do any of you play the Chess games on PC?

[Navaros]

recently i've been thinking of taking up Chess

of course i know "how" to play, but i'd like to elevate my game and play with an educated basis instead of just "winging it"

the thing is, i don't know if Chessmaster 10th Edition is better than Fritz 8th Edition for the purpose of teaching skill at Chess

do any of you play these games?

the things i've read elsewhere seems to suggest that Fritz is the better overall program

any comments from you guys who've played Chessmaster and/or Fritz?

[Uesugi Kenshin]

I play chess, it is great fun especially when you get someone with whom you can smack talk. :furious3: Yes smack talk and chess, strange isn't it?

Chessmaster 10th edition seems to be very good, I have a demo and the opponent I get to play Bobby Fischer, rating 2950 or something is impossible to beat, 60-80 losses in a row 0 victories. In the full game there are more difficulties, and it has a teaching section.

[Kraellin]

you might also ask Puzz3d here on this forum. he's a chess guy.

K.

[spacecadet]

I played online at this place for a little while:
http://www.redhotpawn.com/

Its pretty good, especially when your at work where the firewall stops a lot of stuff, plus its free. Ive found its easier to learn from just playing people.
Also played at the Yahoo site for a while which is good too. Certainly cheaper than buying a chess program and more fun than playing the computer ~D

[King Edward]

Im not a fan of computer chess, Im a reasonable player (played for Guernsey jnrs when i was 11) but i find that reading peoples reactions and just watching eye movement helps you in forming plans, you dont get that with a PC version

[Red Harvest]

If you want to learn how to play decent chess, you should do some searching for some beginners books. I would not start with the PC as a teacher. Modern PC chess software can be frustrating for a begginer because they can be so strong. It will make a decent opponent as you study. What you really need is to study the basics. Don't be fooled by me referring to "beginner" books, this doesn't mean simple books for a child, much of the mainstream chess literature is very, very deep written more for expert or master level.

Look for books that describe and have examples to work out of the various tactics (pins, skewers, forks, discovered attacks, etc.) as well as combinations. A good beginners book should also have some basic opening theory, discussions of strategic issues such as open and closed positions, and endgame study. You will probably want to get a decent book on openings as well. Once you learn how to properly deploy and counter you will find your play is much better.

I play best with a board in front of me. I can visualize things better that way. I haven't played tournament chess in years though, when I did it was mostly correspondence and was eating up too many hours each week.

[ah_dut]

I use Fritz but started up at the school's chess club...even on easy difficulties Fritz will thrash an amateur...

[King Edward]

Maybe we should have an .org Chess competition, to determin the orgs 'grand master' Just a bit of fun, and can help anyone wanting to get into the game to learn some rules and tactics of the game.

[ah_dut]

I'm up for a first round loss your highness

[Chimpyang]

I will certainly play if theres gna be an online chess tourney.....chessmaster 10 demo is getting boring now....

[Navaros]

hey ah_dut since you use Fritz can you please answer this question for me?

can you manually adjust the board size with Fritz? i want a big huge full-screen board. i don't want a small board that only takes up like 1/3 of the screen in order to fit into a whole bunch of other windows

that's one of the reasons why i don't like some other chess programs, because the boards are too small for my liking

[ah_dut]

IIRC you can but I'll have a definitive answer tommorow as I'm tired and need to dig it out again

[ShadesWolf]

What a brilliant idea about having a chess competition, Im in ~:cool:

As for what Chess program is best, I have 'Chessmaster 10th Edition ' and I really like it. I play a lot online - mainly at a chess site called

ChessWorld.net (http://www.letsplaychess.com)

well worth a visit and spend about 2/3 hours per night playing.

Drop me a line if you set a tourni up.

