Red Harvest
11-20-2004, 21:35
Ok, I've been reading the relevant sections of "Fighting Techniques of the Ancient World" for info on the early Roman armies. (Goldsworthy's "Complete Roman Army" says little about the Roman army before the Punic wars and states that its starting point is indeed at the time of the Punic Wars, rather than predecessor Roman army types.)
It interprets Polybius, Livy and whatever archeological evidence there is to conclude that the Etruscans who conquered Rome around 600 B.C. utilized the hoplite system, and the 2nd Etruscan ruler, Servius Tullius organized Rome into classes. This "Servian army" had ~half the army as hoplites. Hoplite formations require a lot of men so of necessity a hoplite based army would need a lot of hoplites! These were the wealthiest class, landowners who could afford the equipment that the hoplite militia was required to provide. It would appear that other classes were under represented in numbers, and made up lighter infantry and skirmishers.
Servian Army (~14,400 men):
80 centuries of hoplites with full hoplite armour and weapons
20 centuries of lighter hoplites lacking much of armour and using oval long shields
20 centuries of similar troops, lacking greaves
20 centuries of javelinmen
30 centuries of slingers
(Assumptions are made about cavalry as well)
Rome kicked out the Etruscan kings in the late 6th or early 5th centuries BC but retained the above basic army form until they suffered some serious defeats by Gaul and Samnite armies in the 4th century BC. They adopted some of the Samnite styles of fighting and abandoned the phalanx somewhere around 300 BC.
As a result of the changes the army of the time was: hastati spearmen (~first 1/4 of them had spear and javelin, while the rear 3/4 had spear and oblong shield).
Behind the hastati were principes all carrying oblong shields and "fine arms." (Probably swords.)
Behind this was a group of three sections of triarii (vets of proven courage), rorarii (young and inexperienced), and accensii (the least reliable). The triarii were spear armed and carried shields.
Samnites.
I've wondered if it might be possible to move the start date to 3xx BC and create a Latin League faction and perhaps Samnites in place of the Scipii (although you kind of need a territory in the Appenines for the faction as well, with Capua being rebel.) Samnites could primarily be the spearmen and peltasts already available.
Gladius:
One of the interesting things to make note of is that it was probably not until mid-way through the 2nd Punic War that the Roman legions began standard use of the gladius as we think of it. This was a weapon adopted from the Celtiberians. The Celtiberians had abundant iron and blacksmiths that produced superior weapons. Their swords were strong and didn't bend/break like their contemporaries. It was not until Rome made progress in Spain that they could tap this resource. Scipio Africanus made use of the Spanish blacksmiths to re-equip his armies.
Great info! Thanks.
I think I am going to have to call it a "what if" mod. For the beginning phase of the game, the romans would be considered still in the midst of the conversion from hoplite/Samnite army to the true Triarii/Principe/hastati army as currently portrayed. As I am using the Realism mod with early/mid/late versions of the triari/principe/hastati units, I simply converted the early units. So only pre-maniple roman units will be available in early years of the game-(20 to 30 years?).
I converted the triari into a phalanx unit with secondary sword. I converted the Principe into a pure 4 rank spear unit without pilum or secondary sword by using a modded triari TGA. The hastati unit remains the same except for a slight loosening of formation and increase in manpower. I did all this yesterday and everything worked great after the usual problems. I am going to re-examine the early principe after Red Harvests info.
I had to make changes in the export_unit_descr file, the descr_model_battle file and I modded the triari TGA's for each of the factions to differentiate the triari and principe units on the battlefield. It was a fairly easy mod.
Here are the files changed if anyone wants to experiment. Everything worked fine within my Realism mod.
:dizzy2: Changes in the export_unit_descr_file:
1. Gave Early triarii phalanx capability, adjusted mount_effects, adjusted formation factors, adjusted stat_ground effects., adjusted primary/secondary weapon stats and armor.
2. Early Principe is now a pure spear unit lacking a secondary sword or pilum similiar to the normal triari. Same areas adjusted as early triari
3. Early hastati has very few changes. The formation was bumped from 1 to 1.2 giving them a slightly more undisciplined light infantry feel. I also gave them slightly greater capabilities in woods and scrub. And I made the hastatis slightly larger at 50 men to a formation.
