What's with the archers?

[TerranAce007]

Okay, need some advice here...

Archers are lightly armed and lightly armored missile troop, but I have the hardest time killing them with anything. I charged a group of 80 thracian archers with a group of roman cavalry. They didn't lose much in the charge from the arrow fire, but they ended up routing and the archers still had at least 50 men! How do 80 archers withstand and defeat a cavalry charge of almost the same number of armored cavalry?

I have experienced the same thing with infantry. An early legionary cohort has much heavier weapons and armor than archers, but in the same battle, while the archers were shooting up my main line, I managed to flank them with a spare cohort and charge them. The cohort that charged did not take much arrow fire, but when they got to hand to hand combat, the archers beat & routed them!!!

Also, what is the best way to defeat thracian flaxmen? I had my cohorts on fire at will, as well as having archers behind them. 2 groups of 80 flaxmen charged my line from a distance, and each was down to 50 before they even hit my lines, but they still managed to rout the cohort that they charged, which by the way was only twice their size, 80 men. It seemed like the 50 yard sprint under arrow fire, then the barrage of pila (+2 btw) didnt phase them.

I wanted to play a "very hard" campaign to get better, but this is almost rediculuous.

I saved my progress luckily the turn before I the thracians attacked me, and I fought the battle over five times using different strategies and they repeatedly decimated my army, which outnumbered them by about 400 men.

I am not the best at this ga,e, but I have beaten the imperial campaign twice already, but this is really frustrating me. I can't win any battles because my men run away from the enemy.

I had a group of 47 archers that I rallied from routing, and they were shooting at a unit of flaxmen charging them. By the time the flaxmen got close, there was only 1 left, AND MY F***ING ARCHERS, ALL 47 OF THEM, ROUTED AND RAN AWAY FROM ONE FLAXMAN! This happened far back from the main battle where my army was being slaughtered, there was no enemy archer fire on this group, and no other friendly units routing near them either. I couldn't get them to rally again even after I ran down the one flaxmen with my captains cavalry!

[desdichado]

on very hard ai troops get plenty of combat bonuses (attack/defence & morale probably)- not sure how much but have a look through the forums and you should find exact figures.

this turns crap troops into good ones and elite troops into supermen.

very hard is just that, very hard!

I don't like it personally because of results like archers beating cavalry but on normal diff the ai is crap tactically and it makes the battles too easy. possibly vh has been overdone but still on my 1st campaign (vh/med) so not sure.

[Jeanne d'arc]

Thracian archers are plain useless in melee even with the bonuses they get on very hard.Unless you are using mods to reduce killrate u should have no problems in such battles.However when the initial charge didend kill enough men causing your cavalry to be outnumbered then u should not be surprised in taking losses.Try multiple charges to completely brake the unit and only engage into prolonged melee combat when u outnumber them 2 to 1.Also try a wedge formation charge for maximum effect in the beginning, then switch to normal formation and continue charging.

Falxmen have a good charge and with the bonuses on very hard that charge is devastating, the shock from that charge probably routed your cohorts.Perhaps u could charge in some cavalry from behind once they hit your main line of cohorts.Hope this helps.

[Red Harvest]

Single light cav units vs. archers and skirmishers often run into trouble (esp. on VH where the AI gets +7 attack.) Speed and small unit size play a factor. The missile units are very fast and this seems to sap the charge because you have to chase them so long (tiring and disordering your men.) They seem to take losses a bit more slowly because they are dispersed, sapping the charge bonus as well. Hit them with two units of cav and they usually rout rapidly with few losses to your side.

The answer with cav is usually to double up! Head-to-head much of the heavy infantry is decently matched vs. cav. However, if you hit the units with two units (and preferrably one of these in flank or rear) the infantry usually succumbs rapidly before they can gain support. I often end up with a mob of four light cav units working down a line starting at the end and working toward the center. As soon as a unit routs I hit the next one. It is a "disassembly" line process. Momentum is the key.

[HopAlongBunny]

You might find that re-charging helps a bit. I really noticed this with the light lancers: charge_make contact and dbl click away from the unit quickly; reform and re-charge; works much better with pairs to keep unit under continuous cav charge.

[Doug-Thompson]

Single light cav units vs. archers and skirmishers often run into trouble (esp. on VH where the AI gets +7 attack.) Speed and small unit size play a factor.emphasis added

Small unit size in particular is important. On large, an archer unit has 80 men. A typical light cav -- say, Greek Cavlary -- has 54. So, when the archers lose 27 men they've lost about a third of their men. When the Greek Cav lose 27, however, they're down to half strength and are about to rout.

