New Honor Day

[Anssi Hakkinen]

Again, if you haven't already done so, I recommend that you visit The Community Site (http://www.totalwar.com/community/index.htm) immediately. The Shôgun has once again graced us with additional information on the expansion...

What the Battlefield Ninja really are (http://www.totalwar.com/community/newunits.htm)

Read that? OK. So they're, effectively, tactical battlefield assassins; they assassinate entire enemy units. This might not be quite what the realism enthusiasts might have hoped for, but I think this is the best possible way to represent the Ninja on the STW battlefield without bending the rules too much. If the Ninja have only 1/3rd of the men regular units on the field have (screenshot suggests 40 Ninja when using 120 man units), the prospect of Ninja-rushing seems to be pretty much offset, too. Comments? Anything?

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"Crystal clear, / Sharp and bright, / The sacred sword / Allows no opening / For evil to roost."
- Ueshiba Morihei O-Sensei

[This message has been edited by Anssi Hakkinen (edited 01-06-2001).]

[theforce]

As we know the expansion pack will have forests alike TotalWar but it will have lakes, too. I have seen many films where ninjas hide below the water. Ninjas must stay hidden in forests even if the enemy is preety close, even stay hidden when they are moving in forests. About killing entire units well.... i find it a bit stupid. Ninja's were something like Rainbow 6 is today lol http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif. Good idae to kill the enemy general though.

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Don't use only honour, use theforce, too.
http://www.darksideshogunclan.cjb.net
Enter the Darkside...

[Dark Phoenix]

Is that when they breath through the peices of bamboo?

Why would they be able to kill a whole unit of samurais? The only way possible I could see this even coming close is if it was in the woods? Or will they cause the unit to route??



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DoragonPhoenix of the Clan Doragon

[Anssi Hakkinen]

Ah, sorry about the confusion I seem to have created. By "battlefield assassins" I didn't mean they kill entire companies of men dead, period. The text published at the Community Site talks about "one of the most powerful units in the game" and "astounding combat abilities". I take it, then, that they have a huge Attack value - so they become some kind of Junior Warrior Monks (Sôhei-Jugend?). Just the thing you don't want to see appearing right behind your Taishô unit.

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"Crystal clear, / Sharp and bright, / The sacred sword / Allows no opening / For evil to roost."
- Ueshiba Morihei O-Sensei

[Toranaga_Sama]

The site does say, "key enemy "units""! Now how do we define "units"? I speculate a key units might be defined as a unity tactically hidden in the woods behind a hill and such. Stealth and surprise might give the Ninja unit the ability to take out an entire unit of Samuri, definitely Ashigaru.

The fun part for the defender would be detecting the attack and watching an entire unit of 60 destroy the little 20 man unit of Ninja.

Well, at least it'll be a non-practiced element added to the battle.

Waiting for Spring...

[solypsist]

Well no doubt they're fast (the ninja unit) can act as a spoiler for other ground troops, a job previosuly done well by Cav Archers. Now you can make your opponent sweat by swinging ninjas around his flanks, if they're available in MP.

[Hosakawa Tito]

I like they're ability to stay hidden,should be great ambush unit.I just hope they aren't going to be unstoppable terminators.In the campaign game I hope to see them also have the ability to perform sabotage missions.
Tito

[Warmaker]

Sounds to me like the Battlefield Ninjas are gonna be another Warrior Monk unit to demolish any others out there *cough*bs* Killing off a whole set of Samurai? Okaaaaaay...

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There's no such thing as overkill, just ensured victory!

[Gregoshi]

There is still too little information to really panic. All it says is "take out key units". What does that mean? Kill them? Rout them? Immobilize them?

As for concerns about battlefield ninja-rushes, we don't know the koku cost of such units.

I am intrigued...

Gregoshi

[theforce]

Yes the bamboo trick http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
About killing entire units and making em rout it will be tooooooo much. How bout Ninja have special commants like hiding in the water. Also we havn't seem high crass in the game. It wiould be nice to hide yer men in it.

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Don't use only honour, use theforce, too.
http://www.darksideshogunclan.cjb.net
Enter the Darkside...

[Anssi Hakkinen]

Hey hey hey. Take it easy, people.

Nobody (except you) *still* has said that the Ninja have any magical abilities to rout or destroy units. From that text I gather that they just have that increased hiding factor and a high Attack value.

So, they will be useful as special forces: they sneak around the enemy flank, attack their taishô from the rear, and, thanks to their good Attack value and the benefit of surprise, probably kill the taishô. The same method can be used to take out troublesome archers etc. Of course, nobody knows if this will be how the Ninjas will eventually turn out, but this seems both STW-ish and Ninja-ish to me...

But they're not a super unit: they have much less men than an ordinary combat unit. This means they won't be very useful in a fair, stand-up fight, because even if they are as powerful as WMs, they will be overwhelmed by three times their number of men (on "engage at will"). As pointed out, they will probably not have much armor. And they will still likely cost as much as any assault unit. So no Ninja rushes. Hopefully.

