Did Hollywood get Alexander right?

[Devastatin Dave]

http://www.nypost.com/entertainment/34381.htm

Alexander liked a bearded taco as well as a hat hunk of sausage, no doubt. But it appears that there are some complaints about the movie actually showing some insight of his sexuality. You guys know that usually I'm not the biggest fan of "alternate lifestyles" but I do think in order to be true to the character of Alexander you have to show that he really liked to hang out with the boys on occasion. Now for the rest of the picture, God only knows if they get anything historically correct about him. What do you guys think of the importance of showing this man's sexual influences in his life?

[Nelson]

Dave, I believe Alexander did kill one of his male lovers in a fit of rage. If the film does not explore his AC/DC nature then it will not adequately portray the mercurial violent temper that lead him to murder a very close friend. I'm hoping the movie tells it like it was, or at least how most historians think it was.

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

I'm really pleased they're doing this one right. I thought the total exclusion of any romantic relationship between Petroclus and Achilles in Troy was a massive let down.

[ah_dut]

Yes indeed, If a man is gay and that makes part of him what he is, why not show it that way?

[Hurin_Rules]

Yes, I think it is a sign of our immaturity as a culture that we can't have accurate depictions of other cultures whose society and sexual practices differ from our own. Or maybe hollywood just underestimates us. Making Patroclus Achilles 'cousin' in Troy was laughable. At least Stone is taking a chance, and for that you have to give him some credit.

[BDC]

Gay heroes don't go down well in America maybe?

[Don Corleone]

Actually, that's a good point, BDC. Kinda hard to have a typical American action hero when you think all gay guys are fruity. This is where I think things like "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy" does homosexuals a disservice, as it continues stereotypes. Maybe all AMERICAN gay men are effeminate, but that's hardly a mandate.

If Alexander was bisexual, and from most accounts of what I read, there was little doubt, I think they should bring that up.

Hadrian had a male slave he took around with him as a lover. A scandal arose about this, but it had more to do with him acting as the catcher. Apparently in Rome, as far as homosexuality was concerned, fine to give, shameful to receive. I think they thought that put you in a 'woman-like' role.

What's more, and I better step lightly here, didn't the "10,000" of the Persian empire sleep exclusively with other men because that thought that sex with women would weaken them?

[Slyspy]

Like many others I was annoyed by the censoring of the Achilles/Petroclus (sp?) relationship in Troy so I hope Alexander avoids this. Mind you Troy had South American llamas wandering around in the city so I guess missing out a homosexual relationship is nothing really.

[Aurelian]

I imagine that the money-men in Hollywood just aren't eager to take a risk on big budget action films that have homosexual or bi-sexual heroes. The studios are out to make money, and a big picture like "Troy" or "Alexander" is usually their main investment for the year. The main audience for an action picture is usually young men, and having a gay subtext in your storyline is not a way to win that audience.

"Troy" was also trying to pull in the 'horny female' demographic with Brad Pitt, Orlando Bloom, and a love story. I just wish they'd thought about the horny male demographic and gotten a better looking Helen. Oh, well. You know there's trouble in a movie about the Trojan War when Achilles is better looking than Helen.

The studios weren't likely to want to deal with the hassle of a gay Achilles and all the attendant controversy. The movie would probably have been blacklisted by the religious folk, and a gay Brad Pitt might have cut his sex appeal for the ladies. Of course, they could have done it more subtly, like the famous 'oysters and snails' scene in "Spartacus"; but that would have just creeped people out and diverted from the main love story.

Oliver Stone, though, will probably be able to get away with more than the usual run of the mill director because he has street-cred, and people expect his movies to be a little more intense and challenging than standard fare. I'm looking forward to seeing what he does with the issue. I have to say that Colin Farrell certainly looks gay as Alexander... with the bleach-blond hair and the short little skirt. I'm just going to cross my fingers and hope that the final movie isn't ridiculous.

[Steppe Merc]

I think that the movie will be very inhistorical. But he did sleep with boys very often, though later on he we went more to women. But pretty much all greeks and Macedonians had boy lovers as well as women. It was normal.


What's more, and I better step lightly here, didn't the "10,000" of the Persian empire sleep exclusively with other men because that thought that sex with women would weaken them?
No that was the Immortals. Your thinking of the Greek Sacred band, wich supposedly slept with each other, so they wouldn't run in front of their lovers. Historians aren't sure if it's true, however.


I just wish they'd thought about the horny male demographic and gotten a better looking Helen. Oh, well. You know there's trouble in a movie about the Trojan War when Achilles is better looking than Helen.
I thought Helen was hot... though I wish she had brown hair and brown eyes. But then, they all should have been darker complexion, as well as Alexander. While sometimes it's said he's blond, it's more comonly excepted that he was light brown haired, or dark blond at the most.

[PanzerJaeger]

"It was said ... that Alexander was never defeated, except by Hephaistion's thighs," the aged Ptolemy (Anthony Hopkins) says in narrating the saga.

Whether right or wrong, i can say from a strictly business oriented standpoint that this will not go well with people of any "group", young men, old men, wemon, whatever...

[Colovion]

It says that in the movie?

Haha, that'll be amusing to see who laughs and who gets that "shocked and disgusted" look.

[Goofball]

"It was said ... that Alexander was never defeated, except by Hephaistion's thighs," the aged Ptolemy (Anthony Hopkins) says in narrating the saga.

Whether right or wrong, i can say from a strictly business oriented standpoint that this will not go well with people of any "group", young men, old men, wemon, whatever...
Well, there is one obvious group I can think of that will like it...

[monkian]

The steelworkers of America ?


We work hard, and we play hard ~D

[Colovion]

hot stuff coming throoo!

*flails wrist*

tee hee

[Hosakawa Tito]

Actually, that's a good point, BDC. Kinda hard to have a typical American action hero when you think all gay guys are fruity. This is where I think things like "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy" does homosexuals a disservice, as it continues stereotypes. Maybe all AMERICAN gay men are effeminate, but that's hardly a mandate.

The effeminate stereotype, like most, is completely false. I know some homosexual cons from Attica State Prison that could/and did beat the living daylights out of just about anyone. One, a male prostitute from Manhattan named Tasha, had under gone hormone therapy to grow breasts. He/she was one of the most feared/respected cons in the jail. Nobody dared to cheat Tasha out of payment, cigarettes usually, for services rendered.

[Goofball]

*runs thru room singing "It's Raining Men" and pinches DevDave's bum on the way by*



:laugh4:

[PanzerJaeger]

Somehow i feel i shouldve been born 100 years ago... ~;)

[Don Corleone]

Look man, just cause you or I agree or disagree with certain behaviors, facts is facts. It really is the big 3 of monotheism (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) that have issue with homosexuality. There's all kinds of instances of prominent gay men and women in cultures outside those spheres of influence.

Can anyone offer any insight on why gay men (Andrew Sullivan excepted) themselves pander to that stereotype? When you see "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy", is the mindset "well, even if we have to camp it up to get on TV, better to be publicly out than not" ?

[Hurin_Rules]

I can tell you that a lot of gay men at least really dislike the whole flaming persona. A good friend of mine who's gay detests it all as a stereotype that straight people have used against gays. He dresses in jeans and t-Shirts and is a big guy who works out and could kick the crap out of most other guys. The stereotype certainly doesn't fit him, and in fact he actively discourages it in others.

[Beirut]

Gay heroes don't go down well in America maybe?

Oh I don't know, my brother's boyfriend was a US Marine. Arent they heroes?

~D

[Slyspy]

Yes but what about the llamas in Troy? Were they gay?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Gay heroes don't go down well in America maybe?

Scratches head


I guess it depends on who their going down on :lipsrsealed2:

Sorry I couldnt resist.

[Don Corleone]

That's what's ruining Western civilization!!! Gay llamas in Troy!!! By the way, not to open another can of worms, but I've read the Illiad several times, and honestly, I never got that Achilles and Patroclus were gay. That they were rather chummy, sure. That Achilles was a whiny git when he didn't get his way? Absolutely. That whole scene of him wrapping his arms around Thetis' legs (his mother) and crying because Briseis got taken away from him, I remember well. Did they actually mention the two of them being intimate in the book, or are we using the filter of "close male friends, ancient Greece, must be gay..."?

[Slyspy]

I'm not so sure that the modern distinction of hetero-, bi- and homosexual would have applied so it is rather difficult to tell.

Those llamas were gay then? Thought so. Still its a long way to travel from the Andes just to have your honeymoon ruined by some angry Greeks.

[PanzerJaeger]

Oh I don't know, my brother's boyfriend was a US Marine. Arent they heroes?

Yea he is, but i wouldnt suggest him mentioning that little tidbit. ~;)

[Beirut]

Panzer,

Gotcha! ~;)

"Shhhhhhhhh..."

[Dhepee]

That's what's ruining Western civilization!!! Gay llamas in Troy!!! By the way, not to open another can of worms, but I've read the Illiad several times, and honestly, I never got that Achilles and Patroclus were gay. That they were rather chummy, sure. That Achilles was a whiny git when he didn't get his way? Absolutely. That whole scene of him wrapping his arms around Thetis' legs (his mother) and crying because Briseis got taken away from him, I remember well. Did they actually mention the two of them being intimate in the book, or are we using the filter of "close male friends, ancient Greece, must be gay..."?

It has to do with the Greek words used. In English if I say "I love you" the meaning of that will be largely contextual, are you my brother, close friend, father, spouse, lover? Classical Greek was much more specific. It would use different words to show different contextual meanings. There were several versions of the word "love" each having a different meaning. The argument is that the verb forms in the Classical Greek show that Achilles "loved" Patrocolus as more than just a friend.

[Don Corleone]

AAAH. Eros, not philos. Okay, well, granted I read it when I was in a Catholic high school.

[English assassin]

I'm not so sure that the modern distinction of hetero-, bi- and homosexual would have applied so it is rather difficult to tell.

This is an important point. I think I read that to be exclusively homosexual was not enormously well thought of, but to be bisexual, and particularly for an adult man to have a sort of mentoring plus relationship with a teenage boy, was unremarkable.

Without wanting to overstep the boundaries of the board, my mate who read classics tells me that certain sorts of modern gay sexual behaviour would not have been well thought of. Anything that might make you say "ouch", if you get my meaning.

Somehow I doubt the film is going to go to that level of detail. I'm not sure it needs to, after all Alexander whould have had an unremarkable sexuality to a Greek, so it might in a sense be truer to the story if not to history to give him a sexuality we would find unremarkable today. Though I did find the Patroclus cop out in Troy pathetic.

[Navaros]

any movie that promotes sodomy is not a movie i'll see. i do not support such things as i believe them to be immoral, depraved and evil

so no in my view Hollywood did not get Alexander right because there is nothing "right" about a male committing sodomy on another male

[Dhepee]

any movie that promotes sodomy is not a movie i'll see. i do not support such things as i believe them to be immoral, depraved and evil

so no in my view Hollywood did not get Alexander right because there is nothing "right" about a male committing sodomy on another male

Interesting. So you would rather see a movie that was inaccurate than see something that you construe as immoral.

[Goofball]

so no in my view Hollywood did not get Alexander right because there is nothing "right" about a male committing sodomy on another male
What if they stuck strictly to fellatio?

~;)

[BDC]

What if they stuck strictly to fellatio?

~;)
That's acceptable presumeably.

I don't see how you can really compare this to modern values.

This is all long before the tyranny of the giant, unaccepting and untolerant monotheisic religions, so morals were a lot more diverse and relaxed I imagine.

[Navaros]

Interesting. So you would rather see a movie that was inaccurate than see something that you construe as immoral.

if that movie is going to portray one who does such vile evil acts as a "Hero" - which this Stone movie does - then yes, better to be inaccurate rather than to promote evildoing by sending the sick message "doing that is ok, even Heros do it!"

if however, an Alexander movie came out that portrays Alexander as an evil man who lived a shameful, disgraceful, immoral life - then "accuracy" may be ok in that case

[Goofball]

if that movie is going to portray one who does such vile evil acts as a "Hero" - which this Stone movie does - then yes, better to be inaccurate rather than to promote evildoing by sending the sick message "doing that is ok, even Heros do it!"

if however, an Alexander movie came out that portrays Alexander as an evil man who lived a shameful, disgraceful, immoral life - then "accuracy" may be ok in that case
Interesting. So, by your line of reasoning, any "hero" who has ever done anything immoral (by your definition of immoral, at least) is disgusting and shameful and is not really a hero at all? In other words, one "wrong" cancels out a thousand "rights?"

Man, I would hate to be one of your children. Constantly living in fear of doing something Dad found to be offensive and being eternally condemned because of it would be more than I could handle...

[Devastatin Dave]

*runs thru room singing "It's Raining Men" and pinches DevDave's bum on the way by*



:laugh4:


*after being pinched, puts on a pair of chaps and begins singing "YMCA"*

[Xiahou]

Well, I had this movie figured to be total crap before I heard this latest bit of info, and my opinion hasnt been changed by it. ~;)

Honestly, Farrell is such a horrible actor, Jolie isnt much better, and Stone.... is Stone.

[DemonArchangel]

Sodomy or not, Alexander was a freakin' brilliant general. But they should have gotten a midget to play him as Alexander was a very, very short person.

[Steppe Merc]

Um DA, I don't think a midget could ride a horse too well... :charge:


any movie that promotes sodomy is not a movie i'll see. i do not support such things as i believe them to be immoral, depraved and evil

so no in my view Hollywood did not get Alexander right because there is nothing "right" about a male committing sodomy on another male
I see... well for once I think PJ had a argument that I agree with... I fail to see how accuratly showing that Alexander was bisexual (he liked women a lot too) would detract from his brillance. It will (should) also show that he was really into drunken orgies, and killing lots of people. Does him having a male lover or two make him any worse than killing people and being a real boozer made him? Alexander was Alexander, and part of who he was was that in addition to being a military genius he was also sometimes insane, drunk, and very horny for both sexes. Otherwise, he would be someone else, not Alexander. He wasn't evil, and he wasn't good. He was.

[ah_dut]

He was a genius and most true geniuses are deranged and more than slightly mad

[Aurelian]

And so the fun begins...


New 'Alexander' Movie Under Fire for Sexual Portrait

20 minutes ago Entertainment - Reuters

By Arthur Spiegelman

LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - Oliver Stone's new film about Alexander the Great depicts the king as bisexual, fueling outrage from Greeks and prompting Hollywood to ask if a world conqueror with dyed blond hair and waxed legs will be able to attract box office hordes.

One newspaper calls it a case of "Queer Eye for the Macedonian Guy." Others have speculated that Stone, always a controversial filmmaker, is taking a big risk with a $160 million epic by including scenes of passionate embrace between Alexander and his best friend Hephaestion.

The Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation (news - web sites) (GLAAD) says the film breaks new ground for a big budget epic because it shows Hephaestion "as the true love of Alexander's life."

A line from the film says: "Alexander was defeated only once -- by Hephaestion's thighs."

Last summer's blockbuster film "Troy," which could have portrayed Achilles and Patroclus as lovers, brushed aside any homoerotic elements to concentrate on Achilles desire for a Trojan princess.

Everyone associated with "Alexander," from Stone to star Colin Farrell, insist the film, which opens on Wednesday, is historically accurate and reflects the pagan mores of around 330 BC when the Macedonian king captured the world's mightiest empire, Persia, and pressed on to the ends of the Earth.

Farrell, in a recent interview with Reuters, said he had no problem with the role because "Oliver made the film as historically accurate as possible and ambivalent sexuality was something of the times and part of the character."

Stone said he kept the movie accurate and had an historian on the set. He added there was no question that Alexander had "a polymorphous sensuality and was an explorer in the deepest sense of the world."

British scholar Robin Lane (news) Fox, author of a biography of Alexander and historical advisor to the film, said homosexuality and bisexuality were not "issues in ancient times" and that Alexander had extensive relations with women.

But a group of angry Greek lawyers say Stone and the film's distributor Warner Bros., a unit of Time Warner Inc. , should be sued for twisting history. The lawyers said they have asked Stone and Warner Bros. to include a reference in the title credits saying the film is fictional. Spokesmen for Warner Bros. and Stone did not have any immediate comment.

"We are not saying that we are against gays, but we are saying that the production company should make it clear to the audience that this film is pure fiction and not a true depiction of the life of Alexander," Yannis Varnakos, who is spearheading the legal campaign, told Reuters in Athens.

Two years ago, hundreds of Greeks from Alexander's home turf Macedonia, stormed an archeological symposium after one speaker presented a paper on the homosexuality of Alexander.

Stone's film, which he had been trying to get on the screen for 15 years, was filmed mainly in Morocco and Thailand. The Athens News Agency said no scenes were shot in Greece because of government opposition to Stone's portrayal of the Greek hero.

Asked if he toned down scenes, Stone maintained he shot the film the way he wanted. The only overtly sexual scene in the movie is a wedding night love scene between Alexander and his wife Roxanne that starts with her putting a knife to his throat after she catches him accepting a ring from Hephaestion, who is played by Jared Leto wearing eyeliner.

[Aurelian]

A line from the film says: "Alexander was defeated only once -- by Hephaestion's thighs."

I believe that in ancient Greece, men/boys would usually engage in... how shall we say this... hot thigh sex, rather than the form of sodomy that we normally think about. Pictures on urns seem to indicate that this was the more common practice.


Sodomy or not, Alexander was a freakin' brilliant general. But they should have gotten a midget to play him as Alexander was a very, very short person.

I just did a Google search on "Colin Farrell height" to see how tall he is and there were different measurements, including 5'9, 5'10, 5'11, and 6'0. I was under the impression that he was short, so I'd guess that he's probably on the low end of that scale. Still, that's average adult human male size.

Somewhere above, people mentioned Alexander and Helen's hair color. I think Helen was actually supposed to be blond. Alexander too, though probably not the bleach blond color Farrell seems to be sporting.

As for Alexander's heroism and its portrayal by Stone... I think he'll include all of Alexander's heroic and psychotic tendencies, because it'll make for a more interesting story. That's probably one of the reasons he chose Colin Farrell for the role. Farrell always comes across as edgy and twisted (so does Jolie for that matter).

[Slyspy]

I like the fact that those Greeks are getting wound up by the film. OMG it shows a Macedonian king from ancient times being bisexual. Presumably they fear that viewers will think all Greek men are homosexuals and therefore bring into question their masculinity. Laughable really. A certain poster here would fit right in!

PS
For those obsessed with sodomy I would like to point out that this act is not a necessary feature of a homosexual relationship. In fact, in the time of Alexander, anal intercourse was frowned upon and it is likely that most relationships did not involve sodomy. There are examples IIRC of individuals who did engage in sodomy being looked down upon by the rest of society. Also to those who believe that the era was a time of few strictures regarding morality, including attitudes to sex, I would suggest that the ancients merely had a different morality.

[Spino]

I don't like most of Stone's movies and I think his recent projects have been terrible. Furthermore the pre-release buzz is that this Alexander biopic is a bit of a mess. However the production values look amazing and there have been precious few pictures made about this period in ancient Greece's history. Therefore I am compelled to shell out my hard earned cash and see this one on the big screen. It's Alexander the freakin' Great for Pete's sake!

[bmolsson]

This movies is just like homosexuality. If it's not your gig, don't watch it. I am sure that there is a bible reading session you can participate at instead...... ~;)

[hellenes]

first of all :

ALEXANDER WAS NOT GAY/BISEXUAL!!!

Second i challenge ANYONE to give a ACCURATE SOURCE
PROVING ALEXANDERS HOMOSEXUALITY/BISEXUALITY!!!

Dont judge others based upon yourselves...

Hellenes

[DemonArchangel]

Hellenes, we don't have to
it's hollywood.

[Navaros]

This movies is just like homosexuality. If it's not your gig, don't watch it. I am sure that there is a bible reading session you can participate at instead...... ~;)


two things: Bible is spelled with a capital "B".

i won't watch Alexander and i will also caution everyone i know not to watch it to because it promotes immorality and evildoing. i know many others will feel the same way. hopefully enough so that this movie tanks.

[DemonArchangel]

Navaros, why not just download alexander instead? you're still screwing mr. stone out of his money and you get to enjoy a free movie as well.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

RPT-Outraged Greeks say Alexander was not bisexual

ATHENS, Nov 19 (Reuters) - A group of Greek lawyers are threatening to sue Warner Bros film studios and Oliver Stone, director of the widely anticipated film "Alexander," for suggesting Alexander the Great was bisexual.

The lawyers have already sent an extrajudicial note to the studio and director demanding they include a reference in the title credits saying his movie is a fictional tale and not based on official documents of the life of the Macedonian ruler.

"We are not saying that we are against gays but we are saying that the production company should make it clear to the audience that this film is pure fiction and not a true depiction of the life of Alexander," Yannis Varnakos, who spearheads the campaign by 25 lawyers, told Reuters on Friday.

Stone was quoted on the MSNBC.com Web Site as telling the upcoming edition of Playboy magazine that the film's depiction of Alexander could offend some.

"We go into his bisexuality. It may offend some people, but sexuality in those days was a different thing," he was quoted as saying.

While the film starring Colin Farrell and Angelina Jolie will be released on Nov. 24, Varnakos said he has already gathered enough information regarding the content of the movie to suggest there are "inappropriate references."

"We have not seen the film but from the information we have already there are references to his alleged homosexuality, a fact that is in no historical document or archive on Alexander," he said. "Either they make it clear that this is a work of fiction or we will take the case further."

This is not the first time Greeks have been angered by suggestions Alexander was homosexual and had affairs with young men.

Two years ago hundreds of northern Greeks from the province of Macedonia, where he was born, stormed an archaeological symposium after one speaker presented a paper on the homosexuality of Alexander. Police were called in to evacuate the participants.

One of the greatest military leaders of all time, Alexander, who was never defeated in battle, conquered about 90 percent of the then-known world before his mysterious death at the age of 32, building an empire that stretched from the Mediterranean to Afghanistan.

Varnakaos said as Stone has the right to freely express himself, the audience should have the right to know.

"We cannot come out and say that (former U.S.) President John F. Kennedy was a shooting guard for the Los Angeles Lakers basketball team and so Warner cannot come out and say Alexander was gay," Varnakos said.

So can anyone prove Alexander was bi sexual or not?

[Lazul]

Gha!, I say Gha!

The movie does not promote evildoing, not more then any other war-movies.

Well I like war on the screen and hate it in real life... same goes for violence... and I get really offended when people talk down on homosexuallity, I have several homosexual friends and they are some of the greatest human beings I have ever met.

And its a proven fact that greeks had alot of gay sex, but so what? I just fail to see problem here!?!? What ever goes on in bedroom is NOT and NEVER will be anyone ellses problem!!

[Gawain of Orkeny]

What ever goes on in bedroom is NOT and NEVER will be anyone ellses problem!!

Seems these Greek lawyers disagree with you as it does when you put it on the big screen and claim it as fact .

[monkian]

I find it odd that Navaros feels Alexancer was evil because of his sexual practices rather than the amount of bloodshed and violence he caused.


Its funny how Americans have a problem with sex and not with violence. I think its probably the opposite in Europe.

Then again Muslims are the same as Americans - maybe its a Muslim/Christian thing.

[hellenes]

And its a proven fact that greeks had alot of gay sex, but so what? I just fail to see problem here!?!? What ever goes on in bedroom is NOT and NEVER will be anyone ellses problem!!

WHAT ARE YOUR SOURCES?

EVIDENCE?

DOCUMENTED REFERENCES?

Ill tell you what NOTHING!!!

Just the usual habit of judging others based upon yourself....

Hellenes

[monkian]

I dunno. Hellenes is quite a 'fruity' sounding name...

[hellenes]

I dunno. Hellenes is quite a 'fruity' sounding name...

Its not a name its a nationality...
And if you want an opinion just think what the world thinks about the americans after the elections ~;) ~;) ~;) ~;)

Hellenes

[monkian]

Meh, there was more man-on-man action in ancient Greece than in Big Gay Al's bedroom.

[DemonArchangel]

http://www.pothos.org/alexander.asp?paraID=42

hmm...

[hellenes]

http://www.pothos.org/alexander.asp?paraID=42

hmm...

there is no indisputable evidence for such an attachment between Alexander and Hephaistion
three Greek historians (Arrian, Diodorus and Plutarch) never term him erastes or eromenos, only philos or malista timomenos. Alexander himself calls him philalexandros (friend of Alexander). Curtius and Justin use only amicus, never amans. The only implication of a sexual relationship or use of the term eromenos for Hephaistion occurs in late sources or those of dubious authorship. [Ael. VH 12.7, Epic. Dis. 2.12.17-18, Diog. Epistles 24, and Luc. Dial. Dead 397.]

HMMMMM

Hellenes

[DemonArchangel]

well, alexander was just plain sexual, how about that?

[Snowhobbit]

Hellenes, I'm just wondering since you seem to take this very personally, are you Alexander the Great? ~;)

[hellenes]

Hellenes, I'm just wondering since you seem to take this very personally, are you Alexander the Great? ~;)

Yesssssssssss.....
But dont tell anyone......*wears the helmet and spurs the imaginary horse*

Jokes aside Im worried more about the people who will see the movie and think:
"well the greatest general of all time was a fag haha those greeks are sissies admiring him"

and Hollywood wins...

Hellenes

[DemonArchangel]

The greatest general of all time wasn't Alexander
it was Genghis Khan.

[Goofball]

two things: Bible is spelled with a capital "B".

i won't watch Alexander and i will also caution everyone i know not to watch it to because it promotes immorality and evildoing. i know many others will feel the same way. hopefully enough so that this movie tanks.
Good to see you're such a pillar of morality, Nav. Based on that statement, I would expect you are a very busy man. After all, if you are going to spend so much time and effort campaigning against a movie that shows something as sinful as two men kissing, I shudder to think of all the campaigning you must do to boycott every movie that shows one person killing another. I mean, committing murder is breaking an actual Commandment for God's sake! So it must offend you even more than two men kissing!

[nokhor]

The steelworkers of America ?


We work hard, and we play hard ~D


nice Simpsons reference!!!

[L'Impresario]

Jokes aside Im worried more about the people who will see the movie and think:
"well the greatest general of all time was a fag haha those greeks are sissies admiring him"


The people who shall think this are not very different from the ones claiming Alexander was really a "mucho" modern greek guy, and refuse to acknowledge the historical background and context of the period he lived in. Hoping to find direct reference to sexual relationship between two men in ancient historical texts (btw this isn't the aim of the writers) most of the time is like closing your eyes before the undeniable fact (beaten to death this one) that morality and sexual customs were very different than today. The "symposium" is also a subject analysed to the extreme and the close relations between ,usually, young men and their mentors are in addition depicted in ancient greek vases extensively. No use in denying that the whole military system of Sparta and Thebes was based on the "friendship/love" between men.
A viable question (well, I haven't researched this side of the topic) could be whether the Macedonians followed these social practices of the soutnern territories and to what extent. I think that Arrian's references to Alexander's participation in many "symposiums" shows not a "fanatical" bisexual attitude but rather the entirely different lifestyle of those times. I can provide the passages that more than hint Alexander's "bonding" with Hephaistion. something that surpasses the narrow term "friendship" as we know it today. As i consider Arrion the most accurate writer on the subject (on a prototype basis), 1.12.1, 2.12.6, and most chapters from book 7 (after chapter13) showcase their relation, in a most serious manner that avoids overreactions to it.Better not forget that the writer is a historian who doesn't fear to criticise Alexander, but in this case he avoids referring to the relationship (something probably quite normal at the time) and directs his comment at the somehow extreme character of the macedonian ruler, especially considering Alexander's actions after the death of his friend. Very interesting is the Achilles-Patroclos reference, twice, and Alexander-Hephaistion parallel. Taken that Al. admired Achilles and tried to mimic him at times, a contemporary psychologist could draw many conclusions regarding his manners and character ~;)
Therefore, refusing the existence of this intimate relationship is based on other criteria, very far from historical accuracy and the need to preserve it. 25 greek lawyers is a very low number for those that know the harsh reality surrounding them in Greece ~D poor fellows, they got nothing more serious to do and so they initialise "the great campaign" to save us from the wicked Hollywood which tries to undermine the greek race and all its achievements in order to culturally conquer them later on :dizzy2: Ofcourse they got nothing against homosexuals and bisexuals ("didides" ~;) ), god forbid.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

I find it odd that everyone says the Greeks practiced homosexuality when we the catholic church gets its ideas on marriage and homosexuality being wrong from the Greeks.


Bruce Thornton, Eros: The Myth of Ancient Greek Sexuality


Homosexuality is no easier for us so called moderns to understand than it was for the Greeks.

Very little if any evidence from ancient Greece survives that shows adult males or females as same-sex couples involved in an ongoing, reciprocal sexual and emotional relationship in which the age difference is no more significant than it is in heteros exual relationships.

Thus the evidence from ancient Greece involves either man-youth homosexuality or the precisely defined passive homosexual of kinaidos, the adult male who perversely enjoys being penetrated by other males and who has sex with women only because of socie tal pressure.



Another major impediment to understanding homosexuality for both ancients and moderns is the confusion of nature and culture in explaining it.

Science says that homosexual men may have part of the anterior hypothalamus two to three times smaller than heterosexual men

Yet we are still not much farther along in discovering the biological roots of homosexuality than Victorian adventurer Richard Francis Burton, who theorized about a "sotadic [homosexual] zone" a geographical band precisely located between 30 and 43 degrees northern latitude in which people are prone to homosexuality



Is homosexuality "natural" for the Greeks?

The Greeks have two concepts of nature:

1. Nature as an order with which man’s laws should be consistent

Many Greek philosophers believed that the cosmos reflected some sort of rational order, thus "natural" would denote behavior consistent with that order.

One could then act "unnaturally" by indulging in behavior that subverted that order and its purpose.

