Gate oil effectiveness

[hoof]

I'm now of the opinion that either a) gate oil needs to be toned down, or b) the AI needs to be adjusted when attacking stone walls when a spy has opened a door.

I was fighting the Egyptians when a full stack of theirs laid siege to a city I had that had regular stone walls. Apparantly they had a spy in my city because when they attacked, the gates were open. They had built four ladders, and two siege towers. Seeing the gate was opened, they dropped everything and charged en-masse through the gate. I had one unit of phalanx pikemen defending the gate (the rest of my guys were on the walls to repel the towers/ladders).

Well what happened was rather astonishing. More oil came out of the oil drains above the gate than come out of Saudi Arabia on an average day. They lost 1300 soldiers, of which only 500 or so were killed by my guys. My pikemen only had to deal with a few guys at a time, who were usually routing before reaching the pikepoints, as their teammates were roasted alive. I think the pikemen had only a few dozen kills to their name, the rest were the pair of archer units on the walls and the Greek Cavalry that I charged after the fleeing enemies when the "Run for the hills" calls started.

This is rather silly, IMO. Either the oil dumpage needs to be reduced in frequency (I think it was coming out every 5 seconds or so), or the AI needs to ignore gates when assaulting stone walls.

Or, option #3 would be to disable the oil when the gates are left open by spies. Why would a spy sabotage the gates, but leave the oil system in working order? Unless he was a double-agent ... hadn't thought of that ...

[Red Harvest]

I've only played on VH, but I could not get past the gates when they were dumping oil IF there were any defenders in the area (no matter how feeble those defenders were.) I took hundreds of losses and basically wiped out a good size, quality army that way. I've not tried the gates since. It is a lot more powerful than in MTW! That is not all bad, I always thought the gates were too easy to storm in MTW. However, I would be inclined toward thinking the current effect is overdone. Perhaps they are more reasonable on medium?

[IrishMike]

Hmm..... lucky people. The oil in my game seems to be underheated. It only takes one unit of spearmen to open any gate in my game and they only take on average of 80 looses.

Not sure what is different.........

[Siris]

I do not think that even if the spy opens the gates, that the oil should end. The spy is not up there, being one of the men that dumps the oil, those guys, are still there, dispite the fact that the gate is open.

I think the oil is a tad too strong, but not by far; but the gates themselves, are too strong. Of course in those days, the oil at the gate would be that powerful; the idea is to repel any enemies that are trying to break through at that point of defense.

[TF923]

Hmm..... lucky people. The oil in my game seems to be underheated. It only takes one unit of spearmen to open any gate in my game and they only take on average of 80 looses.

Not sure what is different.........

They're saying if the gate is defended, then the oil makes a huge difference because the morale hit from both the oil plus the pikemen at the same time is too much for most soldiers to take. If the gate is not defended, then yes you can waltz in as you say, (if you're willing to take a few losses on the way through).

Personally, I don't like to throw my men's lives away so I always build seige equipment for stone walls, even if the spy had the doors for me.

The AI would have to make a decision on the spot based on whether the gate is defended, and even what kind of units are defending behind the gate. (Not all unit types would have the same morale effect as a line of prepared spearmen.) So it's not as simple as you think for the AI to make that decision, but at the same time I've seen the AI make some pretty sophisticated decisions in open-field battles. They just need to extend that sophistication to seige assaults as well.

[Sin Qua Non]

The only real problem I have with oil is that there is seemingly no end to it. I learned that lesson early. It's not worthwhile to gatebreak sotne walls or higher. The AI doesn't really put up a hug fight on the walls, so I usually go over, secure the gatehouse, then let the gang in.

[Vlad Tzepes]

Well what happened was rather astonishing. More oil came out of the oil drains above the gate than come out of Saudi Arabia on an average day.

This puzzles me as well - they seem to have freight trains of oil and a fabulous boiling machine up there, in those gate towers. What do they use - a nuclear plant? :dizzy2:

Even if a spy opens the gates, rushing through them if they're not captured yet is a no-no, due to oil deep fried losses. I always use siege equipment to scale the walls and capture the gates.

Spy is great for wooden walls, though.

[bmolsson]

Can't you see the KFC sign on top of the gate ?? Their oil is always hot..... ~;)

[SwordsMaster]

IMO the oil isnt overpowered. MAybe less frequency could be a good point, but think about elephants. I tried. I only lost 1 elephant to oil (normal elephants, not armored beasts) and I had them knocking down the gate for a while.

I think an armored war elephant would suffer no damage at all and just go rampaging into the city.What I dont quite get is why soldiers with huge shields dont use them to protect themselves from the oil... ~:confused:

But thats a different question

[Medieval Assassin]

I haven't seen oil yet, I'd rather use ladders.

[Siris]

You got your elephants to go insdie? Mine in multiplayer, always just, stay on the outside, wont go inside...

I was thinking, that if I could get the gate's open, and sucessfully get elephants inside, it'd be like this, say, vs. SPQR at the Roman gates:

Roman Commander: (the men lined up by the gate, because the ram has been battering it, and its about to be opened) You are soliders of Rome, no matter what comes through that gate, you will stand your ground.

