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Irving
04-08-2001, 09:19
Have any of you read this book.. I think it is really great.. and I recommend it highly

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Chaos is born from order.
Cowardice is born from bravery.
Weakness is born from strength.
-Sun Tzu

FwSeal
04-08-2001, 09:33
I read Shogun years ago and loved every page.
(While one could say that the book isn't exactly spot-on in terms of historical accuracy, I didn't mind - I myself read history books for history and read novels for the sheer enjoyment of it.)
I also liked Clavell's 'Taipan'.

Minagawa Daimon
04-08-2001, 15:26
a 10! one of the best books i ever read, i even felt sad when i finished reading the book because i didnt want the adventure to be over, poor mariko, such torment in ones self, a christian and a samurai all in one, also those samurais who died for the protection of toronagas escape, one word, wow!!!

Tone
04-08-2001, 17:49
Yes a good novel. Can anyone tell me who the main Japanese characters in the book were based on? I can work some out, but don't know enough on the history for many.

OBTW Seal-san and others, good job in here, I rarely post here myself cos I don't know much on the history, but I always enjoy reading the info you provide.

Draksen
04-08-2001, 18:55
Good novel !

Good film too (no ?)

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Kazamatsuri clan
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Minagawa Daimon
04-09-2001, 12:27
great novel ,YES!! as for good movie, im not so sure about that, also War Writer, the character lord toronaga was based on no other than Tokugawa ieyasu, also there are historical counterparts of the novls character as Gracia/mariko who is the daughter of akechi mitsuhide in real life, and hosokawa as the husband who was a sharpshooter with the bow and arrow.

CaPeFeAr
04-09-2001, 21:35
2 thumbs up!!! i have read and re-read this book. the only sad part is the lack of discription in the final campain. his other books are worth reading also..i just finished reading gai-jin. and i can also recommend his other books such as king rat, nobel house and the b4 mentioned tai-pan. however i have not read whirlwind....any reviews?

Idaho
04-09-2001, 21:49
I went to the Miura Anjin monument in Ito, Izu, Japan. THere is a sculture of William Adams and one of his ships. I failed to get to his shrine in Yokusuka though http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif

hach
04-10-2001, 01:42
nothing compares.

the best book ever'and much better than the mini series.

hach

Irving
04-10-2001, 04:40
minagawa: the husband was Buntaro..

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Chaos is born from order.
Cowardice is born from bravery.
Weakness is born from strength.
-Sun Tzu

Minagawa Daimon
04-10-2001, 08:19
yep, thats the husbands name, and if any of you play the game Kessen for the PS2 youd notice that the character Hosokawa is Buntaro when there was a short scene showing "Gracia" committing death before capture at Ishido's castle, now i got a question myself, "Shogun" is the only work by James Clavell that i read, though im looking into reading others, is "shogun" the only samurai story that clavell wrote? the other title he wrote sounds oriental, can anyone give me review and a short note concerning the books that he wrote. thanks in advance.

Draksen
04-10-2001, 14:58
James Clavel's "GAIJIN"
is rather good too.

It's the story of the Toranaga's family, later during the 18th and 19th century.

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Kazamatsuri clan
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solypsist
04-10-2001, 15:38
here's a similar thread started on here a few months ago:
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/Forum3/HTML/000090.html

Minagawa Daimon
04-11-2001, 01:01
Draksen-san, pardon my poor memory but i seem to remember hazily that Toronaga is a family name in the book shogun, just cant remember what character it belonged to, care to refresh my memory?

hach
04-11-2001, 01:36
gai-jin is an excellent sequel to shogun'but the ending was dissapointing.

hach

ShaiHulud
04-11-2001, 03:08
Just from memory, Clavell wrote....

King Rat.... about a Japanese POW camp for Brits... excellent read

Taipan... about Brits initial founding of a colony in Hong Kong.. again, excellent read

Shogun... you know about that one

Noble House.. sequel to Taipan... some good parts, not on the level of the previous 3 and the TV series was awful.

Haven't read Gaijin.... don't recall others by Clavell right now...

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Wind fells blossoms, rain
fells steel,yet bamboo bends and drinks

Draksen
04-11-2001, 13:44
Minagawa Daimon-san,

Toranaga is the daimyo who becomes shogun in the novel and in the film.

