View Full Version : The Superhero's of RTW?
Every now and then as I'm reading the posts on this forum I come across a posting from one of these superhero's of RTW.
You know the guy who is bleating on about the game being too easy because he can beat the entire Praetorian Guard with one unit peasants and a bent stick.
I don't doubt that these people are telling the truth, I'm just curious as to how they do it. I've been wargaming for about 35 years so I'm reasonably aware of the tactic's that ought to work on the battlefield and yet I couldn't achieve such resounding victories even if I acheived a surprised flank attack in thick fog when the enemy were having breakfast.
So, what exactly are these people doing, is there some gliche in the logic somewhere that can be explioted that I don't know about?
Some special move like a 'mooney of death' that bowls over your enemies shield wall. Or are we just talking difficulty levels?
I'm really curious as it sounds like we are playing two completely different games.
I'm fairly sure its something to do with hard+ difficulty & (historically) excessive use of cavalry.
Bob the Insane
10-22-2004, 12:04
~:joker:
Somebody needs a ~:grouphug: ... ~D
The situation you are discribing will never occur, even against high valour, well armed and armoured peasants (like the ones you get after revolts... :dizzy2: ) it will not happen..
But on the other hand if you take two reasonably equal armies with no terrain advantage on either side in RTW and fight it out I challenge you (with your experience) to lose!! Bet you will not, even on Very Hard... Not unless you have seriously screwed up in the selection of your units in context with the enemy you are fighting...
It's either the case of kids showing off (ie. lying) or a case of exploiting bugs/features.
I consider myself a solid player (certainly not exceptional), but I'll never exploit bugs to win - I'd rather play at a lower difficulty level. This includes cases like luring the enemy to camp in front of your city's towers until utterly annihalated. It's too bad that the AI doesn't realize that this is bogus, but I sure do, and I won't record a win bqz of exploiting AI stupidity.
Generals make too big a difference to morale imho.
As in most battles morale is the key to victory, but if the enemy are without a good leader and you have your umpteen-* general with you, the enemy runs far too quickly.
~:joker:
Somebody needs a ~:grouphug: ... ~D
The situation you are discribing will never occur, even against high valour, well armed and armoured peasants (like the ones you get after revolts... :dizzy2: ) it will not happen..
But on the other hand if you take two reasonably equal armies with no terrain advantage on either side in RTW and fight it out I challenge you (with your experience) to lose!! Bet you will not, even on Very Hard... Not unless you have seriously screwed up in the selection of your units in context with the enemy you are fighting...
I have to admit that I have lost three seige battles against revolting Gladiators where the numeric odds were decidely in my favour. (e.g. 4:1)
However, these were situations where the former garrison was trying to retake their own city and so I was pitching Town Watch units against highly trained killing machines in very confined spaces. Not a good combination.
As you quite rightly say in a fairly even battle with an appropraite mix of units I can always out play the AI. But it is the right mix of units that matters, so for instance my armies campaigning in Egypt have a completely different units mix to those designed for Macedonia simple because of the need to combat chariots and desert axemen instead of the phalanx.
Basically, at present a human being will always have the advantage over the AI because the AI doesn't learn from its mistakes and so is doomed to repeat them. So, the first time I met Egyptian chariots they totally creamed my infantry but I quickly learned how to take them out with missile fire and light troops so that now they are just so much expensive cannon fodder.
The AI however, cannot learn that this is the case and continues to field armies with chariots.
The real challenge would be to play this game against a human opponent or opponents.
R'as al Ghul
10-22-2004, 12:44
Didz,
I also noticed those posts and am quite sure that a lot of bragging and lying is involved. I would consider myself as an experienced player. I started with STW and followed the series till now. In fact it's been the only game worth my time in the last years. I mostly play SP but have some experience with MP as well. MP is of course the bigger challenge but throughout my play there have always been challenging battles in a campaign. Not every one, mind you, but I'm frequently surprised in a positive way by the AI.
For example the luring towards your walls during a siege-sally. Well, I read it here and thought I give it a try when I was seriously outnumbered and could have used the extra fire power from my walls. Guess what, the AI wasn't that stupid, as soon as he would take fire he retreated a few meters and simply couldn't be lured to the walls. There was no way to beat him with my units and I lost.
It's also a fact that the frequent flanking moves the AI does pull off are a huge improvement over the last games. In comparison to STW the AI got very clever.
However, in the end the game engine is limited and the human player will always be superiour. It would be eery if it was otherwise. It's only a game.