Put another way, you only have to kill five or six cavalrymen and you've given the unit 10 percent casualties. You have to kill eight archers to get the same effect.

This is one reason Egyptian Desert Cav are so effective -- they are a bigger unit that can take more losses. Head-to-head, Desert Cav and Arabic cavalry are about equal in the stats -- until you look at unit size.

[Spuddicus]

You might find that re-charging helps a bit. I really noticed this with the light lancers: charge_make contact and dbl click away from the unit quickly; reform and re-charge; works much better with pairs to keep unit under continuous cav charge.

Yup ... charge and re-charge.
I usually keep my cav in wedge formation; helps break apart enemy lines and it appears to help in breaking off the attack so I can pull back a little and then charge again.

[Red Harvest]

Light lancers have insane charge bonuses (+15!!!) so they would benefit. Roundshields get something like +2 so it has only a small impact for them, and you might lose more men trying to disengage. You really need to be aware of the charge bonus before deciding whether to pull back and charge again.

The desert light cav are really odd. They are the only cav unit that size, and they get a +4 for that dinky shield...should be +2. The Egyptian unit stats are not in sync with their 3d models.

Unit size is an issue with some phalanx units as well. In MTW spear units were large relative to sword units. This allowed the spears to hold their ground for awhile even while being killed off. In RTW some phalanx units are the same size as the sword infantry they face. The swords wrap around with their wider frontage. I've modded to increase good smaller phalanx units all to the full size phalanx size (a 50% increase.) The base level trash phalanx units have been left at the default size or only slightly greater (+25%). Several became too powerful at full size.

[Doug-Thompson]

Unit size is an issue with some phalanx units as well. In MTW spear units were large relative to sword units. This allowed the spears to hold their ground for awhile even while being killed off. In RTW some phalanx units are the same size as the sword infantry they face. The swords wrap around with their wider frontage.

Is it possible that R: TW has re-written the ground rules on spear units so completely, that the greater depth and narrower frontage of spear units should be abandoned?

This flies in the face of both history and Total War past practice, but I'm not just trying to be provocative here.

Compare the typical M:TW sword with the equally typical M:TW spear.

The Feudal M@A had an attack of 3, a charge of 3 and a defense of 7: 3/3/7.
The Feudal Sergeant had an attack of 0, a charge of 5 and a defense of 2: 0/5/2

Obviously, the Feudal Sergeants had no business going head-to-head with the M@A. Only the rank bonus of M:TW and the greater number of ranks to "chew through" allowed the FS to stand ground long enough for archers, cavalry and other units to do the real killing. Also, the M@A ranks would be depleted and disorganized by a long rain of missile fire as they approached.

Now look at R:TW. Hastati have an attack of 7, a charge of 2 and a defense of 15: 7/2/15.

The figures for the Greek Hoplite are: 7/6/16.

Is there a rank bonus in R:TW?

If not, then it would appear that there's no advantage to a deep formation and more of an advantage to a long, thin one that had a long frontage and would put as many spear tips as possible into the initial, very strong charge.

Now, this may be a horrible, ahistorical design error etc. etc., and a gamey exploitation, etc. etc., but those are separate questions. My question now is, what's wrong with this proposition from a strict results-oriented gameplay standpoint?

[GodsPetMonkey]

There is a 'rank' bonus, but its handled differently to in MTW.

The new engine has brought many new things, and obviously they decided to get rid of a few of the artificial bonuses (not difficulty orientated!) for certian things, like spear rank bonuses, and replace them with a more 'realistic' and graphically pleasing alternative. Rank bonuses simulated the fact that more then one rank can fight at a time, well now, more then one rank CAN fight at a time (eg. 3 ranks for standard hoplites) when in the correct formation. So whilst, for normal spears, no benefit was to be had over the max number of ranks for the bonus (IIRC 3 ranks) in RTW its the same, deploy your hoplites 2 rows thick, and 2 can fight at a time (at one point), deploy it 3 thick, and 3 can fight, deploy it 4 thick, and still only 3.

So the new bonus is more then one fighting at a time whilst maintaining a tight formation (something heavy infantry cant do). True you can make a long thin formation, and have it be effective, but you could do that in MTW too. The problem is, as soon as you puncture the row of spears, theres nothing else to keep them from attacking the spearmen, half the point of the additional ranks is it means 3 rows of sharp pointy sticks to wade through before getting to the spearman, who often has a sword as well (nasty shock, esp. to a MTW unit ~;) )

[Mr Frost]

Just incase the origonal poster is still checking on this thread .