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Kazamatsuri clan
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Irving
04-13-2001, 09:47
I am reading King Rat now, and I miss Blackthorne and Mariko and such... it just isn't the same... sniff

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Chaos is born from order.
Cowardice is born from bravery.
Weakness is born from strength.
-Sun Tzu

ShaiHulud
04-13-2001, 11:49
Irv.... Yah, but still a great read. There is also a movie, "King Rat", based on the book. It's good.

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Wind fells blossoms, rain
fells steel,yet bamboo bends and drinks

Irving
04-14-2001, 00:28
there is a movie? i didn't know.. I'll see if i can find it somewhere.... i doubt it though

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Chaos is born from order.
Cowardice is born from bravery.
Weakness is born from strength.
-Sun Tzu

Slyspy
04-15-2001, 06:52
I just finished reading Shogun today. An excellent book, one of the sort that leaves you with an empty feeling for a while after finishing it and realising that the story is over.


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"Put 'em in blue coats, put 'em in red coats, the bastards will run all the same!"

ShaiHulud
04-15-2001, 09:04
I first picked 'Shogun' up at a train station in Germany in 1975 when I needed a book (any book) to occupy me while traveling. Needless to say, when I arrived I had to put my sight-seeing on hold while I finished it! lol

I, too, felt let down when it ended cuz I wanted it to go on and on. Great book...

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Wind fells blossoms, rain
fells steel,yet bamboo bends and drinks

Minagawa Daimon
04-17-2001, 12:45
i wished theres a shogun or anything, i still feel empty when i finished reading Shogun, i still think its one of the best books ive read and i wish there was still more, i know i might be odd but i do symphatize with a lot of characters in that story, from marikos suicide to the anonymous samurais who got cut down protectin toronaga and mariko when they proceeded to get away from ishidas castle, truly an epic, and im glad to know that a lot of you liked it, i'll get gaijin but i know its never gonna come up to the levels of shogun,sniff, sniff, and draksen thanks for reminding me,well i better stop since im getting emotional now w nostalgia,just wish i was reading shogun for the first time now...sigh

Takeda Shingen
04-17-2001, 15:49
I have'nt read the book but i do have a copy of it a friend gave it to me awhile ago.The movie/miniseries was very good i really enjoyed it.It's too bad they had to change the names of the historical people like ieyasu but on a whole i had no complaints.What about the scene where the Samurai took a leak on Richard Chamberlin(Pilot)seems in Japan a Samurai could do anything if he desired.But watching Richard's face when it happened i wonder what he was feeling at that moment.

Michael

Anjin-san
05-12-2001, 11:36
I just read it again for the third time. It is, without a doubt, the best book I have ever read. If, the mini-series comes out on DVD, I will buy it. I believe it is a must read for anybody who likes the Total War

And I agree with what some said, if you see it at the video store, it's the 2 hour version, where as the show was, what, 8-10 hours. I haven't seen it in 15 years or so

High Voltage
05-12-2001, 11:54
I bought the book last week at it's the worst book I've ever read! > http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif

Seriously though, it's the best book I've ever read http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif I can't put it down! It's full of great suprises and I am always thinking about the story, almost all day. No book has ever done that to me! I saw the movie at the video store, but am waiting until I'm done with the book. I'm only on page 300, which is good in a week for me considering I'm busy with school and playing STW http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif I'm just glad that I'm only on page 300, cauz when I'm done I will be pissed.

Let's clone James Clavell in the future and tell him to make a sequel!

Anjin-san
05-12-2001, 15:04
Don't forget, the two hour movie version of Shogun isn't that good

Koga No Goshi
06-15-2001, 09:33
I think the most beautiful part of the novel capturing the samurai spirit was the part where Mariko makes the token effort to lead the hostages out of Osaka Castle. Ishido's samurai block the way, Toranaga's browns push forward, they issue challenges, and the samurai line up man to man and fight 1 on 1, always controlled and always a fair fight.