Remember these numbers reflect corrected hardy and ground factors. They also have adjusted shield, combat, purchase and unit maintenance values as my files are heavily modded. If yours are not, a straight cut and paste would not be appropriate.
type early triarii
dictionary early_triarii ; Early Triarii
category infantry
class spearmen
voice_type Medium_1
soldier early_triarii, 40, 0, 1
officer roman_early_centurion
officer roman_early_standard
mount_effect horse +3, chariot +3, camel +3
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap, no_custom, very_hardy
formation 1, 1, 2, 2, 5, square, phalanx
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 5, 5, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 25 ,0.55
stat_pri_attr spear
stat_sec 5, 2, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, sword, 25 ,0.75
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 6, 4, 6, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat -4
stat_ground -1, 0, -3, 0
stat_mental 11, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 470, 170, 50, 80, 500
ownership romans julii,romans brutii,romans scipii,romans senate
type early principes
dictionary early_principes ; Early Principes
category infantry
class spearmen
voice_type Medium_1
soldier early_principes, 40, 0, 1
officer roman_early_centurion
officer roman_early_standard
mount_effect horse +2, chariot +2, camel +2
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap, no_custom, very_hardy
formation 1, 2, 2, 3, 4, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 6, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 25 ,0.55
stat_pri_attr spear
stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, no, no, none, 25 ,1
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 4, 4, 6, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat -4
stat_ground -1, 0, -2, 0
stat_mental 9, disciplined, trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 450, 160, 50, 80, 450
ownership romans julii,romans brutii,romans scipii,romans senate
dictionary early_hastati ; Early Hastati
category infantry
class light
voice_type Light_1
soldier early_hastati, 50, 0, 1
officer roman_early_centurion
officer roman_early_standard
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap, no_custom, very_hardy
formation 1.2, 2, 2, 3, 4, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 12, 2, pilum, 35, 2, thrown, blade, piercing, spear, 25 ,1
stat_pri_attr prec, thrown ap
stat_sec 5, 3, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, sword, 25 ,0.75
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 3, 3, 6, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 1, flesh
stat_heat -3
stat_ground 2, 0, 2, 0
stat_mental 7, normal, trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 400, 140, 50, 70, 400
ownership roman
:dizzy2: Changes in the descr_model_battle file.
1. Note I used the triari CAS files for the principe with modded triarii TGA's. I changed the feathers to white and changed some trim as well. If I could figure out how to get rid of greaves, I would.
2. I didn't have to make any changes to the triarii file as it worked fine with phalanx.
type early_principes
skeleton fs_spearman ; combat spear
indiv_range 40
texture romans_julii, data/models_unit/textures/EarlyPrincipeJulii.tga
texture romans_brutii, data/models_unit/textures/EarlyPrincipeBrutii.tga
texture romans_scipii, data/models_unit/textures/EarlyPrincipeScipii.tga
texture romans_senate, data/models_unit/textures/EarlyPrincipeSenate.tga
model_flexi_m data/models_unit/unit_roman_triarii_high.cas, 15
model_flexi_m data/models_unit/unit_roman_triarii_med.cas, 30
model_flexi_m data/models_unit/unit_roman_triarii_low.cas, 40
model_flexi data/models_unit/unit_roman_triarii_lowest.cas, max
model_sprite romans_senate, 60.0, data/sprites/romans_senate_roman_triarii_sprite.spr
model_sprite romans_scipii, 60.0, data/sprites/romans_scipii_roman_triarii_sprite.spr
model_sprite romans_brutii, 60.0, data/sprites/romans_brutii_roman_triarii_sprite.spr
model_sprite romans_julii, 60.0, data/sprites/romans_julii_roman_triarii_sprite.spr
model_tri 400, 0.5f, 0.5f, 0.5f
~:cool: Remember the TGA's referenced above are my adjusted TGA's. You must reference a TGA file available in your texture file. I would recommend just using your existing Triarii TGA's unless you want to mod them.
