Hesitating Chariots

[Smaug-V]

Hi all
I have some questions about chariots. Ive completed the game as the julii on medium-medium and decided to try my hand as the egyptians, on medium-hard. Im doing quite well and am enjoying the change from playing as a roman army. But the chariots are being a bit frustrating. They have a tendency to, when order to charge an enemy, stop just short of it. Sometimes they even walk one or two at a time towards the enemy to be massacred. This even happens when im chasing routing troops, and im having no such problems with the nile and other types of cavalry. Is this an AI problem, or am i missing something important?
Any assistance would be appreciated

Smaug

[ElGuapo]

I've noticed this too. I tried making the chariot just go "through" the units (i.e. click somewhere on the other side of them). This makes them go through the formation, but does not seem to hurt the ememy at all. It simply knocks them down and they get back up again. I chased a fleeing group all over the map for 10 minutes and was able to kill about 5 of them.

I've kinda of decided, unless I see otherwise, that chariots are bugged and worthless, expect archer chariots, for their arrows. I'll be disbanding them and sticking with calvalry for now.

~:confused:

[Watchman]

I noticed the same oddity a while ago. I tried changing the chariots' "charge distance" attribute (ie. so they'd start the "attack run" farther away and build up speed), but that didn't seem to have any real effect.

However, I also noticed the chariots charged just fine if you just clicked the enemy once, so they'd trot most of the way and only speed up for the last leg. It seemed to put them off a bit if they needed to realign themselves with a moving enemy, though. Deeper formations seemed to be less prone to this.

[Zorn]

True, charriots don`t harm infantery very much.
They can rout them pretty fast however.

But give them a try against cavallery. You will be amazed.

[Watchman]

Spoiler: I've seen a routing chariot do a number on General's Bodyguard cavalry. *shudder* Think about it.

[Cardinal]

Remember, chariots were pretty much obsolete as a war machine during roman times.

Let the primitives have their chariots; us others - we stick to cavalry :charge:

[Byzantine Prince]

The romans used chariots as well. Chariots are horrifying war machines. If properly handled a chariot could cut down a whole unit.

[Smaug-V]

Sometimes they are devastatingly effective, and they are pretty good against cavalry, but they are a bit erratic. Im sure you guys know what its like when a perfectly timed a maneuvre is cocked up by some dodgy AI. But ill give the "click once" thing a try. Cheers guys.

Smaug

[Asimov]

I haven't faced or used chariots in games yet, but it seems to me that a unit of discplined heavy infantry is not a very good target to be charged with chariots, considering chariots nominal armor value. Cavalry charges against infantry would only success if there is any gaps, however, staright forward cavalry battles emphasied on mobility and speed, which chariots outrun your usual cavalry.

[Didz]

DONT DO IT

The image of massed chariots with scythed wheels mowing down hordes of infantry like manic lawnmowers is a rubbish idea put about by Universal Studio's to sell more crap historical films.

Chariots serve two important battlefield functions only:

1) Mobile missile platform. They get archers and javelin men up close and personal quickly.

2) Personal Carrier: They get troops into and out of battle rapidly.

If you are using them for anything else then its quite right that they don't work. I am well into my Egyptian Campaign and have used chariots with great success but not in melee combat. Send them around the enemies flanks to harrass their reserves hover just out of reach of their infantry and cut them down with arrows but keep them out of close combat.

Even chasing down fleeing troops is a waste of time, I find they knock them over repeatedly but rarely kill them. Its much better to send in the desert cavalry.

[Didz]

The romans used chariots as well. Chariots are horrifying war machines. If properly handled a chariot could cut down a whole unit.

As far as I am aware the Romans kept chariots exactly where they belonged, in the entertainment industry where they were used for racing. I have never read of a Roman chariot being used on a battlefield.

[Smaug-V]

Well its not as if im using them to charge headlong into a phalanx of spears. I try and use them against the back or maybe sides of an infantry formation. This is how I use my cavalry, and the chariots are described as "heavy cavalry". When they actually make contact they are pretty much as effectives as your standard cavalry, but getting them to charge is the problem. Whether its accurate or not, I think its clear that the developers meant for them to be used as heavy cavalry. Otherwise Egyptian armies wouldnt be recieving ANY heavy cavalry until they get an elite cavalry stables and can build nile cavalry.

Smaug

[Didz]

I agree there are some obvious detection problems in RTW which did not exist in the earlier games. This sometimes manifests itself as you describe during the final stages of combat but in fact its most noticeable during the pursuit of broken troops, when for some reason the pursuers frequently fail to detect and close with the fleeing enemy and instead begin to walk alongside them.

However, that said because of my background in serious wargaming I have much more tolerance than some for troops refusing or hestitating to close in hand to hand combat as most serious wargame rules have a test which simulates this hestitation. I just see it as the natural reaction of two units about to clash in bloody combat but hoping to delay the critical moment until some slight advantage can be gained.

The classic example is the Phalanx which I think is modelled beautifully in RTW. Quite correctly the pikemen do not drive hard into their enemy but actually stop just short of their lines and then if you watch you can see the front line men jabbing forward with their pikes to try and spear their opponents.

This makes perfect sense to me, as if you have a 18' pike the last thing you want to do is get so close to your enemy that you can smell the garlic on his breath. By allowing my phalanx units the freedom to do this, I actually get no real problems with them on the battlefield whereas I suspect those with less patience who try to minic the Universal Studio's vision of phalanx warfare complain that their phalanx's loose cohesion and the men start raising their weapons and becoming disorganised. Perfectly understandable in real world terms as if the point of your pike passes beyond the enemy front rank then in effect you are at a very real risk and to quote one officer at Waterloo "once you are past their point its just like killing rabbits". Under such circumstances a pikeman would have no choice but to drop his pike and resort to sword or dagger for self-defence, as the French Lancers had to at Waterloo.

It also follows that driving your pike hard into an enemy soldier is the classic mistake which will inevitably lead to you being disarmed as the impaled body of your enemy drags the point of your weapon to the ground and leaves you exposed. If mounted on a horse this can be even more dangerous and poorly trained lancers frequently drove their weapons to hard into their enemies only to be catapulted over their own horses head like a pole vaulter or having their wrist snap like a twig by the impact.

Thus a short jabbing technique as used by the French Lancers makes perfect sense, allowing you to inflict repeated wounds on the enemy whilst keeping yourself well beyond his reach. Their are reports of some infantry in the squares at Waterloo suffering 10 to 20 lance wounds before finally collapsing as the lancers trotted up to their squares and jabbed at them.