I also found interesting in the novel the way the social superiority of the Japanese to the Europeans of the time was made quite clear. Whereas we've all grown up with a Euro-dominant conditioning, you see lice-ridden men who never bathe for superstitious fears of catching evil spirits from water held up to meticulously clean Japanese. You also see quite how strongly Christianity shaped our cultural superstitions and hangups even to the present day. (To an American, it's shocking and disturbing to think about little kids watching movies or reading books where sex is shown graphically. To the Japanese, it's simply part of nature, not a shameful evil thing.)



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Goshi of Koga

Scipio Valorus
06-15-2001, 10:09
Quote Originally posted by Koga No Goshi:
(To an American, it's shocking and disturbing to think about little kids watching movies or reading books where sex is shown graphically. To the Japanese, it's simply part of nature, not a shameful evil thing.)
[/QUOTE]

Oh, is the Japanese openess towards sex responsible for the FACT that any representation of genetalia, male or female is censored. I think you have it backwards, my friend. It is the Europeans of today that have the most liberal attitude towards sexualtity, followed by North Americans, with Asians being a very conservative people compared to the western nations.

Koga No Goshi
06-15-2001, 11:53
Pick up a Japanese drug store manga comic book and get back to me. 8 year old kids read and see everything from sex to homosexual relationships.



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Goshi of Koga

evilc
06-16-2001, 02:51
in the book i laughed at the 'sex with a duck' bit for a VERY long time

Hawkeye
06-21-2001, 08:39
"Oh, is the Japanese openess towards sex responsible for the FACT that any representation of genetalia, male or female is censored. I think you have it backwards, my friend. It is the Europeans of today that have the most liberal attitude towards sexualtity, followed by North Americans, with Asians being a very conservative people compared to the western nations."

I currently live just outside of Kobe and when I walk into Lawsons convenience store there are easily 30 to 40 magazines with pornographic pictures and they are usually sitting right beside children's books. As far as the covering up of genitalia is concerned I can tell you that it is becoming more and more lax.

[This message has been edited by Hawkeye (edited 06-21-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Hawkeye (edited 06-21-2001).]

Toranaga sama
06-26-2001, 14:01
it is quite easily the best book I've read in my life... Clavell conveys emotion so realistically, I laughed and felt good when things were going good for Blackthorne, and I cried when... *sigh* Mariko san...

Anyway, Toranaga is based on Tokugawa Ieyasu, who defeated Ishida (the villian Ishido) at the battle of Sekigahara. Blackthorne is based on an actual englishman who landed in Japan and became friends with the emporer... I forget his name though.

Ishida was the last retainer of the House of Toyotomi, and Ishido's peasant upbringing is based on Hideyoshi Toyotomi's rise from Peasanthood. There was a man who was named Akechi (Mariko's father, Akechi Jinsai) and it escapes me now, but the Yaemon is based on someone.... :-(

anyway, if anyone else is interested in discussing Japanese history, email me at chaussee1@hotmail.com

Peace

Koga No Goshi
06-27-2001, 06:07
Akechi really did have a Christian daughter fluent in Latin and Portuguese... Lady Gracia Josui.

Yaemon represents Toyotomi Hideyori, the son of Hideyoshi who was too young to rule (which is why Ishida Mitsunari held the power)



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Koga no Goshi

Why did you bring 16 Female Ashigaru? Keep clicking weather, they're only strong one week a month.

radan
07-23-2001, 11:32
Actually, I read the book about 3 years ago and I have forgotten it. After playing STW, i bought a new one (borrowed the previous book from a friend) and started reading again. I think it's a good book..with some happy.,sad..,hilarious scenes and most of all because it's related to STW http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif Hey..onna..onna anyone?

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--RADAN--
(The SAMURAI HERO Ashigaru)
A member of CLAN..what no CLAN??

Muchoman
07-24-2001, 01:31
Haven't read Shogun yet, (but I'm going to after reading this post) but I have read another book I think is really great.
The book is Shike by Robert Shea, its also loosely based on historical characters but has more in common with mongol invasion. (If they ever release it that is)

Tachikaze
07-24-2001, 05:30
I thought the book was good and interesting, but a bit too dramatic. It also sacrificed realism to make a point or demonstrate something distinctive about Japanese culture. One example is the scene in which a worker is beheaded for not showing proper respect. A real worker would automatically respond correctly, and have no impulse to rebel. Japan would soon run out of laborers if nobles went lopping off heads willy-nilly. I also thought saving Toronaga during the earthquake was rather contrived.