[Navaros]

i went and got Chessmaster 10th Edition and played it a lot yesterday. so far i have only realized one thing with certainty: i really suck at Chess! LOL. even the 1009 AI players were massacring me. funny thing is, i know i used to be way way better when i was a kid in kindergarten. how sad is that.

i watched much of the tutorials and i totally couldn't follow it. that young grandmaster talks way too fast for my liking (i must be getting old or something). after watching his tutorials all i can think is: "huh?"

i especially didn't like his opening tutorial. he basically only gave the following practical advice: "always open with your King's pawn to E4"

"then your next move should be Queen's Pawn to D4 - oh, that is unless your enemy has moved a central pawn out to challenge the square!"

the problem is, every enemy player does exactly that! hence i am clueless as to what to do next since the Josh guy does not explain how to counter that.

he says "develop the center, bring Knights out before Bishops" etc. etc.... well that's just great except i don't know how i can do that without blocking in my own pawns and Bishops and Queen - because he doesn't tell ya how!

the openings tutorials don't seem to go far enough to explain this either. they usually only explain one or two moves to do at the start, and that's it.

btw for those of you have played it, is there any way to MAXIMIZE the Window of this game to play it in FULLSCREEN mode? from what i've noticed i can't get it to stop playing in a windowed mode :dizzy2:

and how come the AI in this game can call on rules like three-time repetition draws and 50-move rule draws, yet if YOU want to call that against the AI you are not able to do it? what the heck?!

for all you Chess gurus:

1. can you please explain what the proper way to open is after King's Pawn to E4, so that i don't block myself in?

2. why is castling considered "protecting" the King despite the fact that it moves the King to the very side of the board and bottom rank (which is where you wanna force the enemy King to go to get mate for yourself anyhow) and boxes him in? i've been mated a lot with a Bishop/Queen against my H2 pawn while i'm in a castled position. or Rook/Queen. or a whole whackload of other stuff. i am truly bewildered as to why castling "protects" your King since it seems to get me mated more often than not.

3. how can i be sure to develop the center enough without having to move my Bishops or Knights backwards in order to avoid an attacking enemy pawn? it seems a lot of times this screws up my plans. yet if i don't move my Bishops and Knights as far into the center in the first place, they don't get developed

long, highly-detailed answers to these questions would be most appreciated

[Chimpyang]

Right then........King's pawn to E4....that opens up A LOT of openings.....the riskiest one is if the enemy counters with Their King's pawn to E5, you bring up the Kingside Bishop to F4......now that is the Kingside Gambit.....you'll almost NEVER see that at the top level for the simple reason that it leaves the kingside wide open to attack. Try the 4 Knight's Opening where you move your knights to F3 and hte other one to C3. This allows for the bishops to be brouhgt out. Now the White Square White Bishop is the ATTACKING BISHOP for white as it can hit the Black King's original square. The other one is the DEF BISHOP as it can block the opponents attacking bishop. Keep that in mind because you WILL have to block one at some point in the opening.

There's also the most played opening in the world - the Ruy Lopez or Spanish Game. it is in chess notation : 1. e4 e5, 2. Nf3 Nc6, 3. Bb5 Now there are TONS of variations on this but this fiurst 3 moves are always the same. Try looknig for a beginner book to openings in your local libary or have a hunt online. The online stuff is a lot more compliacted as it assumes you have a pretty good hgrounding in chess terms.

I myself prefer the Queenside Openings, I favour the English Opening with an aim to set up a variant of the King's indian Defense.

[Chimpyang]

Castling is protecting the King because since all of the pawn mmvoes are in the center it can leave a lot of open spaces with pawn chains moving about constantly, by moving the king away from it, you are :
1: Putting a piece between the King and enemy pieces.
2: Moving Him away from where the enemy is trying to break through.

Now if you are continuously getting mated on H2, then i suggest you look out for queen moves, pins and the such when you're playing. If a piece such as the bishop is attacking one of the 3 pawns in front of the king then be careful that you have them guarded when at least when there is a major threat about, even if the main action is elsewhere an sudden swithc can leave you in th cold completely.

There are some times where you'd want ot castle and some where you wouldn't, (ie when the kingside/queenside has taken a battering) you have to make a choice yourself on whether it is better to.


Also try and look at things from the otehr player's point of view.........would you want to put a piece next to the 3 pawns which are covering all of the squares in front of them just so you can attack the king?

[Navaros]

thx for the tips, i just watched the Ruy Lopez opening

what i don't get: isn't the Bishop to Bb5 a waste of a move since Black is just going to push him back and hence violate the Chess principle to not move just one piece more than once in the opening?

the Josh tutorials said not to do that ~:eek:

[Red Harvest]

Yes, I'm not surprised that you found the PC opponent tough on easy levels. It takes a little while to get it sorted and the computer most likely is still using its strong opening book, so that you will be starting out on the wrong foot.

