The Greatest Film in the History of the World [Archive]

Vicmas

06-15-2001, 01:27

Great, I can post now!(He says as he mounts his SOAP BOX) >>> The Japanese film, Heaven and Earth (1990), NOT THE AMERICAN FILM OF THE SAME NAME, depicts the battles for Shinano and Echigo between Kagetora and Takeda in such breathtaking fashion and in such grand style that it leaves one speechless! (Braveheart looks like an episode of Hogans Hereos in comparison) The cinematography is absolutely gorgeous and the music is haunting and gives me chills >>> the film also makes me bawl http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/redface.gif as it is not only massive battles scenes that make this a must for any lover of the period but it explores the emotional side of Bushido as well, which is widely misunderstood in the West. The subtitles are well done so that even a mediocre reader can keep up and enjoy the film. Most of you have probably seen it but for those who haven't >>> do yourself a favor and track this samarai masterpiece down >>> I taped it off of TNT years ago so it is in their collection but better yet, try to order it online, you wont be sorry.

Koga No Goshi

06-15-2001, 03:52

Absolutely that is a terrific film. And for those of you who go to rent it, be VERY careful. One time I had the correct box for the Japanese Heaven and Earth and when I got home it was still the stupid American movie about the Vietnam War in the box. Be sure it's the subtitled Japanese samurai version. The battle scenes are incredible. I particularly liked the yari cavalry doing the encircling movements (wish we could do that in Shogun!) and the lancer skirmishes. That movie more than any other really gave you the feel of what feudal battle was like.

Oh, and just to avoid confusion, Kagetora is the same person as Uesugi Kenshin. Japanese names are so confusing in the samurai period because of tons of intermarriage, adoption, renaming, etc. He was born Nagao Kagetora, was adopted by a guy named Uesugi from Kamakura, and while a monk in Buddhist studies he took the name Kenshin.

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Goshi of Koga

FwSeal

06-15-2001, 11:11

I first saw Heaven and Earth back in 1993, and only last year finally grabbed a copy for myself, online through a Canadian outlet (as far as I know, H&E was only released in the US on the rental market through Vidmark - and usually runs about 80 bucks. The copy I found was released through Malofilm and was about $20).

The funny thing about the name business is that, if followed by the numbers, Kenshin's name would changed nearly every twenty minutes: Nagao Kagetora, Nagao Masatora, Uesugi Masatora, Uesugi Terutora, and, finally, Uesugi Kenshin.

TosaInu

06-15-2001, 14:11

Konnichiwa FWSeal sama,

I'm happy to see you again.
Gokigen ikaga desu ka?

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Ja mata
Toda MizuTosaInu
Daimyo Takiyama Shi

http://www.takiyama.cjb.com

FwSeal

06-16-2001, 00:06

Yoroshuu Gozarimasuru... Saredo, kerai ga abareteiru no de, seppuku shite morawanakereba narimasenu. De wa, mata.

Takeda Shingen

06-16-2001, 02:41

Yes Heaven and Earth is a very good film one thing i liked was the female mounted warrior women,although i don't know if there was such units in the armies.

Michael

candidgamera

06-16-2001, 10:47

Another source: EBAY

Have now seen this up twice within a couple months: basically everytime I did a search.

War Writer

06-18-2001, 03:17

How weired that a Japanesse film; is the GREATEST FILM IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD!!! Especially on a Japanese debating chamber!

Weired. http://www.plauder-smilies.de/smoke.gif

candidgamera

06-21-2001, 10:28

Hooray for Ebay, just got my copy today, after winning a bid on it Friday.

paid around $60 all told - a little more dearly than Seal San.

Just finished watching it:
-that's a bunch of horses used for a film.
-Armies seemed just about STW size.

Most poignant moments - death of Lady Yae, and later the death ride of her troop - enough to moisten the eyes some.

