Hey, Tem, get yourself shraightened out...

[Chaguhun Khan]

I agree, Temujin (Genghis) did a lot, but I definatly think he was not the best Khan and was a little off his nut. I do however thing the MONGOLS (plural) where (argueably) the greatest civilization on earth and did countless good in the world (unintentionally). They united the world ten times better (not to mention bigger) than Alexander or the Caesars (which could be easily off their nut too). Point is, it takes someone a little wierd (and yes, off their nut) to start a new revelution.

Chaguhun Khan

P.S. You think the Caesars united 1/3 of the worlds land in less than 50 years? Thought not.

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Official Mongol Cavalry-lover and lunitic (however you spell that)

"When someone annoys you, it takes over forty muscles to frown, but only four to slap the loser upside the head."

[Khan7]

At least the Romans lasted a bit longer and effected a bit less slaughter and destruction, and left more learning and such things as legacy.

Matt

[MarkF]

Agree what did the mongols leave behind...


That the romans built up their empire under hundreds of years certainly isn't something bad!

[Chaguhun Khan]

Like I said, they're ARGUEABLY the greated civilization

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Official Mongol Cavalry-lover and lunitic (however you spell that)

"When someone annoys you, it takes over forty muscles to frown, but only four to slap the loser upside the head."

[Klen Sakurai]

ARGUEABLY, one might almost say the Mongol Empire wasn't a civilization all its own (excluding their origins in Mongolia), they basiclly just took other peoples' civilizations/cities/great works of pride out from under them. It's almost like saying everything the Germans controlled in WWII was the Nazi civilization, though the Mongols did retain control over what they stole a little longer than the Germans did. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

The difference between those examples and the Romans is that the Romans spent centuries developing what they captured so that those they overran eventually became 'assimulated', part of the Roman Empire. I wonder if the Chinese in Beijing ever truly felt like they were "Mongols".

The Han were Han and the Greeks were Greeks, but the Han were never content with their overlords, as exemplified by their revolt and the establishment of the Ming dynasty.

I wonder, were there ever riots in Athens demanding freedom from their cruel Roman masters? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif I guess you could say on the fringes of the Roman Empire, in the Middle East and to the far north, there was discontent. But did the Mongols spread content in the masses anywhere beyond Mongolia?

------------------
Argalarganar.

[Minamoto Yoritomo]

Ahem, don't be too quick to praise the Romans as civilized and call the Mongols barbarians. Let's address some of the points raised here.

First of all, there is the accusation that the Mongols stole others' civilizations. Ever look at Roman mythology? Roman philosophy? Roman architecture? Is there any part of Roman culture that wasn't "adopted" from the Greeks? For that matter, much of Rome's empire was inherited directly from Alexander.

The Mongols were very tolerant people. Probably the biggest reason why their empire fell so quickly was that they became absorbed into the cultures they ruled rather quickly. Mongol rulers in the Middle East rapidly began to consider themselves members of the localities they ruled. In China, the Mongols are not remembered so much as foreign conquerors as just the Yuan Dynasty. The Great Khan allowed a great deal of religious freedom, hiring a number of advisors from all the major religions he encountered. He didn't immolate, crucify, or feed to lions people whose religious beliefs differed from his own.

As to what positive things the Mongols left behind, one could write a whole volume of books. Other than the intuitively obious things like racial mixing and the spread of technology, some could argue that Western society would not have developed nearly as quickly without the Mongols. When the Mongol Empire was spreading over the Asian continent, Europe was stuck under the burden of its feudal system and the medieval Roman Catholic Church. The real threat of a Mongol invasion was one of the few things that convinced local feudal lords to give up some of their power to a more centralized monarchy. Meanwhile, the ensuing bubonic plague that followed the Mongols dealt a devestating blow to the masses and their faith in the central church. This allowed for modern nations to develop, the reformation to occur, and the whole fabric of modern society to come together.

[Klen Sakurai]

okay okay I suck at being devil's advocate. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

I'm not really all that admiring of the ancient west myself, but to call the Mongol Empire the greatest civ on earth is very, very argueable. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Quote Ahem, don't be too quick to praise the Romans as civilized and call the Mongols barbarians.[/QUOTE]
Though, I was rather trying to make the association Han vs Mongol isntead of Roman vs Mongol, alas, I did that poorly.


