, 24, 810, 320

Triarii, ?, ?, ?, ?, ?
Auxilia, 6, 5, 17, 430, 170

Roman Archers, 8, 12, 5, 190, 170
Archer Auxilia, 4, 9, 7, 430, 170

Equite, 10, 7, 14, 390, ?
Roman Cav, 8, 7, 15, 520, ?

The ? are becasue I don't have that data at my current save point.

What I see here is that post-Marian units almost always have the same or worse attack, charge, and misslie dmg values, slightly better defensive values, but HUGE increases in cost an upkeep. Something not shown in the unit cards is morale, but still. This doesn't seem right. I don't understand why units with poorer combat stats cost more money?

Do you all think these values are off? For those who have looked at the code, are the Morale values that much better? Is there a justification for this that I'm missing?

[son of spam]

Granted, once the change occurs you don't have much of a choice between pre-Marian and post-Marian units but this is what I've found (Huge units)...

Unit Name, Tot. Attack, Charge, Tot. Defense, Cost, Upkeep

Town Watch, 4, 4, 7, 150, 100
Hastati, 10, 14, 16, 440, 170
Principe, 10, 14, 18, ?, ?
Early Legion, 10, 14, 18, 610, 210
Prae Cohort, 13, 17, 24, 810, 320

Triarii, ?, ?, ?, ?, ?
Auxilia, 6, 5, 17, 430, 170

Roman Archers, 8, 12, 5, 190, 170
Archer Auxilia, 4, 9, 7, 430, 170

Equite, 10, 7, 14, 390, ?
Roman Cav, 8, 7, 15, 520, ?

The ? are becasue I don't have that data at my current save point.

What I see here is that post-Marian units almost always have the same or worse attack, charge, and misslie dmg values, slightly better defensive values, but HUGE increases in cost an upkeep. Something not shown in the unit cards is morale, but still. This doesn't seem right. I don't understand why units with poorer combat stats cost more money?

Do you all think these values are off? For those who have looked at the code, are the Morale values that much better? Is there a justification for this that I'm missing?


Dunno what game you are playing, but Roman Archers definitely do NOT have better attack/defense than archer auxilia. Same thing with Roman Cav and Equites. Check the unit statistics in the text files. The actual game representation of the stats is surely affected by exp, weapons, armor upgrades, which you may have forgotten to subtract.

[Soulflame]

Your numbers are almost all not correct. If you look at stats in a city, any building that upgrades them, automatically adjusts the stats in the description screen.
For example, Hastati, Principes and Triarii all have 7 base attack (from the export_unit_decr.txt), as do Equites and Cavalry Auxilla. Early Leg. Chohort has a base attack of 9, as does the Legionairry Cavalry (although this one is available pre-Marius).

[RedKnight]

I hope somebody will post up a nicely formatted version of the unit stats file. I'll get around to it one of these months if nobody else does. Would like to see a simple Excel table.

[ChaosLord]

You also left out Legionary Cohort, which has stats nearly as good as the Praetorian Cohort but only 210 for support costs and around 600 to train. They formed the backbone of my armies as the Scipii, they're great all around troops and definitly better the the pre-Marian troops.

[Soulflame]

I hope somebody will post up a nicely formatted version of the unit stats file. I'll get around to it one of these months if nobody else does. Would like to see a simple Excel table.

As a matter of fact I'm working on a PDF file with unit stats. The formatting is a lot of work, but I'll get there. I also included small icons of the units, which make it easier to identify the units, and a bit more attractive.
I'm almost done with the Roman one (probably later tonight).

I do need hosting for it... since I don't have a place to host myself...

[Slaists]

yes, the stats appear wrong. especially, the charge bonuses. hastati and principes have charge of 2 whereas the later - marian legionaires havet 4.

also, the post-marian roman archers have much longer range and more damage to their missile attack. in fact, i think, they are better than the cretian archers.

[Servius]

ah, okay, good. Yeah, the data I was looking at was build card in cities for post-Marian units and info cards on pre-Marian units that were still in my army. I was unaware the the stats on those cards were constantly upgraded by the game based on weapon/armor upgrades, valor, etc. Yeah, I haven't looked at the unit stats data files too much yet because they seem a lot harder to find and understand that the MTW txt files. The Excel spreadsheet format was easy for me to understand.

On one hand I think it's cool that the pages upgrade stat info based on the buildings in the city, but on the other hand I think it could get confusing if you don't show base values because that means the same unit built in different cities could have completely different stats. The ideal, for me at least, would be if every info sheet showed the base values for each unit, and then in neighboring columns show the bonuses for weapon, armor, and valor upgrades.

Anyway, thanks for straightening that out, and I very much look forward to the unit description pdf you're talking about. That and a unit tree would be very helpful.

[RedKnight]

As a matter of fact I'm working on a PDF file with unit stats.

I do need hosting for it... since I don't have a place to host myself...
Great news, Soul! Thanks for that.

I personally highly prefer Excel to pdfs. You can sort them any which way, filter, make additional stats columns (like support dollars/man), etc. But of course, there are plenty of folks that would never want a spreadsheet. If you can slip both in a .zip, that'd be great. Otherwise I'll eventually make my own Excel out of the .txt, if nobody else does. Their text files usually need a bit of head banging to get into presentable shape, eh?