The "rational" and "natural" purpose of sex is Procreation, but then ALL sexual acts, heterosexual and homosexual, that do not lead to procreation would have to be deemed



"unnatural". Plato takes this view in the Laws, and it becomes part of Christian philosophy.



2. A second view of nature was that it was an assemblage of destructive forces overthrowing reason and law. It was savage and monstrous and inhuman

In these terms eros is a natural energy flowing out from humans onto ANY object — same-sex paramour, child, relative or beast. There is no qualitatively distinct category of "homosexual" or "heterosexual" because by definition eros is indiscriminate. Thus a Greek would not categorize as homosexual a man who has penetrated another.

Any limitations of eros arise not from the inherent nature of sexual activity that directs itself toward one object or another, but from the literally unnatural — the codes, laws, customs and institutions of society that define the proper and im proper objects and occasions of sexual activity



Both of these explanations of homosexuality — unnatural perversion of sex, or excessive expression of its essential nature — can be found in ancient Greek literary remains.

If we choose one of the two, we are oversimplifying the complexity of attitudes attested to in the evidence.



If we look at male homosexuality as we understand it today, there are two adult partners.

In Greece, the kinaidos is the passive homosexual whose inability to control his appetite, his itch for sexual pleasure, induces him to forsake his masculinity and submit to anal penetration.

In either concept of nature, the kinaidos is condemned:

The kinaidos become the emblem of unrestrained compulsive sexual appetite, or surrender to the chaos of natural passion that threatens civilized order, a traitor to his sex, a particularly offensive manifestation of eros’s power over the masculine mind that is responsible for creating and maintaining that order in the face of nature’s chaos.

Greek ideas on the origins of homosexuality:

Both myth and history imply a time when homosexuality did not exist, at least in the form of pederasty.



Myth of Chrysippus — in a lost play of Euripides. Chrysippus was kidnapped and raped by Laius, father of Oedipus. Chrysippus then killed himself because of shame. In another version of the myth, Oedipus killed his father Laius him as punishment.



Plato understood the myth to finger Laius as the inventor of homosexuality.

In the Laws the Athenian Stranger says that "following nature" legislators would make the law as it was "before Laius" when sex with men and youths as thought they were women was forbidden on the model of animals, which Plato mistak enly believed restricted sex to procreation.

Thus in this dialogue he sees the state of nature as one in which homosexuality did not exist.

Thus homosexuality is a historical innovation, a result of the depraved human imagination and vulnerability to pleasure





Euripides saw homosexuality as one of the forces overthrowing reason and law. — Laius’ crime initiated a chain reaction of erotic disorder culminating in Oedipus’ incest and parricide, and a blight in Thebes that blasted the newborn life of humans, her ds, and grain alike.

Euripides, then, in contrast to Plato, sees homosexual eros as a constant of human nature



Another origin for homosexuality among the Greeks is located among the Dorians, who were more warlike than the Spartans, and swept through Greece toward the end of the second millennium and ultimately occupied most of the Peloponese and Crete.

Plato’s Athenian Stranger holds the Dorians responsible for "corrupting the pleasures of sex which are according to nature, not just for men but for beasts"

Later in the Laws he again condemns homosexuality on the grounds of not being according to nature because it does not lead to procreation



Aristotle attributes homosexuality to the Dorians . It arose out of the practical need to control population, which accounts as well for the segregation of women

Elsewhere Aristotle says that homosexuals can be born as well as made

They are a deviation from the norm

Some "diseased things" result from nature or habit — pulling out one’s hair, nailbiting, eating coals or earth and sex between males. The last one often results from childhood sexual abuse.

Even pederasty, then, possibly contributes to a morbid condition, even though it is a basis of the educational system..



The most famous and straightforward instance of the ancient Greek belief that homosexuals are born and not made can be found in Aristophanes’ myth of human sexual origins in Plato’s Symposium

We were once perfect and self-sufficient physical beings. We had the circular form "similar in every direction" imagined by early philosophy to be the shape of the god

Now punished for our overweening attempt to make ourselves rulers of everything, we are creatures cut in half, severed from our other part and made, by a turning of our heads, to look always at the cut, jagged from side of ourselves that reminds us of our lack.

Looking at the contingent loss that cuts us off from the wishes of our imagination, itself still apparently intact, we become preoccupied with the project of returning to the wholeness of our former natures.

But to remedy one piece of luck another must happen: we must each find the unique other half from which we were severed.

The one hope of "healing" for our human nature is to unite in love with this other oneself and, indeed to become fused with that one, insofar as this is possible.

Eros is the name of this desire and pursuit of the whole.

The myth in one sense mocks humans (according to Martha Nussbaum).

We think, as humans, that the human shape is something beautiful; the story gets us to consider that, from the point of view of the whole or the god, the circular shape may be formally the most beautiful and adequate

The shape we have ended up with seems like the object of a joke, or a punishment:

Jagged form, equipped with untidy folds of skin around the middle, its head turned towards this imperfection and newly expressing, in its searching gazes, its sense of incompleteness

Its exposed and dangling genital members now no longer efficiently, externally sowing seed into the earth, but instead placed on the side of the "cutting", desiring both reproduction and healing.

As we hear this myth of passionate groping and grasping, we are invited to think how odd, after all, it is that bodies should have these holes and projections in them, odd that the insertion of a projection into an opening should be thought, by ambitio us and intelligent beings, a matter of the deepest concern

From the outside we cannot help but laugh. They want to be gods, and here they are, running around anxiously trying to thrust a piece of themselves inside a hole; or , perhaps more comical still, waiting in the hope that some hole of theirs will have something thrust into it.

The comedy comes in the sudden perception of ourselves from another vantage point, the sudden turning round of our heads and eyes to look at human genitals and faces, our unrounded, desiring and vulnerable parts.



The individual is loved not only as a whole, but also as a unique and irreplaceable whole.

For each person there is exactly one "other half"

There is nothing like a general description of a suitable or ‘fitting’ lover, satisfiable by a number of candidates, that could serve as a sufficient criterion of suitability.

It is mysterious what does make another person the lost half of you, more mysterious still how you come to know that

What makes these creatures fall in love is a sudden swelling up of feelings of kinship and intimacy, the astonishment of finding in a supposed stranger a deep part of your being.



The very need that gives rise to erotic pursuit is an unnatural, contingent lack, at least when viewed from the point of view of human reason.

Here are these ridiculous creatures cut in half, trying to do with these bodies what came easily for them when they had a different bodily nature

The body is a course of limitation and distress. They do not feel one with it, and they wish they had one of a different sort; or, perhaps, none at all.



Eros, so necessary to continued life and to "healing" from distress, comes to the cut-up creature by sheer chance, if at all

His or her other half is somewhere, but it is hard to see what reason and planning can do to make that half turn up

The creatures "search" and "come together", but it is plainly not in their power to ensure the happy reunion

It is difficult to accept that something as essential to our good as love is at the same time so much a matter of chance



Before the invention of sexual intercourse, the two halves embraced unsatisfied, until both died of hunger and other needs

The possibility of intercourse, a new ‘stratagem’ provided by the pitying god, brought the procreation of children and a temporary respite from physical tension



The satisfaction achieved in this way is incomplete. What these lovers really want is not simply a momentary physcial pleasure with its ensuing brief respite from bodily tension.

Their deep need comes from the soul. The soul cannot describe it.

We know that they wish for the impossible: they wish to become one, yet they will always remain two.



It is true that the smith might bring their bodies together, but their desire is for unity of the soul



If they got that fusion, this wholeness would put an end to all movement and all passion

A sphere would not have intercourse with anyone

It would not eat, or doubt, or drink

It would not even move this way or that, because it would have no reason; it would be complete



Eros is the desire to be a being without any contingent occurrent desires. It is a second-order desire that all desires should be cancelled





Thornton, Chap 8 Eros the Pedagogue



Pederasty has its ATHENIAN origins with Solon

Sixth century Athenian Solon was one of the city’s most impt statesman

His reforms broke the political and economic hold the aristocracy had on the people, laying the groundwork for the full blown democracy of the 5c

He wrote poetry in which he justified his reforms and expounded his political phil

Here the distance between ancient Greece and modern America begins to appear immense — can anyone imagine a 20c president or senator defending his political program in highly finished hexameter verse

Stranger still are the verses among Solon’s fragments that tell of loving a "boy in the lovely flower of youth, desiring his thighs and sweet mouth". Now the difference between ourselves and the ancient Greeks becomes nearly incomprehensible

Any public figure who voiced such sentiments would be branded a pervert worthy of opprobrium and ostracism, even if the youth was in his teens, the age of the objects of ancient Gk boy love

Pedophiles, along with rapists, are one of the last minorities it is still respectable to despise and insult

Our cult of sentimental exculpating tolerance has no room for them

Just the allegations of pederasty impel Michael Jackson to spend $15 million killing the investigation of the accusation

The gay establishment welcomes sadomasochists and transsexuals but keeps a careful distance from the North American Man Boy Love Association, whose members fancy themselves the true heirs of Socrates and Plato



What makes it particularly difficult for us to understand this is the distinct aristocratic and militaristic aura that clings to ancient pederasty, given that America has never had an aristocracy and that the advent of a mercenary army means very few o f us experience military life and values anymore



The origins of pederasty were located among the Dorians, the best known of whom, the Spartans were the most militaristic people in the ancient world

Spartans were aristocratic elitists supported by a suppressed majority of serfs who worked the land

Citizens devoted most of their time to military training

All of male Spartan life was structured by a military order in which from an early age boys lived together in barracks under the supervision of an adolescent boy

They were constantly under the surveillance of older men as well, for whom they displayed their talents, whose approval they eagerly sought and disapproval fearfully shunned, and who were responsible for the mettle of their beloved — Plutarch reports t hat a youth who screamed in pain during battle got his admirer punished by the state

The Spartans supposedly sacrificed to Eros before every battle

In this male world of aristocratic martial values, of shared meals and naked exercising, of boys eagerly seeking the approval of older males, pederasty could easily flourish

That is the opinion of the Athenian Stranger in the Laws, who blames homosexuality on the Dorian institutions



A fourth century historian Ephorus records a custom in Crete, settled by the Dorian Greeks, illustrating the extent to which pederasty was ritualized in Dorian culture

An older man would inform the family of a boy he fancied of his intentions. If the family considered the wooer worthy, they pretended to resist, but he would succeed in making off with the boy and hiding out with him for 2 mos Afterward the couple ret urned to the city, the boy receiving presents of armor, an ox, and a cup and considerable prestige at being so chosen

This connection of homosexuality and Spartan militarism was something of a commonplace by the time of Plato



Plato’s Phaedrus in the Symposium claims an army of lovers would be unbeatable, for they would do nothing shameful in the presence of their lovers

The famous Sacred Band of Thebes, 150 pairs of lovers killed to a man by Philip of Macedon at the battle of Chaeronea in 338 were supposedly such an army



Boy love then, was not a private pleasure or relationship but a part of the social structure of the polis, one of its "technologies" for controlling the powerful force of Eros

Eros in ancient Greek thought, some philosophers aside is "polymorphously perverse" — flowing out toward any object

But if these objects are citizen boys or men, the dangers of eros are magnified— the citizen who submits to anal penetration opens his soul up to a compulsive appetite destructive of the social and political order embodied and upheld by male citizens

Thus the very real sexual attraction to boys of those among the ruling elite is even more volatile than heterosexual eros

The citizen wife who is corrupted is not violating her essential feminine nature. She is under the sway of her irrational passions anyway, necessitating the control of marriage and husbands. But the male is supposed to be more rational, more in contr ol of his appetite — that is why he runs the city.

The "technology" of boy love, then, requires a delicate balancing act between acknowledging the power of homosexual eros without corrupting the boy who is its object, turning him into the dreaded kinaidos.

This explains the numerous, almost ritualistic controls surrounding and organizing boy love and the anxious caution with which it is treated in the ancient sources.



Remember that this is not the behavior or proclivities of the "average Greek".

Pederasty in the Greek literary remains (mostly Athenian from the late fifth to fourth centuries) is clearly an aristocratic institution.

The high proletarian "good old boys" and small farmers of Aristophanes certainly see it as the hoity toity pastime of the nobles and those who ape their fashions

Since the majority of the Gk pop in most poleis worked the soil, pederasty was not a well known experience to most Greeks



Boy love is assimilated to the woman in a number of swys, particularly in the high value placed on his lack of facial and body hair and his "smoothness" and "softness".

Girlish behavior was likewise desirable in the boy.

Shyness and blushing were equally charming.

There were other ways in which the man boy relationship was patterned on the male-female relationship. Boys were courted with gifts, like women, except that girls were wooed indirectly, using family males as intermediaries.

Just as numerous laws protected virgins and married women from sexual corruption, similar laws had as their aim the protection of citizen boys whose legal and political status was parallel to that of women, both being subordinated to older male relativ es and both devoid of political rights



Some forbade the teacher or head of the gymnasium from opening their establishments before sunrise or keeping them open after sunset, so that no darkness was available for the corruption of boys

Older boys were forbidden from fraternizing with the younger, and the producer of the choruses of boys, the choregus, had to be over 40 years old, since that was considered the time of life when a man was most "self controlled/chaste



In the Symposium Pausanias remarks on the less formal means fathers use to protect their sons, such as assigning a slave to watch over the boy and keep him away from any pursuers



Just as the young girl and her sexual force were subordinated to her role as wife in the household, so the boy and his sexual power were channeled into teaching him his proper role as "good and beautiful/noble citizen"

Eros was the most important instructor of wisdom and inspirer of virtue

Plato’s Phaedrus explains the psychological mechanism by which the boy learns the proper values. Because the beloved wants to impress his lover, he is ashamed at any behavior not noble or admirable. He would rather die than shame himself before his a dmirer

Phaedrus is here clearly voicing a rationale for boy love that any Athenian aristocrat would approve



Pedagogical function of pederasty also involves the ethical ideal of reciprocity which provides another rational control for pederastic eros

Much of Gk everyday ethics was based on the do ut des I give so that you may give model

Gods were worshiped and given gifts of sacrifice and offerings so that their power would be turned to the mortal’s benefit

The parent child relationships could be structured by this paradigm: parents tend children when they are weak so children will tend them when they are weak

Aristocratic values were particularly reflective or reciprocity based on absolute identity of friends and enemies

"Help friends, hurt enemies" is ubiquitous in Greek literature

You owe help to a philos, a friend/dear one, and the pederastic relationship like marriage was a subspecies of this friendship

The service or benefit or help or other good things the lover gave to the beloved was flattering attention and education in the proper role and behavior expected of a man, particularly an aristocrat

What the beloved gave the lover was exclusive attention and some level of physical gratification



Outrage, Shame and "Just Eros"

We learned that sexual excess, particularly homosexual was defined in terms of "outrage" and "shame"

The seduction of a citizen wife or daughter was a crime of outrage (hubris) that shamed the male responsible for her

Likewise the man who submitted to anal penetration shamed himself because he abandoned his soul to appetite, violating a communal standard of self control

He also allowed himself to be outraged by another, treated as an object for the gratification of another’s appetite and pleasure

Sexual outrage, then, was the abandonment of the soul to one’s own or another’s appetite, a loss of rational control that shamed the victim because he did not uphold his society’s most impt order — the control of passions and appetites by the mind and its social projections, law and custom



This creates an obvious contradiction of pederasty

If the boy is to reciprocate for attention, instruction and gifts, how can he do so?

If he submits to anal penetration, he has allowed himself to be outraged, and has drawn perilously close to the kinaidos

One way is self control — In one of Socrates’ conversations he supposedly said that the boy with a noble soul won’t allow himself to be kissed. But this is an extreme solution

Yet some self control is necessary — the boy who offers his beauty for money is a prostitute, whereas the boy who becomes the friend of a noble/virtuous and good man" is considered self controlled, chaste

Ideal friends according to Socrates are those who honor the same chaste behavior and who are moderate in their appetites, so that "though they delight in the sexual pleasures of blooming youths, they control themselves, so that they don’t cause pa in to those they shouldn’t’

Idealization of self control here — maybe similar to troubadour



We read a lot in the sources about "just" or "chaste" eros, and so we wonder just what they were doing under their cloaks

The most widely accepted view is that the pederastic lover had intercrural intercourse, rubbing his penis between the boy’s thighs while both were standing

This avoided the shame of penetration and avoided the charge of"outrage" while allowing the older active partner to achieve orgasm

In the idealized pederasty of the literary remains, however the answer is clear: physical consummation is taboo

The rational virtue of self control/chastity gives pederasty its power to distance itself from the chaos of eros and its mind obliterating pleasure

As such it functions as another technology , a tool for controlling nature’s force and directing it to ends beneficial for the citizen and state

Heres (http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/homosexuality/) another good article


In the Laws, Plato applies the idea of a fixed, natural law to sex, and takes a much harsher line than he does in the Symposium or the Phraedrus. In Book One he writes about how opposite-sex sex acts cause pleasure by nature, while same-sex sexuality is “unnatural” (636c). In Book Eight, the Athenian speaker considers how to have legislation banning homosexual acts, masturbation, and illegitimate procreative sex widely accepted. He then states that this law is according to nature (838-839d). Probably the best way of understanding Plato's discussion here is in the context of his overall concerns with the appetitive part of the soul and how best to control it. Plato clearly sees same-sex passions as especially strong, and hence particularly problematic, although in the Symposium that erotic attraction could be the catalyst for a life of philosophy, rather than base sensuality (Cf. Dover, 1989, 153-170; Nussbaum, 1999, esp. chapter 12).

[Hurin_Rules]

Sorry Gawain, but this guy's credibility is shattered when he proclaims:

"Another origin for homosexuality among the Greeks is located among the Dorians, who were more warlike than the Spartans, and swept through Greece toward the end of the second millennium and ultimately occupied most of the Peloponese and Crete."

The Dorians were not more warlike than the Spartans, because in fact the Spartans WERE Dorians. This is basic Greek history 101. To be ignorant of this fact does not bode well for the rest of his arguments.

His other arguments also assume Plato as normative, which he clearly was not. Plato advocated dictatorship, the prohibition of music and allowing women to serve as soldiers of his Repbulic. He himself freely admits that he was ridiculed for these ideas, which clearly were not amongst the mainstream of Greek thought. From a historiographical perspective, you clearly can't use the ideas of a man who was executed for 'corrupting the youth' as emblematic of Greek society.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

OT - The Greatest general of All time, in my opinion, was Robert E. Lee.

Maybe I'm biased because I am distantly related to him (through marraige)
-Capo

[Steppe Merc]

Many historians say that it was possible. No deffinite, but it's certaintly possible, and most historians believe he was bisexaul. Not gay, certaintly, but he did have gay lovers, as did his father, Philip. One of his ex lovers actaully killed him...

[Kaiser of Arabia]

... by giving him SYPHILIS!!!!

Actually I think thats how he died.

[Snowhobbit]

No, Alexander died from malaria, ~;) almost right Capo!

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Sorry Gawain, but this guy's credibility is shattered when he proclaims:

Another origin for homosexuality among the Greeks is located among the Dorians, who were more warlike than the Spartans, and swept through Greece toward the end of the second millennium and ultimately occupied most of the Peloponese and Crete."

The Dorians were not more warlike than the Spartans, because in fact the Spartans WERE Dorians. This is basic Greek history 101. To be ignorant of this fact does not bode well for the rest of his arguments


Taking in consideration that the Minonean and Mycenaean were the first civilizations in the Balkans, and they were of separate creed then the Albanian people, then the only possible civilization that could have existed north of Greece is the Illyrian people. There were none other that existed at that time and considering these Northern people Greek would be irrelevant, since throughout time these northern people have formed what could be considered Albanian Culture.
Most books on this topic place the Dorians as a Greek people, but it is quite impossible for these Greeks to conquer themselves. For that is what the Dorians did, they conquered what was considered at that time Ancient Greece, and how could a Greek people conquer the Greek nation. Also, the Dorians are known for having a different resemblance then the Greeks. They were known to have fairer hair and to be taller.
From this information we can calculate these facts: 1. The Dorians came from the north 2. They are different from the Greeks and 3. They conquered the Greeks in 1100 B.C. These facts, pulled completely out of literature accepted by the world pinpoints the culture and people known as Dorians to be Albanian. Every time that literature considers a people to the north of Greece, they have to be talking about the Albanian people, since no other group of people, like the Slavs, occupied the Balkans until the 7th Century A.D. The realization of this fact opens a gate of acceptance for a very eloquent Albanian history.
Even though Albanians are known to be a very brute, dark, and uncultured people, this is evidence that the Albanian people, at one time, conquered mighty Greece. The Albanian people were and continued to be very skilled worriers and leaders, and this aspect is reflected as early as the Dorians. With every conquer there also comes the heavy and long-lasting integration of culture and cultural diffusion. A mix between the Albanian and Greek so early at time leads to the possibility that the same Albanians that were known as the Dorians have become some part of the majestic Greek empire, if not diffused to become one people with Greeks. There is no record of the conquering Dorians to have left Greece, so accordingly, Albanians have some claim to the well-known achievements of the Greek Empire.
These incredible cultural and historical facts are not always associated with Albania.





Here (http://www.allempires.com/empires/spartan/spartan1.htm) is a link to the history of Sparta. Originally it was conquered by the Dorians. Now the Spartans we usually speak of didnt come about till 300 or so years after this invasion so you may say the Spartans are decendants of the Dorians as are most of the Greeks if you want to use that argument . That is unless the Spartans conquered themselves. Now this dosent bode well on your knowledge of the issue or could it just be a matter of semantics?

[Kaiser of Arabia]

No, Alexander died from malaria, ~;) almost right Capo!
I heard that no one knew how he died.

I just came to my own conclusion based off of this:
He had 350+ Concubines, from Forign lands
He slowly went insane before he died

Well, that's what I concluded. It makes more sense though, him dying of maleria (did Syphilis even exist back then?) :book:

[DemonArchangel]

but there was no sign of syphillis capo
he probably died of West Nile Virus.

[Hurin_Rules]

Here (http://www.allempires.com/empires/spartan/spartan1.htm) is a link to the history of Sparta. Originally it was conquered by the Dorians. Now the Spartans we usually speak of didnt come about till 300 or so years after this invasion so you may say the Spartans are decendants of the Dorians as are most of the Greeks if you want to use that argument . That is unless the Spartans conquered themselves. Now this dosent bode well on your knowledge of the issue or could it just be a matter of semantics?

Gawain, you've misunderstood the argument in the very website you cite. Sparta as a polticial institution arose around 850 CE. This doesn't mean that the Spartans themselves (Lacedaemonians) never existed before 850 CE. It just means the specific political configuration of the Spartan city-state is not attested to in historical documentation before 850 CE. The Spartans (Lakedaemonians) did certainly exist before this, and they certainly were Dorians (whether or not you consider Dorians Greeks or Albanians, as is asserted in the website you cite from this nationalistic crackpot who can't write a grammatically correct sentence). The fact that you've misunderstood the argument, as you suggest, clearly does not bode well for your knowledge of the issue. Time to do a bit more reading-- I would suggest peer-reviewed books rather than nationalistic Albanian websites. H. D. F. Kitto's The Greeks (Penguin, 1991) would probably be a good place to start.

~:cheers:

P.S. Not all Greeks are descended for Dorians. The Dorian invaders were particularly important in the Peloponnesus, but Achaeans and others were also important ancestors of the Greeks of the classical age.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Gawain, you've misunderstood the argument in the very website you cite. Sparta as a polticial institution arose around 850 CE. This doesn't mean that the Spartans themselves (Lacedaemonians) never existed before 850 CE. It just means the specific political configuration of the Spartan city-state is not attested to in historical documentation before 850 CE

No you misunderstand. That is exactly my argument. That spartans did exist before the Dorians invaded so they cannot be the same people as the Dorians who invaded them now could they?

The fact that you've misunderstood the argument, as you suggest, clearly does not bode well for your knowledge of the issue.


I would suggest peer-reviewed books rather than nationalistic Albanian websites.

The site I quoted above has nothing to do with Albania. In every website I check it says Sparta was conquered and colonized by the Dorians. Would you like me to give you links to a few dozen? I guess they all are as Ignorant as the author of my original post. Dam you cannot believe anything you read anymore.

[Hurin_Rules]

No you misunderstand. That is exactly my argument. That spartans did exist before the Dorians invaded so they cannot be the same people as the Dorians who invaded them now could they?

The site I quoted above has nothing to do with Albania. In every website I check it says Sparta was conquered and colonized by the Dorians. Would you like me to give you links to a few dozen? I guess they all are as Ignorant as the author of my original post. Dam you cannot believe anything you read anymore.

Gawain, Gawain... read CAREFULLY my friend. Do any of the websites talk about Sparta or the Lakedaemonians before the Dorian invasions of the 14th-12th centuries BCE? No. There was an Achaean king in the region before the Dorians but there was no 'Sparta' or 'Spartans' in the recognizable modern usage of the word. We can use the modern word 'Sparta' to describe the area if we like, but this is anachronistic. There were no 'Spartans' in Sparta before the Dorian invasions, for the Spartans themselves were Dorians. The website wants to distinguish between Greeks and Dorians. I don't really agree that you can do that (read the Iliad and Aristotle-- Aristotle notes that the 'Greeks' did not really use the words 'Greece' or 'Greeks' at the time of the Trojan war, that all you had was a collection of Achaeans and others. So there was as yet only a nascent conception of 'Greece' or 'Greeks'). But none of this really matters, because even the rabidly nationalistic Albanian admits that the settlers of Sparta were Dorians; no one seriously doubts this. Whether you call the Dorians Greeks or Albanians or Ojibwa, for that matter, doesn't matter one bit. The fact remains that the only possible ancestors of the Spartans were Dorians. This has been shown time and time again in archaeological finds that show the Dorians used different pottery and weaponry than the other peoples around them. "Doric columns', one of the distinctive architectural monuments of Greek culture, are found in Sparta only after the period of Doric migrations. The distinctive Spartan political system of 'Spartans' and subject helots did not exist until after the Dorians arrived; think about it, this type of social system had to be imposed by a conqueror. So to say that the Dorians were 'more warlike than the Spartans' displays an ignorance of the basic history of Greece.

Get it?

You seem to respond well to websites, so here's one that makes the situation crystal clear:


The mainland Achaeans absorbed the civilization of Crete by the late Bronze Age (1500 - 1200 BC). By 1400 BC they became dominant on the mainland, notably in the region around Mycenae. About this same time period the Dorians left their mountainous home in Epirus and pushed their way down to the Peloponnesus and Crete, using improved iron weapons to conquer or expel the previous inhabitants of those regions. The invading Dorians overthrew the Achaean kings and settled, principally, in the southern and eastern part of the peninsula. Sparta and Corinth became the chief Dorian cities. The Trojan War, described by Homer in the Iliad, began about, or shortly after, 1200 BC and was probably one of a series of wars waged during the 13th and 12th centuries BC. It may have been connected with these Dorian invasions, which brought the Iron Age to Greece.

http://www.unrv.com/provinces/achaea.php

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Like I said its a matter of semantics. I claimed the Spartans were the decedants pf the Dorians while you claim they are the Dorians. Did it occur to you that the author was reffering to the area we call Sparta and not the peolpe as it is used in everyother link I mentioned? They all say the Dorians conquered Sparta in 1100-1200 BC. You know like the difference between what we now call Palestinians and what the original meaning was.

[Hurin_Rules]

Like I said its a matter of semantics. I claimed the Spartans were the decedants pf the Dorians while you claim they are the Dorians. Did it occur to you that the author was reffering to the area we call Sparta and not the peolpe as it is used in everyother link I mentioned? They all say the Dorians conquered Sparta in 1100-1200 BC. You know like the difference between what we now call Palestinians and what the original meaning was.

Yes, I think you're getting at it now Gawain. But either way you slice it, the guy's original comment about Dorians and Spartans was ignorant. If we think of the Spartans as Dorians, he's just plain wrong. If we think of the Spartans as descendants of the Dorians, he's misleading. Either way, his comment was ignorant.

Please also note: if you like to think of the Spartans as 'descendants' of the Dorians, you're going to have to make the argument that a radically new society arose in the Greek Dark Ages (for which there is no documentation and therefore almost no proof. The Spartans still called themselves Dorians in the later period, as the Athenians talked about Achaeans. Homer does this as well. If you called someone a Dorian in the 5th century people would understand what you meant. So the term 'Dorian' was still being used to describe the Spartans. To say that the Spartans are not 'Dorians' would be something to which the Spartans and other peoples of the time would object. Its like saying you, Gawain, are not an American but a descendant of the Americans. It is anachronistic.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Its like saying you, Gawain, are not an American but a descendant of the Americans. It is anachronistic.

No Im a descendant of Germans actually. ~;)

[Hurin_Rules]

Haha.

Ok, fair enough. But you get my point, right?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Yes I get your point . I wasnt aware that the Spartans still considered themselves Dorians. So does this make the Ethiopians the true Jews ?

[Leet Eriksson]

Yes I get your point . I wasnt aware that the Spartans still considered themselves Dorians. So does this make the Ethiopians the true Jews ?

To be true jewish is based on race or ethnic group?

[Lazul]

Well Faisal, you can both be Jewish by race and Jewish by faith.
Same name for the race and religion.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

but there was no sign of syphillis capo
he probably died of West Nile Virus.
Well, it was a guess.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

he probably died of West Nile Virus.

See he should have stayed east of the nile ~:)

[monkian]

Wwwwwest siiiiide till I die ~:cool:

[NagatsukaShumi]

Oh dear Alexander the Great liked his men as well as his women.....how very terrible....I mean that really makes him much less of a tactician :uneasy:

Who gives a damn where the guy liked to stick his meat. Oh dear, theres a film with homosexuality in it, lets all run for our lives, the Apocolypse is here.