------------------
Argalarganar.

[Catiline]

The idea that the Roman's lifted everything from the Greeks is a bit of a misnomer. The erality is that the Roman's were incredibly adept at adapting what they found to their own purposes, combined with an inherent desire to seem civilised. Roman gods for instance whilst their image is very Greek, were not Greek god's in any sense of how the Roman's thought of htem. Greek culture was the civilisation of the Mediterranean world, so it was what the Roman's aspired to, also what many of them blamed for the corruption of hte State.

As to the Roman's inheriting the Empire from Alexander, that's everso slightly broadbrush/ wrong. There are 250 years between Alexander and Roman control being firmly established in the Eastern Med, and most of that they had to fight heavily for.

What made Rome great was not adopted frm Greece, because it was that which was fundamentally different. Rome had a pragmatism and purpose that the Greek states lacked. greece couldn't conquer and sustain an Empire, Rome did

[Chaguhun Khan]

The point is, the Mongols united the world like no one else could. They did it harshly, but hey, it takes someone out of the ordinary to get anything new accomplished, so I vote Mongols for greatest ANCIENT (key word) civilization http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif.

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Official Mongol Cavalry-lover and lunitic (however you spell that)

"When someone annoys you, it takes over forty muscles to frown, but only four to slap the loser upside the head."

[TemujinForever]

THE MONGOL EMPIRE IS THE GREATEST EMPIRE IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD!

RUHM ZUM ETERNAL KHAN DES DRACHEC KAISER GENGHIS!

[Chaguhun Khan]

GET OVER IT! You are making these good Japs hate you because of your obssesion. And your making me very annoyed because of your inaccuracy. I like that you enjoy the MONGOLS (not just Genghis Khan) but calm down before you get kicked out (pure warning). I've seen people like you get kicked out on other boards, so do us a favor. Calm down, and stop disgracing the Great Mongol Empire!

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Official Mongol Cavalry-lover and lunitic (however you spell that)

"When someone annoys you, it takes over forty muscles to frown, but only four to slap the loser upside the head."

[This message has been edited by Chaguhun Khan (edited 11-28-2001).]

[BakaGaijin]

Even the other Mongol fanatics have no respect for Temujin.

Don't mind him, he's just a random race supremacist.

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Disappear into the Darkness!!

[Chaguhun Khan]

Bravo to the Mongol Kensai! All Hail Him for his words of wisdom! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

P.S.30 posts, three days, no spamming, not bad if I do say so myself http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif.
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Official Mongol Cavalry-lover and lunitic (however you spell that)

"When someone annoys you, it takes over forty muscles to frown, but only four to slap the loser upside the head."

[This message has been edited by Chaguhun Khan (edited 11-28-2001).]

[TemujinForever]

Ruhm zu den Standards des Immortal Genghis Khan. Das ordon mit acht Weiß. Temujin vollendete das unmögliche. Von den Ufern von Korea, zu den Wäldern von Deutschland das Reich, das er weiter in die Welt, kennt kein Gleichgestelltes holte. Temujin stand dem GENGHIS KHAN und er holte Frieden zum Kontinent. Temujin ist das größte, allgemein, der Strategist, statesman, die Welt hat gesehen überhaupt. Zu seiner imperialen Majestät..., Ich knie.

[This message has been edited by TemujinForever (edited 11-29-2001).]

[Zen Blade]

To non-german speakers:
Basically, Temujin just wrote how great Genghis was (in German).

-Zen Blade

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Zen Blade Asai
Red Devil
Last of the RSG
Clan Tenki Council-Unity, Retired
SHS Core Member

[Catiline]

My german extends to buying bread and milk, and explaining that I play badminton several times a week, and even that's no longer true, but I got the gist anyway Zen Blade http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

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Oderint dum metuant

[clink]

Genghis ist ein gummie puppin

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TeuTonic

[TemujinForever]

The immaculate beauty of Xanadu.

Its just so beautiful :``( *sob*

[BakaGaijin]

My German extends to "Du bist scheisse" and "Ich bin ein Berliner". http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

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Disappear into the Darkness!!

