My resignation from moderating the Dungeon [Archive]

View Full Version : My resignation from moderating the Dungeon

Duke John

10-29-2004, 13:43

tombom

10-29-2004, 14:14

This may come as a surprise, but while I do have reasons I will not explain them here since I don't want to be accused of complaining, CA bashing or whining.

I don't know who the next moderator will be, but you will hopefully found that out soon enough.

I wish you all the best of luck with your modifications and I hope that this community continues working together so admirable as it has done in the past.

:medievalcheers:
This is a shame. You were a great mod (and modder) DJ. I expect you have good reasons for your resignation. I do wonder who will take over (thinks about good people in the community...).

CBR

10-29-2004, 14:27

Sad to see you go Duke John ~:mecry:

I plan to wait for the patch and see what that brings. Although I dont have high hopes, its the only thing left.

CBR

Soulflame

10-29-2004, 14:53

You were a great mod (and modder) DJ.

I think he's just laying down his function as moderator, not the modding of games, right? If you stop modding, the end is nigh!

Duke John

10-29-2004, 16:14

Thanks for letting know that I at least did my job right :grin:

I just have to get it of my chest. Since I'm not that interested in the ancient period I mainly bought the game for the engine. CA said we would get a very moddable game. So I expected at least the same moddability as M:TW - VI. So when I got it I immediately started browsing through the files; PAK, CAS, IDX, RWM extensions? What the hell? Luckily Vercingetorix and Midnight discovered how to edit those. This week I went through the files again; more CAS files unopenable by the CAS editor, ITEM files for buildings, animation still unpossible to mod.

So can we expect CA to give us tools to make the game at last very moddable? From what I have read they are giving us a battlemap editor and perhaps a sprite generator. Not enough to make total conversions. So does the community need to wait for Vercingetorix to crack all those files? Do we need to buy an expansion? Well, I'm not gonna wait for that. My ME:TW beta mod has over 30.000 downloads, it's hosted at most of major download sites, it got a couple of good reviews in gaming magazines. Wasn't that enough for CA to show that mods do sell games?

The TW modding community is in top gear, the speed of how quick mods are released shows that. Then why did CA had to bring us back to cruising speed? Publishing a good game is nice, but if that game is accompanied with excellent total conversions within a few months wouldn't that be far better? You can see all over the internet that more and more people are able to put out professional quality grahics and modifications.

When CA said the game would be very moddable, I expect that they realized that they made a whole bunch of file unknown extentions. The logical consequence would be that they would make a list of tools that the modding community needs. This wasn't the case as the discovered editor interfaces weren't made for us they were made for the developers. A possible release of the sprite generator sounded like a, "oh yeah, those things, yeah perhaps we will release that". When I brought up wether CA would release CAS editors they reacted "We need to first discuss that." They hadn't even talked about us being able to make new models! That is surely the base of a game being very moddable?!?

I wanted to make a total conversion. How long do I need to wait before I have the tools? If the next TW release is over 2 years, is it worth waiting 1 year before the modders have cracked all the file types? Perhaps new modders may think so, but I think that I'm capable of modding everything in the game provided I have the tools. 1 year waiting is then very long sit and I have came to realize that it's not worth the time.

Note that I having personal against the CA employees who come here. I sometimes get the feeling that they want to give us alot more than they are allowed to.

So no, I won't modding this game anymore although I do loved to. And because of that I will stop moderating the Dungeon.

CBR
Patch 1.2 will come soon and hopefully they will fix the controls and MP lobby so that I can at least enjoy a few games. The games I had in M:TW with the Mizu clan were one of the best games I had and I remember them dearly. It's sad to read that so many of your clan are leaving.

tombom

10-29-2004, 17:10

I understand how you feel. It is very annoying. I mod other games (well, only the paradox ones ~:D) and the only reason I do that is that they're pretty moddable (except the maps).

SpencerH

10-29-2004, 18:53

Duke John

We dont dont know one another online yet so I hope you'll take this in the friendly spirit in which its posted.

