Bonus vs cavalry.. or was it elephants?

[Barca]

Question: Can anyone explain the reasoning behind why hastati and principes get "Mount Modifier: elephant +6, chariot +6" while cohorts get "Mount Modifier: horse +4, chariot +4, camel +4"? After all, they carry the same equipment.

Most spear units get cav bonuses, but some have no bonus. Phalanxes seem to get bonus vs elephants. What´s the logic here? The way I see it a spear wall is a spear wall, whether you're an elephant or a horse.

And while I´m at it:
- Are the bonuses to attack only or both attack and defense?
- Can anyone explain why triarii, eastern spearmen etc. can't fight in several ranks? I do believe their spears were long enough.

Thanks :bow:

[Doug-Thompson]

I wish I had some answers for you, Barca. We're all trying to figure this stuff out.

[Red Harvest]

Hastati and principes do not get a mount effect bonus--at least they don't show up in the files I have. Triarii do, as do most other spears except trash units like town watch. Phalanx units have bonuses like that built in...supposedly. They can tear up cavalry pretty well...except for a few "jumpers."

A phalanx spearwall is more formidable than a less structured spear form. Pikes are much more effective still, because they are longer.

There are Eastern Heavy Infantry that can fight in phalanx (and for some inconsistent reason are the only phalanx to get a mount effect bonus as well.) Regular eastern infantry dont' get phalanx. Not all spear units fought in phalanx formation. Many fought more loosely, including the triarii apparently (which makes sense since they were a reserve, rather than a front line force as most phalanx units were.) Spear does not equal phalanx. In the hands of truly unskilled militia it doesn't even necessitate an anti-cav bonus.

[Watchman]

So far as I've seen in the export_descr_units file Hastati and Principes don't get any mount-related bonuses. Triarii (and later on Auxilia) get the usual spar-based mods (+4 horse, camel, chariot), while Velites (and later Light Auxilia) get the usual "peltast" +6 bonus against elephants and chariots.

So far as I've seen (not that I've expressly looked, but skimming the file has given me that impression) the +6 elephant/chariot bonus is pretty universal for javelin-throwing skirmishers. (I started using Light Auxulia as speed bumps against those annoying Egyptian chariots - they seemed to absorb them fairly well without excessive casualties.) Some of the javelin-toting barbarian mercenary units like the Illyrians and Cilicians don't get it, but then they're more light infantry than skirmishers anyway.

The Velite Gladiators the Brutii get had the same +6 chariot/'phant bonus, I seem to recall, which is probably their main selling point.

[Barca]

OK. Thanks for yor good answers.
Btw: Red Dawn, my mount modifiers are from http://www.stratcommandcenter.com/rtw/units/stats/?faction=romans_scipii
Haven't had the chance to check them out, so they might be wrong for all I know. Where are your files from?

Barca :bow:

[Red Harvest]

There are quite a few errors in their stats. Most of the base stats look OK, but the mount modifiers and hit points are wrong for several units I checked. They still have the 1.0 elephant hit points. I look up the info in the export_descr_units.txt file inside the "data" folder.

[Barca]

OK. Thanks for the tip. Good thing it was just the unit guide and not the game ~:) I'll use the export_descr_units.txt from now on then. :bow:

[Slon]

Most spear units get cav bonuses, but some have no bonus. Phalanxes seem to get bonus vs elephants. What´s the logic here? The way I see it a spear wall is a spear wall, whether you're an elephant or a horse.

Thanks :bow:

A line of spears means that only 1-2 spearmen will be able to hold an elephant at once. They certainly won't have enough strength to hold it well. However, a phalanx will have 4-8 long and heavy spears holding a single elephant at once, making it take more damage because the elephant won't just be able to rush into the spears and knock the single spearman down. I'm guessing that this is the logic.