Sapping

[soibean]

Just wondering...
When to use it
How to use it

[SIcilian]

well sapping is when you dig a big tunnel under the ground and knock down the enemy walls. I generally use it when the enemy has many men on the walls. But... never have a seige tower or ladders in the line of the tunnel as they will be destroyed. I use heavily armored troops to man the saps as when the troops are going into the tunnel they tend to get shot alot.



:nice: :rifle:

your guys the enemy




sicilian fencer
:duel: en garde

[Doug-Thompson]

I use it every time possible.

Only some infantry units can build and use saps.

When you go to the battle map, you'll see some covered holes in the ground. The computer places them. You don't. Select an infantry unit and hold the cursor over the convered holes. You'll see a doorway icon. Click then, and you'll see the unit run to the covered hole and start "burrowing" to the wall. It reminds me of those Bugs Bunny cartoons: "I knew I should have taken that left turn at Albuquerque."

Don't get nervous just because it takes time, and the clock is running. When the sappers are done, a big section of wall will collapse. Walk right in with the unit of your choice and take the town. Also, the infantry unit that did the sapping will appear out of the original covered hole entrance and be available for duty.

[Sin Qua Non]

If I'm using a cavalry heavy army, I usually sap at several points to get them through and away from the wall, and on their way to the city center. I've not been successful with causing any casualties via sapping; they either aren't under the sap point, or they move out of the way (smart). just remember to get some infantry up the walls to silence the towers.

Sapping is also seems equally effective on all kinds of stone walls. There probably should be some kind of failure risk on large and epic walls. I mean, were sap points always 100% effective? Just because a wall collapses doesn't mean it topples completely, and people can't always get over the rubble.

[hoof]

Sapping's good, but ladders are faster, and the AI almost never counters your ladder team's movements (making it very easy to assault an undefended section of wall).

Rarely does the AI defend more than one gate with sufficient troops. Thus a couple ladder teams at each of two gates, virtually guarantees a quick capture of a gate, and in your army will go.

[Lord Ovaat]

Ladders aren't long enough for the bigger walls. And to answer another question, yes, sapping is way overpowered in this game. It was a difficult thing to do, let alone do well.

[Quillan]

I caused casualties one time with sapping, but it was a combination effort. I had sent an infantry unit up the wall farther down with ladders to capture two towers that were going to control the route into town from the sap point. When I did, an armored hoplite unit went marching down to engage them. That unit was passing over the wall when it collapsed. ~:cheers:

[Maltz]

Sapping alone doesn't do any good because the arrow towers were killing machines. Siege tower + sapping is the way to go. Using a siege tower to send up troops to capture the arrow towers just beside the sapping point, then one can easily pass the entire army through. :balloon2:

[Doug-Thompson]

Sapping alone doesn't do any good because the arrow towers were killing machines. Siege tower + sapping is the way to go. Using a siege tower to send up troops to capture the arrow towers just beside the sapping point, then one can easily pass the entire army through. :balloon2:

Or just gallop through the sap with cataphracts.

Parthians aren't all that popular and have weak siege, but I've been amazed at how well they can take a town with heavily armored, fast (compared to infantry) cataphracts. They can get out of tower range and into the town quickly. If there are enemy spears about, Persian cavalry horse archers take care of those.

I really need to confirm that post about how cataphracts can use the mace as their alt-attack, which has a bonus against armored troops.

[Bhruic]

Of course, if you really want to do it right, you use cataphract archers from Armenia. Great armour, so few takedowns from the towers, decent hand-to-hand, should they need it, but archery to handle any slow units.

Having played both Parthia and Armenia, I prefer Armenia, although I like Parthia's starting location.

Bh

[LordKhaine]

I agree that the Parthians are greatly underrated for sieges. Your war elephants can deal with wooden walls no problem. And you can always sap through walls with a few mercenary units. And if you're really needing some help with sieges, remember Parthia can make onagers. Towers are very easy to take out with onagers I find (though gate houses are a lot tougher).

But back to the topic... sapping is hugely powerful. I rarely bother using ladders and siege towers now, it's easier to sap through and bundle in with your shock troops. You can then move infantry in to clear the towers if need be. Sap points should use up far more build points, it's too easy now to simply make a bunch of sap points in a turn and attack. Sapping, while powerful, was hugely time consuming in real life.

[Bhruic]

I use to always use just sapping, but that was with mostly cavalry armies (with mercenaries to handle the saps). Infantry is too slow getting through the holes, and will get shot up by the towers.

Plus, in my Thrace game, I found the computer was pretty stupid about choosing the sap points. Put them on opposite walls of a corner tower. So once the walls went down, the tower was impossible to capture, as you couldn't get there (and no "door", as it was a corner). I decided to reload that one, as there was no way I could get my army through without taking heavy losses. If I get stuck with that situation again, I'll use the siege tower first, and do the saps after.

Bh

[Brucca]

Had a sap collapse on the sapping unit causing 80% casualties and loss of sap. Ticked off because I had used Praetorians - note to self: use cheap expendable infantry to sap :furious3: .

[aw89]

didn't know they could colapse... it makes sense though.

[Ziu]

Yes, when you are defending you can direct you archers to fire on the sap entry point (using fire of course). As with the rams and towers it will hopefully take damage and collapse.

[econ21]

I don't like sapping - the towers can really cut up your infantry when they come through the hole (unless you can sap under a tower and destroy it - can you?). I lost half a unit of hastati first time I tried it. The units following will also get peppered. Plus you have to repair the wall, which is trivial but annoying.

I much prefer siege towers. You lose virtually no men in approach and often can quickly take the walls, so you lose virtually no men from being on the walls. I use three - one goes for the gates, the other two clear out the towers either side and turn them against the defenders. You can then run your main army through the gates without being shot at by towers. You are also attacking from three directions - the gates and the two towers either side.

However, I have not stormed very heavily defended large cities - I can see if there are lots of good troops on the wall, the towers may be less good. Usually my longer range archers can take down most of the troops on the walls before the towers unload.

[KyodaiSteeleye]

so captured towers start shooting at the defenders?

[econ21]

so captured towers start shooting at the defenders?

Yup - seems that way to me. However, they don't do that much damage - the AI tends to move off, out of range. But that's good too - its give you a little breathing room to get inside the city. Unfortunately, as soon as you start to enter, the AI seems to rush back to confront you and combat is so chaotic, I can't tell what damage the towers are doing - but they keep firing.

[reddog11]

i use sapping everytime in combination with the Onagers. I usually have 4 Onagers in an attacking army. Quickly take out the tower near the SAP point so that when your men are going into the tunnel they arent under constant arrow fire. Then, when all the towers are down switch the Onagers to attacking the walls where the sap point will hit. This cuts down the time that the sapping will take once it reaches the walls.