I understand, to some extent, your frustration with the inability to mod RTW out of the box. Before I read this thread, I posted a comment/question along the same lines as your concerns (in the thread about modding questions). I think you are making a mistake, however, by not remaining as a moderator here. Sites like this are a huge boon for the players of the games these sites support. Many players who are trying to deal with the many bugs/glitches/setup errors found in most games would be lost without the resources these sites provide. After all, what does one expect to learn at the official sites. A moderator of the modding threads who is more than 'just familiar' with the process of modifying games benefits the entire community. Building a TW mod must be an enormous task (much more than I'm willing to take on with some civ modding under my belt). Moderating these threads is an invaluable service to us all, even to those who dont (and wont ever) mod themselves. I think you should view it in that light, and change your mind.

dj jones

10-30-2004, 02:58

I have only been here a few days, but your posts / insights have been excellent, and I for one hope you change your mind. Despite the (so far) limited support given to us by CA, the 'must know' question thread that was answered by that cool CA employee (forget the name) at least shows that they are interested in what the modding community wants - but you know the deal, its the suits who never play games that make the decisions.

And unfortunately, those suits will never know about the trials and tribs that we gamers go through just to get their games playing 'the way we want' to play them - so if you are leaving in spite, it really wont get anyone's attention over there, and will hurt the community that you have helped build. If you are leaving simply because you would rather mod Medieval, well, then, good luck with that and I look forward to playing your mods!

Hope you reconsider!

dessa14

10-30-2004, 03:10

yes the moddibility of this latest game, is really dissappointing.
i love the paradox games..
i reckon CA should have released the Source if they wanted to make it hard to mod without it.
look at HL why was it so successful for so many years, the fact they could mod the entire game, and people did, they created new flavours for the game that kept people into it for years.
thanks,
dessa

Spino

10-30-2004, 04:14

This may come as a surprise, but while I do have reasons I will not explain them here since I don't want to be accused of complaining, CA bashing or whining.

I don't know who the next moderator will be, but you will hopefully found that out soon enough.

I wish you all the best of luck with your modifications and I hope that this community continues working together so admirable as it has done in the past.

:medievalcheers:

~:confused: :no: ~:eek:

Shane, come back! Come back, Shane! I don't want you to leave!

SHAAAAAAAAAAANNNNEEEE!!!

The samnite

10-30-2004, 04:56

Well, from the short time I've been here you have done a great job DJ. Good luck on whatever you plan on doing otherwise.

I totally agree on your appraisal of the mod situation. Mods are the only way everyone (or at least a large part of gamers) can be happy and the lack of CA support is frustrating. I also agree that the CA guys that post here aren't necessarily the ones holding it back. The reason being I have never seen them respond to this very issue. Seems like their tongues are being tied. :sad:

Auf Wiedersehen, DJ.

Voigtkampf

10-31-2004, 11:32

I just saw this thread, and I am amazed to read this… Duke John you are - now I am compelled to say were - one of the Org’s finest. This comes as a total surprise to me. I will miss you, champ.

Dark Age has come.

dessa14

10-31-2004, 11:43

yes the .Org modding community is just about to enter its dark age, with the lack of modding capability in in Rome and the loss of a modding great....
the failure of the Dungeon is underway.
thanks,
dessa

Crazed Rabbit

10-31-2004, 16:40

A sad day indeed. You were a great moderator. I understand your frustration, however.

Will you still be working on your mods for M:TW? Like METW and the Two Crowns mod? I know many people would download the METW mod.

But, good luck whatever you do.

Crazed Rabbit

Red Harvest

10-31-2004, 20:40

Sorry to hear this. I thought you were doing a fine job.

JR-

11-01-2004, 09:55

will you bend that talent back towards M:TW? there are a lot of good mods in need of assistance that may grind to an untimely halt as a result of the release of R:TW...........

metatron

11-01-2004, 10:19

Sorry to see you go John, I never really modded much in MTW, but you always were a class act and a breathing concordance of all modding.

Myrddraal

11-01-2004, 11:19

Its a real real shame. Relative to u, I have been here a very short time but I've never seen you make a mistake, in moderating or modding. If you must resign, don't leave the org completely. Don't give up on us...