Originally taped this off cable and seem to remember richer color - the tape version seems a little washed out in places - anybody else have a similar experience.

War Writer

06-23-2001, 23:33

Check this out people:
www.geocities.com/man_bites_doguk/Index.html (http://www.geocities.com/man_bites_doguk/Index.html)

It's my own personal website; which get's updated every week.

jskirwin@yahoo.com

06-25-2001, 21:07

Based solely on this thread I went out and rented this movie - and was not disappointed. Visually striking without being garish, each scene is shot as if it was a painting. It does seem to capture the essence of Bushido Code.

It's also made me realize that I need a refresher course on Sengoku Jidai. I was startled to see Takeda go into battle with his wife. I had thought this was impossible but Wife, who is reading the book "Bundori" by Laura Joh Rowland, confirms that this was common until the Tokugawa Jidai.

As for the circular cavalry charges - I hope these are historically accurate because they are indeed as beautiful as they are deadly.

A comment on the tape itself. The thing needs to be remastered. First off, the video is too dark. Next it looks like a lens has been used to compress the film dimension to fit the screen. This might be fine for "chop-sockey", but not for something where the setting itself is a character in the story. It should be letterboxed.

Anyway, thanks for the thread.
JSK

candidgamera

06-25-2001, 23:17

js@y:

Sounds like you have a different edition than mine - it is letter-boxed. Also, was just reading over at a thread on the Samurai Archives that the Japanese released version was 15 minutes longer also - 119 minutes instead of 104.

The horse choreography work in this, even if its ahistorical (don't know) is quite impressive, and the numbers.

Would be nice if a DVD version, re-mastered were made.

Koga No Goshi

06-26-2001, 08:32

First off, remember that this movie was filmed in Canada. 'Nuff said. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

I really liked the yari cavalry doing the encircling thing. I doubt it was as much of a practical strategic thing to do as much as like "counting coup"... like an "oh we got you now, sucka!" type of thing. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif It reminded me of sharks encircling wounded prey. Really neat.

From what I've read, even the Japanese themselves are often shocked at the facts about Sengoku Jidai. When Tokugawa united the country in 1600, he made his new government pervasive in every aspect of life.. education, family life, marriage, everything was engineered by the Tokugawa Bakufu or done with their express permission only. Tokugawa was meticulous about everything from money to troops to facts, so it's not very surprising that the government legacy he created was extremely conservative/repressive in the sense that it maintained strict rules for behavior, what you could spend your money on,etc. This was entirely opposite to the way of life in the time of men like Oda Nobunaga, Takeda Shingen, and even Hideyoshi, who loved flaunting their wealth and power in huge extravagant parades and ceremonial marches. Tokugawa even set laws limiting the number of retainers you could bring with you while travelling according to your rank, and if I recall correctly it was no large number for even daimyos, something like 100 tops. (Whereas 40 years earlier it wasn't uncommon for daimyos to go about with no less than 5,000 or more people, from soldiers and bodyguards to cooks, maids, servants, etc.)
Remember that a lot of preconceptions about how people thought and behaved in Sengoku Jidai is (intentionally) inaccurate because of the influence of the Tokugawa regime.

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Koga no Goshi

Why did you bring 16 Female Ashigaru? Keep clicking weather, they're only strong one week a month.

Toranaga sama

06-26-2001, 14:25

I agree, the movie was fantastic...

it does need a little color adjustment though, in the snow I had trouble reading the subtitles. hehe

The battle scenes were fantastic.

I kind of got a chuckle out of the big ass boulders of fire though.... poor guys. But I'm surprised at the accuracy of Kagetoras rifle, sniping Shingens woman from the cliff like that...

Oh well. Freakin a, nice movie.

Peace

candidgamera

06-26-2001, 18:29

Toranaga:

The rifle shot: my sentiments also.

That was about a 300 yd. shot - pretty exceptional considering it was a smooth bore musket, and at that range would think the ball would be having a tough time with the armor.