R'as
Bob the Insane
10-22-2004, 12:53
Town Watch
To use these guys with any degree of success you have to remember they have the morale and fighting spirit of a door mouse...
In fact on the battlefield they are best used a spectators, cheering on your other troops.. ~D
It's also a fact that the frequent flanking moves the AI does pull off are a huge improvement over the last games. In comparison to STW the AI got very clever.
Yes, I've noticed that. The Egyptians love manoeuvring their chariots around your flanks and if your not paying attention it can be damned nasty. On the other hand I've been caught out paying too much attention to these hovering chariots and suddnely finding my front line swamped by desert axemen.
I've now taken to forming a sort of three sided box with refused flanks to sheild my missile troops with Cavalry protecting the rear which seems to keep the Egyptains honest.
To use these guys with any degree of success you have to remember they have the morale and fighting spirit of a door mouse...
In fact on the battlefield they are best used a spectators, cheering on your other troops.. ~D
Yes! unfortunately my city garrisons only contain Town Watch and Archers so I was a bit limited in choice of unit.
What I was trying to do was keep the Gladiators busy whilst I slipped some archers through the breach behind them, captured the walls and towers and then use missile fire to elminate the defenders.
It's worked ok to begin with and despite heavy casualties the Town Watch sacrificed themselves to cover the Archers but then the sneaky AI brought a Cavalry unit round the boundary road and directly into the flank of my watchmen which was just too much for them to handle and they ran for the hills leaving my archers stranded. Damned nice move by the AI as the cavalry came on so fast I didn't have time to react.
Now, I have Extermination Armies in each area ready to deal with revolts and just let my City Garrisons sit and watch the slaughter.
Paul Peru
10-22-2004, 13:13
I'm no superhero, just a decent SP player who would be hopeless if I tried MP.
(I pause...)
I've won battles in RTW against vastly superior opposition.
The key is routing them, which is too easy. Outflank an enemy unit, and make them rout.
Once they start routing, you just have to look menacingly at the rest of the enemy army. "Run away!! Run away!!"
Of course this is bordering on an exploit, especially if one uses cavalry, but of course one hardly does. I can't help it if they put the general on a horse! :charge:
I'm no superhero, just a decent SP player who would be hopeless if I tried MP.
(I pause...)
I've won battles in RTW against vastly superior opposition.
The key is routing them, which is too easy. Outflank an enemy unit, and make them rout.
Once they start routing, you just have to look menacingly at the rest of the enemy army. "Run away!! Run away!!"
Of course this is bordering on an exploit, especially if one uses cavalry, but of course one hardly does. I can't help it if they put the general on a horse! :charge:
Well its an expliot, but a perfectly valid one.
I remember the good old days when I had the time and space for Tabletop Wargaming and under the Wargames Research Group rules exactly what you describe would be equally true.
I remember one game where my opponent had placed an unsupported artillery battery on one flank of his line, supposedly to cover it.
My Cuirassiers took it out in one charge routing it into the infantry unit on its flank and then proceeded to roll up the entire of his battle line from left to right with each routing unit spreading panic to the next.
Historically, one squadron of French lancers routed an entire Spanish Army in one battle. So, its not a bug its just that the AI obviosly isn't anticipating the risk and protecting itself against it.
I like being a siege defender with stone walls against the comp. I always like to see if I can get an enemy to try and assult a stonewalled city because all you need to three tough units to turn almost any number of them into bacon bits. Two on the walls to hold them, and one in front of the gate.
Either they'll batter down the gate, all try to charge through, get piled up in front of the tough unit waiting at the gate and get boiling oiled in their hundreds until they run (works especially well against the vast Macedonian cavalry armies), or their inital wall attackers will get creamed along with the extra wave they send up, and the rest will stand there getting shot to pieces until they leave.
In such a manner I've had Spartans be responsible for 1000 dead cavalrymen simply because their unit is so tough the enemy couldn't break through it and past the Gate Of Doom.
I like being a siege defender with stone walls against the comp.
Must admit I have yet to witness the AI make a successful seige assault.
I normally find that they try and starve you into surrender but that a sally can lure them into deadly killing range of the archers and towers of your walls.
There have been a few exceptions where the AI has refused to play the game and one where my sally force got systematically slaughtered as it tried to provoke an assault.
