View Full Version : what is the difference between a katana and a sword?
oldwarhorse
04-05-2002, 03:17
from what i understand the katana was made of wood while the sword was made of steel.
but not sure what the katana was used for?
anyone have more info on this?
DeathOnaPaleHorse
04-05-2002, 03:40
Its like the difference between apples and fruit. A katana is a type of sword, and it is definately not made of wood, but metal. A katana is perhaps the most perfect edged weapon ever. Samurai wore the katana as a mark of their place in society.
oldwarhorse
04-05-2002, 03:45
well then what are those sword like things made of wood?
The wooden swords are called "bokken" and made for training purposes. Quite a lot of martial arts include bokken training, for instance Aikido (i.e. Aiki-ken) and kempo. Kendo is a bit different for several reasons, most obvious of all is that here the "swords" are made out of bamboo instead of wood.
[This message has been edited by Cheetah (edited 04-04-2002).]
No no no! You got it all wrong!
A 'sword' is a fresh blade that has never been used.
A 'katana' is a blade that has tasted blood.
A 'Ramen Noodle' is a blade that has been soaked in blood so long that the blood and death are mixed into the steel creating an unearthly alloy...
A 'Ramen Noodle' is also just a noodle. Good eats!
Thus, a 'Ramen Noodle', when referring to a sword, is a blade that feasts off the living.
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/rolleyes.gif
Kraellin
04-06-2002, 03:49
with vanya's 'colorful' statements aside ;)... a katana was a special sword. it was extremely strong, flexible and sharp. it would hold its edge much better than most. it could hew bone quite easily. the secret, or at least one of them, was that the steel in the manufacturing process was folded over and over again upon itself. a 'common' katana would have at least 200 folds, some had as many as a million. this effectively amounted to a sword that was like 200, or however many folds it had, separate swords all banded together, each being incredibly thin. this is what gave it its flexibility and strength and why it could hold an edge so well; it takes much longer to dull 200 swords than it does one.
oddly, vanya's statements come very close to one part of the katana's 'mysticism'. katana's were often considered 'good' or 'evil', depending on how they were used. they were said to take on the characteristics of the owner and how he utilized them. katana's were also often considered to be an extension of the owner's arm; a part of his body.
and as an interesting aside, most samurai were also buddhist. buddhism is one of the most peaceful religions and this would tend to set up a conflict within the samurai himself. on the one hand he was a peaceful buddhist and on the other he was a fierce warrior. finding a balance between the two was often often a difficult task. this was often expressed by saying that one's karma at being a samurai was to be cursed to being a samurai in one's next life....or something like that.
K.
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The only absolute is that there are no absolutes.
Toda Nebuchadnezzar
04-06-2002, 04:08
As said before Katana's were a type of sword typically noted for being the best the world has ever seen. This is because of the way the were produced.
For the Europeans among us, Spanish steel is said to be the best of Europe and so on but a Katana could cut a spanish sword in half with ease. "Like a hot knife through butter"
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He is the Messiah
No i'm not the Messiah
Only the true Messiah would deny it.
Alright then I am the Messiah.
HE IS THE MESSIAH HOORAY!!!
Quote Originally posted by Toda Nebuchadnezzar:
..."Like a hot knife through butter"...
[/QUOTE]
A hot knife, when thrust into a block of frozen butter, will still experience resistance despite its nature.
BakaGaijin
04-06-2002, 11:39
What about a cold knife through hot butter?
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"If your soul is imperfect, living will be difficult." -- Ryo Hayabusa, DOA2
"Hey, why are the enemy throwing their cookware at us?" *KABOOM* -- Thunderbomber sneak attack!
GlobalCrills
04-06-2002, 16:40
Shorter blade longer grip?