Don't take the "rules" of chess openings too literally. They are guides and eventually you will understand when to ignore them and when to obey them. One of the things the Ruy Lopez does is to force your opponent to respond to your aggressive bishop move. Pinning a piece to the king is aggressive and no idle threat. When black moves the pawn he has also "lost a move" and at the same time altered his pawn structure in a way that creates a hole that might later be exploited, so you aren't really violating the guideline either, but you are forcing him to commit.

The guideline is to discourage you from taking a tour with a piece, a common weakness in beginners (as we all once were.) The idea is to be efficient with your opening moves and not to "waste" any. If your opponent is staying in reactive mode *without* gaining an advantage, then the move is not wasted. I was never a Ruy Lopez player and I don't have any of my opening books with me at the moment. I usually played queen's pawn opening as white as my style matured. However, king's pawn openings are a good way to start, since they tend to be more straightforward in their logic (except when your opponent counters with something like the sicilian defense.) As black I usually played the sicilian defense vs. King's pawn and tried different variants as my style matured. I disliked locked symmetrical centers. (The computer's book will be very, very deep in the Sicilian--and my opening books were deeper, sometimes taking me well over 20 moves/40 plies deep before we left the book in correspondence play.)

[Chimpyang]

I just dont like moving my king's pawn away from the king, I still try and lock out the center as black whenever possible as I hav always found tht i can usually generate mor space than White, who is looking to attck me, this usually ends up with White throing his moving first advantage away and letting me to dictate the play a bit more.

But i agree, even on easy the computer's opening books are very complex, especially if you play one of the more popular openings.

[Navaros]

i was trying to study some more of the Josh tutorials tonite

he was teaching about Skewering, Pinning, Removing the Defender, and Sacrificing

i can understand these ideas as concepts, but i don't forsee how i'll ever be able to see these moves become available to me during an actual game

when i watch how he does it, i think: "wow, what an amazing move!"

then when it comes time for me to do something similar and he says "pick your best move", i can hardly ever figure it out

he was doing stuff like sacrificing his Queen, and then not getting any material back for it til like 3 - 5 moves after the sacrifice.

i'd love to be able to do things like that. but when i look at the Chess board, i feel impotent. i can not visualize the moves in the way that people capable of performing these techniques can. i find the board very intimidating and confusing.

i understand what having skill is all about, but i can't put the theory into practice

do any of you have any tips on how i can make all the techniques "sink in" to this thick skull of mine to the degree where i'll actually be able to see those moves during a real game one day?

i am also curious:

1. how many moves ahead can the average Chess player "see"?

2. what is the ELO rating for an average Chess player?

3. should i quit now while i'm ahead? i want to be competitive at Chess. i don't want to play like an average joe nobody forever. is Chess a type of game where one just has to be naturally gifted at the game, or can normal people decipher it too (at a highly competitive level)?

[ah_dut]

1. how many moves ahead can the average Chess player "see"?
I see about 3-5 moves ahead usually but I play every week for an hour



2. what is the ELO rating for an average Chess player?
no Idea

3. should i quit now while i'm ahead? i want to be competitive at Chess. i don't want to play like an average joe nobody forever. is Chess a type of game where one just has to be naturally gifted at the game, or can normal people decipher it too (at a highly competitive level)?
You can get a hell of a lot better very quickly, and it's a little about natural talent but if you play a good few games regularly, you will ge much better Navaros

[Red Harvest]

do any of you have any tips on how i can make all the techniques "sink in" to this thick skull of mine to the degree where i'll actually be able to see those moves during a real game one day?


1. how many moves ahead can the average Chess player "see"?

2. what is the ELO rating for an average Chess player?

3. should i quit now while i'm ahead? i want to be competitive at Chess. i don't want to play like an average joe nobody forever. is Chess a type of game where one just has to be naturally gifted at the game, or can normal people decipher it too (at a highly competitive level)?

For learning how to apply the lessons, work "chess problems." I'm not sure where you can find these online since I've never been an online player. You should be able to find some with "mate in three" or "win in two" etc. where the win would be a decisive gain in material such as winning the queen or a rook or piece etc. With these you have definite "right answers" and it excercises your mind to recognize the positions where specific tactics should be applied.