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"Crystal clear, / Sharp and bright, / The sacred sword / Allows no opening / For evil to roost."
- Ueshiba Morihei O-Sensei

[Tatsumaru Rokkaku]

for some reason..you people are making me want to play TENCHU 2: Birth of The Assasins... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[Hirosito]

i see this the same way as anssi: used wrongly they don't stand a chance- and will probably be a big waste of money therefore they will be uncompareable to WM because WM are very good unit which can stand up to most other units albeit weak armor

but if the ninjas are used correctly they will not cost as much( u need less) and weaken your opp.

any thoughts on if they have any chance to survive after they have engaged in combat with the taisho- being ninjas they shouldn't mind dying right? So they can't rout?!?

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Hirosito Mori

A warrior's wisdom is shown in the treating of his defeated opponent http://cgi.tripod.com/smilecwm/cgi-bin/s/owen/sid.gif

[Shiro]

So we get an honor day with tantalizing bits but no real hard info.
sigh...

[This message has been edited by Shiro (edited 01-07-2001).]

[ElmarkOFear]

These ninja seem to be a good reason to stay out of the woods! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif If anything they will be great at flanking and reducing the morale of the enemy's flanking units also taking out the enemy general once your army is fully engaged in battle, with the result being the reduced morale of the enemy's entire army and a likely rout. Maps like yamato will be a lot more dangerous than before with all those trees to hide in. I just wonder how much they are going to cost in koku?

[ShadowKill]

NEVER GO INTO THE WOODS ALONE AGAIN!!!!

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Fear not the sword to your front, but the blade at your back.

Clan Shades
Shades (http://www.geocities.com/shadesofshogun/index.html)

[Gregoshi]

So we know
1) they can kill taisho on the battlefield
2) they can "take out key units" (huh?)
3) there is an artist's picture of ninja in a forest (though the text says they can hide in the open too).

And based on this "extensive" http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif information we are devising tactics already. Have I missed some information somewhere or are you guys just having some fun speculating?

Gregoshi

[Hosakawa Tito]

Speculation is great fun!Lions and tigers and
ninja OH MY!!! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
Tito

[The Scourge]

Im not going to worry about Ninja rushers.
No its gonna be the Ninja camper armys ,that worry me.
Have to stay away from those high koku ,forest map games.
Yes Speculation is fun.

[Gregoshi]

Well, if speculation is fun, then let me try one:

The defender in a MP game has a BFninja... hiding... somewhere... attacker routs the whole defending army... except those hiding BFninjas... searching... searching... the clock runs out... defender wins. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif

Hmmm, that was fun. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

Gregoshi

[Obake]

Hmmmmmmm.........Good point Scourge and Gregoshi!
That is obviously something that the developers will need to address.

As far as how the Ninja's will work, here's my speculation. First off, the forest isn't the only place that we will have to worry about folks. The info on the .com site also said that Ninja will be able to hide in the open field! I'm guessing that they would need to remain motionless for a set period of time as units in the woods must before being considered to be hidden.

I'm with Anssi and the rest that it appears that a Ninja unit will be 1/3 the normal unit size. I would also imagine that with their "astounding combat skills" they will have a higher attack value than both Monks and Heavy Cav. Their defensive value however should be nil.

Cost-wise, I'm going to hazard a guess and say that they will be the most expensive unit in the game, somewhere in the neighborhood of 7-800 koku, maybe even 1000. This will definitely eliminate the "ninja rush" as they will be too damn expensive and not cost-effective as an HTH unit.

Where I see Ninja having an impact is on the flanks of the enemy. Imagine a unit of enemy troops passing by a hidden unit of Ninja's in order to engage another unit. As the enemy engages with your unit, your Ninja spring up from hiding and slam into their rear. The morale check alone should cause them to rout, let alone the number of kills the Ninja will get before going back into hiding.

With a bit of careful planning, a Ninja user should be able to do the same to a Taisho, or even a Daimyo in the SP campaign. What I see happening is a radical shift in tactics as Monks are held back in reserve in order to protect Taisho against the potential Ninja assault. I would also imagine that we will start to see stronger units as army commanders, maybe H3 or 4 Monks etc. in order to defend against the Ninja.

Although there is the potential for disaster if they aren't balanced properly, I trust in the capabilities of the developers and am looking forward to the impact that Ninja will have on the game, online or otherwise. This could be quite a lot of fun people!

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[This message has been edited by Obake (edited 01-08-2001).]

[BanzaiZAP]

Thanks, Obake for posting before I could. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
I expect that the Ninja will have great initial attack values, like a charging no-dachi, but as defenders they'll get shredded. Also, I would expect that if they DO get noticed, a missile unit should rpi them up. Another place where their quick running should help! I would also hope that their morale is tweaked, so they can really operate independently. If you send a yari unit on its own, it gets scared. Ninja should be used to it. Hiding in plain sight will be fun, but whether or not they can MOVE and stay hidden, we'll wait and see. It makes sens for them to be able to do it in forests, but not in fields. I don't think they had 16th century japanese gillie-suits...

How about the Sword-Saint? Sounds like he'll have the defense that the ninja lack. But since he's only one guy, you'll need to place him properly. If he gets flanked, he could be brought down. Hance the info mentions using him as a doorstop. I see him like a non-mounted daimyo unit. Absurdly tough, but don't let him get surrounded. His koku cost should be painful, though, or else be a random event - "A kensai has appeared in Echigo province." While I don't expect any ninja-rushes, I

Nice info tidbits, without having any real info content.....

-- B)