The Katana is the best hand to hand weapon ever constructed. Here is an extract from the Way of the Daimyo:
Quote
Samurai were the only people allowed to carry two swords, a pair called the daisho, (the "long and short") as a badge of their unique warrior status. These two weapons, the long katana and the shorter wakizashi, were worn together although rarely used as a pair of weapons in combat. Miyamoto Musashi, the sword-saint and writer of the best-known book on swordsmanship, A Book of Five Rings, was unusual in that his "Two Heavens" fighting style did use two swords at the same time. One other sword is worth mentioning at this point, the no dachi. These enormous two-handed weapons were only ever used on foot.
The samurai used the katana to defend as well as attack and as a result never adopted shields, unlike the knights of Europe. They never needed to, because of the superb metalwork in the katana was good enough to act in both capacities.
A samurai sword was carefully constructed out of many layers of steel and iron. The two would be hammered out and folded over many times to produce a "sandwich" of many layers. Each repeated forging doubled the number of layers of metal in a sword, in some cases 2²º — 4,194,304 — layers of metal would be the result. The maximum number of folds recorded is some 2³º (or 10,736,461,824!) layers of forged metal. This gave the sword enormous strength when the iron and steel were welded together. The iron at the sides and back edge gave flexibility to the blade, while the steel core could be hardened to make a perfect edge.
The final process in the forging was particularly clever. The blade was coated with clay built up to a different thickness across the blade: thin at the cutting edge and thick towards the back. When the sword — in its clay overcoat — was heated and then quenched, it cooled at different speeds and the metal crystals in each part in the blade ended up as different sizes. They were large where the clay had been thick, which meant that they were flexible, but small at the cutting edge, so they would form a hard edge that could be sharpened. Once the sword blade was polished, the change from the softer steel and the harder edge could show up as the yakiba, a line that resembles a breaking wave. Once the blade had been signed by the smith and hilt and guard fitted, the sword was ready for use.
The result of all of this was a sword that could cut a man in two — literally. Occasionally condemned criminals were used to test new swords, but it was more common to use a bundle of rushes and bamboo or to use corpses. Some swords had details of their testing carved into the tang (the piece of the sword inside the hilt).
Thanks to the resilience of such a blade, a samurai could block and turn blows that would have shattered any ordinary steel weapon. Its razor sharp edge gave him the ability to cut through an opponent right down to the bone. These two contrasting qualities were the result of the skills and experience that Japanese sword smiths had accumulated over centuries. No other sword, even the famous blades from Toledo in Spain, ever equalled these Japanese weapons. The katana is still probably the best hand-to-hand weapon ever produced.
A sword became the "soul of samurai" who carried it and many became family heirlooms. As late as the Second World War some officers had their family blades placed in army-issue fittings then carried them into action. Officers’ swords that were carried home by Allied soldiers as war souvenirs from Pacific battlefields are still occasionally identified as ancient, incredibly valuable blades even today.
[/QUOTE]
And finally here is a pic of a katana:
http://www.bytheblade.net/images/products/lrg/p1070lg.jpg
Picture from ByTheBlade.Com (http://www.bytheblade.com)
Tera
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Proud member of Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.totalwar.org/kenchikuka).
evil is within us... http://www.totalwar.org/site/emomalta.gif
[This message has been edited by Terazawa Tokugawa (edited 04-07-2002).]
[This message has been edited by Terazawa Tokugawa (edited 04-07-2002).]
that looks really good,i wish i had one
You can buy one from an auction (ebay) or brand new from many websites around. They're quite cheap, most of them are ornamental of course; a true warfare katana would cost much much more...
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Proud member of Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.totalwar.org/kenchikuka).
evil is within us... http://www.totalwar.org/site/emomalta.gif
Japanese History Forum (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/ubb/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&number=3&SUBMIT=Go). Thread moved.
hmm...what would i use a kantana for....ahha for chopping peoples heads off.wouldnt it be great to find excalibar
NagatsukaShumi
04-07-2002, 08:19
I'm currently attempting to buy some replica armour and swords from the Sengoku Jidai era, pretty easy to find
tera.
while being no expert on Japanese blades, I do know that sugata (shape/curvature) is a quality to look for. what kind of katana is that.? it looks... well.... meh, i won't say it.
i prefer the bizen tachis.. now that, is a sword!