1. There was a world champion many, many years ago who answered the question about how many moves ahead he could see and his reply was something like, "Only one...but it is the best move." It depends on the position and phase of the game. In some endgames I might see 8 to 10 moves ahead since the position is much simpler to analyze to completion and many moves are essentially forced. Complex middle games with lots of possible combinations makes 3 a challenge at times. More typical for me when I was playing was about 5, but remember that this is seeing what I deemed the "most likely" moves, not necessarily what happens. So whenever my opponent surprised me with a good move that I didn't anticipate you could say I saw zero moves ahead...
2. I don't know about ELO, the typical rating systems I've seen give the "average" level player something in the 1500-1600 range. 1700-1900 is journeyman tournament players. Around 2000-2200 you get the expert players and around 2300 you reach true masters.
3. I have no idea really, we are each different. I think it takes a certain level of natural talent to be competitive at the higher levels. It also takes a lot of hard work, time, and concentration. I don't know that I had the sufficient natural talent, but I did get to expert level and won an expert correspondence touranament after a steady rise from "average" over about 8 years. At that point it was taking a lot of time and effort (these folks were good.) I thought I might be able to make master if I worked much harder at it, but it would have required much more time than I had available, so I took a sabbatical from it. Try it for awhile, if you don't feel like you are making any progress you can always stop.

One thing you might do for learning to visualize the board is to try playing some by notation alone (no board in sight.) This is very difficult, but forces your mind to recreate the whole position and become less dependent on looking at the board. When I played correspondence chess I knew all of my current positions, so that when I picked up a card with just notation in the mail, I knew the position and ramifications and often knew the response before I sat down and rebuilt the position (although I still often spent quite a bit of time reanalyzing everything.) I typically had 20+ games going at a time and knew all of the current postions. I think this was the norm for good correspondence players.

[Beirut]

I thought the Chessmaster 10th Edition demo was excellent! Limited to eight hours play though. Ack! But I did see an improvement in my game in those eight hours.

I bought the 9th edition in the bargain bin, figuring it was just as good, but I just don't like the setup as much and I never play. Going to have to buy the 10th edition.

I almost always use the B&W 2D board. Very classic.

[Navaros]

i think Red Harvest is right in that 10th Edition AI players play a lot better than they are "supposed" to given their numerical rating. every time i do something, the computer does the "anti-_____" counter to whatever it is that i have done! i can't make any progress. my men are almost always tied up behind my own pawns. part of this is because i'm not good at Chess, but a big part of this is also because the computer sees what i did, then follows the books to perform it's anti-whatever-i-did pattern. it's not exactly fair. i'm not learning anything at all by getting beat by the computer.

[Al Shama'ar]

Is this chess competition going to start or what? :duel:

Send me a pm i'm willing to enter. :charge:

Al

[King Edward]

I would be willing to organise one but not untill after the Christmas period is over as Im just too busy at the moment.

[Al Shama'ar]

If King Edward is willing to organise this let's start by creating a list of players here:

I'm in

Al Shama'ar
...
...
...


PS: Copy the list and add your own nick

PS2: This is not against forum policies, is it? ~:confused:

[King Edward]

Al Shama'ar
King Edward (.Org Grand Master elect ~;) )
...
...

[frogbeastegg]

PS2: This is not against forum policies, is it? ~:confused:
Not that I know of, and I don't see any reason why it would be. Organise away. ~:)

You could post a few advert topics in the other forums so more people have a chance to enter. I know there are many players scattered around here. It might even be possible to get an advert on the org front page; I can inquire if you like.

[King Edward]

I think it best for now just to sound out numbers as as I stated above I'm a bit stressed for time at the moment but if people wish to sign up or leave comments and suggestions about structure and format for the competition go ahead!! or PM me. ~:cheers:

[Kommodus]

I just thought I'd reply to a few things that have been said on this thread...

1. I haven't had much luck playing against computer opponents either. I'd much rather play against real people online (or at a real board if possible). There are several sites where you can do this; I use gameknot.com because it's the first free one that I found.

2. If you feel that the computer is always choosing the right move to counter whatever you're doing, realize that of course it will attempt to do this. You move to attack a piece, it moves to protect that piece or get it out of danger. Anything else would be a blunder. AI opponents never miss something like that, no matter how easy you set their difficulty. They might fall for more advanced combinations and long-term plans, though.