Toranaga sama

06-26-2001, 20:54

seriously... but the all time greatest response to a woman challenging you to a duel:

"How about I challenge you in bed?"

I watched tha movie 3 times during the 3 day rental period.

FwSeal

06-27-2001, 03:18

I will always love Heaven and Earth, but Kadokawa was quite liberal in his presentation of the events surrounding Shingen and Kenshin between 1548-1561...
It might thus be pointed out that Lady Yae was an invention for the movie. Shingen, aside from his second wife lady Sanjo (his first wife, Lady Uesugi, died before Shingen turned 15), had two principle concubines - the ladies Nezu and Yugawa. He had many consorts besides, but none of the women in his life are recorded as having gone on campaign with him, at least not in armor. As to whether or not Kadokawa derived Yae from some legend (apart from the story of Kiso Yoshinaka and Tomoe Gozen), I couldn't say, as I have never seen a book on Shingen that records anything on the matter one way or the other.
The same goes for Yae's corps of women warriors. Shingen is known to have taken nurses and entertainers on campaign with him, but no troop of naginata women. Certainly, they are not mentioned in the Koyo Gunkan as having been at any of the battles of Kawanakajima. Again, though - movies are meant to be enjoyed as movies, and for that reason, Heaven and Earth shall ever be one of my favorites...

Maltz

07-02-2001, 04:14

I've got a DVD of this film "heavn & earth" as well. Indeed there were a lot of beautiful-as-picture scenes.

However, there are some things confuse me a bit:

1) Kenshin's mentor - the father of the main actress (that 5 character name, I don't know how to pronouce it http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif) - did he really got killed as a rebel? In my memory he died with Kenshin's cousin (or something else) on a boat cruise. Kenshin doubted his cousin was going to rebel, and asked his old mentor to kill him. Reluctant to do so, the 7x years old man arranged an accident and died with Kenshin's cousin.

2) When Kenshin and his men ran into Takeda Shingen's command center, a row of gunners ran out - and actually "shot" Kenshin, who fell down the horse. Yet 5 seconds later he was definitely ok and kept fighting - is this just purely Kenshin's imagination or...?

3) The ending was quite odd as the Uesugi army had already fled across the river, but again they return to the field and "penetrates" the vast number of Takeda army. Is this another imagination of Kenshin?

Maybe just I am picky but these scenes appear strange to me.

Koga No Goshi

07-02-2001, 04:46

Maltz,

If I recall correctly, the row of gunners who run out do not shoot Kenshin. They aim to, but like four of Kenshin's men manage to get in between him and the gunners really fast and get shot down. But, I have only seen the VHS version, is the DVD version a director's cut or something?

I think the movie was not supposed to be literally direct to history as much as almost a mythical portrayal of the "two tigers." You notice that end narration almost made them out to be forces of nature or magic or something. I think the part where Kenshin's army gallops through the retreating Takeda army is just for show. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif Remember, in the end the narrator says they fought, but it was never their destiny to destroy each other.

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Koga no Goshi

Why did you bring 16 Female Ashigaru? Keep clicking weather, they're only strong one week a month.

Maltz

07-02-2001, 05:04

Thanks Koga.

I think the film favors Kenshin quite a bit, as Shingen got hit into the water heh heh http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif (I am more of a Uesugi fan than Takeda).