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Chaos is born from order.
Cowardice is born from bravery.
Weakness is born from strength.
-Sun Tzu
The Katana doesn't have the curvature of a scimitar of course but it does have a slight curve I bet. And that sword in the pic does have a slight curvature.
Btw remember that katanas you'll find today on the market are quite all ornamental stuff, things to stick to walls not to slash people with. :D A true katana can't be handled by the blade or you prolly would not find your hand...
Probably a better representation:
http://www.ste-m.clara.net/images/jitsu/katana.gif
T.
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Proud member of Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.totalwar.org/kenchikuka).
evil is within us... http://www.totalwar.org/site/emomalta.gif
whhoooaaa...thats a nice piece of equipment,if only i had one of those!!
NagatsukaShumi
04-07-2002, 19:03
Damn my mass slaughter plan ruined! I'll have to stick to having it on my wall
*Growls in the corner of the room scrunched up in a ball*
lol Shumi http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
I'm sorry I ruined your evil plans http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif
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Proud member of Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.totalwar.org/kenchikuka).
evil is within us... http://www.totalwar.org/site/emomalta.gif
much better! however, it is in a tachi koshirae, thus it is probably a tachi and not a katana. I think that sometimes tachis were sometimes kept in katana koshirae but rarely the other way around
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Chaos is born from order.
Cowardice is born from bravery.
Weakness is born from strength.
-Sun Tzu
One of the coolest things about the katana manufacture process is that the curvature of the blade is allmost 100% natural.
When the the steel is cooled for the last time the 2 types of steel that form it contract in diferent quantities guiving the blade it´s natural curved shape.
Class dismissed for the day!!! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
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"yama yama tani tani"- Oda Nobunaga.
on every montain and in every valley!
Another tidbit:
When making the blade, aside from making it from thousands of layers (as stated in previous post), they also had a unique way of tempering the blade.
The problem with all non-japanese swords all over the world was that the blades would either break in combat or they would bend. Another big issue was the sharpness, the metal would easily chip off the edge, making the blade be dull or require constant sharpening (until it was sharpened so many times it ate away the blade!).
All these issues were the result of the heating/banging/cooling while the blade was forged. Other cultures would use X quality metal (the highest they could get) and heat it/cool it as the blade was made. Damascus steel blades were done this way, and it was only the very high quality of the metal that made them so good.
The Japanese on the other hand, took a different (and very complex) approach to this, which completely solved all these issues.
Japanese blades would be forged by using different quality metals in each layer of the blade and cooling/heating them in different ways. One layer would be high quality metal which would be heated, banged and then allowed to cool off by itself (not using water to douse it), then another layer would be of low or medium quality of metal (sometimes different alloys of the same metal were used too), heated, banged and cooled in water, the next layer would be HQ metal again, etc etc etc and so on.
The result would be a blade which would not bend in combat because the "bendable" metal layers of the blade were sandwiched between "non-bendable" layers. A blade which would not break because it had bendable layers of metal sandwiched between the breakable metal layers. A blade whose edge was so incredibly tensile and sharp it could cut through flesh and bone as if it was butter.
The more layers a blade had, the better it was.
And this was done with metals which did not rival damascus steel. Near the last years of nobunaga, if memory serves me right, a daimyio from Kyushu had a sword made from imported damascus steel and the highest quality japanese metals... the sword it is said, was so impressive people believed it had an evil kami brought by the foreigners. It was thrown into the sea by one of the descendants of the Daimyio so the story goes.
i would say that the lightness of a sword would effect the streght of it,a big massive heavy sword will do so much but if you went to kill someone you could miss.that is why i think a light sword could be useful.