3. Castling alone does not protect your king. It helps protect your king (by placing him behind a pawn wall), and helps develop your pieces faster (especially one of your rooks). However, your opponent will immediately begin to plan how he can attack your king (you should be doing the same), and you have to watch out for that. Is your opponent lining up a queen and a bishop to attack one of the pawns guarding your king? Try advancing a pawn to block the attack. Is he trying to pin a pawn against your king and then move a piece to a square the pawn would otherwise be controlling? Think of a way to counter that. Your pawn structure is very important; those three pawns that are in front of your king when you first castle don't have to remain stationary. Try moving them into a structure where they mutually support each other. This is even more important if your opponent threatens back-rank mate.

4. If your pieces keep getting stuck behind your pawns, it means your pawn structure is weak. This is bad, as pawns are very important in chess. Develop a good pawn structure while you are developing your pieces. You want your pawns to be controlling the center if possible, and mutually guarding each other. Consider pawn chains, in which pawns placed along a diagonal line support each other, with only the rear-most pawn unsupported. Try to avoid "doubling up" pawns on the same file, since two pawns on the same file cannot support each other. When initially moving pawns, move them in ways that will allow you to develop your other pieces, especially bishops and knights. Try the "fianchetto" trick (it's a simple structure involving three pawns and a bishop; if you don't know what it is, look it up online).

5. It helps to pick a particular opening you like and stick with it for a while, until you get used to it. However, don't get stuck on rules; you have to be able to adjust your game as the situation demands.

6. Have a plan. Think about how you can attack your opponent's king, or how to force him to lose material.

7. Try studying chess puzzles, or games played by good players. The site I mentioned earlier (gameknot.com) has some online chess puzzles. Another site, www.chessgames.com, has a new puzzle every day (they start out easy on Monday, then get progressively harder as the week goes on). It's a great site that has a huge database of games; take a look at a few to find out how the masters play the opening, middle, a late game.

8. Don't worry if you don't become great quickly. The masters and grandmasters have devoted their lives to the study of the game - and believe me, it can fill a lifetime! There are more tactics and nuances than anyone can master completely. If you doubt this, look at the comments made on games by some people at chessgames.com. I still don't understand most of what they say.

Most people who play chess play for fun. Only those willing to make it the focus of their lives ever become truly great. I think I'll stick with playing for fun.

[Navaros]

i tried studying all the in-game tutorials of Josh Waitzkin in Chessmaster 10, and i watched all of his annotated games

i noticed it helped me very, very little

the opening principles section that he gave sucks. it was the worst section of the whole Waitzkin tutorials. it only explains how to set up the pieces in an ideal situation, and it demonstrates this as if the opponent did not get to move. but it does not show you how to achieve something similar once the opponent does move too

i tried play vs. some real people online and i got totally massacred even when i try to "control the center" like Waitzkin says to do. the problem i have is that even if i can control the center, i can't figure out how to break thru the enemy pawn structure since pretty much every square that gives access to attack his major pieces is always covered by an enemy pawn

i always fubar up my own pawn structure by accident. i end up with stuff like two of my own pawns on the same file after having to kill an enemy knight early on. or with my own Bishop stuck between two of my own pawns in the center, which also pins my Queen to that Bishop (just lost a game because of that).

the problem with the Waitzkin tutorials in Chessmaster (aside from his utterly crappy and very brief openings tutorial) is that he is speaking way above my head. i can't follow what he does. i can recognize positions in my own game that suck due to watching those tutorials, but i can't prevent myself from getting into those bad positions. and i can't find a way to penetrate the enemy defenses even when i have a good position.

what i need is some very dumbed-down Chess books. i need some lowest common denominator stuff because Waitzkin ain't doing me any good.

so:

1.can any of you recommend the titles and authors of good Chess books that are extremely dumbed-down and which explain how to achieve good openings, in-depth? i don't just want generalized principles, i want deep explanations

2. ditto that for pawn structures. how to build a good one for myself in every game, and how to penetrate the enemy pawn structure. i very badly need this knowledge, and told in a dumbed-down, specific way.