As for Navoros, if you think gay sex is so bad and any film that contains it requires banning, go and complain about X-Rated gay films rather than a main stream film that shows a bit of homosexuality, surely thats far more "immoral".

If all your friends are like you I'm glad I'll never find myself in the same room as you lot!

[Steppe Merc]

I meant that was how Philip died... an assasiantion by one of his ex male lovers. But I find it very funny how Greeks don't want people thinking that Alexander was gay WHEN HE WASN'T EVEN GREEK! The Greeks at that time thought Macedonians were little better than barbarians! And does it matter if he was gay or not?
And sorry Gawain, I think there is a lot of evidence for Greeks having boy lovers...
As for Alexander himself, I think that theirs enough evidence for him having relationships with both men and women. Whether or not Hephastion himself was one of his lovers is just speculation, I'll admit. But why would anyone lie about Alexander and many other Greeks for that matter having male lovers? To descedit them? From what I understand, EVERYONE wanted to be like Alexander, including the Romans. And I think it's very telling to show that they would have no problem with him having male lovers, while so many people today are in a tizzy. Talk about going backwards...
But I think the main reason why Stone put him as having Hephestion is to characterize both his vices and virtues. Alexander was both a genius and insane, and I think showing him as bisexual which he possibly was is another way of showing his contrasting parts of his personality.

[PanzerJaeger]

If all your friends are like you I'm glad I'll never find myself in the same room as you lot!

Im sure the feeling's mutual. ~;)

[Gawain of Orkeny]

And sorry Gawain, I think there is a lot of evidence for Greeks having boy lovers...

But not the way we speak of it today. The greeks also thought that an adult male who allowed himself to be penetrated was messed up. Ive also heard they really prefered to just hump the boys between their thighs.

[Slyspy]

You see the point that hellenes and those Greek don't seem to understand is that if Alexander was bisexual it doesn't make him less of a general. It doesn't make him a less significant historical figure. He can still be a Greek hero despite being Macedonian, so why not if he was also bisexual. Neither does it make people think that all modern Greeks are "sissies". Besides which so what if it does? You know better right? The direct evidence is slim, but the contextual and circumstancial evidence, if strong enough to be the mainstream in historical academia, is certainly strong enough to be used in a Hollywood movie. At least they haven't declared Alexander to be American!

For those offended on moral grounds by the representation of a homosexual relationship in the movie I would say this: The director has said that the only sexual scene is male/female and that a male/male relationship is merely suggested. Perhaps your outrage should be directed at the movie's main theme, which is the life of a man killed thousands while laying waste to nations and cities across South Eastern Europe and the Middle East. Unless this is currently fashionable? I suggest you keep your twisted, disproportionate sense of morality, even moral superiority, to yourselves.

[Slyspy]

But not the way we speak of it today. The greeks also thought that an adult male who allowed himself to be penetrated was messed up. Ive also heard they really prefered to just hump the boys between their thighs.

That is true enough.

[mercian billman]

But not the way we speak of it today. The greeks also thought that an adult male who allowed himself to be penetrated was messed up. Ive also heard they really prefered to just hump the boys between their thighs.

This is true, if the guys from Queer Eye For The Straight Guy time traveled to Ancient Greece they would've got their asses kicked.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Im watching becoming Alexander as I write this. Its pretty impressive what the actors went through getting ready to make this film. Looks like the battles will be very realistic. Anyone else see this program yet?

[hellenes]

While i understand how many people fell victims of the SLAVIC cheap propaganda and the intelligence of a president recognizing a state under a STOLEN name and the propaganda that pushes forward a perversed INTERPRETATION of ancient greek writers
I WILL ALWAYS BE THERE TO CHALLENGE AND DO MY BEST TO DROP A SMALL PORTION OF LIGHT IN THE DARKNESS OF IGNORANCE...

Hellenes

[Sasaki Kojiro]

I agree hellenes. Propaganda is terrible and should be stopped. If we promote propaganda all we end up with is people using big fonts in all caps and not providing any evidence.

[hellenes]

I agree hellenes. Propaganda is terrible and should be stopped. If we promote propaganda all we end up with is people using big fonts in all caps and not providing any evidence.

Evidence?
Get it:

• Were the ancient Macedonians Greek?
There is no doupt that ancient Macedonians were Greek. It is thoroughly proved by historic documents and archaeological discoveries which can be found in history books and museums in Greece and arround the world. The most important archeological discovery in Macedonia is the tomb of King Philippos II. It was excavated in Vergina, Greece in 1978 and it proves beyond any doubt the Greekness of ancient Macedonia. All the findings are characteristic of the Greek culture and all the inscriptions are written using the Greek language. Among the discoveries of this tomb is the "Vergina sun" the symbol that FYROM attempted to use on its flag initially.

Facts which prove that ancient Macedonians were Greek people:

• Macedonians spoke a dialect of the Greek language
All the monuments and inscriptions found in the Macedonia are written using the Greek language. Take a look at the archaeological discoveries. There is no historic evidence to suggest that the Macedonians were using a different language.

• Macedonians had Greek names
All the ancient Macedonian names mentioned in history or found on tombs are Greek. All the kings of Ancient Macedonia had Greek names. Nobody discovered ancient Macedonian names ending to -ov or -ovski or whatever.

Alexander's name is Greek. The word "Alexandros" is produced from the prefix alex(=protector) and the word andros(=man) meaning "he who protects men". The prefix "alex" can be found in many Greek words today (alexiptoto=parachute, alexisfairo=bulletproof - all these words have the meaning of protetion).

Philip's name is also Greek. It is produced from the prefix Philo(=friendly to something) and the word ippos(=horse) meaning the man who is friendly to horses. The prefix "philo" and the word "ippos" are also found in many words of Greek origin today (philosophy,philology, hippodrome,hippocampus).
A detailed list of ancient Macedonian names can be found here. http://truth.macedonia.gr/names.html

• The regions of ancient Macedonia had Greek names.
The regions which formed ancient Macedonia had Greek names. Most of these names are used in Greece even today. You can see a list of the regions of ancient Macedonia here. http://truth.macedonia.gr/regions.html


• Macedonian architecture was similar to the Greek architecture.
All the buldings found in the Macedonia region have many common characteristics with the ones found in the rest of Greece. Palaces, temples, theaters markets are characteristic sampes of ancient Greek architecture.

• Macedonians fought together with the rest of the Greeks.
Macedonians always fought along with the other Greek city-states against enemies from Asia.

• Macedonians took part in the Olympic games.
It is well known then ONLY Greeks were allowed to take part in the ancient Olympic games. For a list of Macedonians who participated in the Olympic Games click here.
http://truth.macedonia.gr/olympics.html

• Macedonians celebrated the same festivals as the rest of the Greeks.
Examples of festivals which were celebrated in Macedonia as well as in other Greek states are the "Hetaireidia", the "Apellaia" and many more.

• Macedonians worshiped the same Gods as the rest of the Greeks.
Several temples dedicated to the Greek Gods have beem discovered in Macedonia and especially in Dion the religious center of ancient Macedonians. It is obvious that the Macedonias worshiped the 12 Olympian Gods as the rest of the Greeks. The Gods were "living" on Mount Olympos which happens to be located in Macedonia. How would that be possible if there was hostility between Macedonians and Greeks? This is another proof that Macedonia was considered a part of Greece

What the ancient historians say:

On the origin of the Macedonians

The Greek origin of the Macedonians is proven by the vast majority of the ancient historians.
Diodoros of Sicily talks about the links of Alexander to the Greek mythology (Diodoros, Historical Library 17.1.5):


"On his father's side Alexander was a descendant of Heracles and on his mother's he could claim the blood of the Aeacids, so that from his ancestors on both sides he inherited the physical and moral qualities of greatness."
Herodotus confirms that the Macedonians were people of Greek origin (Histories of Herodotus Book 5, paragraph 22.1)


"Now that these descendants of Perdiccas are Greeks, as they themselves say, I myself chance to know and will prove it in the later part of my history.That they are so has been already adjudged by those who manage the Pan-Hellenic contest at Olympia. "
And later on (Book 8, paragraph 137.1) he verifies it:


"This Alexander was seventh in descent from Perdiccas, who got for himself the tyranny of Macedonia in the way that I will show. Three brothers of the lineage of Temenus came as banished men from Argos to Illyria, Gauanes and Aeropus and Perdiccas; and from Illyria they crossed over into the highlands of Macedonia till they came to the town Lebaea."
Also in the very first book of his "Histories" (paragraph 56.3 ) Herodotus states about the origin of the the Greek people :


"For in the days of king Deucalion it inhabited the land of Phthia, then the country called Histiaean, under Ossa and Olympus, in the time of Dorus son of Hellen; driven from this Histiaean country by the Cadmeans, it settled about Pindus in the territory called Macedonian; from there again it migrated to Dryopia, and at last came from Dryopia into the Peloponnese, where it took the name of Dorian."
Thoukididis also verifies that the Macedonian kings' origin was from the Greek town of Argos (Book 2, 99.3):


"The country on the sea coast, now called Macedonia, was first acquired by Alexander, the father of Perdiccas, and his ancestors, originally Temenids from Argos."
Aristotelis, the teacher of Alexander the Great says about the rivers in Macedonia (Meteorologika, Book I, Par. 13):


"Of the rivers in the Greek world, the Achelous flows from Pindus, the Inachus from the same mountain; the Strymon, the Nestus, and the Hebrus all three from Scombrus; many rivers, too, flow from Rhodope."
Finally Isocratis states (To Philip, paragraph 32):


"Argos is the land of your fathers, and is entitled to as much consideration at your hands as are your own ancestors;"



On the language of the Macedonians

The Macedonians spoke the Greek language as the ancient authors verify. The Roman writer Titus Livius says : (from "The Foundation of the City", Paragraph 31)


"The Aitolians, the Akarnanians, the Macedonians, men of the same language, are united or disunited by trivial causes that arise from time to time; with aliens, with barbarians, all Greeks wage and will wage eternal war; for they are enemies by the will of nature, which is eternal, and not from reasons that change from day to day."
Didorus of Sicily (17.67.1) says:


"After this Alexander left Dareius's mother, his daughters, and his son in Susa, providing them with persons to teach them the Greek language, and marching on with his army on the fourth day reached the Tigris River. "



On the religion of the Macedonians

The Macedonians had the same religion as the rest of the Greeks, they worshiped the twelve Olympian Gods.

Two quotes from Plutarch's "Alexander"


"Philip, after this vision, sent Chaeron of Megalopolis to consult the oracle of Apollo at Delphi, by which he was commanded to perform sacrifice, and henceforth pay particular honour, above all other gods, to Zeus;"

"He [Alexander he Great] erected altars, also, to the gods, which the kings of the Praesians even in our time do honour to when they pass the river, and offer sacrifice upon them after the Greek manner."
Diodoros of Sicily also makes clear that the Macedonnians worshiped the twelve Greek Gods:

Histories, Chapter 16, 95.2


"Along with lavish display of every sort, Philip included in the procession statues of the twelve Gods brought with great artistry and adorned with a dazzling show of wealth to strike awe to the beholder, and along with these was conducted a thirteenth statue, suitable for a god, that of Philip himself, so that the king exhibited himself enthroned among the twelve Gods."
Histories, Chapter 16, 91.5-6


"He (King Philip) wanted as many Greeks as possible to take part in the festivities in honour of the gods, and so planned brilliant musical contests and lavish banquets for his friends and guests. Out of all Greece he summoned his personal guest-friends and ordered the members of his court to bring along as many as they could of their acquaintances from abroad."



On the culture of the Macedonians


"Alexandros observed that his soldiers were exhausted with their constant campaigns. ... The hooves of the horses had been worn thin by steady marching. The arms and armour were wearing out, and the Hellenic clothing was quite gone. They had to clothe themselves in materials of the barbarians,..."
(Diodoros of Sicily 17.94.1-2)



On the geography of Macedonian

The great philosopher Aristotelis (Aristotle) considers the rivers in Macedonias as "rivers in the Greek world"


"Of the rivers in the Greek world, the Achelous flows from Pindus, the Inachus from the same mountain; the Strymon, the Nestus, and the Hebrus all three from Scombrus; many rivers, too, flow from Rhodope. ..."
(Aristotelis, Meteorology, Book 1, Par. 13)
and later on he says:


"The deluge in the time of Deucalion, for instance, took place chiefly in the Greek world and in it especially about ancient Hellas, the country about Dodona and the Achelous, a river which has often changed its course. Here the Selli dwelt and those who were formerly called Graeci and now Hellenes..."
(Aristotelis, Meteorology, Book 1, Par. 13)



What did the Macedonians think of themselves?

It is very clear from the surviving ancient sources that the Macedonians considered themselves to be Greeks.

In Herodotus (Book 9, paragraph 45.2) Alexander I , king of Macedonia says:


"... I myself am by ancient descent a Greek, and I would not willingly see Hellas change her freedom for slavery ..."
Alexander III (the Great) talking to the king of the Persians says: (Arrian, Anabasis of Alexander II,14,4)


"Your ancestors invaded Macedonia and the rest of Greece and did us great harm, though we had done them no prior injury [...] I have been appointed hegemon of the Greeks [...] "
Arrian ("Alexander the Great" 1,16,7) describes the following incident: After winning an important battle in Asia ...
"He [Alexander the Great] sent to Athens three hundred Persian panoplies to be set up to Athena in the acropolis; he ordered this inscription to be attached: Alexander son of Philip and the Hellenes, except the Lacedaemonians, set up these spoils from the barbarians dwelling in Asia"
(Diodoros of Sicily 16.93.1)
"Every seat in the theater was taken when Philip appeared wearing a white cloak and by his express orders his bodyguard held away from him and followed only at a distance, since he wanted to show publicly that he was protected by the goodwill of all the Hellenes, and had no need of a guard of spearmen."

And from Flavious Josephus (11.8.5) we have the following incident where Alexander clearly considers himself a Greek:


"And when the book of Daniel was showed to him (Alexander the Great) wherein Daniel declared that one of the Greeks should destroy the empire of the Persians, he supposed that himself was the person intended"



What did the rest of the Greeks think?

The ancient Greek people alwayws considered the Macedonians to be Greek as well. This can be easily proved because the Macedonians were members of all the Greek institutions, such as the Delphic amphictiony:

Pausanias writes in his book "Description of Greece" (10.3.3):

"The Phocians were deprived of their share in the Delphic sanctuary and in the Greek assembly, and their votes were given by the Amphictyons to the Macedonians."
and also in his book "Phokis" (8,2 & 4):
"They say that these were the tribes collected by Amphiktyon himself in the Hellenic Assembly: [...] the Macedonians joined and the entire Phocian race [...] In my day there were thirty members: six from each of Nikopolis, Macedonia and Thessaly [...] "
Aeschines (On the Embassy 2.32) gives evidence of the Macedonian king Amyntas taking part at the congress of the Lacedaemonian allies and the other Greeks:

"For at a congress of the Lacedaemonian allies and the other Greeks, in which Amyntas, the father of Philip, being entitled to a seat, was represented by a delegate whose vote was absolutely under his control, he joined the other Greeks in voting to help Athens to recover possession of Amphipolis. As proof of this I presented from the public records the resolution of the Greek congress and the names of those who voted".
Isocratis, one of the most impotant orators of ancient Greece says in his speach "To Philip" addressed to King Philip II of Macedonia (Paragaraph 127):


"Therefore, since the others are so lacking in spirit, I think it is opportune for you to head the war against the King; and, while it is only natural for the other descendants of Heracles, and for men who are under the bonds of their polities and laws, to cleave fondly to that state in which they happen to dwell, it is your privilege, as one who has been blessed with untrammeled freedom, to consider all Greece your fatherland, as did the founder of your race, and to be as ready to brave perils for her sake as for the things about which you are personally most concerned."
The Sicilian historian Diodoros says in his history about King Philip of Macedonia (Diodoros, Historical Library 16.95.1-2)
"Such was the end of Philip, who had made himself the greatest of the kings in Europe in his time, and because of the extent of his kingdom had made himself a throned companion of the twelve gods. He had ruled twenty-four years. He is known to fame as one who with but the slenderest resources to support his claim to a throne won for himself the greatest empire in the Greek world, while the growth of his position was not due so much to his prowess in arms as to his adroitness and cordiality in diplomacy.
Even the Persians considerd Macedonia a part of Greece! The Persian king Mardonius says : (From the Histories of Herodotus Book 7, Paragraph 9.1-2).


"We know the manner of their battle- we know how weak their power is; already have we subdued their children who dwell in our country, the Ionians, Aeolians, and Dorians. I myself have had experience of these men when I marched against them by the orders of thy father; and though I went as far as Macedonia, and came but a little short of reaching Athens itself, yet not a soul ventured to come out against me to battle. [...] Yet the Greeks are accustomed to wage wars, as I learn, and they do it most senselessly in their wrongheadedness and folly [...]. Since they speak the same language, they should end their disputes by means of heralds or messengers, or by any way rather than fighting; if they must make war upon each other, they should each discover where they are in the strongest position and make the attempt there. The Greek custom, then, is not good; and when I marched as far as the land of Macedonia, it had not come into their minds to fight."
Mardonius marched against the Greeks and he "went as far as Macedonia, and came but a little short of reaching Athens itself". Obviously he considers Macedonia a part of Greece!

What the SLAVS say:

• Distortion of the ancient history
The Slavic propaganda is often based on quotes from ancient historians (mainly Greek) who seem to suggest that Macedonia was a different nation. However:


These quotes usualy consist of one or two isolated lines which is misleading. Reading the whole document the meaning is completely different.
The translation is not accurate or some words have been carefully altered to change the meaning.

In this page we will present a number of "mis-interpreted" ancient quotes to prove how the Slavs exploit the ancient sources to dispute the Greek identity of the ancient Macedonians.




Argument: "Herodotus (7.130) speaks of the Thessalians as the first Greeks to come under Persian submission (although the Persians entered Macedonia first), and here using his own words, he clearly exclude the Macedonians from the Greeks. We are therefore, left with the conclusion that Herodotus did not consider the Macedonians as Greeks."

Answer:
The text is wrongly translated. What Herodotus actually says in 7.130.3 is:
“This he said with regard in particular to the sons of Aleues, the Thessalians who were the first Greeks to surrender themselves to the king. Xerxes supposed that when they offered him friendship they spoke for the whole of their nation….”

The Thessalians were the first Greeks to surrender to the Persians NOT to come under Persian submission. This does not exclude the Macedonians from the Greeks as the Macedonians did not surrender to the Persians.

This is what the original Greek document says:

“oti protoi Hellenwn eontes Thessaloi edosan euoutous basilei” (= the first of the Greeks who gave up themselves to the king.)





Argument:"Dimosthenis said that the Macedonians were not Greek"

Answer:
This argument refers to the following quote from the Athenian statesman Dimosthenis (Dimosthenis, Third Philippic, 31)


"... not only no Greek, nor related to the Greeks, but not even a barbarian from any place that can be named with honors, but a pestilent knave from Macedonia, whence it was never yet possible to buy a decent slave"
This quote appears to accuse king Philippos of Macedonia as a non-Greek. However the majority of today's historians ascribe these claims to the political differences between Dimosthenis and King Philippos. It is well known that Dimosthenis as a passionate supporter of the Athenian democracy was very concerned about the rise of the Macedonan kingdom.

"Demosthenes' allegations were lent an appearance of credibility by the fact apparent to every observer, that the lifestyle of the Macedonians was different from that of a Greek city state. This alien way of life was however, common to the western Greeks in Epeiros, Akarnania and Aitolia, as well as to the Macedonians, and their fundenmental Greek nationality was never doubted. Only as a consequencce of the political disagreement with Macedonia was the question ever raised at all."
[Proffesor M.Errington, "A History of Macedonia", University of California Press, Los Angeles, 1990]

"The speeches of Demosthenes, that deal with Philip as the enemy,should not be interpreted as an indication of the barbarian origins of Macedonians, but as an expression of conflict between two different political systems: the democratic system of the city-state (e.g.Athens) versus the monarchy (Kingdom of Macedonia). Personally, I believe that it is the common language, which gives one the opportunity to share a common civilization. Thus the language is the main factor that forms a national identity."
[Proffesor Nicholas Hammond, "Macedonian Echo" magazine, February 1993]

Also note that the quote does not suggest that the "Macedonians were not Greek" as the Slavs themselves wrongly assert, it only refers to king Philippos.






Argument:"The Philotas trial - Alexander urges Philotas to speak in his native Macedonian language"

Answer:
Another argument they frequently use to prove that the Maceonian were speaking a different language is the so called 'Philotas incident' described by the Roman historian Quintus Curtius Rufus in the "The History of Alexander"

Alexander the Great speaks in front of the Macedones of his army: "The Macedonians are going to judge your case," he said. "Please state whether you will use your native language before them."
Philotas: "Besides the Macedonians, there are many present who, I think, will find what I am going to say easier to understand if I use the language you yourself have been using, your purpose, I believe, being only to enable more people to understand you."
Then the king said: "Do you see how offensive Philotas find even his native language? He alone feels an aversion to learning it. But let him speak as he pleases - only remember he as contemptuous of our way of life as he is of our language".
The Slavic propaganda claims that when Philotas started to speak in Greek Alexander asked him to use his "native Macedonian language". Even if we assume that this episode took place exactly like this, it is still very unclear. Curtius does not make any reference to any specific language. He doesn't refer to a "Macedonian language" at all. This is only an assumption made by the Slavs. There is absolutely no evidence to support this assumption - that Philotas' native language was the "Macedonian language" .
It would be more logical to suggest that Philotas started to speak in Persian (since they were in Persia and it would enable more people to understand... ) and Alexander asked him to speak in Greek - his native language.





Argument:"The ancient historians refer to the Macedonian language as a separate language from the Greek"

Answer: This is typical example of ignorance about the Greek history. In fact there is no ancient document refering explicity to a "Macedonian language". All the ancient documents they quote referring to the "Macedonian language" use the term "Makedonisti" which of course does not mean a different language. It refers to the form of the Greek langauge spoken in Macedonia. Similarly there are ancient documents referring to the Greek dialect of Athens as "Attikisti" or the Greek dialect of Peloponisos as "Peloponisti" etc. Should we assume that there was an Athenian language from that, or that the Athenians were not Greek?






Argument:"Not only that the Macedonians did not worshiped the Greek gods, but also there is not a single temple discovered on the territory of Macedonia which resembles the temples in Greece."

Answer:
Here we have two lies in one sentence!

1. The Macedonians did worship the Greek Gods and there are numerous quotes from the ancient historians which clearly prove that. On the other hand there is absolutely no historical evidence to support that the Macedonians worshiped different Gods than the rest of the Greeks.

2. Several temples in Maceonia were dedicated to the Greek Gods. Here are a few examples:

The temple of Afrodite in Dion
The temple of Eukleia in Vergina
The temple of Zeus in Dodoni




Argument:"The Macedonians did not take part in the Peloponesean war, therefore they were not Greek"

Answer:
The Peloponesean war was a war between two sides Athens and Sparti. A few of their allies took part as well but the vast majority of the Greek states did not participate. The fact that the Macedonians were absent from the Peloponesean war can not be used as an argument against the Greek identity of Macedonia.




Argument:"Pausanias (1.1.3) talks about a war between Greeks and Macedonians: 'Leosthenes at the head of the Athenians and the united Greeks defeated the Macedonians in Boeotia and again outside Thermopylae forced them into Lamia' "

Answer:
This is one of the most audacious attempts by the Slavs to twist the Greek history. A war between two ancient Greek states was a very common phenomenon and it certainly did NOT mean that one of the states was not Greek. The war between Athens and Sparti (known as the Peloponesean war) which lasted for 27 years is well known. Should we assume that either the Athenians or the Spartans were not Greek because tey fought agaist each other?

More examles of wars betwwen the Greek states:



395-386 bc : the Corinthian War: Corinth, Boeotia, Argos and Athens backed by Persia against Sparta.

369 bc : Second invasion of the Peloponnese by Thebes under Epaminondas.

364 bc : Battle of Cynoscephalae. Thebes destroyed Orchomenus.

362 bc : The battle of Mantinea. Thebes under Epaminondas defeated a force of Spartans, Athenians and Mantineans.

356-346 bc : Phocis seized Delphi and provoked the Third Sacred War (Phocis against Thebes, Locris and Thessaly).

It is obvious that a war between the ancient Greek states was a very common phenomenon so a battle between Macedon and Athens can not be used as proof that the Macedonians were not Greek.


Simple answers to frequently used Slavic arguments
In this section we will attempt to answer a series of arguments used frequently to question the Greek identity of Macedonia.

"Greece officially denied the use of the name Macedonia after the Balkan wars."
This is a very inaccurate argument. There are several examples of state institutions and private businesses using the name Macedonia which operate in Greece since the early 1900s. These are just a few of them:

The "Macedonia" newspaper (1912)
The Society for Macedonian Studies (1939) [web site]
The museum of ancient Macedonia (1961) [web site]
The museum of the Macedonian struggle (1979) [web site]
Greece has been actively using the name Macedonia since its liberation from the Ottoman empire. If Greece's official position was to "deny the existence of Macedonia" how would it be possible for hundreds of private companies to be named after Macedonia?

"Greece has changed the "Macedonian" names of locations in the Macedonia region."
The Greek names are older than the Slavic ones and most of them have their roots in ancient Greece. The Greek names of the towns in Macedonia are also mentioned in the Bible. A characteristic example is Thessaloniki. This city was founded in 315 bc by the Macedonian king Kasssandros and it was named after Alexanders' half sister - Thessaloniki. How could the Greeks change the name from Solun (as the Slavs claim) to Thessaloniki in 1912 if that was the original name? The name Thessaloniki is even mentioned in the bible by St Paul. Why did he address his letters (epistoles) to the people of Thessaloniki and not the to the people of Solun?
What about the Greek names of towns inside FYROM used during the Ottoman times? Did Greece change them as well?

"Today's 'Greeks' and ancient 'Hellenes have no relation between them."
How is it possible for the people who live in the same region, speak the same language and have the same names and culture not to be descendants of the ancient inhabitants of the region? Similarly we could say that today's Egyptians are not descendants of ancient Egyptians and today's Chinese people are not descedants of ancient Chinese.
The name 'Greek' is in fact ancient as well as the famous philosopher Aristotelis verifies:
"...and she was not there forever, but after the cataclysm of Defkalion, which occurred in the Hellenic area, in fact, in the ancient Hellas, which was around Dodoni, and it changed many times the flow of Acheloos river. In that area live the Selloi and the ones that were once called Graecoi and are now called Hellenes..." [Aristotelis Meteorologika, I, 14]

"There is a large Macedonian minority in Greece"
There is no "Macedonian minority" in Greece because there is no such nationality. There is a small group of people who speak a Slavic dialect which is in fact different from what is claimed to be the "Macedonian language" These people are not a "Macedonian minority" as they consider themselves Greeks. There is also an even smaller group of Slav propagandists who are trying to create a Macedonian minority in Greece. Anyone who didn't consider him/herself Greek could and should have left Greece during the exchange of populations in 1919.

"One million people in Greece consider themselves Macedonians"
In the 1996 parliament elections in Greece the political party of the people who claim to be a "Macedonian minority" gained 3.485 votes (official result). In the 2000 parliament elections they didn't take up part at all. Of course there is no doubt of the integrity of the election procedures since Greece is a member of the European Union. If there was such a large number of "Macedonians" in Greece (1/10th) wouldn't be easy for them to stand up against the "Greek occupation"?

"Greece acquired illegally Aegean Macedonia in 1913"
Greece acquired 51% of Macedonia in 1913 as a result of the treaty of Bucharest. International treaties are not illegal. Furthermore Greece in 1913 was not a powerful country to acquire any land it desired. This land was "given" to Greece because it historically belonged to Greece and its residents were Greek.

"What gives Greece the right to name another country? This issue is straightforward, every country has the right to call itself whatever it wishes."
This is a misleading statement. The author knows very well why Greece is objecting to the use of the name Macedonia. In fact every country has the right to chose its own name as far as it does not belong to another country's history. The name Macedonia belongs to the Greek history. Greece has the right to protect its history and heritage.

"Saints Cyril and Methdje (or Kirl and Metodi) were not Greeks but Macedonians."
Saints Cyrilos and Methodios were Greeks born in Thessaloniki and this is well known to all Christians. Pope John Paul the B' in an official apostolic homily to the entire Catholic Church proclaimed that Methodius and Cyril "Greek brethren born in Thessaloniki" are consecrated as "heavenly protectors of Europe". John Paul B' repeated this statement in a speech delivered in the church of Saint Clements, in Rome. You can see the original document here.
http://zeus.hri.org/Martis/contents/doc19.html

"Greece stole the Macedonian history"
Greece does not 'steal' history. It has its own lengthy and respected history. It is the only thing that Greece has plenty of it. The Greek history and culture is respected by all the countries in the world. People who don't have their own history need to 'steal' someone else's...

"Linguistic science has at its disposal a very limited quantity of Macedonian words. A very limited quantity in this case is a quantity indeed, that Greeks cannot ignore."
This argument proves the Greek point that the "Macedonian language" was a Greek a dialect. There only exists "a limited quantity of Macedonian words" because the Macedonian dialect had "limited" differences from the Greek language.
How could it be possible for a separate "ancient Macedonian language" to disappeared after what Alexander had achieved?

"If Philip united and not conquered the Greeks why did Alexander leave 25.000 men of his army in Macedonia when he is about to face the strongest and most numerous army in the world?"
No sensible leader would go on a quest taking ALL his army with him and leaving his homeland unprotected!
And of course he did not leave 25.000 men in Macedonia because he was afraid of the other Greeks. Macedonia had lots of real enemies at its northern border (Illyrians, Dardanians,Paionians etc).