Tachikaze
04-09-2002, 01:07
Really, to answer the original question simply: "sword" is English and "katana" is Japanese.
Both "katana" and "tachi" are used by Japanese as general words for sword. "Tachi" predates "katana" and can be used specifically for an earlier (e.g. the Heian Period) style of sword that has a pronounced curve (including the grip) and was worn edge-down. "Katana" is used specifically for a later design (those of Sengoku are katana) that has a noticably straighter blade, a longer straight grip, and a more squared-off tip. Katana were worn edge-up.
Thus, Yoshitsune used a tachi and Musashi used a katana.
By the way, "tachi" is the root of the word "nodachi".
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Asante sana
Squashed banana
Wewe nugu
Mimi apana
The Tachi was commonly used by mounted samurai too. It was just a little bit longer and more curved than a katana. As Tach said the nodachi is a further development of the tachi, but longer and heavier.
The kodachi was a shorter tachi.
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Proud member of Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.totalwar.org/kenchikuka).
evil is within us... http://www.totalwar.org/site/emomalta.gif
and also, the tachi blade is curved then straightens.
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Chaos is born from order.
Cowardice is born from bravery.
Weakness is born from strength.
-Sun Tzu
Toda Nebuchadnezzar
04-10-2002, 01:29
Me and Tera have been looking specifically for a No Dachi sword either on an auction site or specially made but cannot find anything.
Any ideas. Plus ornamental is just as good as useable. (infact ornamental is prolly better because it is cheaper but it doesnt bother me, so long as I can find one to purchase! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif)
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He is the Messiah
No i'm not the Messiah
Only the true Messiah would deny it.
Alright then I am the Messiah.
HE IS THE MESSIAH HOORAY!!!
Tachikaze
04-10-2002, 02:08
In San Diego, it's common to find ornamental Japanese swords in cutlery shops. No-dachi are rare, but I have seen them occasionally over the years.
Toda:
http://www.samuraisword.com
you can buy authentic and replicas there.. as well as armour and other nifty stuff.
Just search YAHOO for japanese swords and youll get tons of hits of shops.
Hanwei makes an assortment of oriental replica swords. This includes several katanas, and an assortment of Chinese weapons as well. Most of these appear to be authentic in construction, some boasting 900+ folds in the steel. (They also make some fantasy swords as well...)
However, this is reflected in the fact that the price of a folded-steel sword is over $1000 USD, as opposed to 'wall ornaments' which cost as low as $100-200 USD.
This site has excerpts from their catalogue, and decent pricing...though I HAVE NOT dealt with them.
http://www.by-the-sword.com/orient2.html
Oh, and for those of you looking for a Naginata...check out the bottom of this page...
http://www.by-the-sword.com/orient3.html
Edit...
Actually, this site shows close-ups of the blades.. http://www.swordarmory.com/katanas/1001gt.htm http://www.swordarmory.com/katanas/1204gt.htm
[This message has been edited by Jaguara (edited 04-11-2002).]
RageMonsta
04-15-2002, 07:17
Tera stole my sword.....tell the truth you got that from the old Rage web site your dodgy geezer you.....
going back to the 'wooden' issue....and unless somebody else has mentioned this....the greatest 'swordsman' ever in Japan...not bothering to look for his name...but will if asked...used a wooden sword in the end and smashed heads in with it..forget the weapon check out the user for the greatest 'blade' you can find....so nerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr :P
Hirosito
04-18-2002, 01:21
how much do proper high quality combat katanas approx. cost?
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Hirosito Mori
Gentile or Jew
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.
How can I go to the Rage website if we don't have a "dead clans" section on Org? Bwahahahaaaa...
A real combat katana would cost thousands mate. It is the best hand to hand weapon ever.