3. what is the correct way to counter a guy who immediately attacks with just his knights? i am not sure if this question is too general to answer or not, if it is then disregard it. but i'm pretty peeved cuz i just tried to control the center, yet i got massacred by a guy using just two knights vs. me. he moved his own pawns very little. eventually he moved two up one spot just to get his Bishops out, but that's it. he didn't even try to take the center yet he still obliterated me. yet Waitzkin says taking the center is always what you should do. so i'm confused.

[Adrian II]

Navaros, I would have a totally different piece of advice.

If you want to really learn the basics (and they are a prerequisite if you even want to understand grand master chess games, let alone analyse them) I would recommend that you forget all about your computer.

Go out to a second-hand bookshop and buy a load of (English-translated) old Russian chess books, preferably introductory courses for Opening, Middle Game and End Game. Over the years the Russians (Soviets) have produced scores of EXCELLENT chess books containing theoretical outlines of all the basic principles, special "learning problems" and examples from master and grand master games for further study. Look for books by M. Blokh, M. Pozharski and such.

EDIT These books are good precisely because they start with the basic principles and show you a hundred ways in which they apply, what the advantage is by turn 10 or 15 of applying a certain principle on turn 6. So they give the in-depth explanations that you require. They tell you why it is good to cover a pawn with a castle on, say, turn 7 so you can reap the benefits on turn 25. They explain what an attack actually is, what good defence really means, what the use of a sacrifice is. I used four or five of these books to teach myself when I was at school and later as a student, I enjoyed the puzzles no end, and it was great to be able to actually apply that knowledge in games. Oh, the beauty of a good chess combination... END OF EDIT.

Now buy a nice old-fashioned wooden chess board and rather large, simple wooden pieces. Nothing shiny, because it tires your eyes. Mount the pieces on little sheets of velvet if they don't come with them. Install yourself in a quiet corner with one light directed at the board and some good secondary light. Sit in a comfortable chair and don't forget to put tea or coffee within reach. Disconnect your phone.

Enjoy. :bow:

[Voigtkampf]

How could I miss this topic? Haven't been around Arena for a while… Too much work to do.

I thought I was the local chess fanatic. Not too good in it any more, I used to roar and rampage when I was a youngster, now I am mere average with few bright moments.

Play against me under this very nick on GameKnot (http://gameknot.com/). Its free.

[Adrian II]

Play against me under this very nick on GameKnot (http://gameknot.com/). Its free.I just visited the place, it looks like a relaxed site for someone like me who hasn't touched a piece for quite some time. Thanks for the tip, Voigtkampf. I may look for a game there come January, if so I'll use my .org nick. :charge:

[Voigtkampf]

It is a very relaxing place indeed. I would be honored to try myself against you, Adrian! :bow: Find me under this very same nick on the GameKnot.

[ah_dut]

When are you available for a game VK?

[Voigtkampf]

All the time. :duel:

[ah_dut]

Can I play you considering my rating? I can't see any game with your name on it...

[Al Shama'ar]

KE

when's this tournament gonna start?

come on guys, sign up.

Al

PS: ...and gals (oops!)

[King Edward]

I need to spend some time Looking round for an decent site for us to use, Ideally a free one that we can all sign up on using our .org names so as to not get confused with whos who, Im still a little busy for the next week or so as I'm of the island but when I'm back I'll start getting the ball rolling.

In the mean time it would be very helpful for anyone interested in playing leave any suggestions for anything to do with the tournament they have in this thread, and once we have a format we will advertise wider round the .org for competitors.

thanks in advance for your suggestions/help.
KE

[nokhor]

i'l play. $5 per piece captured right? ~;) i've never been to this gameknot, but if people from here are already playing there, we could try to meet there at specific times in an room we could name 'the org' if we can create our own rooms in there.

[Kommodus]

Can I play you considering my rating? I can't see any game with your name on it...

You can challenge people specifically, and then it's up to them whether or not to accept the challenge. People usually try to play others who are close to them in ratings, though.

BTW, my screen name on Gameknot is "blunderqueenagain." Because I do. A lot (when I'm playing blitz chess). :dunce:

I've been working chess puzzles on chessgames.com to improve my game, and it's been working, somewhat. On Gameknot, I play primarily blitz chess, because I like fast-paced, exciting games, but I play the occasional regular game as well.