JR-

11-01-2004, 12:35

what does this do to Sengoku Jidai?

Duke John

11-01-2004, 17:48

Thank you all for the warm responses, they are much appreciated :bow:

There has been some replies in which it was suggested to keep moderating or hang around in the Dungeon. It's nice to hear that my presence is so appreciated, but I'm quitting with TW for a very large part. Just today I was still tinkering about a medieval mod. But after thinking it a bit through I realized that even if I had finished it, I wouldn't play the mod as during the modding proces I would have lost all appetite to play the game. All the hours put into that mod would have gone to waste. The games and mods have given me enough fun and satisfaction, but it is time for me to move on. I want to continue developing my graphical skills and together with my study I really don't want to put more time into modding.

I will stick around at the Org, probably showing off my drawings and making other useless smilies :medievalcheers: :rtwyes: :barrel: :tongueg:

To end this a bit more posivitively, I got a PM from Vercingetorix and while I will not blow the surprise, it certainly is another marvelous breakthrough!

Cheers,
DJ

Turin

11-01-2004, 19:02

Can't wait for the surprise; animations?

Also, Duke, about those Sengoku files you have...

Any chance you can release the campaign map plus whatever other stuff you had managed to put out?

discovery1

11-02-2004, 01:18

We are all sorry to see you go and you will be greatly missed. Farewell.

Myrddraal

11-02-2004, 13:21

A sad day for the Modding comunity here and a sad day for me. Hang around the modding forums, even if you don't mod yourself, you can still help out those who need it.

JR-

11-02-2004, 14:46

and what about Sengoku Jidai.......................?

kaiserjaffa

11-03-2004, 05:03

oh bugger! I was a texture artist for that sengoku mod? I dont get it ? if u can edit the units? and the campaign map? then everything else (by the time u get that done) would come piece by piece, i can understand that u are frustrated duke john, but i hope in time u will reconsider, as the opportunities the RTW engine far outway those offered before.

Psyco

11-03-2004, 06:26

This makes me very sad. Although I have never been a big modder, I have always enjoyed the new mods everyone came out with. To see a veteran modder "resign in disgust" makes me feel as though the CA let us down. I hope that you stay at the Org, even if you give up Mod-hood

Encaitar

11-04-2004, 14:56

Sorry to hear it DJ. Best of luck mate.

ah_dut

11-06-2004, 18:03

Bye Bye mate, the dark ages of TW modding have come....

Duke John

11-06-2004, 22:09

I'm touched by your replies, thanks.

I've also got friendly support from my fellow moderators. And after some thinking about their comments I came to realize that I have tried to run the Dungeon for too long on my own. So I need help and if I can succeed in that I might stick around a bit longer.

:worried:

Silver Rusher

11-06-2004, 22:16

Me?

dclare4

11-07-2004, 05:53

Hi Duke John,

That's really sad particularly coming from you. I just got RTW and yeah the whole thing is really kind of confusing. Its actually almost a totally different game from the previous ones w/c is both good and bad. There are a lot of things that were improved over MTW, diplomacy particularly but I think its because of its being so different from the two previous games is what makes it so seemingly inaccessible. Maybe it will just take time to figure out everything and the thought that everything is a 3D model w/c is moddable with simple 3D Studio with anims taken care of by the engine is worlds easier for the simple modder to do I think (though it is limited by the animations that are available).

One problem is what if the anim you need is not included? Or the unit type you need? For instance in the Sengoku Jidai mod or if you wanted to mod a medieval mod (and a Medieval game with the Rome engine would be super particularly given the improved diplomacy) is the 'musketeer loading' animation included? Or a 'crossbowman loading'? What if you wanted to make a crusade or jihad piece? Does the game still recognize these?

I think the problem stems from the promise that this game will be the most moddable. It certainly looks like it has the potential to be the most moddable of the series but like you said without the proper tools and without knowing where the sandtraps are hidden (like you mentioned unopenable CAS files or some colors not being valid for provinces, etc) it certainly can't live up to that.

again so sorry to hear that,
Clare

Meneldil

11-07-2004, 10:30

The diplomacy mostly sucks in game, because the AI is more stupid than ever.