[Khan7]

My German extends to "ein, svy, drie, *BANG*".

And the fact that my last name, Delventhal, means "from the valley of the river Delva".

Anyway..

Matt

[Brown Wolf]

Quote Originally posted by Minamoto Yoritomo:
Ahem, don't be too quick to praise the Romans as civilized and call the Mongols barbarians. Let's address some of the points raised here.

First of all, there is the accusation that the Mongols stole others' civilizations. Ever look at Roman mythology? Roman philosophy? Roman architecture? Is there any part of Roman culture that wasn't "adopted" from the Greeks? For that matter, much of Rome's empire was inherited directly from Alexander.

The Mongols were very tolerant people. Probably the biggest reason why their empire fell so quickly was that they became absorbed into the cultures they ruled rather quickly. Mongol rulers in the Middle East rapidly began to consider themselves members of the localities they ruled. In China, the Mongols are not remembered so much as foreign conquerors as just the Yuan Dynasty. The Great Khan allowed a great deal of religious freedom, hiring a number of advisors from all the major religions he encountered. He didn't immolate, crucify, or feed to lions people whose religious beliefs differed from his own.

As to what positive things the Mongols left behind, one could write a whole volume of books. Other than the intuitively obious things like racial mixing and the spread of technology, some could argue that Western society would not have developed nearly as quickly without the Mongols. When the Mongol Empire was spreading over the Asian continent, Europe was stuck under the burden of its feudal system and the medieval Roman Catholic Church. The real threat of a Mongol invasion was one of the few things that convinced local feudal lords to give up some of their power to a more centralized monarchy. Meanwhile, the ensuing bubonic plague that followed the Mongols dealt a devestating blow to the masses and their faith in the central church. This allowed for modern nations to develop, the reformation to occur, and the whole fabric of modern society to come together.[/QUOTE]

The Mongols murdered Chinese constently, I would hardly call that tolerant.

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Sucess is the only option

[Catiline]

Never mind Khan, it could be "from the valley of the river Neander".

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Oderint dum metuant

[Gothmog]

Quote Originally posted by Brown Wolf:
The Mongols murdered Chinese constently, I would hardly call that tolerant.

[/QUOTE]

You stole my words!! Damn http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

[Chaguhun Khan]

Show me proof. If you can show me one ounce of proof from a reliable source that they killed Chinese WHEN THEY WEREN'T RESISTING, then I admit myself proven wrong.

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Official Mongol Cavalry-lover and servant of the Khan of Khans

[Chaguhun Khan]

Also, who didn't practice mass slaughter then? The Caesars: threw tons of Christians to beasts for entertainment. Alexander: You think he conquered nicely? Guess again. Europeans in general practiced mass slaghter, execpt, many of them tortured their victums. At least the Horde got down to the point. And Japan, even now they torture their captives mercilessly, and back then:

1. Taira beheaded a Minamoto heir who had already died and was in the grave. So they dug him out and decapitated him, mostly for the fun of it. Can you say, a little unstable?

2. Oda Nobunaga slaghtered the Ikko-Ikki after they had captured their temples again and again. So, pot, stop calling the kettle black.

3. Tokugawa Iesayu slaghtered how many Christians once he was in power? The great unifier was nothing more than a murderer. What had the Christians done to him? On the other hand, many Mongols were Christians(and Buddists and Muslims...)

And now for China:

If you just read the Art of War, you'll find that the Chinese did many atrocities, not to mention cutting of the noses of their enemies(more Chinese) ancestors. And you say the Mongols were murderers?

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Official Mongol Cavalry-lover and servant of the Khan of Khans

[This message has been edited by Chaguhun Khan (edited 12-04-2001).]

[Zen Blade]

Khan7,

Your german does not that far extend.....

Took me a while to figure out that you meant...

"eins, zwei, drei" (1,2,3)

in german... when you have "e" and "i" directly next to one another which ever is LAST is the pronounced one.
for example: "ein" pronounced "eye-n"
or "hier" pronounced and means "here" (slightly different pronunciation)...