There was a rumor about the duel of Uesugi Kenshin and Takeda Shingen. Kenshin himself rushed into the Takeda army to challenge Shingen. Shingen was not really prepared (he likes to command behind the army, but Kenshin usually stands at front), so he used his iron commanding "fan" to parry. Soon Shingen was rescued by his men, but Kenshin left some cuts on Shingen's fan. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

FwSeal

07-02-2001, 08:06

Maltz, you are correct about Usami. Far from being killed by Kenshin himself, he died drowning Nagao Masakage in Nojiri Lake in 1564. The upshot of this was that Uesugi Kagekatsu, Masakage's son and Kenshin's successor, bore a grudge against the Usami house and Sadayuki's son Katsuyuki is supposed to have felt compelled to flee Echigo as a result.
Sadayuki (aka Sadamitsu) was a son of Usami Takatada and was 75 at the time of his death.
Nagao Masakage had been a supporter of Nagao Harukage but had surrendered to Kenshin in 1549. Just why he was disposed of is not clear, but another theory is that he was not murdered at all - that the two men had simply become intoxicated and fell overboard http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Noone can really be sure if the duel between Shingen and Kenshin actually occured. On one hand, a tradition has it that Kenshin himself did not do the attacking, that the honor belonged to a member of the Arakawa (Arakawa Nagazane, I think). On the Takeda side, one theory holds that Shingen wasn't the man who fended off the attack anyway - that his brother Nobukado was the one who displayed his skills with the war fan... Either way, and if the story is at all true, the honor of saving Shingen/Nobukado is usually given to Hara Osumi no Kami Torayoshi (aka Hara Han'emon), who rushed forward and forced Kenshin/Arakawa's horse off with a spear. What became of Torayoshi later is unclear, but his son Toranaga (at least ONE sengoku guy had to have that name http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif died fighting the Oda invaders in 1582.

Koga No Goshi

07-02-2001, 09:10

Did you also notice they kinda picked a guy with a whiny voice to be Takeda? In all the other movies Takeda has a low baritone rumbling roar type voice. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

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Koga no Goshi

Why did you bring 16 Female Ashigaru? Keep clicking weather, they're only strong one week a month.

FwSeal

07-02-2001, 10:22

I know what you mean about the voice http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif I did love how he looked - although, alas, the vision of Shingen as a big, burly 'mountain' has been challanged in recent years. The 'Kagemusha' Shingen may be closer to the mark...
Speaking of Kagemusha, Murata Hideo ('Obu Toramasa') is one of two 'Kagemusha' allumni who have a part in Heaven and Earth (he played Baba in Kagemusha). The other is Otaki Hideji (he is sometimes listed as Otaki Shuji), 'Yamagata' in Kagemusha, who plays the gun merchant (his voice is quite distinctive, to say the least).
In the other camp, Kenshin was played by something of a soap opera star (at least, that actor had a soap that lasted for about a season or so http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif More recently, he had a small part in the Taiga drama 'Mori Motonari', among other things.) Enoki Takaaki wasn't quite how I imagined Kenshin for some reason...

Koga No Goshi

07-02-2001, 11:57

Also, yes, I think the movie was very much in Kenshin's favor. Kenshin is described as having been a man of true honor, a rare thing during the times. I think the adage is "a man and leader too good for the times." I'm not sure if that's true or not but I know he took his Buddhist vows (like being merciful, not taking wives, etc.) much much more seriously than Shingen did. Shingen was the opposite: greedy, ambitious, plotting, devious, opportunistic, etc. I think this is why the battles between Kenshin and Shingen capture the imagination so well. Almost like a battle between good and evil.

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Koga no Goshi

Why did you bring 16 Female Ashigaru? Keep clicking weather, they're only strong one week a month.

FwSeal

07-03-2001, 04:41

Interestingly enough, Luis Frois, while he never met Shingen, knew of him and recorded that Shingen was a man who took his religious convictions seriously and was a pious monk. Of course, this seems far from the truth, as you say.
Kenshin is usually said to have lacked the ambition that drove his rivals Nobunaga, Shingen, and Ujiyasu. Yet he seemed to enjoy war well enough, as he was on campaign at least once if not as many as three times a year from about 1551 until his death. His fighting with Shingen was almost a sideshow, one might say, to his goal of restoring Uesugi influence in the Kanto. Although he has a reputation as a great warrior (and one that seems deserved) most of his campaigns into Musashi (and as far as Sagami and Shimosa) don't seem to have achieved very much beyond taking a few forts that usually fell back into Hojo hands when Kenshin retired to Echigo. On the other hand, his defeat of a powerful Oda army at the Tedorigawa was a great feat. One has to wonder if he planned to march against Nobunaga in 1578 (the year he died), as some have suggested. According to one theory, he was alarmed by the building of Azuchi Castle, which he took (the story goes) as a device to hold him in check. Nagashino had all but removed the Takeda threat from Kenshin's borders, and would allow him to extend his campaigns. Yet others say that he was simply planning yet another march against the Hojo in the spring of 1578.

