Warrior Monk\'s POWER ! (???)

[Draksen]

With the Battle Generator I have tested
all possible units against warrior monks...
Here are the results :

left to right :
Unit mame, kill% for monks, kill% for the unit, Damage/cycle WM, Damage/cycle unit

YA 95 20 82 17 (47 monks alive)
YS 72 32 69 30 (33 monks alive)
ND 85 65 56 43 (14 monks alive)
WM 65 65 50 50 (0 monks alive)
NG 55 30 64 35 (27 monks alive)
SA 85 30 73 26 (38 monks alive)
YS 67 42 61 38 (22 monks alive)
CA 75 35 68 31 (31 monks alive)
HC 50 45 52 47 (6 monks alive)

As you can see, only the HC and an other WM unit can almost destroy 1vs1 a monk unit...
(although the HC is supposed to be the ultimate anti-WM unit...an expensive one I think)

Of course there is a price factor : a WM unit's normal cost (non MORI) is 500 koku.
With the same price you can create 2 Yari Samurai units and one teppo and you will win, ok... but later in the game, when 50 % of Japan is yours, and when your annual income is 10,000 20,000 or 30,000 koku...
never mind the price !

I have read a lot about "hordes" (Hojo...)
with cavalry units, or spearmen...

And what about a Warrior Monk Horde ?
How can it be stopped ?


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[Rob]

I have said this before and I will say it again: testing the effectiveness of units in 1v1 combat is pointless. 1v1 combat occurs extremely rarely in the game. Even when it does, there are many factors involved, including honour, morale and tiredness.

Those who play regularly online will have seen plenty of all-monk armies and will know that can often be easily beaten if countered correctly. I'm not sure about effectiveness in the single-player game - I have noticed that monks tend to do very well in auto-resolved battles.

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MizuRob Hojo
Honour to clan Takiyama

[Jackson]

Thanks for the test data. I find such tests very interesting.

While I am new to the game, and have only played one campaign (as Mori), I did wear out the demo before the game was ever released and played many downloaded scenarios, even creating a few for my own enjoyment (I’ve been busy playing Combat Mission since last June). I agree that high honor Warrior Monks are the scariest unit in the game when going into battle, but there do seem to be some very effective counters. The best, somewhat obviously, is raining arrows on their parade. WM’s only have an armor rating of 1. It’s their attack rating of 6 and morale rating of 12 which make them so devastating in H2H. Plus the fact that they scare the Buddha out of the enemy. See:
http://home.soneraplaza.nl/qn/prive/k.ypma/units.html

If I’m going to face a WM heavy force, I’ll bring 6 of my own WM, 6 SA, 2 YS, and 2 YC. This force changes slightly depending upon my Taisho unit and what’s available. If the AI throws an inordinate amount of WM at me, I’ll attrit them with archers, engage with YS, and then charge WM into the melee at oblique angles to force a rout (which ain’t easy against WM). Meanwhile, my YC are either charging his archers, or flanking the enemy WM. Bringing your best general to the dance and taking out the enemy Taisho helps too http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Don’t forget about upgrades, either. By the time I’m facing any serious WM threat I’ll have at least one armor upgrade, an honor increase for my own WM, and probably an attack upgrade as well. I haven’t tried on-line play yet, so I don’t know if upgrades are available in MP. I also doubt that a human opponent would leave his archers so vulnerable.

Sorry for rambling. I’m a newbie, so just ignore me.

[Hirosito]

no upgrades in MP
the archers: that depends who you're playing against

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Hirosito Mori

A warrior's wisdom is shown in the treating of his defeated opponent http://cgi.tripod.com/smilecwm/cgi-bin/s/owen/sid.gif

[Nelson]

Here's what Stephen Turnbull says about monks.

After quoting a manuscript description of combat between a fully armored monk and a mounted samurai, Turnbull writes "Battles involving warrior monks, however, are few and far between".

Later he says, "In conclusion, therefore, it can be seen the the warrior monks were at their most influential when dealing with superstitious courtiers or ignorant townsfolk. In disputes between temples their fighting skills came into their own, BUT WERE TO PROVE NO MATCH FOR THE SAMURAI".

The caps are my own emphasis. These quotes are from Samurai Warfare, page 42.

So why are monks so potent in Shogun you ask? Maybe it was images of David Caradine in in the old TV show "Kung Fu"! Who knows? Monks actualy wore armor, too, but not in the game. No sir.

The fact is, according to the developer's own history consultant, the values monks get in the game are right off the stable floor.

[This message has been edited by Nelson (edited 01-09-2001).]

[Jackson]

I guess it’s a play-balance issue. Basic units; counter units; super units; unit upgrades; building upgrades. It’s an awful lot like AOE, but without Age advancement. I’m not a student of this period of history, so I look at WM like fast, light and fearless little Indians, charging around the battlefield causing havoc and chaos. The fact that they also have the biggest punch in the game make them the top melee unit IMO. Their only weakness seems to be their lack of armor.

Hirosito, what did you mean by “the archers: that depends who you're playing against?” You seem to be saying that there is a way to negate the archer counter. Could you elaborate on this?

[Anssi Hakkinen]

Originally posted by Nelson:
Quote Later he says, "In conclusion, therefore, it can be seen the the warrior monks were at their most influential when dealing with superstitious courtiers or ignorant townsfolk. In disputes between temples their fighting skills came into their own, BUT WERE TO PROVE NO MATCH FOR THE SAMURAI".[/QUOTE]This may be just a reference to the fact that the WMs were, indeed, ultimately eclipsed and destroyed by the samurai. The Ikkô-Ikki of Ishiyama Hongan-ji put up a huge fight until Nobunaga was finally able to subdue them (using Portuguese teppô).

Unquestionably, the WMs are overdone in STW, but so are many other things.

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"Crystal clear, / Sharp and bright, / The sacred sword / Allows no opening / For evil to roost."
- Ueshiba Morihei O-Sensei

[Hirosito]

all i was saying is that if you play against me (ie bad player) perhaps i will leave my archers in a vunerable position- although nothing like the stupid stuff the AI sometimes does

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Hirosito Mori

A warrior's wisdom is shown in the treating of his defeated opponent http://cgi.tripod.com/smilecwm/cgi-bin/s/owen/sid.gif