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Proud member of Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.totalwar.org/kenchikuka).
evil is within us... http://www.totalwar.org/site/emomalta.gif
nah, the best hand to hand weapon ever made is a tax bill.
brrrrr
Tachikaze
04-18-2002, 03:07
For fighting an unarmored opponent, I think I'd rather have a high-quality rapier than a katana. It's quicker. Against a heavily-armored European knight, I might choose a big mace or 2-handed sword. There is no "best weapon". Weapons are suited to their purpose.
Papewaio
04-18-2002, 08:21
Two bricks made out of enriched uranium each at about 70% of critical mass then clapped together would be pretty definite winner.
Of course there other elements that all you'd need are two pieces the size of your thumb that could take out a city block.
Hirosito
04-19-2002, 00:57
how many thousands? and i suppose you are talking about one made today rather than an original.
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Hirosito Mori
Gentile or Jew
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.
Quote Originally posted by Hirosito:
how many thousands? and i suppose you are talking about one made today rather than an original.
[/QUOTE]
I already posted links to a couple of websites that sell replica, reenactment and competition blades.
A folded steel Katana from Hanwei (Chen Chao-Po, Paul Chen) with 900-1000 folds will cost anywhere from $900-1250USD - depending on the dealer (perhaps even more from a local shop).
Specialized Competition blades can cost $2000USD and up. Like anything else, there is no real ceiling here...
For antique swords...well, that depends on the age, condition, quality and historical significance of the blade. Most that are available seem to be from the WW2 era. If you could find one from Sengoku Judei, then I think you could probably trade it for a house on San Diego bay! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
Japan considers almost all swords from before the meiji to be national treasures. Just think how much they would pay for one of them if you managed to "find" one in your gramp's attic.
I have heard rumours of true medieval Claymores going for well over a million, but perhaps one of our English history buffs would be able to shed light to that (yes you Catiline http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif)
btw folks.
all swords made during WW2 are seen only as illegal weapons in nihon and are destroyed when they are found...
my advice: don't try and bring one into the country
ps.. there is evidence that a small number of blades were forged traditionally during this period , this would be indicated by a special stamp on the nakago.
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Chaos is born from order.
Cowardice is born from bravery.
Weakness is born from strength.
-Sun Tzu
Hirosito
04-20-2002, 18:42
cheers jaguara, that means i'll wait till i am really rich and buy a really expensive one.
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Hirosito Mori
Gentile or Jew
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.
Probably nobody in this forum will be alive when you will savour your ambitions Hiro... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
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Proud member of Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.totalwar.org/kenchikuka).
evil is within us... http://www.totalwar.org/site/emomalta.gif
Hirosito
04-24-2002, 22:20
cheers mate...oh i dunno i think if do everything to plan i might have the odd £10000 to spend on a nice sword
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Hirosito Mori
Gentile or Jew
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.
Lol Hir. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
If I was rich I would set up a fund to abolish all websites except TotalWar.Org (and some good porn ones http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif) and I would hail Tokugawa Ieyasu as vice-God.
Tera.
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Proud member of Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.totalwar.org/kenchikuka).
evil is within us... http://www.totalwar.org/site/emomalta.gif
Quote Originally posted by Terazawa Tokugawa:
If I was rich I would set up a fund to abolish all websites except TotalWar.Org (and some good porn ones http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif) and I would hail Tokugawa Ieyasu as vice-God.
[/QUOTE]
Coinsidering your saving only porn sites from abolishment...I guess that would mean you would hail Tokugawa as a vice-God, and yourself as a God of vice!
I see Jaguara is bright... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
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Proud member of Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.totalwar.org/kenchikuka).
evil is within us... http://www.totalwar.org/site/emomalta.gif
A friend of my dad's has offerred to show me his collection of Japanese swords this weekend. He has alot of them, one of which is 700 years old.
Hirosito
04-25-2002, 23:53
show off http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif ...good on you watch your fingers so that you don't cut yourself.
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Hirosito Mori
Gentile or Jew
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.
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