"If Macedonians were Greek then why only 30% of Alexander's army were Greek?"
The right question to ask is 'why as many as 30% of Alexander's army were from the rest of Greece?' After all Macedonians and Greeks were supposed to be enemies! The Macedonians 'conquered' the Greeks according to the Slavic version of the Macedonian history. The fact that a very significant part of Alexander's army were non-Macedonian Greeks shows the truth.

"Ancient Macedonians did not take part in the Olympic Games"
This is another false statement. It can be easily proved that people from Macedonia took part in the Olympic Games. For a list Macedonians who won the Olympic Games the click here. http://truth.macedonia.gr/olympics.html

"Ancient Macedonians fought against Greece."
This is another misleading statement. It is well known that the ancient Greek states were largely independed of each other and that often led to wars between them. Some well-known examples are the Peolloponisian was between Athens and Sparti, the Athenians quest in the island of Mitilini, the brutal war between Sparti and Thebes and many more. A war between two ancient Greek regions did not mean that one of them was not Greek.

"There are no ancient monuments written in the Macedonian language because Greek archaeologists destroy them when they are recovered."
Even if we accept that this is true it still doesn't explain why aren't there any monuments in the rest of Macedonia!
What about the ancient monuments in FYROM and Bulgaria?
What about the ancient monuments on Alexander's route in Asia?
Why aren't there any "non Greek Macedonian monuments" ?
Oh, I know why! The Greek archaeologists must have destroyed them as well !!!

"If in fact, "Macedonia is Greece", how come they feel the need to emphasize, to shout, and to proclaim over and over again? After all, we never hear them proclaiming that 'Thebes is Greece', or 'Sparta is Greece' ".
If the Salvs wanted to name heir country "Republic of Thebes" or "Republic of Sparta" who would shout out "Thebes and Sparta are Greek". But they are claiming to be Macedonians so we shout that
"MACEDONIA WAS GREEK"
"MACEDONIA IS GREEK"
"MACEDONIA WILL BE FOREVER GREEK"

The link: http://www.google.com.gr/search?q=cache:L-bj-McWCDsJ:truth.macedonia.gr/index00.html+macedonia+is+greek&hl=el

Hellenes

[ShadesPanther]

You forgot to add the links ~;)

Well wrote though. There has been a bit of controversy regarding the "Greekness" of the Macedonians. But as Hellenes has pointed out that as there is no real evidence stating otherwise they must be Greek or very close to being Greek (The barbarians at the borders might influence them slightly).

[Lazul]

Ive had the same discusson in another forum and so on.

I dont think the problem is if he was gay or not... the problem is that anyone accualy cares if he was gay or not!
Are you a lesser man if your gay? NO
Now, I got a rather odd response from some nutjob over a chat, that I was a "homosexualy decendant of barbaric gay vikings" or something like that, just couse I said that there is a possebility that Alexander was Bisexual.
Kina funny really as the Vikings where some of the most Homophobic people to ever exist, more or less hated all that was weak and female etc etc.

Ah, well, what I wanted to say is that It doesnt matter if he was gay or not. Now if you have any problem with the fact that one of the greatest commanders ever might have been gay and that oliver stone thinks so, then I think that says alot more about you then about Oliver Stone and other that agree with him. :bow:

[Gawain of Orkeny]

I dont think the problem is if he was gay or not... the problem is that anyone accualy cares if he was gay or not!

Apparenty Oliver Stone cares. My problem is not whether he was gay but how its portrayed. As I said the Greeks didnt practice homosexuality as we think of it today. I dont think they went around making out and kissing eachother all the time if ever. I dont think they were anymore homosexual than a teen who experiments with gay sex. Just because they had sex with someone of the same gender dosnt make them homosexual as many of you have said before. Also sex between adult males was certainly frowned upon. I think to many people use our preception of homosexuality when speaking of the Greeks.

[hellenes]

Ive had the same discusson in another forum and so on.

I dont think the problem is if he was gay or not... the problem is that anyone accualy cares if he was gay or not!
Are you a lesser man if your gay? NO
Now, I got a rather odd response from some nutjob over a chat, that I was a "homosexualy decendant of barbaric gay vikings" or something like that, just couse I said that there is a possebility that Alexander was Bisexual.
Kina funny really as the Vikings where some of the most Homophobic people to ever exist, more or less hated all that was weak and female etc etc.

Ah, well, what I wanted to say is that It doesnt matter if he was gay or not. Now if you have any problem with the fact that one of the greatest commanders ever might have been gay and that oliver stone thinks so, then I think that says alot more about you then about Oliver Stone and other that agree with him. :bow:

Thirst i dont care about what Oliver Stone thinks...
I dont care about if Churchill was gay or Ghengis Chan was gay cause they dont have to do anything with me....
BUT when I know that the TRUTH based on SOLID credible facts is that ALexander was NOT bisexual and some big bucks Bush voter (sais enough) comes with a movie based on HIS OWN childlife who wants to rise his selfesteem by making himself equal to the GREATEST GENERAL-KING then i DO CARE...
If Oliver and his transsexual finanse supporter made this movie for their private pleasure i wouldnt be bothered with it...But when they show it to Millions of people around the world that makes me feel shame for the weakness of the Greek state...
Lets see do we have evidence that George Washington was bisexual? No?
Who cares!!! Lets make a movie about his lover a young British soldier!!!
Outraged?
There is no evidence that Alexander was bisexual too...

Hellenes

[Steppe Merc]

I disagree that all the Macedonians were Greek. From what I undestand, it was mix between Greeks, Thracians and Illyrians... which is why they had such awesome military potential.
And Hellenenes, I still believe that Alexander had male lovers, based on facts presented towards me. I guess we will never know... but one thing I do know. It doesn't matter to me, and I think he was a genius eitherway.
But do you know about Philip? I heard that he had many male (though not as many as his female) lovers, and one of them assasinated him. Just wondering...

[hellenes]

I disagree that all the Macedonians were Greek. From what I undestand, it was mix between Greeks, Thracians and Illyrians... which is why they had such awesome military potential.
And Hellenenes, I still believe that Alexander had male lovers, based on facts presented towards me. I guess we will never know... but one thing I do know. It doesn't matter to me, and I think he was a genius eitherway.
But do you know about Philip? I heard that he had many male (though not as many as his female) lovers, and one of them assasinated him. Just wondering...

When i say something people cry EVIDENCE when i provide evidence people reply without providing any...
Steppe Merc
I havent heard your opinion about my Washington example...

Hellenes

[Xiahou]

Im watching becoming Alexander as I write this. Its pretty impressive what the actors went through getting ready to make this film. Looks like the battles will be very realistic. Anyone else see this program yet?
Viewer comments from the IMDB (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0346491/usercomments) seem to contradict this. Apparently, in over 3 hours only two battles are covered and mainly in 'shaking camera what the hell is going on?' vision. ~;) Honestly, at the risk of saying 'told ya so' I think it looks like this movie really stinks.

According to RottenTomatoes.com (http://www.rottentomatoes.com) its being panned by almost all of the critics as well.

[nokhor]

hellenes, i'm curious. you believe that alexander was not bisexual.

but what is your viewpoint regarding phillip the second and pausanias I and pausanias II episode? do you also think phillip was not bisexual?

what about alcibiades trying to sleep with socrates?

what about the belief about the prevalence of man-boy sex in ancient greece?

what about pelopidas and the sacred band of thebes?


do you think all of that is propaganda and ancient greek culture was not bisexual at all? or do you believe it was and just alexander in particular was not?

[hellenes]

hellenes, i'm curious. you believe that alexander was not bisexual.

but what is your viewpoint regarding phillip the second and pausanias I and pausanias II episode? do you also think phillip was not bisexual?

what about alcibiades trying to sleep with socrates?

what about the belief about the prevalence of man-boy sex in ancient greece?

what about pelopidas and the sacred band of thebes?


do you think all of that is propaganda and ancient greek culture was not bisexual at all? or do you believe it was and just alexander in particular was not?

I believe that there was an accidental OR on purpose MISINTERPRETATION of ancient greek scripts and that there was homosexuality NOT above the extent that is today...
In ancient athens the homosexual: KINAIDOS had NO political rights and homosexuals were STONED to death in Sparta...
Again Alkiviadis proposed to Socrates to HOST him in his house now if you have a guest i dont think that you will only think how to penetrate him... ~D
Any sources should be used with great scepticism and RESPONSIBILITY things that are not virtues in Hollywood...
And as i said before one should not judge others based upon oneself...

Hellenes

[Hurin_Rules]

But what about the Sacred Band?

These seem to indicate a much higher tolerance for sexual acts between men than you are allowing for Hellenes.

How about the stories about older men having 'thigh sex' with younger boys? Where is this coming from? I doubt scholars are just making this up.

[nokhor]

hellenes,
thanks for your reply. do you think the misrepresentation was done for political purposes? when? by whom? and why?

do you think the misrepresentation was started in antiquity? or is it a by product of more modern times, say post-breakup of the ottoman empire?

[Steppe Merc]

I'm sad that you didn't answer my question about Philip....
But the difference between Washington and Alexander is that their are extremely crediable historians saying that it was possible that Alexander had male lovers. Besides, I never liked Washington anyway, but him being bisexual wouldn't matter to me.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

But the difference between Washington and Alexander is that their are extremely crediable historians saying that it was possible that Alexander had male lovers

Its possible you do also. The fact that its possible dosent nake it so. As I have said before you cant use our interpretation of homosexuality whem discussing the Greeks. They didnt care for it anymore than we do.

LINK (http://www.sinc.sunysb.edu/Class/his374/pedlect.html)

As far as the sacred band goes there were only 150 couples in it.

[Hurin_Rules]

Gawain,
The link you provide argues that pederasty was an accepted part of Greek aristocratic culture.

It does say that the aristocrats were a minority and that most Greeks were not engaged in pederasty, but otherwise it does quite clearly show that aristocratic culture accepted pederasty.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

The link you provide argues that pederasty was an accepted part of Greek aristocratic culture.

And it also points out that this is a far differnt thing
from what we now call homosexuality. It also points out that sex among adult males was frowned upon to say the least.

Heres (http://www.livius.org/he-hg/hephaestion/hephaestion.htm) an interesting link


Alexander was now twenty-three and Hephaestion may have been twenty-four or older. According to the Macedonian and Greek ideas about love and sexuality, the time for homosexual affairs was over. The young men had to marry. Hephaestion could no longer be Alexander's lover, and had to find a new role, especially since the king accepted a Persian mistress, Barsine. However, the friendship between the two men remained very close.

But again a homosexual affair is not the same as what we now think of as such.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Its possible you do also. The fact that its possible dosent nake it so. As I have said before you cant use our interpretation of homosexuality whem discussing the Greeks. They didnt care for it anymore than we do.

LINK (http://www.sinc.sunysb.edu/Class/his374/pedlect.html)

As far as the sacred band goes there were only 150 couples in it.
And they all fought (suprisningly) valourously up untill the point that the last man was dead.

[hellenes]

I'm sad that you didn't answer my question about Philip....
But the difference between Washington and Alexander is that their are extremely crediable historians saying that it was possible that Alexander had male lovers. Besides, I never liked Washington anyway, but him being bisexual wouldn't matter to me.

What do you want me to do? To provide the EVIDENCE that YOU need to support the claim that Fillipos was bisexual?
About the difference: POSSIBLE...you know that is possible that the 9/11 attack was staged by the CIA by remotely controlling the planes' cockpit? Now is that an absurdity or what...
About Washington can someone from USA tell me what would have happened if a movie presenting him as a bisexual was released?

Hellenes

[Adrian II]

According to RottenTomatoes.com (http://www.rottentomatoes.com) its being panned by almost all of the critics as well.Here's today's Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A8971-2004Nov23.html) review which is quite funny to read as well. For those who aren't registered, here's the gist:


"[Stone's] Alexander, as expressed through the weepy histrionics of Colin Farrell, is more like a desperate housewife than a soldier. He's always crying, his voice trembles, his eyes fill with tears. He's much less interesting, except as a basket case, than Richard Burton's Alexander of far less enlightened times -- 1956 -- in Robert Rossen's "Alexander the Great." Burton got Alexander's dissipation, but also his martial spirit; this was, after all, one of the great light-cavalry commanders of all time and a general who fought by leading his troops, sword in hand, not directing them from some safe hill. But in this one you think: Teri Hatcher could kick this twerp's butt."

[Xiahou]

Here's today's Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A8971-2004Nov23.html) review which is quite funny to read as well.
Yeah, it's probably more entertaining than the movie will be. ~D
I'll be waiting for this one to come out on HBO, I don't think I'll want to spend the money to rent it.

For anyone else who wants to read it, get an account from bugmenot.com (http://bugmenot.com) to use if you can't be bothered to sign up for one....

[Steppe Merc]

great light-cavalry commanders
It's heavy cavalry...

[mercian billman]

What do you want me to do? To provide the EVIDENCE that YOU need to support the claim that Fillipos was bisexual?
About the difference: POSSIBLE...you know that is possible that the 9/11 attack was staged by the CIA by remotely controlling the planes' cockpit? Now is that an absurdity or what...
About Washington can someone from USA tell me what would have happened if a movie presenting him as a bisexual was released?

Hellenes

Evidence points to the possibility that Ancient Greek nales may have been bi-sexual. Nobody on this board (with one exception) is using that to disparage them and claim that modern Greeks are bi-sexuals.

There is no evidence which points to Washington being a bi-sexual or that 9-11 was staged by the CIA. If a movie presenting Washington as a bi-sexual were released it would be viewed as historically inaccurate.

[Adrian II]

Gentlemen, I am afraid Hellenes has drawn us into one of those unpalatable battles over national identity in the Balkans. These battles are always closely tied to territorial claims (http://www.turkishpress.com/news.asp?ID=33035) staked by silly flag-wavers and fascists. Until a couple of years ago Greeks had forgotten all about Alexander, but when neighbouring Macedonia broke away from the former Yugoslavia their politicians suddenly got their pink panties in a twist over Alexander's 'Greek' roots.

To balance Hellenes’ propaganda here are some rival viewpoints (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/MacedoniansStyledGreeks.html) from the Macedonian side, on Alexander as well as others issues. Wikipedia also has a nice page ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonians) which contains useful information about Greek, Bulgarian and other propagandists.


I’m worried more about the people who will see the movie and think:
"well the greatest general of all time was a fag haha those greeks are sissies admiring him"Ah yes, the old ‘we have nothing against homosexuals, but…’ A clear reference to attempts by Greek nationalists to ‘clean up’ their history, including the reputation of ‘their’ Alexander. Fascist websites like the Greco Report (http://www.grecoreport.com) maintain that the so-called ‘tales’ about Greek pederasty are made up by ‘Zionists’ and ‘globalist elites’ and of course by horrible American imperialists bent on smearing Greece and robbing it of its national pride. Yawn, yawn. Stone’s movie had to be filmed in Morocco and Thailand because, as the Athens News Agency explained, the Greek government opposed his portrayal of Alexander. Oh, grow up, one is tempted to say.

Anyway, the evidence concerning Greek pederasty is clear ever since Apollo fell in love with Hyacinthus, whereas Alexander was ‘not a Greek, but a knave from Macedonia’ as Demosthenes called him. It’s a pity, really, that History has dealt the Greeks the worst of both worlds: they are famous for the Greek vice, but not for Alexander’s exploits. Maybe they can make up for it by organizing the Gay Games - if they manage to finish the buildings in time, that is...

To rub it in to all Greek homophobes, here's another snapshot. It is from the glorious homosexual website Androphile.org which contains a lot of other interesting material.


http://www.androphile.org/preview/Museum/Greece/img/greek18.jpg

[Colovion]

ugh

many people back then were bi-sexual

it wasn't as sexually-fundamental as times are now. Sexuality was way more relaxed and you weren't in one group or the other if you wanted to penetrate another man.

Now that Christianity forms the basis of most modern day morality programs we enjoy some nice historical blind-sight that a lot of what Christianity stands against is also standing against a large amount of human history.

[mercian billman]

it wasn't as sexually-fundamental as times are now. Sexuality was way more relaxed and you weren't in one group or the other if you wanted to penetrate another man.

Actually it was considered wrong to be penetrated, if you were doing the penetrating that was considered all right (at least in Rome.)

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Sexuality was way more relaxed and you weren't in one group or the other if you wanted to penetrate another man.

Im afraid you were.


Now that Christianity forms the basis of most modern day morality programs we enjoy some nice historical blind-sight that a lot of what Christianity stands against is also standing against a large amount of human history.

Christianity got these ideas from the greeks.

[hellenes]

Gentlemen, I am afraid Hellenes has drawn us into one of those unpalatable battles over national identity in the Balkans. These battles are always closely tied to territorial claims (http://www.turkishpress.com/news.asp?ID=33035) staked by silly flag-wavers and fascists. Until a couple of years ago Greeks had forgotten all about Alexander, but when neighbouring Macedonia broke away from the former Yugoslavia their politicians suddenly got their pink panties in a twist over Alexander's 'Greek' roots.

To balance Hellenes’ propaganda here are some rival viewpoints (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/MacedoniansStyledGreeks.html) from the Macedonian side, on Alexander as well as others issues. Wikipedia also has a nice page ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonians) which contains useful information about Greek, Bulgarian and other propagandists.

Ah yes, the old ‘we have nothing against homosexuals, but…’ A clear reference to attempts by Greek nationalists to ‘clean up’ their history, including the reputation of ‘their’ Alexander. Fascist websites like the Greco Report (http://www.grecoreport.com) maintain that the so-called ‘tales’ about Greek pederasty are made up by ‘Zionists’ and ‘globalist elites’ and of course by horrible American imperialists bent on smearing Greece and robbing it of its national pride. Yawn, yawn. Stone’s movie had to be filmed in Morocco and Thailand because, as the Athens News Agency explained, the Greek government opposed his portrayal of Alexander. Oh, grow up, one is tempted to say.

Anyway, the evidence concerning Greek pederasty is clear ever since Apollo fell in love with Hyacinthus, whereas Alexander was ‘not a Greek, but a knave from Macedonia’ as Demosthenes called him. It’s a pity, really, that History has dealt the Greeks the worst of both worlds: they are famous for the Greek vice, but not for Alexander’s exploits. Maybe they can make up for it by organizing the Gay Games - if they manage to finish the buildings in time, that is...

To rub it in to all Greek homophobes, here's another snapshot. It is from the glorious homosexual website Androphile.org which contains a lot of other interesting material.


http://www.androphile.org/preview/Museum/Greece/img/greek18.jpg


Thank you for proving once more that people without ANY credible evidence just label their opposition "nazi" "fascists" "homophobes" etc etc...
As i remember Dimosthenis was an enemy of Makedonia and was in quarrel with Fillipos B' now also his mother was from Scythia as credible as he is...
Now i dont want to start asking question on who owns most of the companies in the USA and were the most external monetary help from USA goes nor which country the USA protects with vetos in the UN....
If the following writers are "nazis" then im a "nazi" too...

On the origin of the Macedonians

The Greek origin of the Macedonians is proven by the vast majority of the ancient historians.
Diodoros of Sicily talks about the links of Alexander to the Greek mythology (Diodoros, Historical Library 17.1.5):


"On his father's side Alexander was a descendant of Heracles and on his mother's he could claim the blood of the Aeacids, so that from his ancestors on both sides he inherited the physical and moral qualities of greatness."
Herodotus confirms that the Macedonians were people of Greek origin (Histories of Herodotus Book 5, paragraph 22.1)


"Now that these descendants of Perdiccas are Greeks, as they themselves say, I myself chance to know and will prove it in the later part of my history.That they are so has been already adjudged by those who manage the Pan-Hellenic contest at Olympia. "
And later on (Book 8, paragraph 137.1) he verifies it:


"This Alexander was seventh in descent from Perdiccas, who got for himself the tyranny of Macedonia in the way that I will show. Three brothers of the lineage of Temenus came as banished men from Argos to Illyria, Gauanes and Aeropus and Perdiccas; and from Illyria they crossed over into the highlands of Macedonia till they came to the town Lebaea."
Also in the very first book of his "Histories" (paragraph 56.3 ) Herodotus states about the origin of the the Greek people :


"For in the days of king Deucalion it inhabited the land of Phthia, then the country called Histiaean, under Ossa and Olympus, in the time of Dorus son of Hellen; driven from this Histiaean country by the Cadmeans, it settled about Pindus in the territory called Macedonian; from there again it migrated to Dryopia, and at last came from Dryopia into the Peloponnese, where it took the name of Dorian."
Thoukididis also verifies that the Macedonian kings' origin was from the Greek town of Argos (Book 2, 99.3):


"The country on the sea coast, now called Macedonia, was first acquired by Alexander, the father of Perdiccas, and his ancestors, originally Temenids from Argos."
Aristotelis, the teacher of Alexander the Great says about the rivers in Macedonia (Meteorologika, Book I, Par. 13):


"Of the rivers in the Greek world, the Achelous flows from Pindus, the Inachus from the same mountain; the Strymon, the Nestus, and the Hebrus all three from Scombrus; many rivers, too, flow from Rhodope."
Finally Isocratis states (To Philip, paragraph 32):


"Argos is the land of your fathers, and is entitled to as much consideration at your hands as are your own ancestors;"



On the language of the Macedonians

The Macedonians spoke the Greek language as the ancient authors verify. The Roman writer Titus Livius says : (from "The Foundation of the City", Paragraph 31)


"The Aitolians, the Akarnanians, the Macedonians, men of the same language, are united or disunited by trivial causes that arise from time to time; with aliens, with barbarians, all Greeks wage and will wage eternal war; for they are enemies by the will of nature, which is eternal, and not from reasons that change from day to day."
Didorus of Sicily (17.67.1) says:


"After this Alexander left Dareius's mother, his daughters, and his son in Susa, providing them with persons to teach them the Greek language, and marching on with his army on the fourth day reached the Tigris River. "



On the religion of the Macedonians

The Macedonians had the same religion as the rest of the Greeks, they worshiped the twelve Olympian Gods.

Two quotes from Plutarch's "Alexander"


"Philip, after this vision, sent Chaeron of Megalopolis to consult the oracle of Apollo at Delphi, by which he was commanded to perform sacrifice, and henceforth pay particular honour, above all other gods, to Zeus;"

"He [Alexander he Great] erected altars, also, to the gods, which the kings of the Praesians even in our time do honour to when they pass the river, and offer sacrifice upon them after the Greek manner."
Diodoros of Sicily also makes clear that the Macedonnians worshiped the twelve Greek Gods:

Histories, Chapter 16, 95.2


"Along with lavish display of every sort, Philip included in the procession statues of the twelve Gods brought with great artistry and adorned with a dazzling show of wealth to strike awe to the beholder, and along with these was conducted a thirteenth statue, suitable for a god, that of Philip himself, so that the king exhibited himself enthroned among the twelve Gods."
Histories, Chapter 16, 91.5-6


"He (King Philip) wanted as many Greeks as possible to take part in the festivities in honour of the gods, and so planned brilliant musical contests and lavish banquets for his friends and guests. Out of all Greece he summoned his personal guest-friends and ordered the members of his court to bring along as many as they could of their acquaintances from abroad."



On the culture of the Macedonians


"Alexandros observed that his soldiers were exhausted with their constant campaigns. ... The hooves of the horses had been worn thin by steady marching. The arms and armour were wearing out, and the Hellenic clothing was quite gone. They had to clothe themselves in materials of the barbarians,..."
(Diodoros of Sicily 17.94.1-2)



On the geography of Macedonian

The great philosopher Aristotelis (Aristotle) considers the rivers in Macedonias as "rivers in the Greek world"


"Of the rivers in the Greek world, the Achelous flows from Pindus, the Inachus from the same mountain; the Strymon, the Nestus, and the Hebrus all three from Scombrus; many rivers, too, flow from Rhodope. ..."
(Aristotelis, Meteorology, Book 1, Par. 13)
and later on he says:


"The deluge in the time of Deucalion, for instance, took place chiefly in the Greek world and in it especially about ancient Hellas, the country about Dodona and the Achelous, a river which has often changed its course. Here the Selli dwelt and those who were formerly called Graeci and now Hellenes..."
(Aristotelis, Meteorology, Book 1, Par. 13)



What did the Macedonians think of themselves?

It is very clear from the surviving ancient sources that the Macedonians considered themselves to be Greeks.

In Herodotus (Book 9, paragraph 45.2) Alexander I , king of Macedonia says:


"... I myself am by ancient descent a Greek, and I would not willingly see Hellas change her freedom for slavery ..."
Alexander III (the Great) talking to the king of the Persians says: (Arrian, Anabasis of Alexander II,14,4)


"Your ancestors invaded Macedonia and the rest of Greece and did us great harm, though we had done them no prior injury [...] I have been appointed hegemon of the Greeks [...] "
Arrian ("Alexander the Great" 1,16,7) describes the following incident: After winning an important battle in Asia ...
"He [Alexander the Great] sent to Athens three hundred Persian panoplies to be set up to Athena in the acropolis; he ordered this inscription to be attached: Alexander son of Philip and the Hellenes, except the Lacedaemonians, set up these spoils from the barbarians dwelling in Asia"
(Diodoros of Sicily 16.93.1)
"Every seat in the theater was taken when Philip appeared wearing a white cloak and by his express orders his bodyguard held away from him and followed only at a distance, since he wanted to show publicly that he was protected by the goodwill of all the Hellenes, and had no need of a guard of spearmen."

And from Flavious Josephus (11.8.5) we have the following incident where Alexander clearly considers himself a Greek:


"And when the book of Daniel was showed to him (Alexander the Great) wherein Daniel declared that one of the Greeks should destroy the empire of the Persians, he supposed that himself was the person intended"



What did the rest of the Greeks think?

The ancient Greek people alwayws considered the Macedonians to be Greek as well. This can be easily proved because the Macedonians were members of all the Greek institutions, such as the Delphic amphictiony:

Pausanias writes in his book "Description of Greece" (10.3.3):

"The Phocians were deprived of their share in the Delphic sanctuary and in the Greek assembly, and their votes were given by the Amphictyons to the Macedonians."
and also in his book "Phokis" (8,2 & 4):
"They say that these were the tribes collected by Amphiktyon himself in the Hellenic Assembly: [...] the Macedonians joined and the entire Phocian race [...] In my day there were thirty members: six from each of Nikopolis, Macedonia and Thessaly [...] "
Aeschines (On the Embassy 2.32) gives evidence of the Macedonian king Amyntas taking part at the congress of the Lacedaemonian allies and the other Greeks:

"For at a congress of the Lacedaemonian allies and the other Greeks, in which Amyntas, the father of Philip, being entitled to a seat, was represented by a delegate whose vote was absolutely under his control, he joined the other Greeks in voting to help Athens to recover possession of Amphipolis. As proof of this I presented from the public records the resolution of the Greek congress and the names of those who voted".
Isocratis, one of the most impotant orators of ancient Greece says in his speach "To Philip" addressed to King Philip II of Macedonia (Paragaraph 127):


"Therefore, since the others are so lacking in spirit, I think it is opportune for you to head the war against the King; and, while it is only natural for the other descendants of Heracles, and for men who are under the bonds of their polities and laws, to cleave fondly to that state in which they happen to dwell, it is your privilege, as one who has been blessed with untrammeled freedom, to consider all Greece your fatherland, as did the founder of your race, and to be as ready to brave perils for her sake as for the things about which you are personally most concerned."
The Sicilian historian Diodoros says in his history about King Philip of Macedonia (Diodoros, Historical Library 16.95.1-2)
"Such was the end of Philip, who had made himself the greatest of the kings in Europe in his time, and because of the extent of his kingdom had made himself a throned companion of the twelve gods. He had ruled twenty-four years. He is known to fame as one who with but the slenderest resources to support his claim to a throne won for himself the greatest empire in the Greek world, while the growth of his position was not due so much to his prowess in arms as to his adroitness and cordiality in diplomacy.
Even the Persians considerd Macedonia a part of Greece! The Persian king Mardonius says : (From the Histories of Herodotus Book 7, Paragraph 9.1-2).


"We know the manner of their battle- we know how weak their power is; already have we subdued their children who dwell in our country, the Ionians, Aeolians, and Dorians. I myself have had experience of these men when I marched against them by the orders of thy father; and though I went as far as Macedonia, and came but a little short of reaching Athens itself, yet not a soul ventured to come out against me to battle. [...] Yet the Greeks are accustomed to wage wars, as I learn, and they do it most senselessly in their wrongheadedness and folly [...]. Since they speak the same language, they should end their disputes by means of heralds or messengers, or by any way rather than fighting; if they must make war upon each other, they should each discover where they are in the strongest position and make the attempt there. The Greek custom, then, is not good; and when I marched as far as the land of Macedonia, it had not come into their minds to fight."
Mardonius marched against the Greeks and he "went as far as Macedonia, and came but a little short of reaching Athens itself". Obviously he considers Macedonia a part of Greece!

Hellenes

[Adrian II]

As i remember Dimosthenis was an enemy of Makedonia and was in quarrel with Fillipos B' now also his mother was from Scythia as credible as he is...I see, his mother was Scythian, therefore we should discard Demosthenes as a source...

Look Hellenes, we're no fools here. You copy entire pages from the Real Macedonia (http://www.real.macedonia.gr/about.html) website. That website is, by its own admission, part of a political campaign to deny the neighbouring state of Macedonia its language, history and political independence. This goes back to the Megale Idea ('Great Idea') of the 1830's when Greek nationalists weren't satisfied with their independence and wanted a 'Greater Greece' covering most of their ancient territory. It is part and parcel of the horrible Balkan legacy of irredentism, internecine fighting and civil wars. The Megale Idea involved extreme territorial claims against Albania over Epiros, against Turkey over Istanbul, Cyprus and the Eastern Aegean, and against Serbia-Montenegro over Macedonia. Within Greece itself the Megale Idea has caused endless tragedy, huge military and economic losses as well as civil war and dictatorship.