Gate is thrown open, and suddenly, (at least) four armoured elephants run in, and make the elephant noise (like a scream), charging for the Roman line.

The Roman Commander suddenly has a look of awe, shock, & terror (like Gandalf in LOTR Minas Tirith Seige, when the Trolls came in).

The elephants charge straight into the Roman line, throwning dozens of troops 50 ft. in the air, smashing many more into the walls, crushing dozens beneath their feet, and the archers shooting down upon them. (like when the trolls went in & started kicking Gonder's @$$) lol, that was the effect I wanted, but instead, the elephants just stand outside, not going in! :furious3:

[SwordsMaster]

The trick with the eles is not to order them to attack a unit, but run thru it and once all of the beasts are in the city, then you can click on attack. There seems to be some pathfinding problem when you want to move them into the city.

Personal guess is that if you click on ATTACK, they try to get in formation first (but they cant coz the gate is so narrow) so they just run around the gates getting tired and getting their pachydermian backs shot.

If you just click somewhere inside the city, they'll just get there first and then reform, which allows them to go thru the gate one at a time.

Thats what I deduced from my observations.... :charge:

[Red Harvest]

Elephants are not a valid test of oil effectiveness (nor archers.) Elephants are oddball units with high multi hit points. Plus they will penetrate most defender formations regardless. With all other units you get stuck standing their meleeing with oil pouring on you. Elephants go on through the enemy defenders, so they take some losses of their multiple hit points, but nowhere near like any other unit would. The elephant unit will be part way through before the oil even starts.

[Empedocles]

I suffered an oil devastating attack the other day trying to capture Menfis.
Egyptians had lost a serious of battles in their eastern frontier when I saw Menfis had only 320 defenders! So I decidied to take a chance with my 550 army and attacked.
I charged and their axe men were the only ones defending the gate so it took me a lot of casualties to pass them trough (they routed at the last moment and it came as a surprise for me) I inmediatly took the gate so the damn oil stop killing my men.
When I looked around I see that I had 150 men left and they were all in 7 or 6 units!!! I decidied not to retreat and by the time I reached the central plaza their general moved and made all my army retreat.

So, oil is waaaayyy too powerful in the game, but gates are just fine.
I have few questions left:

a) is a command where I can tell two units to merge and became one? Because a line of 25 legionaries is not as good as a one of 50!
b) the sapping of walls can be stopped by the defenders? Because now I only do two sapping and breach the wall! They can't stop me!

Diego, from Argentina

[Red Harvest]

There is no "on battlefield" unit merge that I am aware of.

Sap points can be destroyed although I've never seen it happen.

[Parmenio]

I've taken out saps with 'fire' archers on the wall.

I agree the problem with the oil is its seemingly unlimited ammo, and 'reload' time.

[solypsist]

the lesson is, even if the gates are open, take the time to destroy the gate itself with catapults, just to help ensure minimal losses.

[TinCow]

Notch up another one on the overpowered oil here. I made the mistake of using a spy to open the gates once on a city with 2 small units defending. I charged my cohorts through and lost about 25-40% of every single unit that went through that gate until it was captured even though there wasn't a single enemy soldier nearby. That was the first and last time I will every use spies to open doors.

[Joe Bloe]

The effect of oil on my attacking troops has varied from siege to seige. Upon ordering my army to enter a city sometimes my units will take up a very narrow column formation, perhaps 3 to 4 units across for infantry or 2 to 3 for cavalry. In this formation they will suffer much lower oil casualties (~10%) then when in a wider formation as the oil tends to burn soldiers on the sides of the column, hence the wider the column the more casualties. I really cannot say what makes them take up this narrower formation but it can allow seige battles to be waged in a less time-consuming and bloody (oily?) fashion.

In other news, greetings to all on my first post here. This is a top notch resource.

The Bloe that is Joe

[Joe Bloe]

Sorry to double-post but I thought that I would mention one more thing. When entering oil-protected gates I often order my units in one unit at a time. This may allow them to enter in the narrow column formation that I mentioned above.

The Bloe that is Joe

[TF923]

Guys the oil is not overpowered. It's perfect. If it were any less powerful there would be no point in having it.

Seige assaults are dangerous and cause a lot of casualties, period. That's the way it should be.

[DojoRat]

While I think oil is overpowered it helps balance out the overpowered sap points and onagers that the assault team has available.

[Red Harvest]

Thinking more about this, I agree that the oil should not be available when a spy opens the gates (or if available, it should be delayed for several minutes.) Why? Because the gate defenses assume you have time to stoke up the fire and start heating oil before the assault begins. So in this special case I'm 99% certain the oil is "overpowered." It simply would not be ready in time for a surprise gate opening.

I have to agree the pour frequencty is high as well. It is nearly a continuous flow.

[Razor1952]

IMO the oil is perfect, but the initial point about the ai is valid. Attacking stone walls the ai should forget about entering by the gate (like human players with any sense), capture the gate by entering some other way(the ai should use sapping as well), then the assault will succeed.

[Sin Qua Non]

That was the first and last time I will every use spies to open doors.