I've also been beaten a couple of times by AI defenders sallying out of a city and breaking my seige mainly becuase they are damned sneaky and don't come out of the gate you are guarding. :furious3:
chemchok
10-22-2004, 14:38
Must admit I have yet to witness the AI make a successful seige assault.
I normally find that they try and starve you into surrender but that a sally can lure them into deadly killing range of the archers and towers of your walls.
There have been a few exceptions where the AI has refused to play the game and one where my sally force got systematically slaughtered as it tried to provoke an assault.
I've also been beaten a couple of times by AI defenders sallying out of a city and breaking my seige mainly becuase they are damned sneaky and don't come out of the gate you are guarding. :furious3:
I had a memorable AI city assault by one of the Roman factions during the Civil War. The AI built several ladders, two battering rams, and three siege towers. Even with three elite legionary cohorts and several archer auxilla it was tough to hold the walls because of the sheer number of troops that were thrown at me. I just wish the AI actually assaulted my cities like that more often.
Zatoichi
10-22-2004, 17:33
I've had plenty of fun seige assaults and defences. I've actually lost quite a few defending when only having wooden walls, but only a couple when having stone walls and being seriously outnumbered.
What I did find happening as the Julii during the late game when facing constant seiges from the Brutii, was that they'd come a me with a ram and a couple of seige towers - the ram would get flambed, but the towers would make it to my walls. But as soon as the towers stopped and I heard the 'the seige towers have reached the walls' speech, the enemy troops would all withdraw without actually attempting to use them. This results in big losses for them as they got penalised for withdrawing from the battle.
That minor gripe aside, I'm usually impressed with the AI during battles - it's challenging enough to be fun, which is the whole point, really.
Tricky Lady
10-22-2004, 17:47
heh heh, I guess that I am one of the few (or non-existing) antiheroines... ~;p It is usually me who runs of the battlefield screaming, unless I outnumber the AI. Especially when fighting the Gauls with one of the Roman factions. Well, I guess I'm just not good at this game... it's about time that I start facing the truth, lol. :smiley:
I don't know what it is but I just can't seem to manage to hold off the charging Gauls.... They just run into my lines and a few seconds later: too bad, it's over, there he goes my dear old Flavius Julius screaming for his mom. I _do_ beat them when I outnumber them, but that's hardly an accomplishment, now is it?
The only factions I managed to beat (even when outnumbered) are the Macedonians and Greeks, and the Thracians got some beating too. But I got way more casualties at the end of the battles against the Thracians (guess it's them falxmen who do it).
So...well, I guess I should try and practise more custom battles (did so this evening and lost three consecutive battles against Gauls; lost a custom siege battle Greeks-Julii too)... and read and study the strategy guides better and more...
And now :charge:
PS. One positive side: at least I keep my games "fun". I am _not_ walking over the AI so this games proves to be a real challenge to me ~;p
I think most of the apparantly-even battles do have a reasonable casaulty for the winning side. A heroic victory would be a 10:1 - 5:1 kill ratio.
The extreme kill ratios come from extreme settings. For example, when one side has no missle units and choose to camp, while the other side has many. Also, the absence of cavalry makes a large difference when being beaten - few infantry man could outrun horses.
In the "very hard" settings, 3 or 4 stars on an enemy general (if not suicidal) could be very devastating - almost every unit stands till the last men. I had such a battle last night. Although I outnumbered the enemy 2:1, it still took a huge effort to finally seal the victory.
Also, one can keep save/load until the best outcome of a battle is seen. I once played a multi-player online war game. There were no save/load, and there were tons of tactics to use. There you can really see what a good general IN PERSON is made of, not just kids trying to redeem their self-esteem.
The Scourge
10-22-2004, 18:50
heh heh, I guess that I am one of the few (or non-existing) antiheroines... ~;p It is usually me who runs of the battlefield screaming, unless I outnumber the AI. Especially when fighting the Gauls with one of the Roman factions. Well, I guess I'm just not good at this game... it's about time that I start facing the truth, lol. :smiley:
I don't know what it is but I just can't seem to manage to hold off the charging Gauls.... They just run into my lines and a few seconds later: too bad, it's over, there he goes my dear old Flavius Julius screaming for his mom. I _do_ beat them when I outnumber them, but that's hardly an accomplishment, now is it?
The only factions I managed to beat (even when outnumbered) are the Macedonians and Greeks, and the Thracians got some beating too. But I got way more casualties at the end of the battles against the Thracians (guess it's them falxmen who do it).