I consider TWCenter.net the best place for posting TW files, as I see you've done with the Temple Guide. I posted a huge .zip file with a dozen small nuggety Excels for MTW to the .Org 6 weeks ago, but it got put at 3ddownloads (here (http://www.3ddownloads.com/totalwar), under FAQs then MTW then FaysMTW_Pack). But that's not only out of the way but also, last time I checked, the 3dDownloads area wasn't even mentioned on the TW.Org download pages. Not that I'm faulting the .Org - hosting huge downloads (which some of them are) costs money and/or you do what you have to do. Sometimes you get what you pay for when a site's free, eh? :) TWC meanwhile has a really superb download area meshed into their site, which includes the ability to update your own files and have a message thread for each file. The Org's message boards seem better, though... so I post messages to the Org, and files to TWC.

Right, Servius... they've also made RTW very difficult to see just which cities are making how much money, straight up. I guess some "simplifications" arguably go too far. Still, I'll take it!! It's the only game in town as far as I'm concerned. ~D

Conquer on! ~:cheers:

[Servius]

Unit stats...

http://www.gamespot.com/features/6110568/p-2.html

[Soulflame]

Great news, Soul! Thanks for that.

I personally highly prefer Excel to pdfs. You can sort them any which way, filter, make additional stats columns (like support dollars/man), etc. But of course, there are plenty of folks that would never want a spreadsheet. If you can slip both in a .zip, that'd be great. Otherwise I'll eventually make my own Excel out of the .txt, if nobody else does. Their text files usually need a bit of head banging to get into presentable shape, eh?

I consider TWCenter.net the best place for posting TW files, as I see you've done with the Temple Guide. I posted a huge .zip file with a dozen small nuggety Excels for MTW to the .Org 6 weeks ago, but it got put at 3ddownloads (here (http://www.3ddownloads.com/totalwar), under FAQs then MTW then FaysMTW_Pack). But that's not only out of the way but also, last time I checked, the 3dDownloads area wasn't even mentioned on the TW.Org download pages. Not that I'm faulting the .Org - hosting huge downloads (which some of them are) costs money and/or you do what you have to do. Sometimes you get what you pay for when a site's free, eh? :) TWC meanwhile has a really superb download area meshed into their site, which includes the ability to update your own files and have a message thread for each file. The Org's message boards seem better, though... so I post messages to the Org, and files to TWC.

Right, Servius... they've also made RTW very difficult to see just which cities are making how much money, straight up. I guess some "simplifications" arguably go too far. Still, I'll take it!! It's the only game in town as far as I'm concerned. ~D

Conquer on! ~:cheers:

Sure I can put the Excel file in too. If you want the excel for the temple guide too, ring a bell. I think they are bigger (haven't checked) plus I think it looks kinda unfinished in excel, but everyone its thing.
I basically got every basic thing in the guide: units in regiment, attack, armor, charge bonus, second attack, building requirement, turns to build, cost to train & upkeep, special skills (Like hide in long grass etc), even added a little icon for all units, so I don't know what you would want to add ~;p. There isn't even room for more I think. The Roman units "just" fit in 2 pages (one pre-marius and one post-marius)
The unit guide for Romans are already done for about 4 hours, but they still aren't approved at the NET, probably in the morning (in my country).

If it's not up in the morning, you couldpm me your emailaddress and I'll mail them to you.

@Servius I can't open that, seems like you need to register... and probably get a chunk of spam with it.

[Servius]

It's from GameSpot's guide they just finished, but yeah, you have to be a basic member. I hoped that the link wouldn't require registration, just registration in order to get there. Anyway, I copied the Roman units to a Word file but I have no hosting so I can't do anything with it. Plus it's only the Romans so far (though the guide has everyone, I just copied the Romans for my own games. Yours will be cooler anyway. I'll just wait on that.

[Soulflame]

It's up! http://www.twcenter.net/downloads/db/?mod=108
Feedback and errors are always helpfull ~:).

Cheers and enjoy!

[motorhead]

Here's a nice online set of stats for rome: http://www.onlinedesert.com/rtw/ . Has everything I want except unit speeds.

[Soulflame]

Here's a nice online set of stats for rome: http://www.onlinedesert.com/rtw/ . Has everything I want except unit speeds.

That site gave me the original idea to make my guide. It's a really nice site, but you can't really easy compare the units, or print it out to have with you. (which can't be done with the webpage)
My goal is to make a guide with all the basic stats, with only 1 page per faction (2 for the romans, since they have 2 tech trees), nicely tabled, and easy to view.
It doesn't give all the in depth info (like how the armor is composed), but that's not really that important in this guide.

I got the Macedonians done too, working on the Egyptians as I type this...

[RedKnight]

Looks great, Soul! thanks for that!!

If/when you can ever get to the Excel, that's great too. NO rush.

Have a great weekend - enslaving all of Europe! One province at a time. ~:cheers:

[Soulflame]

Thanks for the praise ~:)
I've done Macedon, Egypt, The Seleucid Empire, Carthage, Parthia and Pontus today... and added hyperlinks for easy reference. Still 10 factions to go...
Ugh... it's kind of tedious.. but somehow I still like doing it...

I will make it available when it's completely done, since otherwise you have to download it several times. I think I can complete it by Monday if all goes well.
And the new download will include the excel file (but once again, to download it several times would be pointless)

[LordKhaine]

I know from experience that archer auxilia have a greater range than roman archers also. During the reform I often fielded both units, and the archer auxilia were always the first to fire.

I don't know about you guys, but the moment I was at peace I disbanded the remains of my pre-marian troops and replaced them with post-mariane reform troops. Though I didn't really do that for gameplay reasons as such... it just seemed kind of wrong having outdated units years after the reforms.