Alexander lived long before all this nonsense was invented. Of course he was neither Greek nor Macedonian in any modern, politically convenient sense. In a way he was more modern than his present descendants on both sides of the Greek-Macedonian border...
Now i dont want to start asking question on who owns most of the companies in the USA and were the most external monetary help from USA goes nor which country the USA protects with vetos in the UN....You better don't, Hellenes. Because if you do, you will be thrown off this board for anti-Semitic propaganda. Let us agree that Stone's vision of a transnational, bisexual Alexander is your worst nightmare. I can live with that ~:)

[hellenes]

You better don't, Hellenes. Because if you do, you will be thrown off this board for anti-Semitic propaganda. Let us agree that Stone's vision of a transnational, bisexual Alexander is your worst nightmare. I can live with that ~:)

Well if thats the way it works its ok for me...
However you impose this SELECTIVE DEMOCRACY the reality wont change...
Just enjoy Stone's masterpiece enjoying itself in the garbage bin:

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/alexander/

Hellenes

[Adrian II]

However you impose this SELECTIVE DEMOCRACY the reality wont change...I'll take you up on that challenge - after all it's not up to me to ban anyone from this board.

So we are talking about two propositions:

1. Jewish financiers are behind Stone's portrayal of Alexander as a bisexual
2. Jews control most of American big business.

Ad 1.
Go ahead, Hellenes. State you case.

Ad 2.
Instead of suggestions, I would like to see some hard evidence. To help you focus I have copied the Fortune 500 specially for you. Please enlighten us about Jewish control over the majority of the following firms?

Fortune 500 2004

1. Wal-Mart Stores Inc., Bentonville, Ark., 1, $258.681

2. Exxon Mobil Corp., Irving, Texas, 3, $213.199

3. General Motors Corp., Detroit, 2, $195.645

4. Ford Motor Co., Dearborn, Mich., 4, $164.496

5. General Electric Co., Fairfield, Conn., 5, $134.187

6. ChevronTexaco Corp., San Ramon, Calif., 7, $112.937

7. ConocoPhillips, Houston, 12, $99.468

8. Citigroup Inc., New York, 6, $94.713

9. International Business Machines Corp., Armonk, N.Y., 8, $89.131

10. American International Group, Inc., New York, 9, $81.300

11. Hewlett-Packard Co., Palo Alto, Calif., 14, $73.061

12. Verizon Communications Inc., New York, 10, $67.752

13. The Home Depot Inc., Atlanta, 13, $64.816

14. Berkshire Hathaway Inc., Omaha, 28, $63.859

15. Altria Group Inc., New York, 11, $60.704

16. McKesson Corp., San Francisco, 20, $57.129

17. Cardinal Health Inc., Dublin, Ohio, 19, $56.830

18. State Farm Insurance Cos., Bloomington, Ill., 21, $56.065

19. The Kroger Co., Cincinnati, 18, $53.791

20. Fannie Mae, Washington, D.C., 16, $53.767

21. The Boeing Co., Chicago, 15, $50.485

22. AmerisourceBergen Corp., Chesterbrook, Pa., 24, $49.657

23. Target Corp., Minneapolis, 25, $48.163

24. Bank of America Corp., Charlotte, N.C., 23, $48.065

25. Pfizer Inc., New York, 37, $45.950

26. J.P. Morgan Chase & Co., New York, 26, $44.363

27. Time Warner Inc., New York, 29, $43.877

28. The Procter & Gamble Co., Cincinnati, 31, $43.377

29. Costco Wholesale Corp., Issaquah, Wash., 33, $42.546

30. Johnson & Johnson, New Brunswick, N.J., 34, $41.862

31. Dell Inc., Round Rock, Texas, 36, $41.444

32. Sears Roebuck and Co., Hoffman Estates, Ill., 30, $41.124

33. SBC Communications Inc., San Antonio, 27, $40.843

34. Valero Energy Corp, San Antonio, 55, $37.969

35. Marathon Oil Corp., Houston, 52, $37.137

36. MetLife Inc., New York, 38, $36.261

37. Safeway Inc., Pleasanton, Calif., 41, $35.553

38. Albertson's Inc., Boise, 35, $35.436

39. Morgan Stanley, New York, 40, $34.933

40. AT&T, Bedminster, N.J., 22, $34.529

41. Medco Health Solutions, Franklin Lakes, N.J., new to list, $34.265

42. United Parcel Service Inc., Atlanta, 43, $33.485

43. J.C. Penney Co. Inc., Plano, Texas, 42, $32.923

44. The Dow Chemical Co., Midland, Mich., 51, $32.632

45. Walgreen Co., Deerfield, Ill., 45, $32.505

46. Microsoft Corp., Redmond, Wash., 47, $32.187

47. The Allstate Corp., Northbrook, Ill., 44, $32.149

48. Lockheed Martin Corp., Bethesda, Md., 56, $31.844

49. Wells Fargo & Co., San Francisco, 46, $31.800

50. Lowe's Cos. Inc., Mooresville, N.C., 60, $31.263

51. United Technologies Corp., Hartford, Conn., 49, $31.034

52. Archer-Daniels-Midland Co., Decatur, Ill., 71, $30.708

53. Intel Corp., Santa Clara, Calif., 58, $30.141

54. UnitedHealth Group Inc., Minnetonka, Minn., 63, $28.823

55. Northrop Grumman Corp., Los Angeles, 99, $28.686

56. Delphi Corp., Troy, Mich., 53, $28.096

57. Prudential Financial Inc., Newark, N.J., 57, $27.907

58. Merrill Lynch & Co. Inc., New York, 48, $27.745

59. E.I. du Pont de Nemours, Wilmington, Del., 67, $27.730

60. The Walt Disney Co., Burbank, Calif., 61, $27.061

61. Motorola Inc., Schaumburg, Ill., 59, $27.058

62. PepsiCo Inc., Purchase, N.Y., 62, $26.971

63. CVS Corp., Woonsocket, R.I., 68, $26.588

64. Viacom Inc., New York, 66, $26.585

65. Sprint Corp., Overland Park, Kan., 54, $26.202

66. Sysco Corp., Houston, 73, $26.140

67. Kmart Holding Corp., Troy, Mich., 39, $26.032

68. TIAA-CREF, New York, 89, $26.016

69. American Express Co., New York, 69, $25.866

70. New York Life Insurance Co., New York, 65, $25.700

71. International Paper Co., Stamford, Conn., 64, $25.200

72. Tyson Foods Inc., Springdale, Ark., 72, $24.549

73. Wachovia Corp., Charlotte, N.C., 70, $24.474

74. Goldman Sachs Group Inc., New York, 75, $23.623

75. Duke Energy, Charlotte, N.C., 118, $23.483

76. Honeywell International Inc., Morristown, N.J., 78, $23.103

77. Caterpillar Inc., Peoria, Ill., 85, $22.763

78. Best Buy Co. Inc., Richfield, Minn., 91, $22.673

79. Johnson Controls Inc., Milwaukee, 86, $22.646

80. BellSouth Corp., Atlanta, 77, $22.635

81. Ingram Micro Inc., Santa Ana, Calif., 76, $22.613

82. FedEx Corp., Memphis, 83, $22.487

83. Merck & Co. Inc., Whitehouse Station, N.J., 17, $22.486

84. ConAgra Foods Inc. Omaha, 50, $22.053

85. HCA Inc, Nashville, 90, $21.808

86. Alcoa Inc., Pittsburgh, 82, $21.728

87. Electronic Data Systems, Plano, Texas, 80, $21.596

88. Bank One Corp., Chicago, 79, $21.454

89. Comcast Corp., Philadelphia, 157, $21.263

90. Massachusetts Mutual Life Insurance Co., Springfield, Mass., 84, $21.076

91. The Coca-Cola Co., Atlanta, 92, $21.044

92. Bristol-Myers Squibb Co., New York, 98, $20.671

93. WellPoint Health Networks Inc., Thousand Oaks, Calif., 103, $20.360

94. Georgia-Pacific Corp., Atlanta, 74, $20.255

95. Weyerhaeuser Co., Federal Way, Wash., 96, $19.873

96. Abbott Laboratories, Abbott Park, Ill., 100, $19.681

97. AutoNation Inc., Fort Lauderdale, 93, $19.381

98. The Williams Cos. Inc., Tulsa, 196, $19.246

99. Supervalu Inc., Eden Prairie, Minn., 81, $19.160

100. Cisco Systems Inc., San Jose, Calif., 95, $18.878

101. CIGNA Corp., Philadelphia, 87, $18.808

102. Hartford Financial Services Group Inc., Hartford, Conn., 114, $18.733

103. Washington Mutual Inc., Seattle, 94, $18.629

104. Sara Lee Corp., Chicago, 101, $18.291

105. 3M, St. Paul, 110, $18.232

106. Cendant Corp., New York, 133, $18.192

107. Raytheon Co., Waltham, Mass., 105, $18.109

108. Aetna Inc., Hartford, Conn., 88, $17.976.40

109. Visteon Corp., Dearborn, Mich., 97, $17.660

110. AMR Corp., Fort Worth, 104, $17.440

111. Tech Data Corp., Clearwater, Fla., 117, $17.406

112. Coca-Cola Enterprises Inc., Atlanta, 108, $17.330

113. Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc., New York, 109, $17.287