Don't take it out on the poor spy! ~:) They are still great for the wooden fortifications, when you want to attack and sack on the same turn. Even one spy gives a pretty good chance of popping the gates. Maybe two rolls for the spies: one to open the gates, one to disable the oil.

Of course, the oil is such a fine deterrent, I'd hate to screw that up!

[Khorak]

The oil is perfect as it is. The problem is that there is an infinite amount of it. Oil would be even more effective against large crowds than what is currently portrayed in RTW, you'd just run out of it real damn quick chucking so much of it down.

As it is, because oil is infinite it makes assaulting via the gates a pointless and dumb strategy. Even if a spy opens the door for you, you'll take insulting casualties running through the gate because of the non-stop torrent of boiling doom. Having the gates already open is meant to be an advantage, not a deathtrap!

[Red Harvest]

Khorak,

Just wondering...don't you think that if a spy unlocked the gates that the fires for heating the oil would not be burning...the oil would not be ready to go for some time? Seems unlikely to me that a city under a long siege would waste a lot of resources keeping the fire hot 24/7 for every gate.

To me that is the aspect missing from having the front gate unlocked by a spy. It would allow for the oil to be used, but after some sort of delay. That would give the attacker a "window" in which to exploit his advantage. As it is, it is hardly an advantage unless it is wooden wall (but then who needs a spy for those?)

[Khorak]

Khorak,

Just wondering...don't you think that if a spy unlocked the gates that the fires for heating the oil would not be burning...the oil would not be ready to go for some time? Seems unlikely to me that a city under a long siege would waste a lot of resources keeping the fire hot 24/7 for every gate.

To me that is the aspect missing from having the front gate unlocked by a spy. It would allow for the oil to be used, but after some sort of delay. That would give the attacker a "window" in which to exploit his advantage. As it is, it is hardly an advantage unless it is wooden wall (but then who needs a spy for those?)

Not only would the fires not be burning, half their units would be getting some sack time in the barracks. It's not like an attempt to assault massive stone walls with siege equipment is a sudden occurance. Archers and artillerists have plenty of time to simply run to the walls and start shooting, and other troops also have more than enough time to put on their armour and get to their assigned areas.

When a bunch of black cloaked bastards throw open the gates, trash the mechanism for closing it, run off into the dark alleys and a couple thousand fully armed, armoured and psyched up warriors come screaming into the city, there's more than a little pandemonium at least!

As it is in RTW, it's as if your army has nonchalantly stood around for half an hour so the enemy have time to set up a wall of angry men just inside the gate.

[Sin Qua Non]

I like this idea of warm up time for oil if the gates are opened by a spy. That way you get a window of opportunity to get what you can in, and then the nail biting that follows when you can't get them in fast enough! It makes for more opportunities to used a kind of combined ops on wall assaults. Through, under and over. Maybe I'm just looking for a way to spice things up.

I also like what I will dub Khorak's "sack time scenario", maybe placing units out of position, or shrinking the deployment zone away from the walls. The only problem is that the AI doesn't really need anything else to cope with.

[hoof]

I want a new option when defending: Open gates. That way a foolish AI can be "convinced" to kill itself KFC style. With that "feature" I will only need one unit to defend every single town (ignoring squalor unrest effects of course). I just "open the gates", position the one unit at the door, and voila, thousand man armies barbequeued in front of me. Much simpler than trying to repel ladder teams or sap points.

[Mr Frost]

Remember also , just as a 20 unit stack represents an army many times its' size {that full stack of Romans is meant to stand in for a fully supported Legion of over 10,000 men} , so too does one spy stand in for what would today be often refered to as a spy master and the various underlings , dupes , associates etc that he would use to do his "dirty work" for him .

One man alone cannot open four heavily defended gates in an alerted castle {the presence of an entire enemy army outside the city walls typically alerts the guards in most population centres to the likely hood someone has it in for them ~D } . However , every city has its' malcontents , criminals , easily corrupted and plain loonatic inhabitants and the spy should be assumed to have entered with a small team of underlings , thus it is a number of men doing the sabotage which , combined with the obvious factor that the oil needs time to heat up {keeping it boiling 24/7 would simply evaporate the oil suppily in a few days or weeks at best and then there would be none left} but given the gates are thrown open without warning and the attackers can rush in without preamble nor prelude {Khorak is quite correct : a normal assault give plenty of warning , whereas infiltrators opening the gates does not} then not only should the oil be cold and useless {how about it just drops and makes everyone slip over :oops: } but the defenders should have little choice in their deployment {they are scattered at Random throughout the town/city or suchlike} . This would require a tweak to A.I. behaviour vis-a-vis training and deploying spys in a counter insurgency role {though it isn't too bad at that considering} perhaps , but it would be more realistic .

A spy team {what is actually represented , that's why the blurb says "Your spys have infiltrated the enemy city ..." not " your spy ..."} opening the gates should be a potential disaster for the defenders {which it was in real life typically} , not a virtual non-event for a player attacking , or sure fire way to see an A.I. army fry and lose if the walls are stone !

[Komutan]

I like the current effectiveness of the oil.They should fix the AI.