But it was a "good read" as some one said above.

Will Adams actually did become a hatamoto, by the way. That surprised me.

In this case, I think the European perpective (making Blackthorne the main character) was the right decision. Usually, I'm against inserting an anglo in a story about an Asian or African country, as if the author had felt we can't identify with a non-white.

But, it would be interesting to read the same story from Omi's, Toronaga's, or even Mariko's perspective ("Suddenly this hairy, smelly, humanlike animal appeared on my shore, speaking some odd gibberish with unpronouncible sounds").

radan
07-31-2001, 17:29
Quote Originally posted by evilc:
in the book i laughed at the 'sex with a duck' bit for a VERY long time[/QUOTE]

It made me laugh also... and I'm now on page 401..and not wanting to go to work or even play shogun.. or post something on the forum..I need to read and read...

MarkF
08-04-2001, 06:23
Hmm, I read Shogun about a year ago and it really hooked me onto the era, even though its not entierally historiclly correct...

I didn't like Gaijin as much, though it was a materpiece as evryone of Clavells books. In my opinion it was to clearly an attempt to connect the worlds of tai-pan and shougon to each other, it just didn't produce that wonderful I-dont-want-to-put-down-the-book-and-sleep feeling that Shogun,Taipan and Noble house did.

But still I worship Clavell and I'm in the process of building an James Clavell shrine in my closet and I advise all of you to do the same http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

Toranaga sama
08-04-2001, 12:09
believe me, it's already built.... ;-)

roan
08-06-2001, 21:11
Quote Originally posted by Toranaga sama:
believe me, it's already built.... ;-)[/QUOTE]

Oh yes, I love his books. But I haven't read Whirlwind yet. Is it any good?

Gothmog
08-25-2001, 14:57
I read the chinese translation of it quite a while ago. Loved it so much that I had to read it over and over -- 3 times in a week! Now I am gonna find the english version of it and here we go ...

Omi
09-04-2001, 02:22
James Clavell is my favourite writer. I read Shogun over and over, and each time I discovered something new. It's universe is so complex, that you can't establish all the links only reading it once; you have to read it at least three times to understand the book throughly. Then, I found out that the book is only the first... Tai-Pan, Gai-jin, The Noble House...... King Rat is a great book, but it has no link whatsoever with the feudal Japan.

Read them all, and the picture is complete...

Great book, reflects the Shogun: Total War universe perfectly. Or is it the other way ? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Glad to know there are many others like me out there... My favourite clan is Hojo, they have a weak starting position, Takeda attacks you immediately in Musashi province. Then you ally with Uesugi... and so on.

Still I seem to have a problem with the mongol campaign. The first mission was a piece of cake, but I keep failing the second one. I kill as many enemy troops I can, even make them run, but it always says I lose. And I always won... Tried to kill the enemy generals first, even made it once, still, It says I lose. Busted my head over and over, can't seem to win, though the japanese are defeated by the time the fight is over.
Did you guys do it ? How ?

Ps: Hated Yabu-san all over the book.

Koga No Goshi
09-04-2001, 05:20
You've gotta be kidding! Yabu was the funniest guy in the whole book! LOL

Yeah, Shogun the game borrowed from Shogun the book/miniseries quite a bit, and you notice it if you've read the book and seen the miniseries. The video file for your daimyo's death looks almost like it was taken right from Mariko's funeral scene in the miniseries.



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Koga no Goshi

"Hokusai"
Now as a spirit
I shall roam
the summer fields.

roan
09-14-2001, 20:35
Quote Originally posted by Omi:
Still I seem to have a problem with the mongol campaign. The first mission was a piece of cake, but I keep failing the second one. I kill as many enemy troops I can, even make them run, but it always says I lose. And I always won... Tried to kill the enemy generals first, even made it once, still, It says I lose. Busted my head over and over, can't seem to win, though the japanese are defeated by the time the fight is over.
Did you guys do it ? How ?
[/QUOTE]

I think the problem is the number of troops alive. Certain missions can only be won if you keep, e.g., at least half of your troops alive. This should be explained in the "mission briefing" screen before the misson starts.

Roan



[This message has been edited by roan (edited 09-14-2001).]