*Cavalry advice that you should remember : mass your melee cavalry into one big sledgehammer block and use them as one unit .
If you have a lot of melee cavalry {say 10 full units}, then you can get away with two such blocks , but each will be less powerful than one big one .
As that loonie on Decisive Battles {Nutbreaker or whatever his name was :p } pointed out , Guderan was right when he advocated armoured units {the modern version of cavalry} in concentrated masses directed at choice portions of the enemies' line ... "not with a drizzle , but with a downpour !"

Using your melee cavalry in one big concentrated mass gives you a sledgehammer of fast moving combat power that can smash {near instant routs if you charge , then double cilck on the ground some distance on the opposite side of the enemy unit from where you hit to drag the cavalry right through them . You will end up both breaking their unit into little peices and completely eveloping them both ; only Beserkers in a beserk state and very experienced Spartans can resist routing the instant that state is reached - note , when they are thus enveloped click on them to reissue the attack , unless you need to keep moving} most flank protecting units and thus clear its' own path to hit an enemies' line in flank or rear {where it can destroy that section of the enemy line far more surely !} .

Mass that cavalry !

Not with a drizzle , but with a downpour !


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Edit : I had to put in the horsies , it wouldn't be complete without the horsies ~D

[Colovion]

Take one unit of Sarmatian Cav (amazing charge)

One unit of Archer Warband

Charge the first at the latter and BAM! you're left with (if you're lucky) 5 Sarmatians running for mommy. and yes, I charged and recharged. had I not I wouldn't have killed 10 of their unit, but more like 2.

Let's take the same thing but have the recieving end be a normal Spear Warband, Gaulish rendition.

yay! all the Gauls are dead and my Sarmatians have only lost one of their number.

I love how the counter system works....

[Red Harvest]

Take one unit of Sarmatian Cav (amazing charge)

One unit of Archer Warband

Charge the first at the latter and BAM! you're left with (if you're lucky) 5 Sarmatians running for mommy. and yes, I charged and recharged. had I not I wouldn't have killed 10 of their unit, but more like 2.

Let's take the same thing but have the recieving end be a normal Spear Warband, Gaulish rendition.

yay! all the Gauls are dead and my Sarmatians have only lost one of their number.

I love how the counter system works....

Yeah, the matchups are FUBAR. Non-spear units should not get a charge bonus vs. cav (OK, perhaps 1/2 normal if the cav is stationary, but zero if the cav are attacking or charging where momentum should be entirely in the cavs favor.) You gave me an idea though...I could mod all the foot skirmishers to have -4 or -8 mount effects vs. cavalry. It might not be necessary for the base level missile units, but the elites need some toning down for sure. I had to up mount effects for non-phalanx spears to +8. Now they actually work like anti-cav units.

I had to do a similar thing with cav vs. elephants. As I dialed down elephant hit points the most effective counter I found to elephants (ignoring pigs) was charging cav at them. Total nonsense that was. So I really stuck it to the cav on elephant mount effects (their stat, and the elephants too.)

[sapi]

this turns crap troops into good ones and elite troops into supermen.

the bonuses are +7 attack and defense, but i don't know morale (a lot though).

This has made me just play in the middle - vh/normal

[Red Harvest]

the bonuses are +7 attack and defense, but i don't know morale (a lot though).

This has made me just play in the middle - vh/normal

Can you point to a link for that? Someone quoted +7 attack to me sometime back, but did not mention defense so I assumed it was not altered. The combination of =+7 attack and +7 defense is just mind boggling. What is even more bewildering is that simple round shield cav can overcome such a deficit to eliminate large infantry armies. If you are correct then the AI is much weaker than I thought and the cav even more unbalanced.

[Slon]

I played on med/med and experienced a similar thing. I charged an almost unscathed unit of Hastati into a group of Cretan Archers and they routed my Hastati in hand-to-hand combat.

[lancer63]

Being so used to old, reliable MTW tactics I've found that charging archers with cav. head on is like swating at a swarm of bees with a sledgehammer. Too much effort for too little results and the horsies suffer dearly. but if I can manage to get a flank charge to an already busy unit the results change dramaticaly. You can almost hear men droping like bowling pins. :charge:
But the most efective counter archer unit in melee is another archer/javelin unit. :duel:

[Red Harvest]

Can you point to a link for that? Someone quoted +7 attack to me sometime back, but did not mention defense so I assumed it was not altered. The combination of =+7 attack and +7 defense is just mind boggling. What is even more bewildering is that simple round shield cav can overcome such a deficit to eliminate large infantry armies. If you are correct then the AI is much weaker than I thought and the cav even more unbalanced.

I found Jerome's post on this. He says that defense is not changed by hard/very hard, only attack and some morale factors (and morale is on a sliding scale.) Whew, that makes me feel a little better.