114. McDonald's Corp., Oak Brook, Ill., 124, $17.141

115. Northwestern Mutual Life Insurance Co., Milwaukee, 113, $17.060

116. Liberty Mutual Insurance Group, Boston, 129, $16.914

117. Publix Super Markets Inc., Lakeland, Fla., 112, $16.848

118. Nationwide Mutual Insurance Co., Columbus, Ohio, 111, $16.803

119. Anthem Inc., Indianapolis, 146, $16.771

120. AT&T Wireless Services Inc., Redmond, Wash., 119, $16.695

121. General Dynamics Corp., Falls Church, Va., 137, $16.617

122. Halliburton Co., Houston, 153, $16.271

123. Sunoco Inc., Philadelphia, 154, $15.930

124. The Gap Inc., San Francisco, 130, $15.854

125. Wyeth, Madison, N.J., 128, $15.851

126. Exelon Corp., Chicago, 126, $15.812

127. Loews Corp., New York, 107, $15.810

128. Rite Aid Corp., Camp Hill, Pa., 125, $15.801

129. Lear Corp., Southfield, Mich., 131, $15.747

130. Xerox Corp., Stamford, Conn., 116, $15.701

131. Deere & Co., Moline, Ill., 135, $15.535

132. American Electric Power Co. Inc., Columbus, Ohio, 120, $15.441

133. U.S. Bancorp, Minneapolis, 123, $15.354

134. Federated Department Stores Inc., Cincinnati, 122, $15.264

135. Travelers Property Casualty Corp., Hartford, Conn., new to list, $15.139

136. Qwest Communications International Inc., Denver, 121, $14.936

137. Goodyear Tire & Rubber Co., Akron, Ohio, 139, $14.741

138. Tenet Healthcare Corp., Santa Barbara, Calif., 136, $14.582

139. Amerada Hess Corp., New York, 162, $14.408

140. FleetBoston Financial Corp., Boston, 115, $14.362

141. Kimberly-Clark Corp., Irving, Texas, 143, $14.348

142. Anheuser-Busch Cos. Inc., St. Louis, 142, $14.147

143. AdvancePCS Inc., Irving, Texas, 148, $14.111

144. Emerson Electric Co., St. Louis, 138, $13.999

145. UAL Corp., Elk Grove Township, Ill., 132, $13.724

146. Countrywide Financial Corp., Calabasas, Calif., 209, $13.660

147. The May Department Stores Co., St. Louis, 144, $13.343

148. The TJX Cos. Inc., Framingham, Mass., 161, $13.328

149. Eastman Kodak Co., Rochester, N.Y., 150, $13.317

150. Delta Air Lines Inc., Atlanta, 145, $13.303

151. Express Scripts Inc., Maryland Heights, Mo., 147, $13.296

152. Staples Inc., Framingham, Mass., 165, $13.181

153. Union Pacific Corp., Omaha, 156, $12.792

154. El Paso Corp., Houston, 152, $12.653

155. Plains All American Pipeline, L.P., Houston, 221, $12.590

156. Eli Lilly and Co., Indianapolis, 172, $12.583

157. Office Depot Inc., Delray Beach, Fla., 166, $12.359

158. FirstEnergy Corp., Akron, Ohio, 159, $12.318

159. Humana Inc., Louisville, 169, $12.226

160. Manpower Inc., Milwaukee, 176, $12.185

161. Whirlpool Corp., Benton Harbor, Mich., 173, $12.176

162. Winn-Dixie Stores Inc., Jacksonville, Fla., 149, $12.168

163. Edison International, Rosemead, Calif., 163, $12.156

164. Dominion Resources Inc., Richmond, Va., 184, $12.078

165. The Progressive Corp., Mayfield Village, Ohio, 197, $11.892

166. Reliant Resources Inc., Houston, 164, $11.707

167. Solectron Corp., Milpitas, Calif., 158, $11.700

168. MBNA Corp., Wilmington, Del., 179, $11.684

169. Marsh & McLennan Cos. Inc., New York, 178, $11.588

170. Waste Management Inc., Houston, 171, $11.574

171. Toys "R" Us Inc., Wayne, N.J., 168, $11.566

172. AFLAC, Columbus, Ga., 183, $11.447

173. Sun Microsystems Inc., Santa Clara, Calif., 155, $11.434

174. Chubb Corp., Warren, N.J., 203, $11.394

175. Computer Sciences Corp., El Segundo, Calif., 167, $11.347

176. Public Service Enterprise Group Inc., Newark, N.J., 211, $11.340

177. TexasU Corp., Dallas, 134, $11.325

178. The Southern Co., Atlanta, 177, $11.251

179. PG&E Corp., San Francisco, 140, $11.221

180. Masco Corp., Taylor, Mich., 195, $11.134

181. Health Net Inc., Woodland Hills, Calif., 185, $11.063

182. PacifiCare Health Systems Inc., Cypress, Calif., 170, $11.009

183. Nextel Communications Inc., Reston, Va., 216, $10.820

184. Nike Inc., Beaverton, Ore., 188, $10.697

185. United Services Automobile Association, San Antonio, 199, $10.593

186. General Mills Inc., Minneapolis, 235, $10.506

187. UnumProvident Corp., Chattanooga, Tenn., 192, $10.400

188. Sanmina-SCI Corp., San Jose, Calif., 214, $10.361

189. Kohl's Corp., Menomonee Falls, Wis., 204, $10.282

190. The Pepsi Bottling Group Inc., Somers, N.Y., 200, $10.265

191. Illinois Tool Works Inc., Glenview, Ill., 189, $10.138

192. John Hancock Financial Services Inc., Boston, 208, $10.071

193. Dana Corp., Toledo, Ohio, 182, $10.071

194. Textron Inc., Providence 174, $10.028

195. Circuit City Stores Inc., Richmond, Va., 151, $9.954

196. Colgate-Palmolive Co., New York, 198, $9.903

197. Texas Instruments Inc., Dallas, 223, $9.834

198. Consolidated Edison Inc., New York, 217, $9.827

199. Aon Corp., Chicago, 212, $9.823

200. Capital One Financial Corp., McLean, Va., 191, $9.784

201. CenterPoint Energy Inc., Houston, 236, $9.772

202. Aramark Corp., Philadelphia, 213, $9.712.10

203. Constellation Energy Group Inc., Baltimore, 352, $9.703

204. The AES Corp., Arlington, Va., 181, $9.649

205. FPL Group Inc., Juno Beach, Fla., 226, $9.630

206. National City Corp., Cleveland, 215, $9.594

207. Northwest Airlines Corp., Eagan, Minn., 193, $9.510

208. Oracle Corp., Redwood City, Calif., 190, $9.475

209. United States Steel Corp., Pittsburgh, 264, $9.458

210. Burlington Northern Santa Fe Corp., Fort Worth, 205, $9.413

211. Principal Financial Group Inc., Des Moines, 210, $9.404

212. CHS Inc., Inver Grove Heights, Minn., 237, $9.399

213. H.J. Heinz Co., Pittsburgh, 194, $9.328

214. Occidental Petroleum Corp., Los Angeles, 252, $9.326

215. Gillette Co., Boston, 218, $9.252

216. Marriott International Inc., Bethesda, Md., 175, $9.198

217. Entergy Corp., New Orleans, 224, $9.195

218. Dean Foods Co., Dallas, 201, $9.185

219. Centex Corp., Dallas, 241, $9.117

220. Baxter International, Deerfield, Ill., 222, $9.087

221. Caremark Rx Inc., Nashville, 267, $9.067

222. Pulte Homes Inc., Bloomfield Hills, Mich., 250, $9.049

223. Avnet Inc., Phoenix, 206, $9.048

224. Progress Energy Inc., Raleigh, N.C., 228, $9.027

225. Guardian Life Insurance Co. of America, New York, 232, $9.022

226. Calpine Corp., San Jose, Calif., 246, $8.997

227. The St. Paul Cos. Inc., St. Paul, 207, $8.958

228. Limited Brands Inc., Columbus, Ohio, 202, $8.934

229. Clear Channel Communications Inc., San Antonio, 219, $8.931

230. Lennar Corp., Miami 256, $8.908

231. Continental Airlines Inc., Houston, 220, $8.870

232. Fluor, Aliso Viejo, Calif., 186, $8.836

233. Kellogg Co., Battle Creek, Mich., 225, $8.812

234. Premcor Inc., Old Greenwich, Conn., 269, $8.804

235. United Auto Group Inc., Bloomfield Hills, Mich., 244, $8.804

236. PPG Industries Inc., Pittsburgh, 233, $8.756

237. Tesoro Petroleum Corp., San Antonio, 263, $8.718

238. Arrow Electronics, Inc, Melville, N.Y., 245, $8.679

239. Omnicom Group Inc., New York, 247, $8.621

240. American Standard Cos. Inc., Piscataway, N.J., 238, $8.568

241. D.R. Horton Inc., Arlington, Texas, 271, $8.552

242. First Data Corp., Greenwood Village, Colo. 242, $8.544

243. Lucent Technologies Inc., Murray Hill, N.J., 141, $8.470

244. Genuine Parts Co., Atlanta, 227, $8.449

245. Yum! Brands Inc., Louisville, 240, $8.380

246. Amgen Inc., Thousand Oaks, Calif., 305, $8.356

247. Schering-Plough Corp., Kenilworth, N.J., 187, $8.334

248. Boise Cascade Corp., Boise, 254, $8.245

249. TransMontaigne Inc., Denver, new to list, $8.241

250. Paccar Inc., Bellevue, Wash., 257, $8.195

251. Alltel Corp., Little Rock, 234, $8.190

252. Ashland Inc., Covington, Ky., 239, $8.080

253. Eaton Corp., Cleveland, 258, $8.061

254. Xcel Energy Inc., Minneapolis, 180, $7.939

255. Smurfit-Stone Container Corp., Chicago, 230, $7.914

256. Smithfield Foods, Smithfield, Va., 255, $7.905

257. Sempra Energy, San Diego, Calif., 291, $7.887

258. Dillard's Inc., Little Rock, 229, $7.864

259. CSX, Jacksonville, Fla., 231, $7.793

260. ArvinMeritor Inc., Troy, Mich., 266, $7.788

261. Newell Rubbermaid Inc., Alpharetta, Ga., 251, $7.750

262. Fidelity National Financial Inc., Jacksonville, Fla., 326, $7.715

263. Medtronic Inc., Minneapolis, 276, $7.665

264. Sonic Automotive, Charlotte, N.C., 253, $7.598

265. MeadWestvaco Corp., Stamford, Conn., 249, $7.553

266. The Bear Stearns Cos. Inc., New York, 265, $7.395

267. Safeco Corp., Seattle, 260, $7.358

268. Devon Energy Corp., Oklahoma City, 369, $7.352

269. Navistar International Corp., Warrenville, Ill., 274, $7.340

270. Pepco Holdings Inc., Washington, D.C., 377, $7.271

271. Automatic Data Processing Inc., Roseland, N.J., 261, $7.147

272. SunTrust Banks Inc., Atlanta, 248, $7.071

273. DTE Energy Co., Detroit, 270, $7.062

274. Keyspan Corp., Brooklyn, N.Y., 290, $6.915

275. Avon Products Inc., New York, 280, $6.876

276. US Airways Group Inc., Arlington, Va., 262, $6.846

277. BJ's Wholesale Club Inc., Natick, Mass., 295, $6.724

278. Gannett Co. Inc., McLean, Va., 275, $6.711

279. Farmland Industries Inc., Kansas City, Mo., 243, $6.703

280. Campbell Soup Co., Camden, N.J., 286, $6.678

281. Dollar General Corp., Goodlettsville, Tenn., 289, $6.665

282. Crown Holdings Inc., Philadelphia, 268, $6.630

283. Kinder Morgan Energy Partners, L.P., Houston, new to list, $6.624

284. Thrivent Financial for Lutherans, Minneapolis, 302, $6.575

285. Unocal Corp., El Segundo, Calif., 316, $6.539

286. Nordstrom Inc., Seattle, 293, $6.4912

287. Fifth Third Bancorp, Cinncinnati, 278, $6.486

288. Norfolk Southern Corp., Norfolk, Va., 279, $6.468

289. Science Applications International Corp., San Diego, Calif., 288, $6.457

290. Rohm and Haas Co., Philadelphia, 301, $6.421

291. Parker-Hannifin Corp., Cleveland, 283, $6.410

292. NiSource Inc., Merrillville, Ind., 273, $6.401

293. InterActive Corp., New York, 319, $6.338

294. The Bank of New York Co. Inc., New York, 299, $6.336

295. Air Products & Chemicals, Inc, Allentown, Pa., 311, $6.297

296. Cummins, Columbus, Ind., 296, $6.296

297. Nucor, Charlotte, N.C., 342, $6.266

298. BB&T Corp., Winston-Salem, N.C., 287, $6.244

299. EMC Corp., Hopkinton, Mass., 308, $6.237

300. The First American Corp., Santa Ana, Calif., 351, $6.214

301. Apple Computer Inc., Cupertino, Calif., 300, $6.207

302. Owens-Illinois, Toledo, Ohio, 298, $6.158

303. Interpublic Group of Cos. Inc., New York, 282, $6.114

304. Northeast Utilities, Berlin, Conn., 330, $6.065

305. Agilent Technologies Inc., Palo Alto, Calif., 292, $6.056

306. Saks, Inc., Birmingham, Ala., 294, $6.055

307. CMS Energy Corp., Jackson, Mich., 272, $6.017

308. Land O'Lakes Inc., Arden Hills, Minn., 297, $5.978

309. PN.C. Financial Services Group Inc., Pittsburgh, 277, $5.969

310. Southwest Airlines Co., Dallas, 306, $5.937

311. Fortune Brands, Lincolnshire, Ill., 313, $5.913

312. Unisys Corp., Blue Bell, Pa., 303, $5.911

313. American Family Ins. Group, Madison, Wis., 323, $5.895

314. Mirant Corp., Atlanta, 259, $5.863

315. KB Home, Los Angeles, 332, $5.851

316. Dynegy Inc., Houston, 336, $5.813

317. Eastman Chemical, Kingsport, Tenn., 315, $5.800

318. Cox Communications Inc., Atlanta, 329, $5.759

319. KeyCorp, Cleveland, 285, $5.730

320. ITT Industries Inc., White Plains, N.Y., 333, $5.627

321. Praxair Inc., Danbury, Conn., 324, $5.613

322. N.C.R Corp., Dayton, Ohio, 304, $5.598

323. Tribune Co., Chicago, 312, $5.595

324. PPL Corp., Allentown, Pa., 309, $5.587

325. Barnes & Noble Inc., New York, 318, $5.585

326. Allied Waste Industries, Scottsdale, Ariz., 307, $5.583

327. Echostar Communications Corp., Englewood, Colo. 341, $5.551

328. Federal-Mogul Corp., Southfield, Mich., 310, $5.546

329. Performance Food Group Co., Richmond, Va., 366, $5.520

330. State Street Corp., Boston, 340, $5.463

331. AutoZone Inc., Memphis, 314, $5.457

332. Oxford Health Plans Inc., Trumbull, Conn., 334, $5.452

333. The Sherwin-Williams Co., Cleveland, 321, $5.408

334. Baker Hughes Inc., Houston, 320, $5.391

335. WellChoice Inc., New York, 325, $5.383

336. Enterprise Products Partners, L.P., Houston, 438, $5.346

337. Autoliv Inc., Ogden, Utah, 365, $5.301

338. Danaher, Washington, D.C., 357, $5.294

339. Lincoln National Corp., Philadelphia, 356, $5.284

340. Murphy Oil Corp., El Dorado, Ark., 402, $5.275

341. R.J. Reynolds Tobacco Holdings Inc., Winston-Salem, N.C., 281, $5.267

342. Amazon.com Inc., Seattle, 407, $5.264

343. VF Corp., Greensboro, N.C., 322, $5.208

344. SPX Corp., Charlotte, N.C., 328, $5.130

345. Anadarko Petroleum Corp., The Woodlands, Texas, 414, $5.122

346. The Estee Lauder Cos. Inc., New York, 349, $5.118

347. CNF Inc., Palo Alto, Calif., 347, $5.104

348. L-3 Communications Holdings Inc., New York, 398, $5.062

349. Mohawk Industries Inc., Calhoun, Ga., 361, $5.005

350. Owens Corning, Toledo, Ohio, 338, $4.996

351. Ball Corp., Broomfield, Colo. 415, $4.977

352. Mattel Inc., El Segundo, Calif., 337, $4.960

353. Monsanto Co., St. Louis, new to list, $4.936

354. Energy East Corp., Albany, N.Y., 399, $4.919

355. Harley-Davidson Inc., Milwaukee, 392, $4.904

356. The McGraw-Hill Cos. Inc., New York, 343, $4.839

357. Asbury Automotive Group Inc., Stamford, Conn., 360, $4.835

358. Charter Communications Inc., St. Louis, 362, $4.819

359. Avery Dennison Corp., Pasadena, Calif., 384, $4.807

360. Ryder System Inc., Miami 345, $4.802

361. Maytag Corp., Newton, Iowa, 344, $4.792

362. R.R. Donnelley & Sons Co., Chicago, 348, $4.787

363. Foot Locker Inc., New York, 363, $4.779

364. Lexmark International Inc., Lexington, Ky., 373, $4.755

365. Family Dollar Stores Inc., Matthews, N.C., 388, $4.750

366. Quest Diagnostics Inc., Teterboro, N.J., 391, $4.738

367. Jabil Circuit Inc., St. Petersburg, Fla., 441, $4.730

368. Erie Insurance Group, Erie, Pa., 454, $4.717

369. Ikon Office Solutions Inc., Malvern, Pa., 339, $4.711

370. Conseco Inc., Carmel, Ind., 284, $4.710

371. CIT Group Inc., Livingston, N.J., 317, $4.677

372. Temple-Inland Inc., Austin, Texas, 353, $4.671

373. Caesars Entertainment, Las Vegas, NV, 354, $4.669

374. Pacific LifeCorp, Newport Beach, Calif., 419, $4.6687

375. W.W. Grainger Inc., Lake Forest, Ill., 355, $4.667

376. CDW Corp., Vernon Hills, Ill., 381, $4.665

377. Darden Restaurants Inc., Orlando, 372, $4.655

378. RadioShack Corp., Fort Worth, 358, $4.649

379. Jacobs Engineering Group Inc., Pasadena, Calif., 359, $4.616

380. Dole Food Co. Inc., Westlake Village, Calif., 371, $4.608

381. The Black & Decker Corp., Towson, Md., 370, $4.602

382. Ameren Corp., St. Louis, 418, $4.593

383. Pitney Bowes Inc., Stamford, Conn., 368, $4.577

384. Dover Corp., New York, 382, $4.559

385. Mellon Financial Corp., Pittsburgh, 350, $4.550

386. Coventry Health Care Inc., Bethesda, Md., 439, $4.535

387. Emcor Group Inc., Norwalk, Conn., 404, $4.5346

388. Becton, Dickinson and Co., Franklin Lakes, N.J., 396, $4.528

389. Longs Drug Stores Corp., Walnut Creek, Calif., 367, $4.527

390. Group 1 Automotive Inc., Houston, 383, $4.519

391. Laidlaw International Inc., Naperville, Ill., new to list. $4.483

392. Applied Materials Inc., Santa Clara, Calif., 327, $4.477

393. CInergy Corp., Cincinnati, 160, $4.416

394. Goodrich Corp., Charlotte, N.C., 385, $4.407

395. WPS Resources Corp., Green Bay, Wis., 539, $4.403

396. Mutual of Omaha Insurance Cos., Omaha, 374, $4.393

397. Leggett & Platt, Inc., Carthage, Mo., 380, $4.388

398. Roundy's, Milwaukee, 436, $4.383

399. Jones Apparel Group Inc., Bristol, Pa., 375, $4.375

400. Harrah's Entertainment Inc., Las Vegas, NV, 386, $4.364

401. Avaya Inc., Basking Ridge, N.J., 335, $4.338

402. The Charles Schwab Corp., San Francisco, 364, $4.328

403. Kelly Services, Troy, Mich., 378, $4.325

404. Burlington Resources Inc., Houston, 497, $4.311

405. OM Group Inc., Cleveland, 331, $4.297

406. Owens & Minor Inc., Glen Allen, Va., 405, $4.244

407. Liz Claiborne Inc., New York, 429, $4.241

408. Auto-Owners Insurance Group, Lansing, Mich., 445, $4.211

409. Cablevision Systems, Bethpage, N.Y., 400, $4.208

410. AK Steel Holding Corp., Middletown, Ohio, 376, $4.206

411. Hormel Foods Corp., Austin, Minn., 408, $4.200

412. Kerr-McGee, Oklahoma City, 426, $4.191

413. Apache Corp., Houston, 563, $4.190

414. Big Lots Inc., Columbus, Ohio, 413, $4.174

415. Hershey Foods Corp., Hershey, Pa., 390, $4.173

416. The Clorox Co., Oakland, 394, $4.171

417. SLM Corp., Reston, Va., 473, $4.160

418. Phelps Dodge Corp., Phoenix, 428, $4.143

419. MGM Mirage, Las Vegas, 397, $4.140

420. Brunswick Corp., Lake Forest, Ill., 430, $4.129

421. Rockwell Automation Inc., Milwaukee, 409, $4.104

422. Levi Strauss & Co., San Francisco, 389, $4.091

423. Maxtor Corp., Milpitas, Calif., 421, $4.086

424. York International Corp., York, Pa., 417, $4.0761

425. Starbucks Corp., Seattle, 465, $4.0755

426. International Steel Group Inc., Richfield, Ohio, new to list, $4.070

427. Wisconsin Energy Corp., Milwaukee, 426, $4.054

428. The Brink's Co., Richmond, Va., 395, $4.051

429. Level 3 Communications Inc., Broomfield, Colo. 481, $4.026

430. Adolph Coors Co., Golden, Colo. 422, $4.000

431. Collins & Aikman Corp., Troy, Mich., 411, $3.984

432. Pathmark Stores Inc., Carteret, N.J., 406, $3.981

433. Nash Finch Co., Minneapolis, 410, $3.972

434. Qualcomm Inc., San Diego, 489, $3.971

435. CarMax Inc., Glen Allen, Va., new to list, $3.970

436. Triad Hospitals Inc., Plano, Texas, 442, $3.966

437. Terex Corp., Westport, Conn., 522, $3.897

438. Hilton Hotels, Beverly Hills, Calif., 416, $3.853

439. United Stationers Inc., Des Plaines, Ill., 431, $3.848

440. Golden West Financial Corp., Oakland, 425, $3.842

441. Lyondell Chemical, Houston, 467, $3.801

441. Starwood Hotels & Resorts Worldwide Inc., White Plains, N.Y., 412, $3.801

443. Western & Southern Mutual Holding Co., Cinncinati, new to list, $3.795

444. The Timken Co., Canton, Ohio, 566, $3.788

445. Affiliated Computer Services Inc., Dallas, 488, $3.7872

446. OGE Energy Corp, Oklahoma City, new to list, 484, $3.7868

447. Ross Stores Inc., Newark, Calif., 444, $3.786

448. Graybar Electric Co. Inc., St. Louis, 401, $3.783

449. H&R Block Inc., Kansas City, Mo., 462, $3.780

450. Tenneco Automotive Inc., Lake Forest, Ill., 453, $3.766

451. Ecolab Inc., St. Paul, 457, $3.762

452. Borders Group Inc., Ann Arbor, Mich., 446, $3.731

453. Guidant Corp., Indianapolis, 471, $3.717

454. Engelhard Corp., Iselin, N.J., 423, $3.715

455. Host Marriott Corp., Bethesda, Md., 434, $3.712

456. NVR Inc., McLean, Va., 482, $3.687

457. American Axle & Manufacturing Holdings Inc., Detroit, 450, $3.683

458. USG Corp., Chicago, 452, $3.666

459. Bed Bath & Beyond Inc., Union, N.J., 501, $3.665

460. Jefferson-Pilot Corp., Greensboro, N.C., 451, $3.650

461. NTL, New York, new to list, $3.645

462. Universal Health Services Inc., King of Prussia, Pa., 468, $3.644

463. ServiceMaster, Downers Grove, Ill., 437, $3.634

464. W.R. Berkey, Greenwich, Conn., 562, $3.630

465. Stryker Corp., Kalamazoo, Mich., 493, $3.625

466. Regions Financial Corp., Birmingham, Ala., 420, $3.618

467. C. H. Robinson Worldwide Inc., Eden Prairie, Minn., 464, $3.614

468. Smith International Inc., Houston, 480, $3.595

469. Fisher Scientific International Inc., Hampton, N.H., 472, $3.564

470. Advance Auto Parts Inc., Roanoke, Va., 466, $3.546

471. Sealed Air Corp., Saddle Brook, N.J., 475, $3.532

472. Interstate Bakeries Corp., Kansas City, Mo., 443, $3.526

473. Advanced Micro Devices Inc., Sunnyvale, Calif., 535, $3.519

474. Cooper Tire & Rubber Co., Findlay, Ohio, 459, $3.514

475. Omnicare Inc., Covington, Ky., 548, $3.499

476. AGCO Corp., Duluth, Ga., 502, $3.495

477. Reebok International Ltd., Canton, Mass., 483, $3.485

478. Boston Scientific Corp., Natick, Mass., 503, $3.476

479. Kindred Healthcare Inc., Louisville, 463, $3.456

480. Telephone and Data Systems Inc., Chicago, 495, $3.445

481. The Ryland Group Inc., Calabasas, Calif., 510, $3.444

482. SCANA Corp., Columbia, SC, 499, $3.416

483. LandAmerica Financial Group Inc., Richmond, Va., 555, $3.406

484. Gateway Inc., Poway, Calif., 387, $3.402

485. Peter Kiewit Sons' Inc., Omaha, 432, $3.375

486. American Financial Group Inc., Cincinnati, 424, $3.366

487. Henry Schein Inc., Melville, N.Y., 516, $3.354

488. The Shaw Group Inc., Baton Rouge, 479, $3.307

489. Comerica Inc., Detroit, 433, $3.299

490. Wesco International Inc., Pittsburgh, 461, $3.287

491. Old Republic International Corp., Chicago, 525, $3.286

492. Brinker International Inc., Dallas, 507, $3.285

493. Equity Office Properties Trust, Chicago, 448, $3.280

494. Allmerica Financial Corp., Worcester, Mass., 456, $3.264

495. Armstrong Holdings Inc., Lancaster, Pa., 478, $3.259

496. Spartan Stores Inc., Grand Rapids, Mich., 447, $3.256

497. Hughes Supply Inc., Orlando, 487, $3.253

498. PepsiAmericas Inc., Minneapolis, 470, $3.237

499. The New York Times Co., New York, 486, $3.227

500. Newmont Mining Corp., Denver, 616, $3.214

[hellenes]

I'll take you up on that challenge - after all it's not up to me to ban anyone from this board.

So we are talking about two propositions:

1. Jewish financiers are behind Stone's portrayal of Alexander as a bisexual
2. Jews control most of American big business.

Ad 1.
Go ahead, Hellenes. State you case.

Ad 2.
Instead of suggestions, I would like to see some hard evidence. To help you focus I have copied the Fortune 500 specially for you. Please enlighten us about Jewish control over the majority of the following firms?

Fortune 500 2004

1. Wal-Mart Stores Inc., Bentonville, Ark., 1, $258.681

2. Exxon Mobil Corp., Irving, Texas, 3, $213.199

3. General Motors Corp., Detroit, 2, $195.645

4. Ford Motor Co., Dearborn, Mich., 4, $164.496

5. General Electric Co., Fairfield, Conn., 5, $134.187

6. ChevronTexaco Corp., San Ramon, Calif., 7, $112.937

7. ConocoPhillips, Houston, 12, $99.468

8. Citigroup Inc., New York, 6, $94.713

9. International Business Machines Corp., Armonk, N.Y., 8, $89.131

10. American International Group, Inc., New York, 9, $81.300

11. Hewlett-Packard Co., Palo Alto, Calif., 14, $73.061

12. Verizon Communications Inc., New York, 10, $67.752

13. The Home Depot Inc., Atlanta, 13, $64.816

14. Berkshire Hathaway Inc., Omaha, 28, $63.859

15. Altria Group Inc., New York, 11, $60.704

16. McKesson Corp., San Francisco, 20, $57.129

17. Cardinal Health Inc., Dublin, Ohio, 19, $56.830

18. State Farm Insurance Cos., Bloomington, Ill., 21, $56.065

19. The Kroger Co., Cincinnati, 18, $53.791

20. Fannie Mae, Washington, D.C., 16, $53.767

21. The Boeing Co., Chicago, 15, $50.485

22. AmerisourceBergen Corp., Chesterbrook, Pa., 24, $49.657

23. Target Corp., Minneapolis, 25, $48.163

24. Bank of America Corp., Charlotte, N.C., 23, $48.065

25. Pfizer Inc., New York, 37, $45.950

26. J.P. Morgan Chase & Co., New York, 26, $44.363

27. Time Warner Inc., New York, 29, $43.877

28. The Procter & Gamble Co., Cincinnati, 31, $43.377

29. Costco Wholesale Corp., Issaquah, Wash., 33, $42.546

30. Johnson & Johnson, New Brunswick, N.J., 34, $41.862

31. Dell Inc., Round Rock, Texas, 36, $41.444

32. Sears Roebuck and Co., Hoffman Estates, Ill., 30, $41.124

33. SBC Communications Inc., San Antonio, 27, $40.843

34. Valero Energy Corp, San Antonio, 55, $37.969

35. Marathon Oil Corp., Houston, 52, $37.137

36. MetLife Inc., New York, 38, $36.261

37. Safeway Inc., Pleasanton, Calif., 41, $35.553

38. Albertson's Inc., Boise, 35, $35.436

39. Morgan Stanley, New York, 40, $34.933

40. AT&T, Bedminster, N.J., 22, $34.529

41. Medco Health Solutions, Franklin Lakes, N.J., new to list, $34.265

42. United Parcel Service Inc., Atlanta, 43, $33.485

43. J.C. Penney Co. Inc., Plano, Texas, 42, $32.923

44. The Dow Chemical Co., Midland, Mich., 51, $32.632

45. Walgreen Co., Deerfield, Ill., 45, $32.505

46. Microsoft Corp., Redmond, Wash., 47, $32.187

47. The Allstate Corp., Northbrook, Ill., 44, $32.149

48. Lockheed Martin Corp., Bethesda, Md., 56, $31.844

49. Wells Fargo & Co., San Francisco, 46, $31.800

50. Lowe's Cos. Inc., Mooresville, N.C., 60, $31.263

51. United Technologies Corp., Hartford, Conn., 49, $31.034

52. Archer-Daniels-Midland Co., Decatur, Ill., 71, $30.708

53. Intel Corp., Santa Clara, Calif., 58, $30.141

54. UnitedHealth Group Inc., Minnetonka, Minn., 63, $28.823

55. Northrop Grumman Corp., Los Angeles, 99, $28.686

56. Delphi Corp., Troy, Mich., 53, $28.096

57. Prudential Financial Inc., Newark, N.J., 57, $27.907

58. Merrill Lynch & Co. Inc., New York, 48, $27.745

59. E.I. du Pont de Nemours, Wilmington, Del., 67, $27.730

60. The Walt Disney Co., Burbank, Calif., 61, $27.061

61. Motorola Inc., Schaumburg, Ill., 59, $27.058

62. PepsiCo Inc., Purchase, N.Y., 62, $26.971

63. CVS Corp., Woonsocket, R.I., 68, $26.588

64. Viacom Inc., New York, 66, $26.585

65. Sprint Corp., Overland Park, Kan., 54, $26.202

66. Sysco Corp., Houston, 73, $26.140

67. Kmart Holding Corp., Troy, Mich., 39, $26.032

68. TIAA-CREF, New York, 89, $26.016

69. American Express Co., New York, 69, $25.866

70. New York Life Insurance Co., New York, 65, $25.700

71. International Paper Co., Stamford, Conn., 64, $25.200

72. Tyson Foods Inc., Springdale, Ark., 72, $24.549

73. Wachovia Corp., Charlotte, N.C., 70, $24.474

74. Goldman Sachs Group Inc., New York, 75, $23.623

75. Duke Energy, Charlotte, N.C., 118, $23.483

76. Honeywell International Inc., Morristown, N.J., 78, $23.103

77. Caterpillar Inc., Peoria, Ill., 85, $22.763

78. Best Buy Co. Inc., Richfield, Minn., 91, $22.673

79. Johnson Controls Inc., Milwaukee, 86, $22.646

80. BellSouth Corp., Atlanta, 77, $22.635

81. Ingram Micro Inc., Santa Ana, Calif., 76, $22.613

82. FedEx Corp., Memphis, 83, $22.487

83. Merck & Co. Inc., Whitehouse Station, N.J., 17, $22.486

84. ConAgra Foods Inc. Omaha, 50, $22.053

85. HCA Inc, Nashville, 90, $21.808

86. Alcoa Inc., Pittsburgh, 82, $21.728

87. Electronic Data Systems, Plano, Texas, 80, $21.596

88. Bank One Corp., Chicago, 79, $21.454

89. Comcast Corp., Philadelphia, 157, $21.263

90. Massachusetts Mutual Life Insurance Co., Springfield, Mass., 84, $21.076

91. The Coca-Cola Co., Atlanta, 92, $21.044

92. Bristol-Myers Squibb Co., New York, 98, $20.671

93. WellPoint Health Networks Inc., Thousand Oaks, Calif., 103, $20.360

94. Georgia-Pacific Corp., Atlanta, 74, $20.255

95. Weyerhaeuser Co., Federal Way, Wash., 96, $19.873

96. Abbott Laboratories, Abbott Park, Ill., 100, $19.681

97. AutoNation Inc., Fort Lauderdale, 93, $19.381

98. The Williams Cos. Inc., Tulsa, 196, $19.246

99. Supervalu Inc., Eden Prairie, Minn., 81, $19.160

100. Cisco Systems Inc., San Jose, Calif., 95, $18.878

101. CIGNA Corp., Philadelphia, 87, $18.808

102. Hartford Financial Services Group Inc., Hartford, Conn., 114, $18.733

103. Washington Mutual Inc., Seattle, 94, $18.629

104. Sara Lee Corp., Chicago, 101, $18.291

105. 3M, St. Paul, 110, $18.232

106. Cendant Corp., New York, 133, $18.192

107. Raytheon Co., Waltham, Mass., 105, $18.109

108. Aetna Inc., Hartford, Conn., 88, $17.976.40

109. Visteon Corp., Dearborn, Mich., 97, $17.660

110. AMR Corp., Fort Worth, 104, $17.440

111. Tech Data Corp., Clearwater, Fla., 117, $17.406

112. Coca-Cola Enterprises Inc., Atlanta, 108, $17.330

113. Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc., New York, 109, $17.287

