Diplomacy-What do you think?

[Salfin]

I have played this game almost every day sinse it has come out, and have been very very disillusioned by the diplomacy. Now at first, with previews, developer interviews, and finally getting the game I saw the new diplomatic features as a way to add a new level to the game. Afterall, one of the most important part of politics and wars, are allies. Things can be accomplished alone, but truely great things can be accomplished when others work in unison.

After recently playing through as Carthage, I saw the diplomatic system (in my opinion) for what it really was, icing on an otherwise bitter cake. I vaguely remember alliances in MTW to be very dynamic, in so far as they didn't matter one bit. You allies would turn around and attack you as quickly as any enemy did, and it didn't really matter who's daughter was married to whos son. Unfortunatly, it seems very much the same in this game. Alliances can be shattered without any good tactical, strategic, or logical reason. The said alliance can be completely beneficial, and breaking it could mean certain doom, and the AI will happily break the alliance for no reason but to cause war for the sake *of* war.

It goes a little further then this when you play through as the Romans. I noticed as I made allies whenever I could, that the SPQR was constantly causing me to break alliances, and it didn't bother me, except when it was esspecially foolish to do so, and yet the senate would *demand* it be done.

Here's a bit of furtherproof about the diplomacy system. I want to sell Carthage my map. Carthage responds that it will buy my map from me for a huge sum ( i usually sell them for about 500 or so), and that I must accept it or be attacked. It's just idiotic:

www.imagedump.com/index.c...&tp=144263


Anyway....I haven't played enough to see all of what the diplomatic system can do. I also wonder if I am just approaching this wrongly, and there is a way to keep allies that I am unaware of. So if anyone has any diplomatic experiences that are interested, or affected their view of the game in a good, or a bad way, I'd like to hear them.

[Salfin]

Arg my picture doesn't seem to be working and seeing as I can't edit I'll have to spam. Here's another go:

http://www.imagedump.com/index.cgi?pick=get&tp=144263

[Empedocles]

I play as the Brutii and have conquered almost Dacia and Asia Minor, so I have enveloped the Thracians who have three provinces. I sent a diplomatic asking for their map information (cause they have plenty of ships in the black sea) and they will not give it to me without reason!
In fact, they want me to let their armies pass trhough my territory and the offer...60 denaries!!!! IT'S a Joke!!!
And I have the best relationship with them! (I'm planing to make them my protectorade!)
Ok, that was about it, I'm also complainig about how easy is to bribe any army!

Diego, from Argentina

[Oaty]

It takes getting use to. An easy way to tell if your going to have a strong alliance from the beginning is to offer map info for map info along with the alliance. If they accept and do'nt counter offer making you pay for thiers while they get your map info for free, then they are hardup for the alliance.

[Tamur]

You usually sell map info for 500? Try getting 5000, and you'll see that the Carthaginians offer is pretty mediocre. You can seriously pad your treasury exclusively by selling Map Info early in the game to your neighbours. Once you hit a faction who has significantly different map information than you, they will start paying much less, or trying to charge 7000 denarii for theirs.

Also, the Accept or... condition is because your map is valuable to them. It will help them plan attacks on your faction, since the computer factions use only the map info they have to make moves.

Re: the rest of the diplomacy system, part of it is simply patience. Check out this post (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=618850&postcount=61) in the Diplomacy thread in the Colloseum. It can take several turns to get a faction "warmed up" to the idea of an alliance, and alliances do last. I and many others have had alliances last 50 to 100+ years. It's a matter of building relationships with factions rather than simply marching in and demanding an alliance, then forgetting about them. Such an alliance is sure to break with the slightest provocation.

[Khuyildar]

Where can I see what kind of relationship I have with other factions? Is that info available in-game or only in the files?

Anyway, I don't usually bother with diplomacy. I build a few diplomats on the first turns and go sell maps with them, and along with the map deals I offer alliances to everyone.

[Silver Rusher]

I agree that the AI's lust for map info is a bit overboard, but once you start to understand the many levels of diplomacy to the game it becomes one of the best points in playing.

[Silver Rusher]

OK, and now I notice what is really happening here. I have one thing to say- you are lucky the carthaginians didn't attack you in the first place. They ALWAYS attack the greeks in Syracuse, no matter what happens.

[Oaty]

Also, the Accept or... condition is because your map is valuable to them. It will help them plan attacks on your faction, since the computer factions use only the map info they have to make moves.

So when the Egyptians payed 23k they were really investing for a major offensive against me.

I think map info is a bit overpowered. I really do'nt think it should be sold for than 1k and maybe upt 5k in rare instances

[Salfin]

OK, and now I notice what is really happening here. I have one thing to say- you are lucky the carthaginians didn't attack you in the first place. They ALWAYS attack the greeks in Syracuse, no matter what happens.

They did attack me anyway. I caught them while there army was on its way over, and it didn't even stop when I agreed to the "terms of peace".

I knew *why* it told me that, factions always do seem to put that "or else" into deals with me when they are about to attack me. I just think it's an incredably stupid thing to say, that they'll give me more money then I want and that I must accept that sum, or they will attack.

[Ptah]

The diplomacy does seem a little feather-brained.. but amazingly, sometimes, it works. Especially when your faction is powerful.

Interestingly, in my German campaign, my German factions became a powerhouse without ever leaving or expanding my initial terrioty. What I did was basically play defensive, and up the tech levels with money earned from the map salesmen. However, when the treasury gets low I would form a pillaging army, and go attacking the Gauls. Never conquered anything, but attacked and sacked their cities for years, and then returned home.

Now, after I repeat this for some 100 years, eventually the Gauls and Britons became weak. Before launching another pillagin party, I decided to send some diplomats and threaten them a bit. And what do you know - I got me a 500 denari per turn for 40 turns(20 years) tribute from the Gauls, and made them my allies, and they've been faithful ever since. In the same way I've put the Britons under my control. Ofcourse, the Romans never ever surrender, so nowadays I send pillagers to attack the Italian province every now and then.

[moksha]

I don't usually make all that much from selling map info, but like Ptah's approach in the previous thread find that a long term approach gives more believable/less mad results.
I do find that beyond a certain point there is no recovery from a bad rep - so no matter how mighty no-one will agree to anything no matter how much time elapses.

[Doug-Thompson]

The only game I've ever played that had better diplomacy was Civ III, but that game's diplomacy model was pretty predictable. No surprizes.

I hear Galactic Civilizations has outstanding diplomacy. I should know. I have the game. Someday, if I ever stop playing R:TW, I'll try GC.

[lismore]

Have you ever noticed how the AI uses one faction to prop up anotrher through diplomacy? In my Julii campaign I had the Gauls down to two cities and two forts, but they seemed to be able to raise large armies of forresters, chosen swordsmen and barbarian mercernaries. always beat them but was not strong enough to march on their cities-they seemed to be doing better financially even though I had 10 cities. Then my spy rumbled what was going on. Spanish and dacian diplomats were providing them with money. A few turns later they both attacked. The Ai can be quite clever. I think a GAul diplomat also persuaded carthage to invade!?! The Scippii and Brutii were pouding Greece, macedonia and crete and were at peace with Carthage, anyway they landed near segesta with 1X round shield cav, 2X militia, 1 general and 1 elephant unit! The surprise! They didnt last long but it was nice to see the Ai being clever. I also had a general bribed by a gAul diplomat- I hunted down the traitor scum and killed him.

Lismore

[Tamur]

I hear Galactic Civilizations has outstanding diplomacy. I should know. I have the game. ...

hehehe! Let us know how it goes. I'm interested to find good examples of non-battle AI.