So...well, I guess I should try and practise more custom battles (did so this evening and lost three consecutive battles against Gauls; lost a custom siege battle Greeks-Julii too)... and read and study the strategy guides better and more...
And now :charge:
PS. One positive side: at least I keep my games "fun". I am _not_ walking over the AI so this games proves to be a real challenge to me ~;p
I'll assume you're playing as one of the Roman factions.
If so do you put your cohorts ,or what ever HI your using in hold formation?
I ask this because the only time Gauls walked through my lines ,is when I forgot to do this.
Usually ,even if the enemy does get through my lines ,in hold position ,it will still take a while.Time at least to get some cav on the flanks ,if possible.
On topic ,I usually win against the AI ,but still have to be careful ,because it can pull a something out of the hat now and again.And I've learned to be extra careful with an experienced army.Experience and a good general ,is a deadly combo.
In my armenian campaign recently, Susa was sieged by the seleucids. I had 1 unit of archers and 6 horse archers. The siegers were 20 militia/levy/phalanx pikemen. They lined up nice and orderly and parked just barely in range of my wooden towers. I left everyone but 2 units of horse cavalry in the palisade and sallied them out. I started pulling units off the battle line and catching them in a cross fire. After I had destroyed 3 units I was out of arrows across the board with 35+ minutes left in the battle and the AI having no siege equipment. So I began cycling horse archers in and out of the fortress. I'd lure one phalanx towards a tired horse archer unit, and slam into its rear with a fresh one. The militias/levy would break almost instantly which allowed for me to easily destroy them. I had focused all my firepower on the few phalanx pikemen early.
The end result was 1 surviver for the seluecids and I had taken 5 casualties, I think mostly from units overlapping and firing. In anycase, it took the better part of an hour to fight this battle, it was horribly tedious and the AI was terribly stupid. By the time the AI had decided it was time to retreat, it had about 5 highly depleted units left and I had sallied forth and simply rode them down with my horse archers.
They really need to tell the AI that, IF defender sallies and IF we have no siege equipment = RETREAT. It was totally absurd. Did I mention it was absurd? Ya it was absurd ;p
They really need to tell the AI that, IF defender sallies and IF we have no siege equipment = RETREAT. It was totally absurd. Did I mention it was absurd? Ya it was absurd ;p
I don't agree. If I am the besieger and have not constructed any seige equipment when the defender sallied I wouldn't retreat. I would consider it a gift from the Gods and make mincemeat of the garrison.
The issue you are highlighting is the same one mentioned elsewhere, namely that the AI does not handle the tactical situations very well.
It should have lured your cavalry away from the walls, cut off their retreat and then close in and annihilated them not chased them back and forth under the city walls.
The other mistake the AI made was in choosing an army composition with no missile or light trops to cover its phalanxes. But then your army was equally imbalanced by being totally without infantry. The difference was that you being human knew how to exploit the werakness of the AI whereas the AI had no knowledge at all of how to expliot yours.
I agree with you, but I maintain in this circumstance retreat was the only viable option or simply staying outside of tower range, which allows me to sally my cavalry out to harass/isolate infantry. So again, i'd say retreating was the only logical choice in this situation ;p
I agree with you, but I maintain in this circumstance retreat was the only viable option or simply staying outside of tower range, which allows me to sally my cavalry out to harass/isolate infantry. So again, i'd say retreating was the only logical choice in this situation ;p
Oh! I don't know.
What if the situation were reversed and you have 20 units of pikemen against four units of Horse Archers?
These horsemen have limited arrows remember so they can only do so much damage at a distance.
I think what I would try and do is form my infantry in a large crescent but withdrawing the centre of an extended line. I would try and lure the cavalry into the centre of the crescent and whilst they peppered my central infantry close in with those units on the flanks to try and cut them off from the town.
If they notice the threat and break out of the circle then I would just repeat the process, if they attacked on flank I would pvot on the flank again intent on cutting off their retreat and encircling them.
I would lose a lot of men initially but with 20 units they will run out of arrows before I run out of pikemen. At that point they either have to make it back into the city which by now I have hopefully prevented or they attack H2H, either way I should get some revenge.
Horse Archers are very adept at breaking miltia/levy pikemen with a single charge to the flank or rear. It takes about 2 charges to break Phalanx Pikes however.
Also consider, by the time I run out of arrows, you will have suffered massive casualties which will be putting a hit on your morale. In truth most militia/levy units that are around 60% strength or less break the moment the horse archers even approach them.
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