114. McDonald's Corp., Oak Brook, Ill., 124, $17.141

115. Northwestern Mutual Life Insurance Co., Milwaukee, 113, $17.060

116. Liberty Mutual Insurance Group, Boston, 129, $16.914

117. Publix Super Markets Inc., Lakeland, Fla., 112, $16.848

118. Nationwide Mutual Insurance Co., Columbus, Ohio, 111, $16.803

119. Anthem Inc., Indianapolis, 146, $16.771

120. AT&T Wireless Services Inc., Redmond, Wash., 119, $16.695

121. General Dynamics Corp., Falls Church, Va., 137, $16.617

122. Halliburton Co., Houston, 153, $16.271

123. Sunoco Inc., Philadelphia, 154, $15.930

124. The Gap Inc., San Francisco, 130, $15.854

125. Wyeth, Madison, N.J., 128, $15.851

126. Exelon Corp., Chicago, 126, $15.812

127. Loews Corp., New York, 107, $15.810

128. Rite Aid Corp., Camp Hill, Pa., 125, $15.801

129. Lear Corp., Southfield, Mich., 131, $15.747

130. Xerox Corp., Stamford, Conn., 116, $15.701

131. Deere & Co., Moline, Ill., 135, $15.535

132. American Electric Power Co. Inc., Columbus, Ohio, 120, $15.441

133. U.S. Bancorp, Minneapolis, 123, $15.354

134. Federated Department Stores Inc., Cincinnati, 122, $15.264

135. Travelers Property Casualty Corp., Hartford, Conn., new to list, $15.139

136. Qwest Communications International Inc., Denver, 121, $14.936

137. Goodyear Tire & Rubber Co., Akron, Ohio, 139, $14.741

138. Tenet Healthcare Corp., Santa Barbara, Calif., 136, $14.582

139. Amerada Hess Corp., New York, 162, $14.408

140. FleetBoston Financial Corp., Boston, 115, $14.362

141. Kimberly-Clark Corp., Irving, Texas, 143, $14.348

142. Anheuser-Busch Cos. Inc., St. Louis, 142, $14.147

143. AdvancePCS Inc., Irving, Texas, 148, $14.111

144. Emerson Electric Co., St. Louis, 138, $13.999

145. UAL Corp., Elk Grove Township, Ill., 132, $13.724

146. Countrywide Financial Corp., Calabasas, Calif., 209, $13.660

147. The May Department Stores Co., St. Louis, 144, $13.343

148. The TJX Cos. Inc., Framingham, Mass., 161, $13.328

149. Eastman Kodak Co., Rochester, N.Y., 150, $13.317

150. Delta Air Lines Inc., Atlanta, 145, $13.303

151. Express Scripts Inc., Maryland Heights, Mo., 147, $13.296

152. Staples Inc., Framingham, Mass., 165, $13.181

153. Union Pacific Corp., Omaha, 156, $12.792

154. El Paso Corp., Houston, 152, $12.653

155. Plains All American Pipeline, L.P., Houston, 221, $12.590

156. Eli Lilly and Co., Indianapolis, 172, $12.583

157. Office Depot Inc., Delray Beach, Fla., 166, $12.359

158. FirstEnergy Corp., Akron, Ohio, 159, $12.318

159. Humana Inc., Louisville, 169, $12.226

160. Manpower Inc., Milwaukee, 176, $12.185

161. Whirlpool Corp., Benton Harbor, Mich., 173, $12.176

162. Winn-Dixie Stores Inc., Jacksonville, Fla., 149, $12.168

163. Edison International, Rosemead, Calif., 163, $12.156

164. Dominion Resources Inc., Richmond, Va., 184, $12.078

165. The Progressive Corp., Mayfield Village, Ohio, 197, $11.892

166. Reliant Resources Inc., Houston, 164, $11.707

167. Solectron Corp., Milpitas, Calif., 158, $11.700

168. MBNA Corp., Wilmington, Del., 179, $11.684

169. Marsh & McLennan Cos. Inc., New York, 178, $11.588

170. Waste Management Inc., Houston, 171, $11.574

171. Toys "R" Us Inc., Wayne, N.J., 168, $11.566

172. AFLAC, Columbus, Ga., 183, $11.447

173. Sun Microsystems Inc., Santa Clara, Calif., 155, $11.434

174. Chubb Corp., Warren, N.J., 203, $11.394

175. Computer Sciences Corp., El Segundo, Calif., 167, $11.347

176. Public Service Enterprise Group Inc., Newark, N.J., 211, $11.340

177. TexasU Corp., Dallas, 134, $11.325

178. The Southern Co., Atlanta, 177, $11.251

179. PG&E Corp., San Francisco, 140, $11.221

180. Masco Corp., Taylor, Mich., 195, $11.134

181. Health Net Inc., Woodland Hills, Calif., 185, $11.063

182. PacifiCare Health Systems Inc., Cypress, Calif., 170, $11.009

183. Nextel Communications Inc., Reston, Va., 216, $10.820

184. Nike Inc., Beaverton, Ore., 188, $10.697

185. United Services Automobile Association, San Antonio, 199, $10.593

186. General Mills Inc., Minneapolis, 235, $10.506

187. UnumProvident Corp., Chattanooga, Tenn., 192, $10.400

188. Sanmina-SCI Corp., San Jose, Calif., 214, $10.361

189. Kohl's Corp., Menomonee Falls, Wis., 204, $10.282

190. The Pepsi Bottling Group Inc., Somers, N.Y., 200, $10.265

191. Illinois Tool Works Inc., Glenview, Ill., 189, $10.138

192. John Hancock Financial Services Inc., Boston, 208, $10.071

193. Dana Corp., Toledo, Ohio, 182, $10.071

194. Textron Inc., Providence 174, $10.028

195. Circuit City Stores Inc., Richmond, Va., 151, $9.954

196. Colgate-Palmolive Co., New York, 198, $9.903

197. Texas Instruments Inc., Dallas, 223, $9.834

198. Consolidated Edison Inc., New York, 217, $9.827

199. Aon Corp., Chicago, 212, $9.823

200. Capital One Financial Corp., McLean, Va., 191, $9.784

201. CenterPoint Energy Inc., Houston, 236, $9.772

202. Aramark Corp., Philadelphia, 213, $9.712.10

203. Constellation Energy Group Inc., Baltimore, 352, $9.703

204. The AES Corp., Arlington, Va., 181, $9.649

205. FPL Group Inc., Juno Beach, Fla., 226, $9.630

206. National City Corp., Cleveland, 215, $9.594

207. Northwest Airlines Corp., Eagan, Minn., 193, $9.510

208. Oracle Corp., Redwood City, Calif., 190, $9.475

209. United States Steel Corp., Pittsburgh, 264, $9.458

210. Burlington Northern Santa Fe Corp., Fort Worth, 205, $9.413

211. Principal Financial Group Inc., Des Moines, 210, $9.404

212. CHS Inc., Inver Grove Heights, Minn., 237, $9.399

213. H.J. Heinz Co., Pittsburgh, 194, $9.328

214. Occidental Petroleum Corp., Los Angeles, 252, $9.326

215. Gillette Co., Boston, 218, $9.252

216. Marriott International Inc., Bethesda, Md., 175, $9.198

217. Entergy Corp., New Orleans, 224, $9.195

218. Dean Foods Co., Dallas, 201, $9.185

219. Centex Corp., Dallas, 241, $9.117

220. Baxter International, Deerfield, Ill., 222, $9.087

221. Caremark Rx Inc., Nashville, 267, $9.067

222. Pulte Homes Inc., Bloomfield Hills, Mich., 250, $9.049

223. Avnet Inc., Phoenix, 206, $9.048

224. Progress Energy Inc., Raleigh, N.C., 228, $9.027

225. Guardian Life Insurance Co. of America, New York, 232, $9.022

226. Calpine Corp., San Jose, Calif., 246, $8.997

227. The St. Paul Cos. Inc., St. Paul, 207, $8.958

228. Limited Brands Inc., Columbus, Ohio, 202, $8.934

229. Clear Channel Communications Inc., San Antonio, 219, $8.931

230. Lennar Corp., Miami 256, $8.908

231. Continental Airlines Inc., Houston, 220, $8.870

232. Fluor, Aliso Viejo, Calif., 186, $8.836

233. Kellogg Co., Battle Creek, Mich., 225, $8.812

234. Premcor Inc., Old Greenwich, Conn., 269, $8.804

235. United Auto Group Inc., Bloomfield Hills, Mich., 244, $8.804

236. PPG Industries Inc., Pittsburgh, 233, $8.756

237. Tesoro Petroleum Corp., San Antonio, 263, $8.718

238. Arrow Electronics, Inc, Melville, N.Y., 245, $8.679

239. Omnicom Group Inc., New York, 247, $8.621

240. American Standard Cos. Inc., Piscataway, N.J., 238, $8.568

241. D.R. Horton Inc., Arlington, Texas, 271, $8.552

242. First Data Corp., Greenwood Village, Colo. 242, $8.544

243. Lucent Technologies Inc., Murray Hill, N.J., 141, $8.470

244. Genuine Parts Co., Atlanta, 227, $8.449

245. Yum! Brands Inc., Louisville, 240, $8.380

246. Amgen Inc., Thousand Oaks, Calif., 305, $8.356

247. Schering-Plough Corp., Kenilworth, N.J., 187, $8.334

248. Boise Cascade Corp., Boise, 254, $8.245

249. TransMontaigne Inc., Denver, new to list, $8.241

250. Paccar Inc., Bellevue, Wash., 257, $8.195

251. Alltel Corp., Little Rock, 234, $8.190

252. Ashland Inc., Covington, Ky., 239, $8.080

253. Eaton Corp., Cleveland, 258, $8.061

254. Xcel Energy Inc., Minneapolis, 180, $7.939

255. Smurfit-Stone Container Corp., Chicago, 230, $7.914

256. Smithfield Foods, Smithfield, Va., 255, $7.905

257. Sempra Energy, San Diego, Calif., 291, $7.887

258. Dillard's Inc., Little Rock, 229, $7.864

259. CSX, Jacksonville, Fla., 231, $7.793

260. ArvinMeritor Inc., Troy, Mich., 266, $7.788

261. Newell Rubbermaid Inc., Alpharetta, Ga., 251, $7.750

262. Fidelity National Financial Inc., Jacksonville, Fla., 326, $7.715

263. Medtronic Inc., Minneapolis, 276, $7.665

264. Sonic Automotive, Charlotte, N.C., 253, $7.598

265. MeadWestvaco Corp., Stamford, Conn., 249, $7.553

266. The Bear Stearns Cos. Inc., New York, 265, $7.395

267. Safeco Corp., Seattle, 260, $7.358

268. Devon Energy Corp., Oklahoma City, 369, $7.352

269. Navistar International Corp., Warrenville, Ill., 274, $7.340

270. Pepco Holdings Inc., Washington, D.C., 377, $7.271

271. Automatic Data Processing Inc., Roseland, N.J., 261, $7.147

272. SunTrust Banks Inc., Atlanta, 248, $7.071

273. DTE Energy Co., Detroit, 270, $7.062

274. Keyspan Corp., Brooklyn, N.Y., 290, $6.915

275. Avon Products Inc., New York, 280, $6.876

276. US Airways Group Inc., Arlington, Va., 262, $6.846

277. BJ's Wholesale Club Inc., Natick, Mass., 295, $6.724

278. Gannett Co. Inc., McLean, Va., 275, $6.711

279. Farmland Industries Inc., Kansas City, Mo., 243, $6.703

280. Campbell Soup Co., Camden, N.J., 286, $6.678

281. Dollar General Corp., Goodlettsville, Tenn., 289, $6.665

282. Crown Holdings Inc., Philadelphia, 268, $6.630

283. Kinder Morgan Energy Partners, L.P., Houston, new to list, $6.624

284. Thrivent Financial for Lutherans, Minneapolis, 302, $6.575

285. Unocal Corp., El Segundo, Calif., 316, $6.539

286. Nordstrom Inc., Seattle, 293, $6.4912

287. Fifth Third Bancorp, Cinncinnati, 278, $6.486

288. Norfolk Southern Corp., Norfolk, Va., 279, $6.468

289. Science Applications International Corp., San Diego, Calif., 288, $6.457

290. Rohm and Haas Co., Philadelphia, 301, $6.421

291. Parker-Hannifin Corp., Cleveland, 283, $6.410

292. NiSource Inc., Merrillville, Ind., 273, $6.401

293. InterActive Corp., New York, 319, $6.338

294. The Bank of New York Co. Inc., New York, 299, $6.336

295. Air Products & Chemicals, Inc, Allentown, Pa., 311, $6.297

296. Cummins, Columbus, Ind., 296, $6.296

297. Nucor, Charlotte, N.C., 342, $6.266

298. BB&T Corp., Winston-Salem, N.C., 287, $6.244

299. EMC Corp., Hopkinton, Mass., 308, $6.237

300. The First American Corp., Santa Ana, Calif., 351, $6.214

301. Apple Computer Inc., Cupertino, Calif., 300, $6.207

302. Owens-Illinois, Toledo, Ohio, 298, $6.158

303. Interpublic Group of Cos. Inc., New York, 282, $6.114

304. Northeast Utilities, Berlin, Conn., 330, $6.065

305. Agilent Technologies Inc., Palo Alto, Calif., 292, $6.056

306. Saks, Inc., Birmingham, Ala., 294, $6.055

307. CMS Energy Corp., Jackson, Mich., 272, $6.017

308. Land O'Lakes Inc., Arden Hills, Minn., 297, $5.978

309. PN.C. Financial Services Group Inc., Pittsburgh, 277, $5.969

310. Southwest Airlines Co., Dallas, 306, $5.937

311. Fortune Brands, Lincolnshire, Ill., 313, $5.913

312. Unisys Corp., Blue Bell, Pa., 303, $5.911

313. American Family Ins. Group, Madison, Wis., 323, $5.895

314. Mirant Corp., Atlanta, 259, $5.863

315. KB Home, Los Angeles, 332, $5.851

316. Dynegy Inc., Houston, 336, $5.813

317. Eastman Chemical, Kingsport, Tenn., 315, $5.800

318. Cox Communications Inc., Atlanta, 329, $5.759

319. KeyCorp, Cleveland, 285, $5.730

320. ITT Industries Inc., White Plains, N.Y., 333, $5.627

321. Praxair Inc., Danbury, Conn., 324, $5.613

322. N.C.R Corp., Dayton, Ohio, 304, $5.598

323. Tribune Co., Chicago, 312, $5.595

324. PPL Corp., Allentown, Pa., 309, $5.587

325. Barnes & Noble Inc., New York, 318, $5.585

326. Allied Waste Industries, Scottsdale, Ariz., 307, $5.583

327. Echostar Communications Corp., Englewood, Colo. 341, $5.551

328. Federal-Mogul Corp., Southfield, Mich., 310, $5.546

329. Performance Food Group Co., Richmond, Va., 366, $5.520

330. State Street Corp., Boston, 340, $5.463

331. AutoZone Inc., Memphis, 314, $5.457

332. Oxford Health Plans Inc., Trumbull, Conn., 334, $5.452

333. The Sherwin-Williams Co., Cleveland, 321, $5.408

334. Baker Hughes Inc., Houston, 320, $5.391

335. WellChoice Inc., New York, 325, $5.383

336. Enterprise Products Partners, L.P., Houston, 438, $5.346

337. Autoliv Inc., Ogden, Utah, 365, $5.301

338. Danaher, Washington, D.C., 357, $5.294

339. Lincoln National Corp., Philadelphia, 356, $5.284

340. Murphy Oil Corp., El Dorado, Ark., 402, $5.275

341. R.J. Reynolds Tobacco Holdings Inc., Winston-Salem, N.C., 281, $5.267

342. Amazon.com Inc., Seattle, 407, $5.264

343. VF Corp., Greensboro, N.C., 322, $5.208

344. SPX Corp., Charlotte, N.C., 328, $5.130

345. Anadarko Petroleum Corp., The Woodlands, Texas, 414, $5.122

346. The Estee Lauder Cos. Inc., New York, 349, $5.118

347. CNF Inc., Palo Alto, Calif., 347, $5.104

348. L-3 Communications Holdings Inc., New York, 398, $5.062

349. Mohawk Industries Inc., Calhoun, Ga., 361, $5.005

350. Owens Corning, Toledo, Ohio, 338, $4.996

351. Ball Corp., Broomfield, Colo. 415, $4.977

352. Mattel Inc., El Segundo, Calif., 337, $4.960

353. Monsanto Co., St. Louis, new to list, $4.936

354. Energy East Corp., Albany, N.Y., 399, $4.919

355. Harley-Davidson Inc., Milwaukee, 392, $4.904

356. The McGraw-Hill Cos. Inc., New York, 343, $4.839

357. Asbury Automotive Group Inc., Stamford, Conn., 360, $4.835

358. Charter Communications Inc., St. Louis, 362, $4.819

359. Avery Dennison Corp., Pasadena, Calif., 384, $4.807

360. Ryder System Inc., Miami 345, $4.802

361. Maytag Corp., Newton, Iowa, 344, $4.792

362. R.R. Donnelley & Sons Co., Chicago, 348, $4.787

363. Foot Locker Inc., New York, 363, $4.779

364. Lexmark International Inc., Lexington, Ky., 373, $4.755

365. Family Dollar Stores Inc., Matthews, N.C., 388, $4.750

366. Quest Diagnostics Inc., Teterboro, N.J., 391, $4.738

367. Jabil Circuit Inc., St. Petersburg, Fla., 441, $4.730

368. Erie Insurance Group, Erie, Pa., 454, $4.717

369. Ikon Office Solutions Inc., Malvern, Pa., 339, $4.711

370. Conseco Inc., Carmel, Ind., 284, $4.710

371. CIT Group Inc., Livingston, N.J., 317, $4.677

372. Temple-Inland Inc., Austin, Texas, 353, $4.671

373. Caesars Entertainment, Las Vegas, NV, 354, $4.669

374. Pacific LifeCorp, Newport Beach, Calif., 419, $4.6687

375. W.W. Grainger Inc., Lake Forest, Ill., 355, $4.667

376. CDW Corp., Vernon Hills, Ill., 381, $4.665

377. Darden Restaurants Inc., Orlando, 372, $4.655

378. RadioShack Corp., Fort Worth, 358, $4.649

379. Jacobs Engineering Group Inc., Pasadena, Calif., 359, $4.616

380. Dole Food Co. Inc., Westlake Village, Calif., 371, $4.608

381. The Black & Decker Corp., Towson, Md., 370, $4.602

382. Ameren Corp., St. Louis, 418, $4.593

383. Pitney Bowes Inc., Stamford, Conn., 368, $4.577

384. Dover Corp., New York, 382, $4.559

385. Mellon Financial Corp., Pittsburgh, 350, $4.550

386. Coventry Health Care Inc., Bethesda, Md., 439, $4.535

387. Emcor Group Inc., Norwalk, Conn., 404, $4.5346

388. Becton, Dickinson and Co., Franklin Lakes, N.J., 396, $4.528

389. Longs Drug Stores Corp., Walnut Creek, Calif., 367, $4.527

390. Group 1 Automotive Inc., Houston, 383, $4.519

391. Laidlaw International Inc., Naperville, Ill., new to list. $4.483

392. Applied Materials Inc., Santa Clara, Calif., 327, $4.477

393. CInergy Corp., Cincinnati, 160, $4.416

394. Goodrich Corp., Charlotte, N.C., 385, $4.407

395. WPS Resources Corp., Green Bay, Wis., 539, $4.403

396. Mutual of Omaha Insurance Cos., Omaha, 374, $4.393

397. Leggett & Platt, Inc., Carthage, Mo., 380, $4.388

398. Roundy's, Milwaukee, 436, $4.383

399. Jones Apparel Group Inc., Bristol, Pa., 375, $4.375

400. Harrah's Entertainment Inc., Las Vegas, NV, 386, $4.364

401. Avaya Inc., Basking Ridge, N.J., 335, $4.338

402. The Charles Schwab Corp., San Francisco, 364, $4.328

403. Kelly Services, Troy, Mich., 378, $4.325

404. Burlington Resources Inc., Houston, 497, $4.311

405. OM Group Inc., Cleveland, 331, $4.297

406. Owens & Minor Inc., Glen Allen, Va., 405, $4.244

407. Liz Claiborne Inc., New York, 429, $4.241

408. Auto-Owners Insurance Group, Lansing, Mich., 445, $4.211

409. Cablevision Systems, Bethpage, N.Y., 400, $4.208

410. AK Steel Holding Corp., Middletown, Ohio, 376, $4.206

411. Hormel Foods Corp., Austin, Minn., 408, $4.200

412. Kerr-McGee, Oklahoma City, 426, $4.191

413. Apache Corp., Houston, 563, $4.190

414. Big Lots Inc., Columbus, Ohio, 413, $4.174

415. Hershey Foods Corp., Hershey, Pa., 390, $4.173

416. The Clorox Co., Oakland, 394, $4.171

417. SLM Corp., Reston, Va., 473, $4.160

418. Phelps Dodge Corp., Phoenix, 428, $4.143

419. MGM Mirage, Las Vegas, 397, $4.140

420. Brunswick Corp., Lake Forest, Ill., 430, $4.129

421. Rockwell Automation Inc., Milwaukee, 409, $4.104

422. Levi Strauss & Co., San Francisco, 389, $4.091

423. Maxtor Corp., Milpitas, Calif., 421, $4.086

424. York International Corp., York, Pa., 417, $4.0761

425. Starbucks Corp., Seattle, 465, $4.0755

426. International Steel Group Inc., Richfield, Ohio, new to list, $4.070

427. Wisconsin Energy Corp., Milwaukee, 426, $4.054

428. The Brink's Co., Richmond, Va., 395, $4.051

429. Level 3 Communications Inc., Broomfield, Colo. 481, $4.026

430. Adolph Coors Co., Golden, Colo. 422, $4.000

431. Collins & Aikman Corp., Troy, Mich., 411, $3.984

432. Pathmark Stores Inc., Carteret, N.J., 406, $3.981

433. Nash Finch Co., Minneapolis, 410, $3.972

434. Qualcomm Inc., San Diego, 489, $3.971

435. CarMax Inc., Glen Allen, Va., new to list, $3.970

436. Triad Hospitals Inc., Plano, Texas, 442, $3.966

437. Terex Corp., Westport, Conn., 522, $3.897

438. Hilton Hotels, Beverly Hills, Calif., 416, $3.853

439. United Stationers Inc., Des Plaines, Ill., 431, $3.848

440. Golden West Financial Corp., Oakland, 425, $3.842

441. Lyondell Chemical, Houston, 467, $3.801

441. Starwood Hotels & Resorts Worldwide Inc., White Plains, N.Y., 412, $3.801

443. Western & Southern Mutual Holding Co., Cinncinati, new to list, $3.795

444. The Timken Co., Canton, Ohio, 566, $3.788

445. Affiliated Computer Services Inc., Dallas, 488, $3.7872

446. OGE Energy Corp, Oklahoma City, new to list, 484, $3.7868

447. Ross Stores Inc., Newark, Calif., 444, $3.786

448. Graybar Electric Co. Inc., St. Louis, 401, $3.783

449. H&R Block Inc., Kansas City, Mo., 462, $3.780

450. Tenneco Automotive Inc., Lake Forest, Ill., 453, $3.766

451. Ecolab Inc., St. Paul, 457, $3.762

452. Borders Group Inc., Ann Arbor, Mich., 446, $3.731

453. Guidant Corp., Indianapolis, 471, $3.717

454. Engelhard Corp., Iselin, N.J., 423, $3.715

455. Host Marriott Corp., Bethesda, Md., 434, $3.712

456. NVR Inc., McLean, Va., 482, $3.687

457. American Axle & Manufacturing Holdings Inc., Detroit, 450, $3.683

458. USG Corp., Chicago, 452, $3.666

459. Bed Bath & Beyond Inc., Union, N.J., 501, $3.665

460. Jefferson-Pilot Corp., Greensboro, N.C., 451, $3.650

461. NTL, New York, new to list, $3.645

462. Universal Health Services Inc., King of Prussia, Pa., 468, $3.644

463. ServiceMaster, Downers Grove, Ill., 437, $3.634

464. W.R. Berkey, Greenwich, Conn., 562, $3.630

465. Stryker Corp., Kalamazoo, Mich., 493, $3.625

466. Regions Financial Corp., Birmingham, Ala., 420, $3.618

467. C. H. Robinson Worldwide Inc., Eden Prairie, Minn., 464, $3.614

468. Smith International Inc., Houston, 480, $3.595

469. Fisher Scientific International Inc., Hampton, N.H., 472, $3.564

470. Advance Auto Parts Inc., Roanoke, Va., 466, $3.546

471. Sealed Air Corp., Saddle Brook, N.J., 475, $3.532

472. Interstate Bakeries Corp., Kansas City, Mo., 443, $3.526

473. Advanced Micro Devices Inc., Sunnyvale, Calif., 535, $3.519

474. Cooper Tire & Rubber Co., Findlay, Ohio, 459, $3.514

475. Omnicare Inc., Covington, Ky., 548, $3.499

476. AGCO Corp., Duluth, Ga., 502, $3.495

477. Reebok International Ltd., Canton, Mass., 483, $3.485

478. Boston Scientific Corp., Natick, Mass., 503, $3.476

479. Kindred Healthcare Inc., Louisville, 463, $3.456

480. Telephone and Data Systems Inc., Chicago, 495, $3.445

481. The Ryland Group Inc., Calabasas, Calif., 510, $3.444

482. SCANA Corp., Columbia, SC, 499, $3.416

483. LandAmerica Financial Group Inc., Richmond, Va., 555, $3.406

484. Gateway Inc., Poway, Calif., 387, $3.402

485. Peter Kiewit Sons' Inc., Omaha, 432, $3.375

486. American Financial Group Inc., Cincinnati, 424, $3.366

487. Henry Schein Inc., Melville, N.Y., 516, $3.354

488. The Shaw Group Inc., Baton Rouge, 479, $3.307

489. Comerica Inc., Detroit, 433, $3.299

490. Wesco International Inc., Pittsburgh, 461, $3.287

491. Old Republic International Corp., Chicago, 525, $3.286

492. Brinker International Inc., Dallas, 507, $3.285

493. Equity Office Properties Trust, Chicago, 448, $3.280

494. Allmerica Financial Corp., Worcester, Mass., 456, $3.264

495. Armstrong Holdings Inc., Lancaster, Pa., 478, $3.259

496. Spartan Stores Inc., Grand Rapids, Mich., 447, $3.256

497. Hughes Supply Inc., Orlando, 487, $3.253

498. PepsiAmericas Inc., Minneapolis, 470, $3.237

499. The New York Times Co., New York, 486, $3.227

500. Newmont Mining Corp., Denver, 616, $3.214

Well first you state that ill be banned from the forum if i ask these questions now you challenge me without even answering the questions themself...
The bottom line is that you have your position and i have mine we will be judged by others who read uor posts...

Hellenes

[Adrian II]

Well first you state that ill be banned from the forum if i ask these questions (..)Yes, because stating that 'the Jews' control U.S. big business is 'knowingly false and/or defamatory' as under the forum rules.
(..) now you challenge me without even answering the questions themself...I didnt make ridiculous suggestions about Jews, so I don't have to prove anything. As usual with anti-Semites, you don't present any evidence. You just complain about being censored.

[Quid]

Oh Hellenes, did you HAVE to quote that whole list ? ;)

>goes wild scrolling for Switzerland...ahm...Greece...<

Quid

[Pindar]

I went to see the movie. It was....terrible.

Aside from Alexander the Great becoming Alexander the Fabulous, the whole tenure of the film was off. Two simple illustrations: the entire conquest of the Western Persian Empire is covered in a single sentence and it appeared that the battle with Porus was presented as at best a draw instead of the decisive encounter where the Indian forces were smashed and the King was actually captured.

This movie should be avoided, at all costs as an afront to history and one of the most interesting and dynamic figures of the Classical Era.

[Pindar]

Hellenes,

I noted your notion of a Jewish conspiracy. I would like to ask you: how do you define a Jew?

[Pindar]

Hellenes,

I also noted two rather long posts (that seemed for the most part redundant) on Macedonian being Greek. Your central point seemed to be that Ancient Macedonian was a dialect of Greek. This is not an unreasonable position to take. However, it is a mistake and inaccurate to suggest this is the common view within the scholarly community or the only defendable position on the matter. We can engage on this point if you wish, but I think AdrianII is correct in pointing out that many who look to make Macedonian, Greek actually have political motivations.

[Crazed Rabbit]

I think I will agree with Hellenes here, seeing as he has presented the most factual evidence while the other side mainly says "It's common knowledge..." without proving anything.

Though I would like to remind him on one point: Oliver Stone is no republican OR Bush supporter. He's just another crazy hollywood liberal.

Crazed Rabbit

[Slyspy]

That is because everyone other than Greek nationalists have been brainwashed by Slav propaganda apparently. Presumably bankrolled by Jewish conspirators. Well history has told us how best to deal with Slavs and Jews hasn't it?

I do not mind siding with patriots but not right wing nationalists, especially on a subject that doesn't really matter raised by a film that might well be rubbish.

[Colovion]

I'm going to see this movie tonight. I just finished reading Alexander of Maxedon by Harold Lamb and expect to be thoroughly disgusted by this movie. Hopefully, I'll be able to see it as a movie first, and a laughable narrative of his life second.

[Pindar]

I'm going to see this movie tonight. I just finished reading Alexander of Maxedon by Harold Lamb and expect to be thoroughly disgusted by this movie. Hopefully, I'll be able to see it as a movie first, and a laughable narrative of his life second.

Be sure to take along a vomit bag

[Goofball]

I went to see the movie. It was....terrible.
Were the battle scenes any good? I can forgive just about anything in a movie if it at least offers spectacular battle scenes.

[Colovion]

Be sure to take along a vomit bag

I won't need it.

To take my mind off the movie I'll box my car pre-theatre with a friend. It's probably the only way I'll enjoy it.

ps - I'll give a review of the movie when I return, for all those unsure.

[Pindar]

Were the battle scenes any good? I can forgive just about anything in a movie if it at least offers spectacular battle scenes.

no.

[hellenes]

That is because everyone other than Greek nationalists have been brainwashed by Slav propaganda apparently. Presumably bankrolled by Jewish conspirators. Well history has told us how best to deal with Slavs and Jews hasn't it?

I do not mind siding with patriots but not right wing nationalists, especially on a subject that doesn't really matter raised by a film that might well be rubbish.

When some people are useful to support somenone's interests they are "patriots" (afganis against russians,vietnamese against americans etc etc) but when they are not useful even harmful they are "nazis" "right wingers" "terrorists" etc etc (palestinians, iraqis etc etc)...

Hellenes

[Gawain of Orkeny]

So we all pretty much agree that in this adaptation not only does Alexander suck but the entire film does also. ~D

[Pindar]

So we all pretty much agree that in this adaptation not only does Alexander suck but the entire film does also. ~D

I`m guessing that this trash of a film`s only possible rival will be the black Hannibal movie in the works. Alas, such possibilities gone to waste.

[Slyspy]

When some people are useful to support somenone's interests they are "patriots" (afganis against russians,vietnamese against americans etc etc) but when they are not useful even harmful they are "nazis" "right wingers" "terrorists" etc etc (palestinians, iraqis etc etc)...

Hellenes

IMO opinion a patriot is someone who loves his country despite its faults. A nationalist is a patriot who cannot see those faults.

Unfortunately you have indicated some beliefs that if expressed directly would break the rules for both this forum and acceptable society.

[hellenes]

IMO opinion a patriot is someone who loves his country despite its faults. A nationalist is a patriot who cannot see those faults.

Unfortunately you have indicated some beliefs that if expressed directly would break the rules for both this forum and acceptable society.

As i said before this is the modern expression of SELECTIVE DEMOCRACY...
You can say what we want as much as you want...

Hellenes

[Colovion]

ALright, I saw this movie last night.

Wait for it.....


..
I was. NOT. disapointed with the movie (as much as I thought I would be).

I went into the movie basically assuming it would be worse than King Arthur with less true to history than a Simpsons episode. After reading Harold Lamb's biography on Alexander prior to seeing the movie I have to say that I wasn't all that disapointed with the movie. Sure, at Gaugemela the phalanx troops were setup really oddly - like a foot or two of space between each man, but really close to the guy in front. Strangely, later in the movie they had them lock shields and then and only then did the phalanx look as it should. Let's have a general rundown:

*spoilers*

Pros:

1) They got the whole idea of what Alexander wanted correct, how he wanted to have a peaceful commonwealth, with everyone intermingling and in peace - and how he wanted to explore more than he wanted to fight.

2) The battle of Gaugamela was amazing. THe intricacies of how men were fighting was kind of sketchy at times, but it was the largest battle I've seen on the big screen. The camera panned over the whole battlefield from one side ot the other, watching both of the masses of soldiers lining up - it was breathtaking in the dust and the amounts of men that wre depicted. Once the battle began it actually for once showed you just how unconnected from eachother everyone was, and how confusing a battle was back then - especially with all that dust. The basic tactics of the battle was solid and everything that was supposed to happen did happen

3) There were a lot of seemingly small things which happened in the beginning of the movie until Alexander left on his path of conquest that were all basically true - which surprised me that they got some of the smaller things right. It was kind of like watching Lord of the Rings for the first time - amazing when you step back and look at it like a movie, but terrible if you pick it apart, so I dealt on the side of appreciating what they got right, and accepting that it was already 3 hours long as it was.

4) They did show that Alexander was bi-sexual, but his love for Hephaestion and another other men were totally overblown - as if it was his downfall. One part in the movie he kisses some dancer guy and everyone looks at him as if they hadn't just cheered him on to kiss him. It was as if watching him living in our times, instead of in 300BC.

5) They had some great parallels and interesting commentaries about various things imbeded into the plot line and dialogue - so that was pretty interesting. Their usage of Ptolemy (Anthony Hopkins) as a narrator of the movie 40 years after the fact was a nice touch.

Cons:

1) Phalanx soldiers were spaced with a foot or two between each soldier for most of the movie - until a battle in India when the 'drillmaster' says "lock shields!" and finally they look proper.

2) That battle in India, besides the fact that it was in India, was prettymuch made up - it was in a forest for some reason. They make the battle out to be how it was - though it was supposed to be a river crossing battle with boats involved for transporting Alexander's forces. Also, this is the battle they use for wounding Alexander with that arrow, and killing Bucaphelus, and wounding Hephaestion's thigh. I understand they can't put that all in the right places, but I would've loved to see Alexander's famous last battle climbing up the ladder, jumping into the courtyard, and fighting like a madman with only a couple bodygaurds against the whole garrison. They also don't mention anything about the navy they built, but they did mention the Mekran desert crossing.

3) Alexander calls himself and the army Greek. They totally overlook his Macedonian heritage and simplify it to Greek, and assume that Philip was just a natural king of the Greeks. It's just a nagging annoyance.

4) Once again, Alexander has to come out like every hero of a movie since William Wallace and give a rousing speach to his troops. Yea, it's cheesy, and I winced when he said something like "the glory... OF GREECE!" Also later in the movie when his soldier mutiny, it's a big public spectacle with him yelling at everyone in front of all the soldiers, instead of a private meeting with his veterans and him having a good few days to sulk about it before consenting and not crossing the Beas River.

5) They have this scene where Alexander, his father, and one of the Greek Kinsmen have a big fight, then Philip gets up and falls down because he's so drunk and Alexander says "Here is your King! He's so drunk he can't even move from one couch to the other!" which was suprising that they put in (even in a flashback) because it was basically word for word - the annoying thing is that after that scene they cut to Ptolemy. After briefly saying that Philip was assassinated and Alexander started his conquest into Asia they trace a line through Asia-minor and down the coast to Egypt and then up to Gaugamela... cue the big battle - which has no context for why the soldiers are all excited about Alexander suddenly, when in the last scene he was called a bastard by his father and everything looked pretty grim for him. I was disapointed to not see any of those skirmishes, the battle of Issus, or anything to do with Egypt besides where Ptolemy gives his narrative. I knew it would happen, but I hated to see them cut that much out - at the least they should have shown him gain the acceptance of the troops, instead of just assuming we know why he's all of a sudden loved by all.

Conclusion:

All in all it was a good movie I would say. There was much more correct about the movie than was false, in a story sense. The accents of people were basically all their own - Scottish, Irish - etc.... which was annoying, but once you look over that and things like that Black Cleitus was white - At least they had all of his veterans in the movie. Basically, it's a movie, a story, not a reinactment or a documentary, and it's 3 hours long. For most movies I'd never say to read the background story of the events because it would ruin it - but this time I would, because you'll see things that most people wouldn't appreciate. I recommend seeing this movie, as I enjoyed it more than I thought I would and was pleasantly surprised by certain aspects of it more than I was affornted by their lack of utter perfection that has never been seen before in a historical film.

[Navaros]

All in all it was a good movie I would say. There was much more correct about the movie than was false, in a story sense.


yeah. i'm sure it's totally correct that Alexander's mother looked exactly like Angelina Jolie and gave birth to him when she herself was less than one year old.

btw you put "Alexander kissed a dancer guy" in the wrong list, that is supposed to be under "Cons"

[Goofball]

yeah. i'm sure it's totally correct that Alexander's mother looked exactly like Angelina Jolie and gave birth to him when she herself was less than one year old.

btw you put "Alexander kissed a dancer guy" in the wrong list, that is supposed to be under "Cons"
As I said before Nav, if you are willing to launch your own little crusade against a movie because it happens to feature a homosexual, but you have no problem with the thousands of movies that feature people murdering each other, then I would suggest that not only is your morality a little screwed up, but so is your understanding of Christianity...

[Suppiluliumas]

It is very strange that they should have omitted two episodes as important as Alexander's stay in Gordium and later, his visit to Siwah. The part with the dancer (Bagoas?), although it is mentioned in histories, was probably meant to represent the controversy over Alexander's adoption of the practice of proskenisis, which was something that the Macedonian veterans (notably cleitos) most certainly did not appreciate.

[DemonArchangel]

*must avoid strangling Navaros...*

anyway.... Alexander was probably gayer than Big Gay Al and Elton John combined. And guess what?
It doesn't matter.

[hellenes]

[QUOTE=Colovion]
3) Alexander calls himself and the army Greek. They totally overlook his Macedonian heritage and simplify it to Greek, and assume that Philip was just a natural king of the Greeks. It's just a nagging annoyance.

4) Once again, Alexander has to come out like every hero of a movie since William Wallace and give a rousing speach to his troops. Yea, it's cheesy, and I winced when he said something like "the glory... OF GREECE!" Also later in the movie when his soldier mutiny, it's a big public spectacle with him yelling at everyone in front of all the soldiers, instead of a private meeting with his veterans and him having a good few days to sulk about it before consenting and not crossing the Beas River.QUOTE]

Aaah i dont want to get in tthe argument again but please give some evidence of "macedonian" heritage?
Whats the difference between it and the greek one?
evidence pleaaaasseeeee... :( :(

Hellenes

[Slyspy]

Err..his father was the king of Macedon? If you mean did he come from the area of modern Macedonia then I'm not sure since I do not know how the modern borders correlate to the ancient ones. What I do know is that he no more belongs to modern Greece any more than he belongs to modern Macedonia. You should perhaps consider that the ancient Greeks identified themselves more with their city states than by any modern Greek national identity. We call them Greeks because of the geographical position and distinct culture but they considered this of little importance. Only in the event of external threats did they unit as "Greece" and even then with difficulty and no little squabbling. Ancient Greece was more of a culture than a nation a fact that modern nationalists forget all too easily. Macedon was part of that culture but was on the edge of its influence. To claim that it was Greek in the national sense is false, though it did fall within the culture. You may as well claim that post-conquest Britons were Romans.

[Steppe Merc]

You want evidence? Thrace was right next to Macedon, as was Illyria. They had good horses, just as the Macedons did. Many Macedonians were Thracians and Illyrians. They also weren't a Greek City state. They were looked down upon by the Greeks. How much more do you want? ~:confused:

[Colovion]

He was born in Pella, Macedon. He grew up in the Macedonian culture, with Greek influences.

If someone is born somewhere, raised there, and influenced predominantly by that culture, then that person is part of that culture and has their heritage there. This is especially so when one is in a leadership role his subjects call on him as Alexander, King of Macedon. Once acsending the throne Alexander marched south to subdue the Greeks, giving him the title King of Macedon and the Greeks.

[hellenes]

You want evidence? Thrace was right next to Macedon, as was Illyria. They had good horses, just as the Macedons did. Many Macedonians were Thracians and Illyrians. They also weren't a Greek City state. They were looked down upon by the Greeks. How much more do you want? ~:confused:

EVIDENCE quotes from ancient/modern CREDIBLE historitians STATING that Makedonia was NOT hellenic...period

Hellenes

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Well heres (http://www.macedonia.com/english/origin.html) a site on the history of Macedonia and it says their Greek.

[Steppe Merc]

EVIDENCE quotes from ancient/modern CREDIBLE historitians STATING that Makedonia was NOT hellenic...period
I don't read original sources... my greek isn't up to it. ~D And I don't have my books with me to quote. But all of what I have read of who I believe are certaintly ceridble historians say that the Greeks looked down upon the Macedonians as non Greeks. If you don't believe it, I don't know how I can really prove it to you.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

But all of what I have read of who I believe are certaintly ceridble historians say that the Greeks looked down upon the Macedonians as non Greeks.

What of the article I just posted. Its not credible? A few thousand years from now people might say that blacks are not americans because many used to look down on them and say their not really citizens. I would imagine the Athenians would have considered the Spartans as barbarians also.

[Steppe Merc]

But their military and society was so different from the Greeks. The only Greek city remotley like it was Thessaly, because of their cavalry. The Macedonians weren't a city state, they had non Greek decidadants such as Thracians and Illyrians, and I'm pretty sure they never really had a hoplite army as such.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Heres a question then . Was William the Conqerour an Englishmen ? ~:)

And was Alexander King of the Greeks or King of Macedonia?

[Steppe Merc]

William was a Norman who was decended from the Vikings. And Alexander was a Macedonian.
I understand where your coming from, but just because Alexander conquered Persia and the rest of Persia's Asian holdings didn't mean he was Persian.

[Colovion]

I was born in the States.

I now live in Canada. (have for most of my life)

I'll never be fully either Canadian or American because I won't be moving back to the States, but will always have been born there.

However, Alexander was born and raised in Macedon and ruled Macedon before he ruled anywhere else. He subdued and ruled the Greeks. He was ruler of Macedon first, the Greeks second, then his other conquests. Had Alexander ended up living his full life he most likely would have lived it mainly in Babylon. Even then he would still be Alexander of Macedon, not of Babylon.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

However, Alexander was born and raised in Macedon and ruled Macedon before he ruled anywhere else. He subdued and ruled the Greeks. He was ruler of Macedon first, the Greeks second, then his other conquests

So then why isnt Greece known today or back then as Macedonia? I would think you take the name of the nation that wins not the losers.

[Devastatin Dave]

I went to see the movie. It was....terrible.

Aside from Alexander the Great becoming Alexander the Fabulous, the whole tenure of the film was off. Two simple illustrations: the entire conquest of the Western Persian Empire is covered in a single sentence and it appeared that the battle with Porus was presented as at best a draw instead of the decisive encounter where the Indian forces were smashed and the King was actually captured.

This movie should be avoided, at all costs as an afront to history and one of the most interesting and dynamic figures of the Classical Era.

Thats what I keep hearing. What a shame... :furious3:

[Sir Moody]

So then why isnt Greece known today or back then as Macedonia? I would think you take the name of the nation that wins not the losers.

the Macedonians took control but left the running to the old Govenrments when Alexander died most the City States just up and redeclared themselves Independant... ready to be taken by the Romans not so long after (well i say not so long there was a significant gap)

[Slyspy]

So then why isnt Greece known today or back then as Macedonia? I would think you take the name of the nation that wins not the losers.

In the same way that, to use your earlier example, England did not become Normandy after 1066. The government was taken over but the nation of England still existed as a cultural entity. This is in the same way that Normandy was not Viking and why Greece was not Macedonia. There was prestige in being the ruler of a powerful neighbour. In both these example nations states were emergent entities but the power of the warlord still reigned supreme. Hence William was Duke of Normandy and King of England, while Alexander was both King of Macedon and ruler of Greece.

To Hellenes:
I believe that in your nationalistic fervor you are confusing the ancient Hellenistic culture with modern Greece. The two are not the same. Yes Macedon had much in common with the city states through shared elements of that hellenistic culture but that does not make them Greek. The Gauls were still Gauls even under the influence of Roman culture. Even when Britain was governed by Latin speakers the people and culture was not wholly Roman, and one would laugh at any suggestion otherwise. Anyway what does it matter? The fact remains that Philip and Alexander did more to created a unified Greece than the city states had ever done, whether by the sword or not. They came from Macedon and conquered Greece.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

In the same way that, to use your earlier example, England did not become Normandy after 1066. The government was taken over but the nation of England still existed as a cultural entity. This is in the same way that Normandy was not Viking and why Greece was not Macedonia

I didnt know England even existed in 1066. I believe William defeated the Saxons not the English. Arent the real english the welsh, What was the name of those people who came with the Normans?