-Zen Blade

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Zen Blade Asai
Red Devil
Last of the RSG
Clan Tenki Council-Unity, Retired
SHS Core Member

[Chaguhun Khan]

Zen Blade's posts are at 666! He's the Antichrist http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif!

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Official Mongol Cavalry-lover and servant of the Khan of Khans

[Khan7]

Bah! The point about the Mongols is the destruction they caused.

I don't give half a damn who cut off whose nose or who tortured who. If you torture a guy, or murder all the heirs of your defeated foe, you aren't impacting the civilization or the common population.

And think the Mongols didn't torture? Think again. Please go and reread all of your history books, this one isn't even worth my time.

Alexander was, as a rule, a benevolent conqueror. He geniunely sought to bring a better life to those he conquered. If his reasons or his methods were a bit arrogant or imperialistic, so be it, but in the end he felt he was doing good, and in reality he was. Compared to any conqueror, save perhaps the Romans, he was quite benevolent.

Now there were a few choice situations in which, for instance, he got into some really nasty sieges, and had some good friends of his killed, and was himself *badly* wounded, where he ordered some mass slaughter/slavery. So his hands are not clean *by any measure*. But these were exceptions.

As opposed to the MONGOLS, who slaughtered as a rule. Slaughtered ANYONE and ANYONE AFFILIATED WITH ANYONE who resisted them in the slightest. Alexander was (or at lesast saw himself as) a "noble" figure, seeking to make vassals of his erstwhile foes. The Mongols didn't see it that way, and judging by the words of Genghis, drew genuine pleasure from atrocious behavior. Something along the lines of:

"The sole pleasure in life for a Mongol is to cut down my enemies, to drive them before me, to witness the tears of their loved ones and to embrace their wives and daughters."

Now, going around with an attitude like this, it isn't hard to see why everyone HATED the Mongols, and why the impact destruction they wreaked is STILL TANGIBLE TODAY. For instance the province of China which has never been productive or fruitful ever again, since the Mongol devastation.

The mere fact that they were so hated and that their empire was so shortlived is testament to their barbarity. Alexander managed to forge real political power out of his conquests, and his successor states continued to rule until all but the Seleucids were totally absorbed into the Roman empire. And the Romans managed to forge real political power, and were eventually begrudgingly liked by many of the conquered.

Analyze it away however you like, but there was *something* about the Mongols that was anathema to every people they visited. I would imagine that it had to do with the loot, pillage, rape and slaughter that they had a nasty habit, or rather a "proud tradition" (lol) of bringing everywhere they went.

Take whatever examples of atrocities committed by other cultures, and that's fine, but they still don't compare to the magnitude, ferocity, and regularity of Mongol acts.

And trying to compare mass slaughter and ruining of farmland to torturing political prisoners is like comparing a bullet to the head with the microcellular damage caused by the landing of a feather on one's skin. Two completely different levels of magnitude, incomparable.

Matt

[Khan7]

Point being that if they had been such good guys then they would have lasted, and would be *portrayed* as good guys.

They basically shot themselves in the foot.

Matt

[Chaguhun Khan]

Um, two things:

1. You did not read my posts! I'm not saying the Mongols are holy, Genghis Khan could be a lunitic sometimes! What I am saying is that the Mongols were brutal beyond comparison to people who resisted, but they were extremaly tolerant to people who didn't. And after they conquered the people they conquered, it was said that "A virgin carrying a bag full of gold could go across the entirety of the Empire unharmed". You think the Romans and Alexander established that kind of peace?

2. WHY THE HECK DO YOU HAVE THE NAME KHAN???

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Official Mongol Cavalry-lover and servant of the Khan of Khans

[Chaguhun Khan]

You're wrong, Kublai Khan shot himself in the foot by switching the capital to Peking, and the kamikaze shot them too. The thing that made them powerful, guys like Mongke, Ogedei, Batu, and Subedai, didn't do a thing to shoot them in the foot. Mostly it was just bad luck.

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Official Mongol Cavalry-lover and servant of the Khan of Khans

[Khan7]

Their underlying model was flawed, IMO. Too much, too fast, too cruel.