Maltz

07-03-2001, 12:58

Thanks FW Seal for so many useful information. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

Personally I like Kenshin more also because he appeared to be a respectful "failure" in the Sengoku Jidai. Compared to Shingen and other realistic daimyo, he was naive enough to follow his religious vow. But that's probably why he could become so courageous in battle.

But I don't think he is any good actual leader outside the battle. He got betrayed by generals all the time! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif

Shuko

07-03-2001, 18:21

Have not seen Heaven and Earth but will make the effort to get a copy, sounds interesting.

My favourite film is actually Kurosawa's "Rashamon". It not an action film and is in black & white. However the retelling of the same event by five different people (including the deceased) made this a masterpeice. A very thought provoking film.

lunchbox147

07-18-2001, 09:17

Hi Film lovers
You have all given this film a high rating and i want to watch this film badly.
But please do me a favour and post your comments on the movie here http://uk.imdb.com/Title?0099753
thanks
DarkComet

Warmaker

07-29-2001, 15:58

Is there anyplace to get this film? It's got my interest now.

I've been trying to search the net but can't find any places that have it on DVD, if at all on any format.

Ever since i watched this season long show about Oda Nobunaga, I've been hooked on samurai flicks...

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There's no such thing as overkill, just ensured victory!

candidgamera

07-30-2001, 23:59

Quote Originally posted by candidgamera:
Hooray for Ebay, just got my copy today, after winning a bid on it Friday.

paid around $60 all told - a little more dearly than Seal San.

Just finished watching it:
-that's a bunch of horses used for a film.
-Armies seemed just about STW size.

Most poignant moments - death of Lady Yae, and later the death ride of her troop - enough to moisten the eyes some.

Originally taped this off cable and seem to remember richer color - the tape version seems a little washed out in places - anybody else have a similar experience.[/QUOTE]

Warmaker, this was my route - very slick.

FwSeal

07-31-2001, 02:59

I grabbed a copy from Videoflicks.com earlier this year but they don't seem to have it at the moment. I understand that the movie was more widely distributed in Canada (perhaps due to the fact that the film was shot there) by Malofilm.

vangersonm

07-31-2001, 03:10

I relly love the music from the movie

ishikawa2

07-31-2001, 05:02

Oops... Warmaker: I found myself bidding against you on EBay for Heaven and Earth!!!
But I quit... we need to find some way to make a deal! [Later edit: never mind about the deal... I found it for $6.95 + 1.75 shipping. I'll let you know if my order is successful. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif ]

For those who may be interested: see the movie trailer at http://www.videopipeline.net/player/VpNetPlayer.asp?Cmd=3&Published Id=3451&CustomerId=49639&videokbrate=100 (http://www.videopipeline.net/player/VpNetPlayer.asp?Cmd=3&PublishedId=3451&CustomerId=49639&videokbrate=100) (or change the "rate" to "28" or "56" in the link) For some reason I couldn't quite figure out, I couldn't just put the link in the browser's "Address" line, but it worked if I actually created a dummy HTML document and clicked the link there. Wierd. (The server may be checking the HTTP "Referrer" variable.) It may or may not work as a link from here.

[This message has been edited by ishikawa2 (edited 07-30-2001).]

[This message has been edited by ishikawa2 (edited 07-30-2001).]