[Colovion]

I didnt know England even existed in 1066. I believe William defeated the Saxons not the English. Arent the real english the welsh, What was the name of those people who came with the Normans?

The Macedonians didn't occupy the Greek land. They just conquered and subdued them. What point are you arguing? Are you still assuming Alexander was Greek?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

The Macedonians didn't occupy the Greek land. They just conquered and subdued them. What point are you arguing? Are you still assuming Alexander was Greek?
Im not assuming Im arguing he was. Did he lead a Greek army or a Macedonian one against the Persians? No one has addressed the linkI left on his being Greek.

[Colovion]

Ok. So what about these links:

Link one (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/ConciseMacedonia/MacedoniansNotGreeks.html)

Link two (http://www.macedon.org/anmacs/frame.htm)


1. The ancient Macedonians were a distinct nation, separate from their neighbors, the ancient Greeks, Illyrians, and Thracians. The ancient Greek and Roman historians tell us that the Macedonians spoke a separate Macedonian language and had their own customs, culture, and traditions. Archeological discoveries confirm that the material culture of the Macedonians also defer greatly from all their neighbors, and it is by far more superior in artistry (gold, paintings, weapons, mosaics) then anything found in contemporary Greece, Illyria, and Thrace. The texts of the ancient writers distinguish the Macedonians from the ancient Greeks, just like they distinguish the Romans and the Carthaginians. Yet, like the other non-Greeks, Carthaginians, Romans, Illyrians, and Thracians, the Macedonian high society also used the Greek language along with Macedonian. Greek was spoken by the nobility of many different ancient nations, just like French was spoken in the 19th century (at the German and Russian courts for example). Unfortunately there are only about 150 glosses that have survived of the ancient Macedonian language (most of them with no relation whatsoever with ancient Greek), and like ancient Carthaginian, Illyrian, and Thracian, it can not be reconstructed. There is no doubt nevertheless that the Illyrains, Thracians, and Macedonians were non-Greeks, or in the words of the ancient Greeks "barbarians" which literally means people who spoke other non-Greek languages.

Alexander may have done some things that Greeks did, and some cultural influences, but he was predominantly part of the Macedonian culture.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Read my link from before. It totally dissagrees with yours.

[Colovion]

Well, we have to disagree then. Both my sites disagree with yours, saying that they forged a culture all their own and fought against the Greeks.

I see it like Americans saying they're American, but really they're British, Irish, French... immigrants from other places who forge a culture of their own.

[Navaros]

'Alexander' Fails to Conquer U.S. Box Office (http://movies.yahoo.com/movies/feature/weekendboxofficer.html)

guess this goes to show that most Americans are not willing to pay to see "homosexuality" glorified on the big-screen ~:cheers:

[econ21]

Don't know much about Greece and Macedonia, and care even less (why should Greece, birthplace of Western civilization, get hot and bothered about the sexuality of an ancient general or the name of a tiny Balkan state? It reminds me of that recent film of the US President competing for a small town mayor's post. How far have the mighty fallen...).

However, on England and the Normans, I would say this. I think England as a country only really started to exist towards the end of the Anglo-Saxon period (Angles land => England?). The Normans came in and took over the newly forged outfit, deposing much of the Saxon aristocracy. However, they did not come in sufficient numbers to change the essential English character or even language of the population, so were gradually absorbed into the country. So I suspect it may be like Macedonia conquering Greece, or the Mongols conquering China - military takeover, but ultimately cultural absorption or even in some sense defeat.

[Adrian II]

The Normans came in and took over the newly forged outfit, deposing much of the Saxon aristocracy. However, they did not come in sufficient numbers to change the essential English character or even language of the population, so were gradually absorbed into the country.Isn't the Norman Conquest generally considered to have been the most important event in the history of the English language - introducing thousands of Romance words and a host of new grammatical principles based on ye olde Latin grammar?

[Steppe Merc]

Im not assuming Im arguing he was. Did he lead a Greek army or a Macedonian one against the Persians? No one has addressed the linkI left on his being Greek.
Macedonian. The base was Macedonian: the phanlax and the Companion cavalry. They used greek "allies" in particular the Thessalians and hoplites. But the base and most important part was Macedon. Though later on, he sent back all of the Greeks, and started adding a lot of Persian and other native troops. His army was still Macedonian, not Persian or Bactrcian or whatever.

[Colovion]

Isn't the Norman Conquest generally considered to have been the most important event in the history of the English language - introducing thousands of Romance words and a host of new grammatical principles based on ye olde Latin grammar?

I would agree - yes.

[LittleGrizzly]

guess this goes to show that most Americans are not willing to pay to see "homosexuality" glorified on the big-screen

im sure ive seen plenty of women kissing each other in succesful movies or is it only guys who aren't allowed to kiss ?

plus ive heard that the flim wasn't to good anyway

[Colovion]

Yeah, only women are allowed kissing eachother because gay men are gross. EW COOTIES!!!1

go see the movie for yourself, I thought it was great, and that was a surprise - seeing as I'd just finished Alexander's biography the same day.

[ICantSpellDawg]

I didnt know England even existed in 1066. I believe William defeated the Saxons not the English. Arent the real english the welsh, What was the name of those people who came with the Normans?


I believe that the welsh were just an amalgam of many of the remaining Brythonic celtic peoples still living in southwestern Britain. Technically, i guess that they were more closely related to the "Roman" britons than the angles (whom "engl"and is named after) and saxons who arrived in the mid first millenium AD from jutland and northern "germany". "England" had been in existence since the germanic tribes consolidated power and formed little kingdoms all over southern britain. Although threatened by invading scandanavian people later in the first millenium, by 1066 england was a very real and solid kingdom. After deafeating Harald Hardrada (king of Norway) in northumbria and protecting england from further scandanavian domination, King (of england) harold godwinson lost the royal title and kingdom to the Franko-Viking William the Bastard of Normandy. William was nowhere near being an englishman and the people that he brought with him were just northern french landowners and knights

The alexander problem seems very similar to william of normandy and alexander was probably just as "greek" as william was "english"

both, like MOST historical rulers were alien to the country that they ruled and in a sense dropped their place of origin when they attained more glamorous title and land

[Hurin_Rules]

Just saw the movie. Here are my thoughts:

It wasn't as bad as some people are saying. I wouldn't say it was great, but it wasn't the complete catastrophe some are describing it as. Actually made me wonder if homophobia is driving some of the negative reviews.

That being said, the movie did have some major flaws. They concentrated on Alexander's relationship with his mom, dad and lover rather than on his rise to power and his military victories. This I found hard to take; the interesting questions were never asked. At one point, they jump from him being still under Philip's rule to the battle of Guagemala. What? They just skipped what I feel to be some of the most interesting moments in his life: his charge at the battle of Chaeronea; the victories at Issus and Granicus; the Gordian Knot; the siege of Tyre; his entry into Egypt. As a result, there's no tension built for the final battle with Darius and you don't get a sense of the wealth and power of Persia.

I thought the battle of Guagemala was done reasonably well (except for the lack of Peltasts and other skirmishers in front of the phalanx). They tried to show the Macedonian advance in echelon. The chariots were done well.

Overall, I give it a mixed review. If Stone had just concentrated on the rise of ALexander rather than his relationship with mommy, we'd have a much better portrayal of the man. As it is, Colin Farell fails to give his character sufficient gravitas, and Alexander comes off as a pretty boy whiner. Alexander was far more imposing than that. But Babylon and the Macedonian phalanx looked very cool.

[Pindar]

Hurin_Rules,


That being said, the movie did have some major flaws. They concentrated on Alexander's relationship with his mom, dad and lover rather than on his rise to power and his military victories. This I found hard to take; the interesting questions were never asked. At one point, they jump from him being still under Philip's rule to the battle of Guagemala. What? They just skipped what I feel to be some of the most interesting moments in his life: his charge at the battle of Chaeronea; the victories at Issus and Granicus; the Gordian Knot; the siege of Tyre; his entry into Egypt. As a result, there's no tension built for the final battle with Darius and you don't get a sense of the wealth and power of Persia.


How can you say this (much of which I agree with) and not condemn the film as rubbish?

[Hurin_Rules]

How can you say this (much of which I agree with) and not condemn the film as rubbish?

I think because I was expecting it to be so abysmally bad, from the tenor of some of the reviews. It's not great, but it's not Ghost either.

[hellenes]

You want evidence? Thrace was right next to Macedon, as was Illyria. They had good horses, just as the Macedons did. Many Macedonians were Thracians and Illyrians. They also weren't a Greek City state. They were looked down upon by the Greeks. How much more do you want? ~:confused:

Can you hear yourself?
Since when political structure defines a culture?
Military organisation?
The only man who i know that stated that Makedonians werent greek was demosthenes and he hated Fillipos B'
Just make a search on an athenean called Isokratis...
Example of evidence:

On the origin of the Macedonians

The Greek origin of the Macedonians is proven by the vast majority of the ancient historians.
Diodoros of Sicily talks about the links of Alexander to the Greek mythology (Diodoros, Historical Library 17.1.5):


"On his father's side Alexander was a descendant of Heracles and on his mother's he could claim the blood of the Aeacids, so that from his ancestors on both sides he inherited the physical and moral qualities of greatness."
Herodotus confirms that the Macedonians were people of Greek origin (Histories of Herodotus Book 5, paragraph 22.1)


"Now that these descendants of Perdiccas are Greeks, as they themselves say, I myself chance to know and will prove it in the later part of my history.That they are so has been already adjudged by those who manage the Pan-Hellenic contest at Olympia. "
And later on (Book 8, paragraph 137.1) he verifies it:


"This Alexander was seventh in descent from Perdiccas, who got for himself the tyranny of Macedonia in the way that I will show. Three brothers of the lineage of Temenus came as banished men from Argos to Illyria, Gauanes and Aeropus and Perdiccas; and from Illyria they crossed over into the highlands of Macedonia till they came to the town Lebaea."
Also in the very first book of his "Histories" (paragraph 56.3 ) Herodotus states about the origin of the the Greek people :


"For in the days of king Deucalion it inhabited the land of Phthia, then the country called Histiaean, under Ossa and Olympus, in the time of Dorus son of Hellen; driven from this Histiaean country by the Cadmeans, it settled about Pindus in the territory called Macedonian; from there again it migrated to Dryopia, and at last came from Dryopia into the Peloponnese, where it took the name of Dorian."
Thoukididis also verifies that the Macedonian kings' origin was from the Greek town of Argos (Book 2, 99.3):


"The country on the sea coast, now called Macedonia, was first acquired by Alexander, the father of Perdiccas, and his ancestors, originally Temenids from Argos."
Aristotelis, the teacher of Alexander the Great says about the rivers in Macedonia (Meteorologika, Book I, Par. 13):


"Of the rivers in the Greek world, the Achelous flows from Pindus, the Inachus from the same mountain; the Strymon, the Nestus, and the Hebrus all three from Scombrus; many rivers, too, flow from Rhodope."
Finally Isocratis states (To Philip, paragraph 32):


"Argos is the land of your fathers, and is entitled to as much consideration at your hands as are your own ancestors;"



On the language of the Macedonians

The Macedonians spoke the Greek language as the ancient authors verify. The Roman writer Titus Livius says : (from "The Foundation of the City", Paragraph 31)


"The Aitolians, the Akarnanians, the Macedonians, men of the same language, are united or disunited by trivial causes that arise from time to time; with aliens, with barbarians, all Greeks wage and will wage eternal war; for they are enemies by the will of nature, which is eternal, and not from reasons that change from day to day."
Didorus of Sicily (17.67.1) says:


"After this Alexander left Dareius's mother, his daughters, and his son in Susa, providing them with persons to teach them the Greek language, and marching on with his army on the fourth day reached the Tigris River. "



On the religion of the Macedonians

The Macedonians had the same religion as the rest of the Greeks, they worshiped the twelve Olympian Gods.

Two quotes from Plutarch's "Alexander"


"Philip, after this vision, sent Chaeron of Megalopolis to consult the oracle of Apollo at Delphi, by which he was commanded to perform sacrifice, and henceforth pay particular honour, above all other gods, to Zeus;"

"He [Alexander he Great] erected altars, also, to the gods, which the kings of the Praesians even in our time do honour to when they pass the river, and offer sacrifice upon them after the Greek manner."
Diodoros of Sicily also makes clear that the Macedonnians worshiped the twelve Greek Gods:

Histories, Chapter 16, 95.2


"Along with lavish display of every sort, Philip included in the procession statues of the twelve Gods brought with great artistry and adorned with a dazzling show of wealth to strike awe to the beholder, and along with these was conducted a thirteenth statue, suitable for a god, that of Philip himself, so that the king exhibited himself enthroned among the twelve Gods."
Histories, Chapter 16, 91.5-6


"He (King Philip) wanted as many Greeks as possible to take part in the festivities in honour of the gods, and so planned brilliant musical contests and lavish banquets for his friends and guests. Out of all Greece he summoned his personal guest-friends and ordered the members of his court to bring along as many as they could of their acquaintances from abroad."



On the culture of the Macedonians


"Alexandros observed that his soldiers were exhausted with their constant campaigns. ... The hooves of the horses had been worn thin by steady marching. The arms and armour were wearing out, and the Hellenic clothing was quite gone. They had to clothe themselves in materials of the barbarians,..."
(Diodoros of Sicily 17.94.1-2)



On the geography of Macedonian

The great philosopher Aristotelis (Aristotle) considers the rivers in Macedonias as "rivers in the Greek world"


"Of the rivers in the Greek world, the Achelous flows from Pindus, the Inachus from the same mountain; the Strymon, the Nestus, and the Hebrus all three from Scombrus; many rivers, too, flow from Rhodope. ..."
(Aristotelis, Meteorology, Book 1, Par. 13)
and later on he says:


"The deluge in the time of Deucalion, for instance, took place chiefly in the Greek world and in it especially about ancient Hellas, the country about Dodona and the Achelous, a river which has often changed its course. Here the Selli dwelt and those who were formerly called Graeci and now Hellenes..."
(Aristotelis, Meteorology, Book 1, Par. 13)



What did the Macedonians think of themselves?

It is very clear from the surviving ancient sources that the Macedonians considered themselves to be Greeks.

In Herodotus (Book 9, paragraph 45.2) Alexander I , king of Macedonia says:


"... I myself am by ancient descent a Greek, and I would not willingly see Hellas change her freedom for slavery ..."
Alexander III (the Great) talking to the king of the Persians says: (Arrian, Anabasis of Alexander II,14,4)


"Your ancestors invaded Macedonia and the rest of Greece and did us great harm, though we had done them no prior injury [...] I have been appointed hegemon of the Greeks [...] "
Arrian ("Alexander the Great" 1,16,7) describes the following incident: After winning an important battle in Asia ...
"He [Alexander the Great] sent to Athens three hundred Persian panoplies to be set up to Athena in the acropolis; he ordered this inscription to be attached: Alexander son of Philip and the Hellenes, except the Lacedaemonians, set up these spoils from the barbarians dwelling in Asia"
(Diodoros of Sicily 16.93.1)
"Every seat in the theater was taken when Philip appeared wearing a white cloak and by his express orders his bodyguard held away from him and followed only at a distance, since he wanted to show publicly that he was protected by the goodwill of all the Hellenes, and had no need of a guard of spearmen."

And from Flavious Josephus (11.8.5) we have the following incident where Alexander clearly considers himself a Greek:


"And when the book of Daniel was showed to him (Alexander the Great) wherein Daniel declared that one of the Greeks should destroy the empire of the Persians, he supposed that himself was the person intended"



What did the rest of the Greeks think?

The ancient Greek people alwayws considered the Macedonians to be Greek as well. This can be easily proved because the Macedonians were members of all the Greek institutions, such as the Delphic amphictiony:

Pausanias writes in his book "Description of Greece" (10.3.3):

"The Phocians were deprived of their share in the Delphic sanctuary and in the Greek assembly, and their votes were given by the Amphictyons to the Macedonians."
and also in his book "Phokis" (8,2 & 4):
"They say that these were the tribes collected by Amphiktyon himself in the Hellenic Assembly: [...] the Macedonians joined and the entire Phocian race [...] In my day there were thirty members: six from each of Nikopolis, Macedonia and Thessaly [...] "
Aeschines (On the Embassy 2.32) gives evidence of the Macedonian king Amyntas taking part at the congress of the Lacedaemonian allies and the other Greeks:

"For at a congress of the Lacedaemonian allies and the other Greeks, in which Amyntas, the father of Philip, being entitled to a seat, was represented by a delegate whose vote was absolutely under his control, he joined the other Greeks in voting to help Athens to recover possession of Amphipolis. As proof of this I presented from the public records the resolution of the Greek congress and the names of those who voted".
Isocratis, one of the most impotant orators of ancient Greece says in his speach "To Philip" addressed to King Philip II of Macedonia (Paragaraph 127):


"Therefore, since the others are so lacking in spirit, I think it is opportune for you to head the war against the King; and, while it is only natural for the other descendants of Heracles, and for men who are under the bonds of their polities and laws, to cleave fondly to that state in which they happen to dwell, it is your privilege, as one who has been blessed with untrammeled freedom, to consider all Greece your fatherland, as did the founder of your race, and to be as ready to brave perils for her sake as for the things about which you are personally most concerned."
The Sicilian historian Diodoros says in his history about King Philip of Macedonia (Diodoros, Historical Library 16.95.1-2)
"Such was the end of Philip, who had made himself the greatest of the kings in Europe in his time, and because of the extent of his kingdom had made himself a throned companion of the twelve gods. He had ruled twenty-four years. He is known to fame as one who with but the slenderest resources to support his claim to a throne won for himself the greatest empire in the Greek world, while the growth of his position was not due so much to his prowess in arms as to his adroitness and cordiality in diplomacy.
Even the Persians considerd Macedonia a part of Greece! The Persian king Mardonius says : (From the Histories of Herodotus Book 7, Paragraph 9.1-2)

This is evidence...

Hellenes

[Adrian II]

This is evidence...No, it's not. It's an assortment of isolated quotes copied from a propaganda-site called The truth about Macedonia.... No serious, self-respecting historian, university department or museum director would ever claim to know the truth about an entire country.

Your favourite site has a forum where the standard of discussion is perhaps best illustrated by the way they 'review' Oliver Stone's Alexander movie. I quote from a post by a gentlemen named The Phoenix: 'The average American in particular is an imbecile of the highest order (..) the average American imbecile has no interest or knowledge of history... (..) Secondly, the average American is not only an imbecile but suffers greatly from red neck syndrome and Stone's depiction of the great mans love for young boys, although comforting and erotic for Dimi has turned many others away...'

Another member calling himself John states that the following map, reflecting the Megale Idea I mentioned earlier in this thread, is his favourite:

http://www.turkses.com/issues/greece/GreekFriendship/megeli_idea2.jpg


I am sorry, Hellenes, but your posts do not reflect any sort of scholarship, personal curiosity or respect for the historicity of the facts you refer to.

[Adrian II]

(..) MOST historical rulers were alien to the country that they ruled and in a sense dropped their place of origin when they attained more glamorous title and landBravo, finally some attention for the big picture. In Europe, nations and nationalism became an issue by the end of the eighteenth century only, and in many cases national traditions and identities were inventions of the nineteenth century.

Historian Eric Hobsbawm has written a famous book (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0521439612/tamilntamilrelat/002-8043224-6148815) about those inventions and the motives behind them. I quote: 'Attempts to establish objective criteria for nationhood, or to explain why certain groups have become 'nations' and others not, have often been made, based on single criteria such as language or ethnicity or a combination of criteria such as language, common territory, common history, cultural traits or whatever else... All such objective definitions have failed, for the obvious reason that, since only some members of the large class of entities which fit such definitions can at any time be described as 'nations', exceptions can always be found... How indeed could it be otherwise, given that we are trying to fit historically novel, emerging, changing, and, even today, far from universal entities into a framework of permanence and universality?...'

Even in later periods your rule of thumb applies to many cases of fervent or extreme nationalism. Napoleon was Corsican, Stalin was Georgian, Hitler was Austrian, etcetera. When you're looking for explanations of historical phenomena this is the true stuff, Tuff...

[hellenes]

While i wont get drawn into your LABELING practice what are your quotes?
What are your evidence?
If you have any JUST present them..
Otherwise please refer from labelling other people without backing up your arguments with evidence...
And please can you tell me What the following words mean?
Fillipos
Alexandros
Makedonia
Thessaloniki
And in which language are they?
And as i said before when nationalism is useful for someones interests its called patriotism (afganistan-russia war,vietnam Kossovo) otherwise its labelled extremism at the best and nazism at worst..

Hellenes

[Adrian II]

What are your evidence?You need glasses. You have twice already been pointed to another website (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org) that purports to refute all your claims, and you don't even address it.

Anyway, that is not the real issue. You refuse to get the point that claiming Alexander for any particular nation or culture is in and of itself un-historic. And as with all intellectual issues, the real in-depth knowledge about Alexander and his age is not found on the Internet, it is found in books and scientific articles. Historiography is more than an exercise in connecting a bunch of isolated quotes. It involves careful analysis of the available sources and a transparent argument as to how and why the historian gets from A to B to C in his story.

The Internet is a very poor source that should be used with utmost care and distrust. I work with it every day and every day I am more frustrated by the bulk of nonsense accumulating in cyberspace under the misnomers of information and communication. The Web in particular merely provides short-cuts to the real thing and even in that respect, nine out of every ten websites are useless. Take the test. Type your favourite subject into Google - something you are really knowledgeable about, be it football, gardening, Australian business law or late-nineteenth century steam engines - and see what useful links Google comes up with... one in ten, right?

You can find references to books and articles through serious resources like The History Web (http://www.besthistorysites.net/AncientBiblical_Greece.shtml) or this great site (http://www.isidore-of-seville.com/alexander/) that devotes attention to all the controversies surrounding Alexander. Here's what they state as their mission. Read it carefully, Hellenes, for it is about you.

'Alexander's name continues to carry great weight around the world. Greek, Macedonian and Albanian nationalists fight to claim his mantle. Many Indian and Iranian nationalists hate him with equal vigor. Some Christians believe his conquests prepared the world to receive the Gospel. Some Jews believe he worshipped at the temple in Jerusalem. Some Muslims consider him a prophet. Zoroastrians credit him with the destruction of much of their sacred literature. Tiepolo painted his sexual continence. Homosexuals and bisexuals interpret his amours rather differently. Epileptics, left-handers, pederasts, dandruff sufferers... everybody has their claws in him. There are people who think he's buried in Japan. There are people who think it's Illinois. It really gets interesting when the Internet brings these different groups together. Through this site you can drop on a group of Baha'is discussing Alexander's sexuality, drawing on the Koran, Shi'ah allegory, Persian nationalism, the novels of Mary Renault, and western academic scholarship.'

[hellenes]

The site that you point in HAS only ONE quote/source from ancient historitians wich is IMO absurd and provides with NO CREDIBLE ancient source evidence as for the identity of "makedonians"...
Adrian II I dont want to quarrel with you but its you that continiously naming and labelling me...
As i dont believe in labels and sarcastic statements i didnt call you a bulgarian "history thief" or any other label...
And the site is filled with propaganda and nationalistic aggresive statements wich challenege the sovereignity of the greek country...
If you want to think that Alexander and ancient Makedones werent Hellenic its your right but its also my right to express my opinion...
Just tell me what that names mean and the language that they are in...

Hellenes

[Slyspy]

Nobody is denying that Alexander and the land of his birth were influenced by hellenistic culture. They were after all next door to the most civilized area in Europe. However, that does not make Alexander Greek in the terms which you require (ie somehow belonging to modern Greece not the upstart nation of Macedonia or, worse, the Albanians). Am I American because I am influenced by their culture as the dominant force in the West? No.

[Adrian II]

Am I American because I am influenced by their culture as the dominant force in the West? No.Exactly. Still, our friend's essentialism is at the heart of all modern nationalism, irridentism and the so-called clash of civilizations. If you believe that all people have an immutable ethnic identity (their 'essence'), than there is no discontinuity between our ancient forerunners and ourselves. Strictly speaking there is no such thing as history, because history supposes continuous change, irriversible development and constant assimilation. Of course present-day Greeks couldn't even trace their origin to ancient Greeks (let alone Macedonians) because so many Slav, Avar, Albanian and other immigrants have been absorbed into the population over the centuries. And modern Macedonians can't even reconstruct their 'original' language, even though their propagandists claim it was 'utterly' distinct from ancient Greek. And then there are the Bulgarians who claim that Macedonian is just Bulgarian written in the Serbian alphabet...

Anyway, this is far too tedious to go into.

Here's a refreshing quote from the above-mentioned Hobsbawn. In a 1993 lecture called Inside and Outside History given in Budapest he said: 'The most usual ideological abuse of history is based on anachronism rather than lies. Greek nationalism refused Macedonia even the right to its name on the grounds that all Macedonia is essentially Greek and part of a Greek nation-State, presumably ever since the father of Alexander the Great, king of Macedonia, became ruler of the Greek lands on the Balkan peninsula. Like everything about Macedonia, this is a far from a purely academic matter, but it takes a lot of courage for a Greek intellectual to say that; historically speaking, it is nonsense. There was no Greek nation-State or any other single political entity for the Greeks in the fourth century B.C.; the Macedonian empire was nothing like the Greek or any other modern nation-state, and in any case it is highly probable that the ancient Greeks regarded the Macedonian rulers, as they did their later Roman rulers, as barbarians and not as Greeks, though they were doubtless too polite or cautious to say so.
In the same way that it would be questionable for a modern Swiss-German to claim descendence from sixteenth century Dutch seafarers, it is questionable for modern Greeks to claim family affinity with the ancient Macedonians, even if the ethnological purity which such a claim requires could be established. (..) We must resist the formation of national, ethnic and other myths, as they are being formed. It will not make us popular. Thomas Masaryk, founder of the Czechoslovak republic, was not popular when he entered politics as the man who proved, with regret but without hesitation, that the medieval manuscripts on which much of the Czech national myth was based were fakes. But it has to be done, and I hope those of you who are historians will do it.'

[Steppe Merc]

Can you hear yourself?
Since when political structure defines a culture?
Military organisation?
It does for me, at leas partially. The main part of a culture is it's politics and warfare. A group of people may be related, but be of totally different culture. The Macedonians may have Greek blood in them (though it was also mixed with Thracian and other hill and edge of steppe people), but they weren't Greek, because their way of life wasn't at all like that of Greeks. Only later on, did they try and be like the Greeks, but even then, they weren't the same as Greeks. They were Macedonians.

[hellenes]

It does for me, at leas partially. The main part of a culture is it's politics and warfare. A group of people may be related, but be of totally different culture. The Macedonians may have Greek blood in them (though it was also mixed with Thracian and other hill and edge of steppe people), but they weren't Greek, because their way of life wasn't at all like that of Greeks. Only later on, did they try and be like the Greeks, but even then, they weren't the same as Greeks. They were Macedonians.

Now how you can call a "separate" cultural entity that:
Has NO language on its own rather a DIALECT of greek: YOU CANNOT PROVIDE ANY EVIDENCE of Makedonian language...period
Participates in the greatest sports event which was restricted to greeks ONLY and HAD very strict rules...
Has NO architecture on its own...
The place were all the greek gods liven is in their land...
The arcadians and spartans were as "uncivilised" as the thracians and even more but see there is a trick since Arcadians and spartans were inside the whole Athenean civilisation geographically you cannot cut them out of the greek culture no matter how much you want it...
Where the dorians came from hmmm thats a question...
The thing that yoou dont want to understand that you CANNOT convince the other side without evidence and i havent seen ANY credible evidence from you...
What you can do is to call the opposit opinion names label it and generally try to diminish it...

Hellenes

[Adrian II]

(..) i havent seen ANY credible evidence from you...That's because you refuse to read. We have pointed to literally hundreds of sources that give a balanced, scientifically based account of the issue. The most important difference seems to have been that ancient Macedonia, unlike the Greek city states, was a kingdom. Saying they were one and the same because they spoke Greek is akin to saying that Canada and the UK, or the UK and Nigeria, or Russia and Ukraine are the same for linguistic reasons.

This is really my last word, I'm as bored as Simon Appleton with this nonsense.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

There was no Greek nation-State or any other single political entity for the Greeks in the fourth century B.C.;

So when do we start calling people Greek and why? Whats the difference between a spartan and a macedonian as far as greekness goes?

[nokhor]

in the illiad, when homer refers to the greeks [hellenes] he refers specifically to the dorians. the other tribes like the ionians are not considered hellenes. by the time of the persian wars, it included all the civilized city states in the greek peninsula and their colonies all over the mediterranean. definitions of groups change over time. what it meant to be a roman changed from being a latin citizen born in a specific city state, to include other latins, other itialians, other mediterraneans. it is only over the last 500 years with the solidity of the nation states where group identiies have become static and where you are x, if you are born in x-land and speak x-ese.

[Devastatin Dave]

I bought the movie a month ago and enjoyed it. They homosexual stuff wasn't all that bad and I thought it didn't take away or add anything to the movie. Did they get Alexander right, I don't think so, but it was a good flick regardless. That's Dave's movie critique, what's yours'? ~D

[Gawain of Orkeny]

No ~D

[Steppe Merc]

No. ~D

[sharrukin]

No. ~D

[Pindar]

Did Hollywood get Alexander right?

Clears throat...No. ~D

I saw the theatrical version and the Director's cut. I tried to give Stone the benefit of the doubt. As I mentioned in another thread: I don't think Stone understood his topic.

[bmolsson]

Did Hollywood get Alexander right?

Clears throat...No. ~D


But you don't really know that, do you ??? ~;)

[AntiochusIII]

LOL The Ultimate Rebirth of a months-old thread.

By the way, No. ~D