And from what I understand, they didn't really administrate that which they conquered, just demanded tribute. So you can I suppose give them credit for a lack of major wars between those under their thumb. But the level of civil peace in the various states can only be attributed to the rulers of those states.

The Mongols did not administrate, at least not much and not well. They simply demanded tribute, a system which by its very nature breeds resentment and foments dissent. The Mongols of course were supremely confident in their ability to slaughter the heck out of anyone who actually got up the gumption, and that this would scare everyone else into further submission. Eventually this was proved to be (a) wrong and (b) wrong.

My name is Khan because the Mongols are cool. They have nice horsies. They destroy people in battle. They have a true appreciation for military technology. Also because I had a real infatuation with them during my younger teen years (this has of course much lessened as I got to a more mature view of history and sociology).

I dunno, I probably shouldn't be here talking, because all I feel like doing today is picking fights. If I were in a proper mood I'd find some way to come to a good understanding blah blah or at least do something other than fan the flames, but alas. I shall shut up now.

Matt

P.S.: Point being I'm just sort of arguing off the top of my head for the sake of it. I still can do pretty well like this, but I always *try* and keep away from mere sophistry and only debate with the goal of better understanding. My apologies, I'll be back some other day.

[This message has been edited by Khan7 (edited 12-04-2001).]

[Chaguhun Khan]

I say we call it truce. I give them too much credit and you give them too little. Let's just say that they were brutal jerks, but were the most intelligent warriors of their time(strategy wise). Cya around m8!

Chaguhun

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Official Mongol Cavalry-lover and servant of the Khan of Khans

[Klen Sakurai]

Quote Originally posted by Khan7:
Bah! The point about the Mongols is the destruction they caused.[/QUOTE]
Ahh, that was pretty much the point I was trying to make in my earlier post, but you demonstrated it much more carefully than I did. This is probably due to the fact that almost half of my knowledge of the Mongols comes from this forum. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif Thankee, Khan7.

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Why do I love when I still feel pain; when does it end, when is my work done? Why do I fight, and why do I feel that I carry a sword through a battlefield? (VNV Nation)

[TemujinForever]

*Alexander was, as a rule, a benevolent conqueror. He geniunely sought to bring a better life to those he conquered.*

The CNN propaganda machine strikes again.

*If his reasons or his methods were a bit arrogant or imperialistic, so be it, but in the end he felt he was doing good, and in reality he was. Compared to any conqueror, save perhaps the Romans, he was quite benevolent.*

Alexander the Great was a raving homosexual. He was defeated by the Indians. and he was a pitiful conqueror, statesman, not to mention a mud tracker. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[Shiro]

Quote Originally posted by TemujinForever:
Alexander the Great was a raving homosexual. [/QUOTE]

So be it! What does that have to do with how he ruled?

[Khan7]

This is why I am not a moderator. If I were an admin or a moderator, I would play cruel tricks on yon TF, like changing his title and icon around and stuff..

Oh well..

Matt

[Catiline]

Alexander wasn't defeated by the indian's he was defeated by the Macedonian army which mutinied and demanded to go home. Conquest stopped seeming like such a good idea when everybody died and whatever booty they'd got could never be spent.

The fact that alexander was a drunkard and not a little insane might have affected his ability to rule, I doubt his sexuality did though, and seeing as how the Greeks weren't in the slightest bit bothered i fail to see why we should be. one can't really fault his conquering credentials though, or his ability as a general. He did however manage to hold togehter an Empire by dint of personal ability and charisma, which pulled itself to bits within months of his death. Doesn't say much for him as a statesman perhaps, but it says massive amounts about his ability in ohter respects

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Oderint dum metuant

[Idaho]

Hahahahaha. How come you have all got so rattled by this troll? It's hysterical watching TF come out with such nonsense (so ridiculous and provocative that it's obviously a troll) and you all jumping around to the tune he plays. Heheheheheh...

[Catiline]

playing along to see what he come's up wwith next

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Oderint dum metuant

[Jaguara]

How can you say that Catiline?

He just repeats the same rubbish over and over again with minor variations...

[Vanya]

http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif

[Shiro]

Hold me back! Hold me back!

[MagyarKhans Cham]

it seems the Khans propoganda machine is doing well in here