VikingHorde

11-07-2004, 17:50

@Duke John

My view on RTW is that it doesn't have the same effect on me as MTW had. When I got MTW a little over 2 years ago, I played constantly for 2 months only leaving my computer when going to school, eating or sleeping. I have barely played RTW for a week seens I got it and I don't find it half as fun as when I got MTW 2 years ago. I then started to mod RTW, but the limits of RTW is irritating taking out a lot of fun of modding. I'm beginning to mis the MTW days, but I'm praying for a patch that will make RTW more modable and take away some of the limits. I like modding and would like to continue modding, but only time will tell (or CA) if modding will get better. I hope you will stay around here in the future. If you need more moderators to help you out, then you should nominate some more.

~:cheers:

JR-

11-07-2004, 18:12

tombom

11-07-2004, 18:37

Vercingetorix

11-07-2004, 22:55

What are the current modding limitations? No strat map editor? I never modded with MTW so I don't really know what could be done with mtw that cannot be done with RTW. Btw, I released the latest version of the cas plugin which supports animation a few days ago but forgot to post news here :p

Encaitar

11-08-2004, 01:58

The lack of the strat map editor is a major pain (doing things manually is much more complex, time consuming, and buggy. And doesn't look as good either), but it's not a hard limit. Not being able to add new factions hurts a lot. As does the CTD when you click on the faction info button if you've created a new campaign.

The frustrating thing is that some of the modding issues we have (e.g. adding new factions) are the same that we had back in MTW, but were then resolved with VI. So we've actually gone backwards in some respects in terms of modability from where we were.

TosaInu

11-08-2004, 12:25

Hello,

I started modest modding when the STW alpha demo was released in winter 2000. My experience is that it's quite frequently tough to get your fingers under it. The most frustrating thing being that should doesn't equal is.

The possibilities were seemingly extremely limited in the STW days. Now I see that more was possible back then if only I had tried this or that simple thing, even things that were claimed impossible.

RTW is very different from STW and MTW. The old fan made tools don't (?)work, knowledge gathered for MTW will probably not work. We'll have to start again, that can be frustrating but I also think we'll find new stuff. We'll undoubtly run into some limits, that is good as we can then start an explicit discussion with CA about improving this. Knowing that we want to mod is one thing, how we want it is another. I guess that we'll see more and more fantools, also some official editor(s), that the knowledge will grow and also that RTW itself will become more stable.

I made a historical battle for STW and couldn't get it how I wanted it to be, it kept crashing. Very frustrating. A patch cured some graphical limitation and my battle worked. I'm sure we're experiencing similar problems with RTW now.

Modding Totalwar was at its infantry in those days, especially compared to the great things achieved now and there are many talented people now (I was just a persistent, sometimes lucky, donkey).

RTW might be a step back in some areas compared to MTW, modding wise. It may just be different and tucked away. I'm not sure whether RTW is of the same developing age as VI, that may also explain why some VI improvements aren't there yet.

I think it pays to use what's available, learn and specify in one CA feedback topic what's needed. My experience is that CA reads those suggestions and tries their best to incorporate it or spoils beans about ways to get it done. Maybe today, maybe tomorrow or perhaps next month.

tombom

11-08-2004, 18:08

I'm probably just going along with the crowd (rare for me...).

There's just something about Rome. I don't know what. It's probably me expecting too much. I love moddability, and when you get told a game is going to be very moddable, I expect it to be. If it doesn't improve after an expansion pack, I'll lose faith. Rome is still a fun game to play though.

Renown

11-09-2004, 07:11

Tis sad to see you go.

I have lurked around for a long time, here and else where in the TW realm.

The one name I really came to know, was yours. It was everywhere, and some may say (or at least I do), that you have been a very large component of helping keep TW alive.

Yet, though you leave, I'm sure you will go on to do other things, may I point out to you, other moddable games that have proven to be great in the past (cough, HL2...) I'm sure that someone with your genius could pull off something worth while, though FPS, it has a great engine, that, unlike CA, has a very large emphasis on modding.

Good luck with whatever you do, and as I am just making an appearance here, don't skip out for ever.