Of course, if anyone is interested in my adjusted principe TGA's, drop me a PM. I am using webbirds and SgtV's TGA's for principes and triariis. I simply changed the feather to a white feather on each of the faction triarii TGA's. I also made a few minor color changes here and there to differentiate the triari and principe units on the battlefield. However on the battlefield, it isn't really necessary as the units have totally different formations. One is a five rank phalanx and the other a four rank spear unit. Although if anyone knows a quick easy way to get rid of the greaves from the triarii TGA, I would love to know how.
These changes will produce an early roman army more spear oriented on the medium/heavy infantry side. Hastati can still fill the light infantry role but with a bit more manpower than the later more stuctured hastatis. In the early years, it should be an interesting matchup particularly against the Gauls. The Romans may have a more difficult time now against the true hoplite Greek armies until the mobility of the mid-level principe/triari comes available.
Enjoy! ~:cheers:
~:handball: What is funny is I made all these changes yesterday. Everything worked. Time to go back to my campaign and have a chance to use my few remaining early units in some real battles. After about 2 years, the marion reforms hit in 167 BC. :dizzy2:
Red Harvest, I have done a bit of thinking and digging into the matter myself some time ago.
I generally agree with you, but on the matter of the Hastati and Principes I do not.
It seems that the Hastati were in fact purpose made from the get go. Their name actually derives from, not the Hasta but the Hasta Velites, a throwing spear, as Hasta seems to be a rather young name for a thrusting spear.
Anyway, they came about with the reforms abolishing the phalanx in its most solid form. The Romans had seen how effective the Samnites and Celts had been with their heavy javelineers (in case of the Celts it was just the normal warrior). The Samnites set up in a dual-ascies as you said, one line with javelins and large shields (think for a second about how close that description is to the Hastati) and the other with spears. Apparently the Roamns saw the benefits of a lighter force that was able in melee.
The Hastati were meant to win smaller engagements with weak enemies, in that they disrupted with their javelins and then charged in with their swords hopefully breaking the enemy outright. Should that fail they would disengage right away and let the true melee warriors get to the fight, the Principes. The names says it all, the main troops. They were armed with spears like the Triarii as that had been what the Samnited had always been using and the Romans themselves were confident in (few warriors went into battle without a spear even if he had a sword).
Later, quite possibly in the fights against Pyrrhus, it was understood how effective the javelins were right before the charge, and that they were more versatile than the spear (swords make much faster work of phalangites if it can get within them). Lastly the spear is indeed not as aggressive as the sword, and the main fighting troops need to be aggressive and not let the battle develop before them, but rather develop the battle themselves. And thus came to be the Principes as we know them.
But all this is very much conjecture.
The kopis/falcata-type sword is indeed what I have heard the Romans would have used. But it is certainly possible that they used enchiridion-type swords, short stabbing weapons (sound familiar?), at the same time rather cheap due to size (something like very large dagger, if you know the Saexe it would fit well in size). The Hastati certainly had swords when Pyrrhus entered the field as they fought more extensively.
Perhaps sword isn't the best word as we tend to think of either gladii or big celtic longswords. These were small and fast weapons, not cleavers, and at the same time not of any particular quality, but then again they didn't need to be as they weren't fencing weapons.
If the hastati had pila or javelins is not to guess easily, but if they had access to cheap swords then it is possible that they had access to pila as well, from a finacial point of view. But Rome was rather poor at the time, being farmers and herders, so javelins is my bet.
The pila is quite old, I think I have read about Etruscan pilaheads from around 550BC. But it is not impossible that the Romans either couldn't afford to equip troops on large scale with this or that they merely saw it as a battlefield curiousity.
A conclusion is forming in my mind right at this very moment.
The Hastati, being young and inexperienced as well as quite poor can only afford javelins and a cheap stabbingsword.
The Principes on the other hand have both the money and the skills to equip themselves with kopis-type swords that demand you can swing a sword, but is also generally more effective.
Another type of sword that possibly could have been used was a larger type of the enchiridion, something that has gone under the popular name of hoplitesword (try and google it). It is very much fencable and still a very capable stabber.
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